SimCity 4 runs slow on big cities

[SC4BOY 21]

Thanks very much for your link! I found it very interesting. I was relieved it was ONE article about TWELVE packages.. (I somehow thought you meant 12 different labs doing the tests..that was why I was stunned..  LOL) I do note that his tests are for 32 bit OS with only 500MB disk, but it is still informative.

Did you by chance read among the comments this one:

tim March 6th, 2010 at 5:16 am comment 39

excellent report. I am using ImDisk as it is the only free one valid for xp64 (DataRAM & VSuite are 32b only) nb, ImDisk 1.2.4 – much faster now, 4k R/W = 425.7/409.9quote>

This rate is more than 30% faster than the fastest 32 bit rate shown in the tests.The 4k transfer rate (as you no doubt noticed) is the slowest..  you didn't state what conditions you were using on the test of your raid set.

The concept is far more applicable on 64bit systems (which is why I specified that in  my comments above) due to the addressability of massive amounts of memory. I forget how much memory can be addressed in 64 bit .. I know its a god-awful huge number [(2exp64)-1], but I haven't calculated it.. its academic anyways as the real limit is the mother board you select and the mem-stick capacity available, not the OS) 

BTW, just a note to Panda_Power: Did you notice this link? Now if you're convinced of the rarity of 4 or 6GB usage, how do you suppose that company can offer at least FIVE packages of TWENTY FOUR GB RAM? ... just sayin'

Just for information purposes, I plan to use a RAMdisk on my next system build.. which MAY happen this year, but probably early next year.. (and I plan to have an SSD too.. lol)

 

[Panda_Power 1]

Originally posted by: SC4BOYBTW, just a note to Panda_Power: Did you notice this link? Now if you're convinced of the rarity of 4 or 6GB usage, how do you suppose that company can offer at least FIVE packages of TWENTY FOUR GB RAM? ... just sayin' quote>

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Convinced of the rarity of people having 4 to 6GB of RAM in their systems? I have 6GB in mine and I think that's quite common nowadays. My mobo supports a max of 24GB too, but there's no way I could afford to get a 24GB pack and I don't think I'd want to even if I could because like I said, I'd rather save the money and get the additional space in an SSD instead.

Apologies if I've misunderstood what you meant...it's late here!

Just thought...did you mean 4 to 6GB usage in a RAMDisk? Yeah, I guess some people out there are buying those packages otherwise they wouldn't carry them. What amazes me is that if you click on one of them it says "max of 100 per customer"!! One pack is like $1000...100 packs....$100,000...are they serious!!

Does everyone who buys these packs of between 12GB and 24GB use the remaining RAM for a RAMDisk or are they running programs like video editing etc that actually need that much RAM?

 

[SC4BOY 21]

Originally posted by: Panda_Power

I have 6GB in mine and I think that's quite common nowadays. My mobo supports a max of 24GB too, but there's no way I could afford to get a 24GB pack and I don't think I'd want to even if I could because like I said, I'd rather save the money and get the additional space in an SSD instead.quote>

Hehe.. no I think we're on the same line.. btw you know 6GB will never used by your system, right? Yet you "want" it because its on the "price-desire" line for you.. My point was simply that the line is high and growing higher. You certainly will have enough RAM there to have a RAMdisk should you decide to play with one..

Just thought...did you mean 4 to 6GB usage in a RAMDisk? Yeah, I guess some people out there are buying those packages otherwise they wouldn't carry them. What amazes me is that if you click on one of them it says "max of 100 per customer"!! One pack is like $1000...100 packs....$100,000...are they serious!!quote>

haha, ya.. please limit your purchase  Yes I meant 4-6 in RAMdisk.. it logically follows.. if you watch your memory usage and it NEVER goes over 1 or 1.2GB and you say "SHEEZ.. I've got a lot extra".. what should you do with it? Nothing?  I'm always flabbergasted when I see people tell folk with some problem on 2GB systems tell them their problems would be solve if they "upped their memory"! I'd go out on a limb and say that will NEVER solve their problem.

Does everyone who buys these packs of between 12GB and 24GB use the remaining RAM for a RAMDisk or are they running programs like video editing etc that actually need that much RAM?quote>

Well of course I have no idea. Some probably buy it because they just "wanna have braggin' rights"..the same people who buy $800 cases designed by BMW..     a business might well make use of it very effectively in servers for data base processing, etc in apps that genuinely NEED it. My point was simply that virtually NO home user will ever use that kind of memory in normal applications.

 

[Panda_Power 1]

Thanks for all the info! I'll look more into RAMDisks for 64bit systems and have a play around with one....maybe try my Internet browser and see if I notice any difference.

It would be interesting to try SC4 on a RAMDisk, but with all my mods and the game itself, I'd probably have to use around 4GB just to be safe and then I'd be leaving myself with 2GB for my main system.....I know you say that's more than enough, but I'm not so sure with running 64bit Windows 7 and then other programs on top of that.

I know loading times would be greatly increased, but what I'd really love is something that would stop the game from lagging when you have full maps with loads of trees and animated props etc, which I guess takes us right back to the title of the topic!  

[SC4BOY 21]

Originally posted by: Panda_Power

I know loading times would be greatly increased, but what I'd really love is something that would stop the game from lagging when you have full maps with loads of trees and animated props etc, which I guess takes us right back to the title of the topic!quote>

Indeed full circle... and back to my point WAAAAY back in the thread.. I don't think any of these things we discussed will markedly alter your gameplay in that sense.. Faster processor speed (only one required) is the only way I know to get to faster SC4. And while this is good for SC4 it is simply not "where it's at" for mainstream processors.. if anything it's moving to slow-to-modest speeds (in the 2-3GHz range) and multi-processors.. the AMD six processor unit is already available while the Intel 6 and higher units are steaming through advanced development and prototype testing.

There are processors on the market which allow as high as 5GHz operation on air cooling, but they aren't "mainstream". Those same one's with active cooling can be whipped to over 6GHz. 

There is demand however as Intel just released "unlocked" Core2Dual and Core2Quad units at middle prices... (I7 dual for about $200 and I5 quad for about $350 by my recall.. they both were the "specials" at newegg just 2 days ago) Further the AMD .. i forget their current "buzzname" but their Dual 550 BE (Black Edition or BE is their code for "unlocked") is also in the 100-200 range. All of these will clock over 4Gig easily on air and should make marvelous SC4 machines 

You can spend a LOT of money (easily double) and get a lot of the "associated" functions such as rendering, loading, view changes, etc faster, but you can spend very low money and get a dang hot SC4 "play" machine that is very servicable on all but the most demanding MOMPG's..  As I have mentioned, there is no need for any but the most fundamental graphics processor unit.. one on a motherboard can be bought for about 10-20 bucks over the "non-onboard" version. This beats heck out of spending 150-400 for a "hot" version, and SC4 will never notice..

The 550 can be put into a very hot little machine for well under $500US if you exercise reasonable restraint.  

However all this aside, I still have my ear to the ground on folks who find better ways to use things like SSD's, Ramdisk, Packers, etc. I get excited when I hear people have an active exploration going. .

[Panda_Power 1]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Faster processor speed (only one required) is the only way I know to get to faster SC4.quote>

I think that was my first ever question on this forum! How can I get SC4 to use all of my 4 cores? How can I get it to use all 8 threads would be even better, but sadly, neither of those things are gonna happen.

My little i7 920 is oc'd to 4.2GHz and my game is set to play on just one core, but it's still not enough power to make the game run fluidly with full maps and everything going on. Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly playable, but it doesn't play perfectly....not my idea of perfectly anyway!

At the end of the day I guess we should just be thankful that a game that has stood the test of time so well as SC4 still plays as well as it does on modern-day systems. 

[SC4BOY 21]

Originally posted by: Panda_Power

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Faster processor speed (only one required) is the only way I know to get to faster SC4.quote>

I think that was my first ever question on this forum! How can I get SC4 to use all of my 4 cores? How can I get it to use all 8 threads would be even better, but sadly, neither of those things are gonna happen.quote>

You cannot.. it will not.

SC4 has the scheduler built into the code (single threaded) rather than handled by the hardware. Consequently an overwhelming part of what you are doing isn't even available for "passing off" to other processing threads. Your other processors may help you in handling background tasks going on while you are playing, but it won't help SC4 performance. I believe it also contains it's own interrupt handler as well, which explains why it behaves so rudely occasionally on faults and is so touchy sometimes about other things going on in the background.

My little i7 920 is oc'd to 4.2GHz and my game is set to play on just one core, but it's still not enough power to make the game run fluidly with full maps and everything going on. Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly playable, but it doesn't play perfectly....not my idea of perfectly anyway!

At the end of the day I guess we should just be thankful that a game that has stood the test of time so well as SC4 still plays as well as it does on modern-day systems. quote>

If you are running at 4.2GHz and still are complaining, I can only pity your view of others playing the game..

A 920 overclocked is about as close as you're going to get to an "SC4 machine" in todays environment. In that case you may as well proceed with your experiments with SSD's and RAMdisks in hopes of freeing you from your miserable existance. And you could of course go to active cooling and kick it up another GHz or maybe 2.

[Panda_Power 1]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

If you are running at 4.2GHz and still are complaining, I can only pity your view of others playing the game..

A 920 overclocked is about as close as you're going to get to an "SC4 machine" in todays environment. In that case you may as well proceed with your experiments with SSD's and RAMdisks in hopes of freeing you from your miserable existance. And you could of course go to active cooling and kick it up another GHz or maybe 2.

quote>

Haha....no, 4.2 is quite enough for me....I don't want to risk frying my chip just to get a bit of extra performance from SC4!

It'd probably be better if I stuck to big skyscraper cities because where I make my game lag is by making big rural cities with thousands of seasonal trees that are constantly being individually redrawn every time I zoom in and out!

OK...I'm not gonna complain anymore....

[z1 566]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

As I have mentioned, there is no need for any but the most fundamental graphics processor unit.. one on a motherboard can be bought for about 10-20 bucks over the "non-onboard" version. This beats heck out of spending 150-400 for a "hot" version, and SC4 will never notice.. quote>

I beg to differ.  Whenever I upgrade my graphics card, SC4 runs faster.  I'm currently running an ATI 4870 with 1 GB of onboard DDR3.

BTW, I have an i7 920 overclocked to 3.8 GHz, and from what I can tell, the biggest bottleneck in my game at this point is the CPU.  (I have 6 GB of memory.)  But I went from 6 years/hour in a city of 2 million on my last computer to 26 years/hour on this machine, so I'm not complaining.

[SC4BOY 21]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Originally posted by: z1

SSDs do wonders for this gamequote>

hmmm... I've seen limited info on this issue and none have shown significant advantage to SSD's. Perhaps you have done some studies

.... Both of these cases one would think could make major differences hypothetically, but I know of noone who has shown significant gain.quote>

Just as a followup on SSD performance vs a typical HD and including a fairly wide array of test app's and SSD packages (including RAID 0 configurations)

Those of you with an interest might want to check out the article on "Extreme Tech Build It".. a noted magazine on techy issues

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

So, if I might sum this up:

1. SC4 is a legacy program written in around 2003 from an earlier version.  It is a dinosaur with respect to its technology.  At the time, multi-threading on multiple processors just wasn't available in microcomputers.  So adding more than one CPU will only help your background tasks, not SC4.
2. SC4 believes everything fits in RAM.  Fortunately, in modern operating systems, we have virtual memory that pages all this memory demand unless you run out of allocated file space.  So when you exceed the real space allowed for the program, you start paging, and this will slow you down.  There are ways to make your paging files contiguous, but this is dependent on the operating system you are running, so consult your local geek.  Paging is not all that bad because the hottest pages that contain, for instance, the main loop will stay in memory because when a page is hit, the hardware resets its not used lately flag so that the page is not a candidate to be paged out (this is a simplified explanation).  Make sure you have enough allocated page file.  On XP I always forced it to 4GB which was the max.  I haven't used any M$ system since, so I don't know if you can have more.
3. When SC4 loads, it loads all your plugins from the two folders.  The first one is the one in the game directory and the next is the one in your Simcity 4 directory.  Try to make these as small as possible.  You can compress them with a .dat compactor program.  This is really important when you use BAT lots, as they ordinarily have three files.
4. Now, as your city grows, so do SC4's tables in memory.  Since these tables are getting bigger all the time, the time to update them starts to get to be really long.  There are simply more times through the for ... next loop.  The whole business is single threaded.  When (if) you run out of memory and paging space is when you get that annoying ACCESS DENIED crash to the desktop.  If your game is running ultra slow and you are getting funny graphics, save often.
5. So you can throw faster hardware at this game to improve performance.  The fastest CPU you can afford is good, but only one is needed.  A good, fast, modern GPU is not a bad idea, especially if it has a lot of memory.  But you must remember that SC4 doesn't understand GPU features such as anti-aliasing, so you have to set these either off or to application selected so the game can turn them off when it starts.  If your GPU is not recognized by the game, try and find some way to make it so.  Failing that, run with software rendering, which will make it slower.

I think that just about sums it up in general terms.  I hope this is helpful.

[SC4BOY 21]

1. Yes it is "legacy". Not sure what you are driving at here.

2. No, it never assumed all fits in RAM.. in fact it is GENEROUS in assuming you have a rather poorly spec'd system. It uses a LOT of swaps, partials, and delays.. plus don't forget that it is LOADED with "do loops" just waiting for stuff to happen... being only a single thread with no schedulers and no external interrupts as far as I can tell

3. Link to details of LOADING ORDER. Pretty much irrelevant to this discussion unless I don't understand your point.

4. Generally correct. But their "error detection" is also VERY POOR (remember also that it "expects" to run in a single program environment and any external "problem" causes nasty things like CTD's, failure to save, etc) Running in a "multi-tasking" environment is always added risk.. something we now expect to be "standard" in any program. It does NOT do well in a "task switching WINDOWED" mode, even though it can certainly be done.

5. Yes wrt the CPU, but wrt the GPU in fact it hardly matters.. it's a detriment if anything. The only thing which runs in the GPU as far as I can tell is the "special effects" like explosions, sprites, and animations. Clearly Maxis didn't expect much from the graphics cards. The best performance can be obtained from "weak" GPU's by today's standards... in fact a GREAT option is "on-board" GPU's (very cheap too as you can get this for about $20 over the cost of the basic mobo) Also the .sgr files should be properly edited to be sure your specific board/GPU is handled appropriately.

[KurtangleTN 10]

I realize this is about a year old now, but I have the same issue in both my large tile cities. Calendar just moves so slow, I have the NAM installed and I tried the large city traffic simulator and it didn't help.

Anyone have any advice?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well, I think you will find that this has been beaten to death.  The program appears to down exponentially as the city grows because the number of things to do is also growing at a natural rate of growth.  It is a simulation, and everything has to be visited.  Some visits take longer than others because there is more to do.  The more grids in the city have objects attached to them, the worse it gets.  Objects often have other objects, etc.  This all fits in the old ditty:

"Big fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em

"And these have yet smaller fleas, and so ad infinitum."

This is the reason there are no 8 x 8 cities.

The only speed up is a faster processor.

[tonyr 926]

Thanks Nonny Moose,This helps me as well.

So, if I might sum this up:

1. SC4 is a legacy program written in around 2003 from an earlier version. It is a dinosaur with respect to its technology. At the time, multi-threading on multiple processors just wasn't available in microcomputers. So adding more than one CPU will only help your background tasks, not SC4.
2. SC4 believes everything fits in RAM. Fortunately, in modern operating systems, we have virtual memory that pages all this memory demand unless you run out of allocated file space. So when you exceed the real space allowed for the program, you start paging, and this will slow you down. There are ways to make your paging files contiguous, but this is dependent on the operating system you are running, so consult your local geek. Paging is not all that bad because the hottest pages that contain, for instance, the main loop will stay in memory because when a page is hit, the hardware resets its not used lately flag so that the page is not a candidate to be paged out (this is a simplified explanation). Make sure you have enough allocated page file. On XP I always forced it to 4GB which was the max. I haven't used any M$ system since, so I don't know if you can have more.
3. When SC4 loads, it loads all your plugins from the two folders. The first one is the one in the game directory and the next is the one in your Simcity 4 directory. Try to make these as small as possible. You can compress them with a .dat compactor program. This is really important when you use BAT lots, as they ordinarily have three files.
4. Now, as your city grows, so do SC4's tables in memory. Since these tables are getting bigger all the time, the time to update them starts to get to be really long. There are simply more times through the for ... next loop. The whole business is single threaded. When (if) you run out of memory and paging space is when you get that annoying ACCESS DENIED crash to the desktop. If your game is running ultra slow and you are getting funny graphics, save often.
5. So you can throw faster hardware at this game to improve performance. The fastest CPU you can afford is good, but only one is needed. A good, fast, modern GPU is not a bad idea, especially if it has a lot of memory. But you must remember that SC4 doesn't understand GPU features such as anti-aliasing, so you have to set these either off or to application selected so the game can turn them off when it starts. If your GPU is not recognized by the game, try and find some way to make it so. Failing that, run with software rendering, which will make it slower.

I think that just about sums it up in general terms. I hope this is helpful.

  Edited March 15, 2011 by tonyr  

[kschmidt 6,223]

Weary, I struggle with a combination of similair performance problems. I5 8b 3.2 Ghz should adequete running smcity 4 with growables smoothly. Nothing of that rural span and sg -csx -  bls- maxis farmfields, dead slow; seasonal fields to blaim ?. Civics lke power and watr need to be Ok still a slow performance. This might be the same with the other growables and espacialy the sky scraper wich take  ages tho rise. Masters project I might see a similair problem with these lots. NAM 35 Traffic simulator so bad ? Less crowed or more gradual build advicable or use smaller city tiles instead. What is the obvious sollution ? More ram ? Graphics quality for the Bat´s has gone up. Growable residentials hard avod, afther some development of a city with certain balance they might be plopable, but often not abbandoned only the right circunstances to succeed. SimCity 4 now about 15 years old schould wthout doubt performe much better.  What can be done to resolve this issue !

Sincerely yours,

Kschmidt