World Affairs

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I really don't want to see the world burn, but like a forest fire, quarantines/blockades and controlled burns are the only viable ways to minimize losses, even with the biggest and best group of firefighters. Currently, the people in charge would rather throw money at the situation (and money burns) and use PR to spin things in a positive light.

Another accurate analogy is disease. The patient (people in charge) tried to remove a couple small skin tumors but did things sloppily and now the areas have gangrene and no amount of disinfectant is going to cure it now. They don't want to lose the toe but the infection has spread to the foot so now they have to face the decision of amputating the whole foot now, amputating the leg soon, or letting the whole body die. By the time the medical professionals (watch dogs, UN, etc) find the patient, they can either declare the patient incapacitated (medically insane, unfit to make decisions) and save the patient's life in a way contrary to the patient's desire or the patient will die (which happens with stubborn patients who have the power/authority to interfere while unfit to make decisions, by having lawyers siding with them to either make the bad decisions the patient wants or preventing the patient from being declared incapacitated).

  Edited October 2, 2015 by OcramSeattle  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Marco, what was the context of that last post?

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Monthly news binge (I only read the online news about once a month and I don't have TV), riots in Seattle, shootings in Oregon, and confirmation bias. I sincerely fear that human civilization as we know it will end in my lifetime and I'm NOT afraid of anything I perceive to be unlikely.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, I hope to be gone before the crash of the current capitalistic economy, but who knows?  At the rate things are accelerating, it could happen next week.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The Americans are so helpful in Afghanistan.

Blowing up an MSF Trauma Centre certainly doesn't do anything for the definition of military intelligence.  Proves once again it is an oxymoron.

The GPS coordinates of the hospital was known to all parties.  So what hot shot, hopped up pilot got his orders crossed up yet again?

[Sabretooth78 808]

I'm sure stuff like this happened in the European theatres of WWI & WWII (and other "classical/just" wars and conflicts), but it just didn't make the history books.  Or maybe not.  I get the impression it's a lot like people becoming stupider driving cars with umpteen million "safety" features that allow them to not pay attention to the task at hand (risk mitigation) - the more "automated" war becomes, the sloppier we are becoming with it.  George Carlin once referred to them as our "Nintendo pilots."

(I have the same impression with medical science as well. How many times does some new drug come out with side effects that seem worse than the condition being treated.  They can do some amazing things, but sometimes it just seems like guesswork in a white suit.)

Speaking of WWII, the trend that has emerged since then (as has also been expounded elsewhere ad nauseum) is what traces of which first became evident in Korea, really manifested itself in Vietnam and has become painfully obvious in Iraqghanistan is that we flat out stink at "nonconventional" warfare.  This has now been going on 60+ years with no end or apparent adaptation in sight.  Nor recognition of the fact that you can't fight an ideology, much less guerrillas, with tanks.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

One could cite several incidents in WW II.  The city of Dresden was carpet bombed into a fire storm.  Everyone was essentially incinerated, hospitals and all.  Pretty much the same thing happened to Hamburg.  I had a colleague who was a farmer's son living outside of Hamburg during this mess and he said they were going to market with their horse and cart one day and they went over a hill to find that Hamburg was simply not there anymore.

Those of us who are old enough, know a number of people who emigrated from Europe after the war, and the stories from them, if they would talk at all, are uniformly grim.  It seems that man's inhumanity to man knows no bounds.

Just remember that the winners write history.

[Sabretooth78 808]

And maybe we'll look back the same on these conflicts in 20-30 years.  Time will tell.  Another example which has already been mentioned is the bombings of Tokyo as well as the a-bombings in Japan.  "At least" in that circumstance you can perhaps find some strategy in that decision owing to the likely much greater collective loss of life that would have resulted from Operation Downfall.  I'm not sure you can extract that measure of justification (admittedly using the term loosely) out of that vs. the apparent singling out of a hospital.  Just as I'm sure Canada hasn't forgotten the infamous "friendly fire" attacks which seemed to happen all too often earlier in the Afghan conflict.  Back when there was serious debate going on in the US whether we were actually killing more friendlies than Taliban.

[raynev1 1,886]

Another big boo boo from both sides . Terrible none the less , maybe armed security should had been placed at the hospital . That would have been a better move from either side to prevent such an attack to have taken place . They had ground troops there , they should have secured such buildings first . It's not rocket science to protect as important a building as it was .

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Gentlemen --

I feel compelled to join in the discussion, though reluctant to rebut in detail.

 

With the dawn of the human race, came one individual who crawled out of a cave and picked up a rock and a stick, and invented armed conflict.

In ancient times, entire continents were decimated by waves of so-called barbarians that pushed millions of refugees before them like a flood. 

I am reasonably certain that if you questioned a peasant from The Hundred Years War, he would tell you that numerous armies (foreign as well as local) burned his house and crops, killed his only son, raped his wife and daughter, stole his horses, and carried off his livestock and anything else of any value. 

WWI saw the mass slaughter of millions in Europe for no particular gain, reasons we still can't explain, and left a mess that is still being cleaned up.

WWII brought us genocide, more bloodshed, and even more unspeakable brutality -- apparently out out a desire either for revenge, or domination. 

 

The dawn of the 21st Century has merely proven that no matter how much technology and "learning" we acquire, we are little different than that first caveman.  It doesn't matter what language you speak, or which flag you march beneath.  There is always one powerful individual that feels the need to acquire land, subjugate his neighbor, or enforce his religion or creed on someone else. 

Some enjoy this trend, while others are disgusted.  But one thing history teaches us, without fail, is that others will have to band together to stop the warmonger.  There will always be a warmonger that foolishly thinks he can push his luck -- the schoolyard bully on a global scale.  Munich 1938 saved us from nothing.  While opposition in 1938 could have saved us much.

Soldiers hate war more than anyone -- because they suffer it's horrors even while they inflict them on others.  But civilians have to decide whether or not their particular way of life is worth preserving. 

The "World" will not come to an end, and it will not change it's ways.  The only thing that really changes is the way you view it.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Seems there is now an alliance in the Middle East with Syria, Iraq, Russia, and Iran.  Three Islamic Shi'a countries, and a rather powerful, well-armed ally with almost unlimited resources. 

At one time the three Middle Eastern countries were part of the Ottoman Empire, which was a remnant of the Moorish Empire if a few hundred years later.  Historically, a lot of this problem with Islam can be traced back to the Spanish royalty (Ferdinand and Isabella) and the use of the Columbian treasure to finance the Inquisition's war against the Moorish outposts in the Iberian Peninsula.  For some reason, usually naked greed, the Church decided to wipe out Islam by pretending to be rescuing the Holy Land from the Infidel.  With few hiatuses and peace "treaties" this has been going on for something like 500+ years, but they are still at it.

The soldiers of Saladin showed just how tough the fighters for Islam can be when defending their homeland.  Lessons were not learned, even though many crusaders came home to lick their wounds, both physical and social.  A lot of this can be laid at the door of the then corrupt Vatican, but where has this centre of hatred moved now? 

There is nothing like waving a red flag in front of a bull to get something going, but this flag is blue and white and has a Star of David in in.  The Diaspora is now the decentralized root of this conflict because it finances this civil war in the eastern end of the Mediterranean.  This is no longer a land of milk and honey.  It is mostly desert due to climate changes over the last five millennia, and yet these stiff-necked sons of Abram of Ur continue to fight among themselves in what has got to be the longest sibling rivalry the world has ever seen.  The actions of one old Patriarch disinheriting his son, Ishmael, is the root of this evil.

The wind was sown over five thousand years ago, and now we get to reap the whirlwind.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Yo, Nonny --

There is much truth in what you say, and the consequences of many actions by many nations will ultimately have to be paid.

IRAQ:  Yes.  Obama's eagerness to withdraw from Iraq has left us in a pretty mess, hasn't it?  It would have been far better if Bush had refrained from meddling there in the first place.  Saddam was, indeed, an evil man -- but saying the world is better because he is no longer in it, does not make it so.  At least he kept Iraq under control and served as a brake on Iran in the region.  Removing our troops left the country severely divided, the politicians jockeying for religious control, and their army weak and divided into religious factions.  Of course the Iraqi President would turn to Iran for support.  After all, the Iraqi President (like most politicians) was only interested in the acquisition and retention of power.  And the Iranians were more than willing to acquire a puppet state -- it keeps them in "the game" and strengthens their hand enormously. 

IRAN:  By using their alliance with Iraq, the Iranians have now leveraged themselves into the Syrian conflict and are beginning to extend themselves into Lebanon.  The windfall of billions will allow them to finance their quasi wars in Yemen, Lebanon, Gaza, and Syria.  They have already pledged a billion dollars to Hezbola.  They are busily redefining the term "State Sponsored Terrorism".  I could write a book about the problems they are causing, and the ones they have in store for us.  It is my belief that it is their intention to re-establish the old Persian Empire.  Netanyahu thinks much the same, and is trying his best to wake up the rest of the world.  Unfortunately, just like 1938 -- everyone is pretending to be deaf.

SYRIA:  A bloody god-awful mess.  I'm beginning to think we need to get the UN to gather a coalition to raise an army and clean the place out.  But that would never come to pass.  Putin would veto it in the security counsel because it goes against his interests -- and the Chinese would veto because it would set a dangerous precedent to sanction the destruction of a less than popular regime.  As long as the conflict there continues, the Iranians have a sandbox to play in and Putin will continue to tweak Uncle Sam's nose.  We had Assad on the ropes -- running out of troops and territory.  The duration of the war was wearing him down.  And then along came Putin.

RUSSIA:  There will be trouble in Syria before it is over -- mark my words.  Putin is pushing his luck -- just like he did when they shot down the Malaysian airliner over the Ukraine.  Fighter pilots are fiesty fellas -- there will be trouble.  My hope is that he drains a sagging economy even further.  Oil prices continue to drop because the Saudis keep pumping in an effort to limit oil income to Russia and Iran.  We need to provide, or plan out, an energy program that will allow western Europe to have their energy while turning off the Russian spigot.  Even the Chinese could not make up the shortfall on his revenue stream -- their economy won't support such gratuitous spending.  And I'm waiting patiently for the body bags to start arriving in Moscow.  Eventually, even he will not be able to explain that to the Russian people.  It may be Putin's game -- but the bodies in those bags will be someone's father, brother, or son.  Putin is the schoolyard bully and he's playing Stalin's old game against the US.  He has, however, put a bit of a twist on it -- he's doing it KGB gangster style.  Once a KGB man -- always a KGB man.  He hates the US, and wants to put us out of the game.  He knows that if he gets us sidelined -- he'll own Europe lock, stock, and barrel.  He's sticking his nose into things that no other dictator has ever thought of, and he will continue to throw his weight around until someone stops him.

US:  This is the point where the rest of the world stands around like sheep and asks the Americans what they are going to do about it.  AND I'M TIRED OF HEARING IT!!!  Just because we are the big kid on the block doesn't mean we have to be the schoolyard referee.  People spend too much time blaming us for what we do and what we don't do.  My television set is bombarded daily with commercials soliciting for "wounded warrior" charities.  It's our young men coming home dead, wounded, and worse.  It needs to stop.  America needs to drop this modern version of "The White Man's Burden" and let the rest of the world learn to fight for itself.  If it turns out they haven't got the gravitas, then we will be forced to join THEIR coalition for a change. 

EUROPE:  Europe will eventually have to fight for their own soil -- Putin won't try to put troops on US soil.  He might be mad as a hatter, but he ain't stupid.  The British (much as I like them) are unpleasantly aware that they no longer have The Grand Fleet anchored at Scapa Flow.  The French are quietly and painfully aware that militarily, the last century has not been kind to them.  And the Germans, bless their little Teutonic hearts, learned their Russian lesson well.  Besides which, they are all interested in the flow of revenue from the sales to Russia of weapons, warships, technology, and chemicals.  Europe reminds me of the guys trapped in the room with a hungry wolf -- they all stand around hoping he will eat them last!

ISRAEL:  Netanyahu may be brash and stubborn, but he is dedicated to preserving the state of Israel.  And he minces no words!  It might have been better to found a new nation in some other location (Where, indeed?) -- but Europe was only too happy to allow the Jews to leave after WWII.  It was yet another mistake made in the Middle East on top of the mistakes made there in 1919.  And I am only too happy to point out that the US had no say in settling them in Palestine.  BUT -- if ever a people deserved their own state, it is the Jews.  I have many Jewish friends.  By and large, I find them hospital, educated, and wise.  Every country that has ever expelled the Jews has suffered from their absence.  They are an industrious and unifying people.  Their religion, unlike some others, teaches peace and harmony.  "What's not to like?"  One final point;  I have been to Dachau.  I cannot find the eloquence to discuss The Holocaust properly.  Let no one ever doubt that it happened.  And let no one ever doubt that it happened in many other countries -- though on a smaller scale down through the centuries.  You can thank the Vatican for that one, as well.  And it is my firm belief that America MUST and WILL defend Israel to its' last breath.  They deserve to live in a nation that does not try to exterminate them.  Britain will always be remembered as the nation that bore The Lionheart and Provo.  If America disappears from the face of the earth, we should be remembered as the one, unshakable, friend of Israel.  As an aside -- there have only been two instances in my life when the hair stood up on the back of my neck.  Dachau was one of them.

HISTORY:  If my history serves me well, Ferdinand and Isabella had to do without the riches of Columbia to complete "The Reconquista" of the Iberian Peninsula.  Granada was the last Moorish stronghold -- and it fell to the Spanish in 1492 -- a few months before Columbus sailed for the New World.

At the time the 1st Crusade was launched, the Moors in Spain were still a serious threat to France.  A couple day's march and the Moors would have been in Gascony.  The French warlords weren't happy with that and it scared Hell out of the Pope!  The answer was to launch a Holy War to retake Jerusalem.  It also allowed the Pope to rid himself of a bunch of warring knights that kept disturbing the peace in Europe.  The knights could go right on killing people -- as long as it was restricted to Infidels (Heathens).  This would allow Europe to recover from the depredations of constant warfare.  The knights and brawlers could go to the Holy Land and the peasants could harvest their crops and pay tithes to the Church.  It was a pretty neat trick -- if you don't count all the trouble it started.  And the trouble has been going on closer to 800 years.  That's something of a record, considering the English Monarchy can only claim descent back about 1,000 years!

Since 1945 we have been getting our nose bloodied and failing to learn that you cannot fight a guerilla war with an organized, mechanized, army.  Can't be done.  The British managed to win the Boer War, but it wasn't easy, and that was in 1900.  The French were fighting in Indochina the year after WWII ended.  Eisenhower wisely refused them help at Dien Bien Phu, thus avoiding US involvement there for nearly a decade.  Forty five years later Iraq has, yet again, proved that you can win the battles, but you will lose the war.

And -- you may well be right about Ismael.  But -- as someone said -- "it is, what it is".  Much like Ireland, peace will come when everyone is exhausted.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, there you are.  That's a pretty good review.  The gold of the Aztec's refurbished the Spanish treasury after they had blown their wad taking Granada.  That is where the Columbian voyages paid off.

The U.S. Hegemony now is very much like the British Raj a century ago.  However, the U.S. seems to have acquired territory only in the Pacific.  Can't really call that an empire, can we?  How to counter the Russian attempt at a break-out.  The best ploy is to give them the Ronnie treatment and just spend them into bankruptcy.  Shouldn't take more than another six or so decades which is what it took the last time.

The basic problem with polyglot Europe is that doing anything with them is like herding wildcats.  NATO can bark all it wants, but the Europeans will always find some way to duck or put the brakes on.  In America we have the advantage of a single language for the most part with enclaves of French and Spanish, both romance languages with roots similar to English.  We can get along.  Meanwhile, the Teutons don't speak to the Franks, and the Scandinavians and Slavs just ignore them.  Unless or until there is some world wide cataclysm that causes all these divisions to be swept away (WW III in Star Trek), there will be no happy solution.

As for the middle east, everyone should pull out and let them sort themselves out.  When the dust settles you'll probably have an Israeli empire.  As for re-establishing the mess-o-potamia, why should the Farsi-speaking Iranians want to have anything to do with the Arabic-speaking illegitimate sons of Abram of Ur?

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Yo, Nonny --

I fully agree on the Ronnie Treatment for the Russians.  Since they don't appear to like us very much, I don't think it will hurt their feelings.  It might hurt their pride to collapse a second time -- but there you are. 

Isolate -- sanction -- bedevil.

Isolate them as completely as possible -- though that will be difficult since the Europeans don't want to offend anyone that has money to spend or energy to trade.  Isolate them politically.  Exile them to the fringes of the political discourse.  When they no longer have a stage, the players will go home.  Putin will have to get more and more reckless to get face-time on TV.  Eventually he will overplay his hand.

Sanction them till the moon turns blue.  We have not taken sufficient steps to threaten the monetary assets of the Russian oligarchs -- including the massive stash of cash Putin has squirreled away in foreign banks.  If we begin to freeze assets and hinder the transfer and flow of the oligarch's cash -- they will turn on Putin like a pack of wild dogs.

Bedevil them at every turn.  Since they have moved air assets into Syria -- our next move is to send in anti-air weapons.  Putin sent AA missiles into the Ukraine -- what are we waiting for?  And we get our friends at the CIA (you're best buddies -- lolo-lol!) into the picture.  A few operatives on the ground (deep cover, of course), a bit of covert equipment, some planning and organizing -- might pay handsome dividends.  If the Russian boots on the ground become the target, Putin might find the game less interesting to play. Economics -- If Putin sells oil to China, the US needs to make them a better offer.  Beat him at his own game.  The Chinese will play both ends against the middle -- we need to turn that to our advantage.  A little Sun Tzu will go a long way.  Water takes the path of least resistance -- find it and flood him out!

It won't take nearly as long to throw a monkey wrench in the works as it did before.  It took 70 years for Communism to implode the first time.  But times have changed and Putin's economy is no longer based on "state welfare".  Putin is running it like they did in Czarist Russia.  He now has private capitalists -- the rich are getting richer, and the serfs are NOT.  He could very well go on the skids in a single Presidential term.

Europe is hardly like wildcats!  It's more like herding pampered pussycats!!  They spent centuries fearing the Great Russian Bear -- alternatively petting him and running from him.  We need to make them and offer, then stand back and let them decide.  They can either go with us -- or we will pack our bags and come home.  The Europeans need to remember that they have been living fat and sassy for 70 years because the US WON WWII FOR THEM!!  I do not make light of the bravery, courage, and enormous sacrifice of our gallant allies (Canada most certainly).  But Britain (much as I like them and admire Mr. Churchill) -- could not have done the job alone -- all that bulldog courage and determination notwithstanding.  Simple military fact.  And -- we rebuilt Europe into the bargain (see Marshall Plan)!!  I do not seek thanks, and I feel badly about reminding them of the facts.  And I most humbly apologize if I offend -- it was not my intention to do so.  But the Europeans either need to muster the courage and deal with Russia firmly, or they need to remember where their bread is buttered.

The Scandinavians got all the brains when God was handing them out.  Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland are a lot smarter than people give them credit for.  They concentrate on taking care of their country, taking care of their people, and taking care of their own business.  And they manage their economies within the limits of their assets.  I could go on and on about their sound fiscal policies, but I digress...

I like the Israeli Empire bit -- that's good!   Letting them settle their own hash while keeping Israel safe sounds like a winner to me.  I spent a very long weekend during the '72 Yom Kippur War.  My battle tanks were parked on the second-longest runway in Germany beside a mess of C-5A Galaxy transport aircraft.  If the word had been passed -- I would have deployed to Israel in a matter of hours.  This is a largely unknown incident, but I swear by the Gods it's true.  That's how deep our pledge to Israel goes.  We may disagree, but if the cow patty hits the fan -- we will be there.  We know who our friends are.

Why would "Farsi" Iran want to re-establish the Persian Empire??  Why did an Aryan corporal want Poland, France, Holland, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc, etc, etc,etc???  Language and culture has never been a barrier to conquest.

  Edited October 5, 2015 by Dreadnought  

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Dreadnought- that kind of attitude is the reason why the Cold War never really ended. Are the nukes still ready to be launched? Are the submarines just waiting to be deployed? Does NATO continue its policy of doing its utmost in isolating Russia militarily? The US lost its s- when the Russians decided to bring the heat they were facing upon the Americans during the Cuban Missile Crisis. 60 years and counting of facing nuclear missiles, battalions of aircraft, tanks and troops plus an ever expanding missile shield- yet still the Russians held their nerve and remain restrained. Think about it, think about how that kind of besiegement affects the mentality of the Russian people. Of course in the 90s, after the Soviet Union collapsed, the West rather liked Russia because it became the oligarch's beech. That is the endgame here- impose oligarchy on Russia and take control of Russia's vast resources. Again yet another nation, or bunch of nations, trying to usurp Russia when such attempts were made stretching as far back as Napoleon. Is it any wonder why the Russians get all paranoid and defensive?

Now we all need to know where Russia has come and what its people have suffered from in the recent past. No nation has suffered has much as Russia has. At the start of the 20th century nearly all Russians were peasant fathers suffering from the tryanny of the Tsar. Then came WW1 and hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers were killed. Then came the Communist Revolution and years of purges as many skilled professionals, religious people and ethnic minorities were systematically hunted down, sent to the gulags, harassed, imprisoned and their homes destroyed. This was cultural annihilation on an unprecedented scale. And still the pain continued with Stalin's disastrous collectivisation plans to increase farming output- millions starved to death.

Then came WW2 and tens of millions of Russians died. Millions of soldiers killed in battle or dying in the brutal prisoner, and concentration, camps of the Nazis. The Russian mettle was so fiercely insane that there were some regiments of men who would share rifles, because the Russian army did not have enough weapons when the war began for the Nazis were on a rampage, and when one man died another man would pick up the other's rifle. We are talking about millions of Russian women and teenagers working the factories in often subzero conditions, when the winter came, working nearly all the hours God gave them. The Soviet methods were utterly appalling as millions were sacrificed with little regard so as to beat the Nazis with pure brute force. This was total war on a scale never seen before as the Soviet armies destroyed most of Hitler's armies. It was the Soviets who truly beat the Nazis and they would have swept across Europe to conquer all Nazi-held territory.

The Cold War, while no where near as deadly as the two world wars or the initial Soviet purges, was a period of misery for the Russians. Sure they had a job and an adequate wage to live on, but there was no freedom of speech and everybody bought the same food, clothes and cars. And as always with just one word misspoken a person would disappear, often forever. Russians who came to the West were astounded by the luxuries, the wealth, the choice of the consumer, the culture and the freedom of expression Western countries had. They were a beaten people too scared to dream and too afraid to openly express themselves.

When the Soviet Union came to an end Russia's culture was still very much underground- it finally emerged in the 80s when Gorbechev began Glasnost, the Orthodox Church finally emerged from hiding. And if you think things got better for the Russians when the Soviet Union collapsed then think again. Oligarchs arose who purchased the entirety of Russia's industry for a fraction of the actual price, they ruthlessly pursued profits- sacking millions of workers, and exerted extraordinary power over the government and media. Then the Russian government defaulted on its debts and pensioners savings were wiped out. At the end of the 90s Russia was even poorer and more destitute than ever before and still the oligarchs had total control. To add insult to injury the Russians had been swindled by greedy monopolistic thieves who screwed over their own people for a sickening amount of money and power.

The 20th century was nothing but misery for the Russians, and this is why so many of them love Putin. Putin was Judas to the Russian oligarchs. He pretended to be their friend and then turned on them when elected as President. He imprisoned and exiled many of them and the rest where brought to heel. Since the start of the new millennium the infrastructure is being rebuilt, the oligarchs have been removed or have been forced to pledge their allegiance to the Russian government, Christianity is flourishing once more and the Russian people have found their pride once more. There is still a long way to go, I'm not exactly sure how oppressive the Russian government is but it is nowhere close to the horrors of the Soviet Union.

Finally there is no moral high ground. The US has overthrown governments, invaded nations and manipulated countries for its own geopolitical goals, quite possibly on a far larger scale than Russia has since the end of WW2. What has Russia done in the last fifteen years: the war on Chechnya, defending Ossetia from the Georgians, taking control of Crimea and now siding with the Syrian government to defeat ISIS? And the US? Occupying Afghanistan and Iraq, bombing Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, Libya and Somalia in the war on terror, causing a whole ton of mayhem in the Middle-East and North Africa, and last but not least indirectly, I personally think directly, causing ISIS to form. Oh yes and also supporting the tyrannical Saudi government and a whole host of other crackpot dictators, including Saddam Hussein at one point, and Russia can't support Assad? Oh yeah, and now -- from 2013 onwards -- it's alright to arm Muslim militants affiliated with Al Qaeda and ISIS, because the militants are moderate you know. The US has weaved a web of lies and has lost control of the script, that's why it hates Russia's decision to give ISIS hell. A liar hates to be found out.

I ask again, where is the moral high ground?

p.s. Let us all overlook our friends, the Saudis, shortcomings: segregation of women, lack of democracy, the police state, brutal Sharia law where limbs are chopped off for minor crimes and heads are chopped for major ones. Hmm... Sounds a bit like ISIS. Just cover ones nose tightly as you ignore the stench of hypocrisy.

  Edited October 5, 2015 by Ln X  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, let's look at Russia for a moment.  Stalin killed more people than the NAZIs, some of them Jews but most of them "citizens" of the USSR.  Uncle Joe, as the guys at Yalta called him, was a serious paranoid who saw conspiracies against him at every turn.  Being a friend of Josip Vissarionovich was tricky indeed.  You never new when the axe would fall.  It is really too bad that he missed Vlad Putin, but them's the breaks.

It is hard to be nice to someone who is inherently not nice.  I suspect that Mr. Putin is nearly of the same stripe as Stalin, but not quite as nuts.  There is pretty good conjecture that he has ordered at least one assassination.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Well, let's look at Russia for a moment.  Stalin killed more people than the NAZIs, some of them Jews but most of them "citizens" of the USSR.  Uncle Joe, as the guys at Yalta called him, was a serious paranoid who saw conspiracies against him at every turn.  Being a friend of Josip Vissarionovich was tricky indeed.  You never new when the axe would fall.  It is really too bad that he missed Vlad Putin, but them's the breaks.

It is hard to be nice to someone who is inherently not nice.  I suspect that Mr. Putin is nearly of the same stripe as Stalin, but not quite as nuts.  There is pretty good conjecture that he has ordered at least one assassination.

Yo, Nonny --

This is why I refrain from commenting.  You have to keep coming back to the new comments.

FIRST POINT:

"Uncle Adolf" has had as many as 20 million deaths attributed to him during wartime.  After glasnost took hold, Russian researchers have estimated that "Uncle Joe" has accounted for between 40 to 60 million dead -- mostly his own people -- and largely during peacetime.  Stalin has been quoted as saying..."One man's death is a tragedy. The death of millions is only a statistic." 

SECOND POINT:

Putin is certainly just as devious as Stalin, equally duplicitous, possibly a bit more on the crazy side, but he seems to confine himself to causing trouble outside Mother Russia.  Only this morning, Russian warplanes in Syria violated Turkish air space.  This is just the beginning of what is going to get out of hand. 

Putin has one other characteristic that seems more pronounced than it was in Stalin.  He will push the Western powers as far as he can -- to the very brink.  Once he fears that shooting will start --he will back off.  But we will have to threaten -- and prove the threat -- of fire and brimstone before he will climb down.  The Kremlin "blinked" in 62' -- and they will blink again.  Putin does not want war -- it would destroy the house of cards he has spent so much time and effort building up.  A war will cost him his power base, and ultimately his job, if not his life.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Dreadnought- that kind of attitude is the reason why the Cold War never really ended. Are the nukes still ready to be launched? Are the submarines just waiting to be deployed? Does NATO continue its policy of doing its utmost in isolating Russia militarily? T

 

Finally there is no moral high ground. The US has overthrown governments, invaded nations and manipulated countries for its own geopolitical goals, quite possibly on a far larger scale than Russia has since the end of WW2. What has Russia done in the last fifteen years: the war on Chechnya, defending Ossetia from the Georgians, taking control of Crimea and now siding with the Syrian government to defeat ISIS? And the US? Occupying Afghanistan and Iraq, bombing Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, Libya and Somalia in the war on terror, causing a whole ton of mayhem in the Middle-East and North Africa, and last but not least indirectly, I personally think directly, causing ISIS to form. Oh yes and also supporting the tyrannical Saudi government and a whole host of other crackpot dictators, including Saddam Hussein at one point, and Russia can't support Assad? Oh yeah, and now -- from 2013 onwards -- it's alright to arm Muslim militants affiliated with Al Qaeda and ISIS, because the militants are moderate you know. The US has weaved a web of lies and has lost control of the script, that's why it hates Russia's decision to give ISIS hell. A liar hates to be found out.

I ask again, where is the moral high ground?

p.s. Let us all overlook our friends, the Saudis, shortcomings: segregation of women, lack of democracy, the police state, brutal Sharia law where limbs are chopped off for minor crimes and heads are chopped for major ones. Hmm... Sounds a bit like ISIS. Just cover ones nose tightly as you ignore the stench of hypocrisy.

Ln X --

I'm going to cut to the chase, here -- most of us are old enough to have first-hand knowledge of the history.

ONE:

Yes -- the ships, bombers, ICBMs, submarines, and troops are ready, at a moment's notice, to be deployed.  They always have been, and they always will be.  Even if you believed that the world had suddenly gone peaceful -- history teaches you that Russians do not abide by treaties.

TWO:

Yes -- the Cold War is on again.  It started the day Putin invaded the Crimea.  I had no problems with Russia joining the community of nations as an equal member, until he did that.  Of course it pissed him off when the newly sovereign republics of the former Soviet Union applied to NATO and the EU.  It's not their fault that Europe has a more prosperous economy -- or that they well know they can't trust Putin to respect their borders.

Three:

Putin is not the reforming crusader you make him out to be.  The man is as big a thief as the rest of the oligarchs -- perhaps the biggest of them all.  All he did was what Al Capone did -- he brought the rival mobsters under his control so he could take the lion's share of the loot, hide the extent of the theft from the Russian people, and ensure that it would continue to fill his Swiss bank accounts for many years top come.  If any oligarch steps out of line, he ends up in jail, and if he is lucky -- permanent exile to the west.  I guess that makes him a sweet guy, after all -- Stalin would have shot him and been done with it.  (Stalin may have been smarter in the end -- dead men tell no tales,)

FOUR:

Moral high ground is a term used by debating clubs.  In reality, there is no moral high ground.  Nobody has clean hands.  "Moral high ground" and 15$ will get you a double latte at Starbucks -- but nothing more!  Like thieves, there is no honor among nations.  In 1914, Italy was allied to Germany and Austro-Hungary.  But she promptly betrayed her alliance when the Allied Powers made a better offer -- I think the term they used was "Sacred Self-Interest".  There is your moral high ground.  Every nation has "sacred self-interest" at the heart of their actions.  Words are worthless -- only actions speak the truth.  If it hadn't been so serious, I would have laughed myself silly when Putin denied the presence of Russian troops in the Ukraine!!

FIVE:

As for the US and Saudi Arabia -- there is truth in what you say.  We have supported many regimes that turned out to be bad -- and there will be many more.  Self-interest makes for strange political bedfellows.  Nikita was happy enough to support Castro with missiles.  He was equally happy to remove them after he realized Castro was insane enough to use them without Russian permission!  Everyone says and does what is in their own best interests -- good, bad, or indifferent.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".  Where did you hear that?  And doesn't it make sense if the object is to get at your enemy? 

On a smaller scale -- when is the last time you told your girlfriend that those jeans did NOT make her butt look big?

 

Gotta go, guys.  I've got 26 marina lots that need re-lotting!

Ta --

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I think I can claim the recent reference to the enemy of my enemy.  It is an old truism.  If someone is taking a swipe at someone you don't like, it isn't in your interest to intervene of the side of the swipee.  Nations are like people in this regard.  When some disliked outfit is being beaten upon, there is a chorus of support for the beaters and some join in the fray.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

I think I can claim the recent reference to the enemy of my enemy.  It is an old truism.  If someone is taking a swipe at someone you don't like, it isn't in your interest to intervene of the side of the swipee.  Nations are like people in this regard.  When some disliked outfit is being beaten upon, there is a chorus of support for the beaters and some join in the fray.

Yo, Nonny --

Not to burst your bubble, but my reference was, in fact, to the Middle Eastern common usage of the phrase and the philosophy.  My guess is that it was already an "old saying" in Mesopotamia when Christ was born.

When Churchill -- a rabid anti-Bolshevik -- moved to ally with Stalin in 1941, an aide was amazed.  Churchill replied to the effect..."Were Hitler to invade Hell I would manage a favorable reference in support of the Devil Himself in the House of Commons".  A rather "Churchillian" use of the same philosophy.  Hence -- "politics make strange bedfellows".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, friend, I wasn't claiming originality.  However, I have used that quote in other forums, and to the best of my knowledge it is somewhere in 'The Art of War' by Sun Tsu.  Let's say around five millennia.

Now we have the TPP which, if ratified by all concerned, will put the squeeze on China.  I expect as this becomes a reality, others who declined to be in the initial round will be encouraged to sign up.  South Korea for example.

Don't be surprised that when the fur stops flying or at least settles a little in Mesopotamia, that there will be trouble along the Russia/China border.  Wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese extended the Great Wall.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Well, friend, I wasn't claiming originality.  However, I have used that quote in other forums, and to the best of my knowledge it is somewhere in 'The Art of War' by Sun Tsu.  Let's say around five millennia.

Now we have the TPP which, if ratified by all concerned, will put the squeeze on China.  I expect as this becomes a reality, others who declined to be in the initial round will be encouraged to sign up.  South Korea for example.

Don't be surprised that when the fur stops flying or at least settles a little in Mesopotamia, that there will be trouble along the Russia/China border.  Wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese extended the Great Wall.

Yo --

It's equally possible that the Russians and Chinese will form an alliance.

Putin needs every friend he can get -- and the Chinese do not take kindly to America asserting herself in the form of the TPP.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The Chinese are perfect free to apply to join the TPP.  It would definitely put the fox in the hen house as far as the Tsar Vlad is concerned.  Considering the fact that the ancient game of GO originated in China, this kind of snap back would not surprise me one bit.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Syrian Civil War.

Russia says it is targeting "all terrorists", but at least some of its air strikes have reportedly hit civilians and Western-backed rebels.

Now just who is reporting this?  Some western reporter or western oriented group?  Every heard of the "fog of war"?

Seems the Russians are fed up, and have decided to come down hard for Assad.  If this happens to blow up some of the CIAs little assets, why not?  These American backed outfits haven't been getting anywhere anyway, and we know from experience with this kind of outfit that they will be a PITA after the fuss dies down no matter who wins.  You give me three insurgents and I'll give you six knife fights.

With all the propaganda pouring out of this kerfuffle, how can anyone ascertain the truth?  Too many spin doctors, and no objective observers.

  Edited October 7, 2015 by A Nonny Moose  
Fixing language.

[matias93 7,535]

Syrian Civil War.

Russia says it is targeting "all terrorists", but at least some of its air strikes have reportedly hit civilians and Western-backed rebels.

Now just who is reporting this?  Some western reporter or western oriented group?  Every heard of the "fog of war"?

Seems the Russians are fed up, and have decided to come down hard for Assad.  If this happens to blow up some of the CIAs little assets, why not?  These American backed outfits haven't been getting anywhere anyway, and we know from experience with this kind of outfit that they will be a PITA after the fuss dies down no matter who wins.  You give me three insurgents and I'll give you six knife fights.

With all the propaganda pouring out of this kerfuffle, how can anyone ascertain the truth?  Too many spin doctors, and no objective observers.

What we know is that the most probable scenario has a rational Putin, who will maximize his utility aiding Assad to get rid of internal and external enemies, in exchange for territories disposed as russian military bases. If those enemies are allies or enemies of western countries, it is basically indiferent to Putin, who already broke relations with the countries that could be upset with his actions.

Interesstingly, the next big move is in hands of the US electorate, choosing war-prone or war-adverse candidates to the next government.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

NATO rattles its sabre.

Somebody should give NATO a tranquilizer.  Seems the Russians really want to clean up the mess in Syria.  The best thing the Americans can do is cut off aid to the insurgent groups there, and keep their intelligence(?) teams from blowing up more MSF hospitals.

We are all being snowed by the "fog of war".  Whose spin doctors can be ever trust?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The U.S. has decided to stop wasting training cadre on the so-called Syrian rebels.  They should also stop supplying them with materiel.  The "rebels" would be rather SOL if the American pipe dried up.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

The U.S. has decided to stop wasting training cadre on the so-called Syrian rebels.  They should also stop supplying them with materiel.  The "rebels" would be rather SOL if the American pipe dried up.

I beg to differ, Nonny -- (But that doesn't surprise you, does it?)

I, personally, don't think Syria is worth the "bones of one Pommeranian Grenadier"! (Can't remember who said it -- probably Napoleon or Frederick The Great.)  The US has shed enough blood -- and spent far too much treasure -- on the Middle East.  The place would be useless and forgotten if they would stop shooting at other people.  They fight right now, to either oust or protect a tin-pot dictator -- only to replace him with another tin-pot dictator.  Historically, the region has been run by generations of tin-pot dictators and it exists largely as a neighborhood feud between tribes and religions.  Much like China in the last century, the "European Devils" are involved only because they have something to gain -- either bases or influence.

But, unlike some countries / people, I do understand that a global power has interests that may not be readily apparent to others.  Like it or not, the US is involved -- God knows Why!  You have demonstrated a good grasp of current affairs, a flair for the philosophical, and a deal of wit.  But you border on the paranoid about the CIA, and wave your anti-US stance like a Maple Leaf Flag!  I am no fan of our current foreign policy -- you can see that by reading my posts.  But I am stuck with it until 2016!

Please do not misunderstand -- I am not picking on you, Nonny.  Being a Canadian, you understand that your country has never been faced with these sorts of decisions and demands from other nations to act.  If Canada was "the big kid on the block" her policies would, I'm quite sure, be far different -- and possibly abhorrent to you.  But it troubles me that a man of your obvious intelligence should so easily fall into the trap of failing to see both sides of the coin.  The CIA is much like everything else in the world -- good or bad -- depending upon which end of the stick you have.  But the world has cast the US in the role of "global policeman" and has been quite content to disagree openly with us on many occasions while continuing to enjoy that protection.  I truly do not believe that the American people enjoy this role.  Many Americans, myself included, would rather see the nations of the world live peacefully within the borders they have created.  Unfortunately, too many children in a sandbox that has not been evenly distributed speaks of trouble.

Again, personally, I would supply them with all the arms they want, contain the conflict by any means possible, and let them fight it out amongst themselves -- win, lose, or draw.  Rather than send US troops and planes into Syria, I would simply level the playing field a bit.  Once they have exhausted themselves, and the dust settles, we can see who is still standing.  My guess is that the former Syrian population of 16 million will have been reduced to 1 or 2 million -- and if Assad wins, the Russians will have acquired a puppet tin-pot dictator and a very, very large and sparsely populated military base named "Syria" -- which will require large infusions of non-existant Rubbles. 

We need not concern ourselves with trying to stop the current fighting.  All those refugees flooding into Europe will eventually stop without US intervention.  There are, after all -- possibly a mere 4 millions left to be resettled in order to empty out Putin's future acquisition.  No more people, no more fighting, Assad stays in power, and Putin OWNS Syria and Assad -- lock, stock, and barrel.  Game over!  Or we can send weapons and see if someone less bloody-minded can take power and convince the Russians to cut their losses and leave Syria to lick its' wounds in peace.

Once again, Nonny -- ABSOLUTELY no offense intended, my friend --

BUT -- what's your solution to a no-win situation?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I fail to see where we are in disagreement.  I do not support, and have never supported, the nonsense going on at the eastern end of the Mediterranean, a,k.a. 'The Levant", a,k.a. Mesopotamia.  The start of most of the trouble occurred with the Balfour declaration by the British Colonial Office in 1917 which stated that the Jews deserved a homeland.  I don't think it said where.

After WW II to there was so much guilt about the Holocaust among the Allies (USSR and China excepted) that when the Arab territories that had been allied with Hitler and Co. were being settled, some fool allowed the creation of the State of Israel right in the middle of the boiling pot.  And, of course, there was at least a millennium of racial hatred in Europe so the Jews had to go somewhere.  All things being equal at the time, Canada could have taken them in and given them a territory north of 60 which by now would have become a province like Quebec, wanting independence but not wanting to give up the benefits of being Canadian.

As for "Next year in Jerusalem", Jerusalem should have been declared an open city under the rule of the United Nations.  It is the centre of two or three major religions, and should not be inside any national territory.  The Romans had the right of it when they ripped the city down and expelled the Jews because they were too fractious to govern.  The Jews forfeited their right to that land over the centuries, and needed to be settled elsewhere.  Canada is not a land of milk and honey.  North of 60 it is cold, but there is lots of arable land and tons of mineral resources.  Instead of handing the Ungava territory over to Quebec, it would have been a great place for the Jews.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I have always been indifferent to the plight of the Jews because as an atheist all monotheistic religions I find boring and so Christianity, Islam and Judaism are to me like Sainsburys Tescos and Morrisons.

 

But Israel... I tend to agree with Nonny. If the Jews deserve a nation then so be it, I have nothing against jewry per se any more than I do against Christians or Mohammedians.

But Jerusalem is a multireligious city and of course the region has been mainly Muslim for some centuries.

So perhaps Canada or the US should have created a state for them.

And Jerusalem should be a U N controlled indifferent zone, hell why not build the UN HQ there.

  Edited October 12, 2015 by Mark_Kochan