Adopt ANTI TERRORISM signiture for a week

[Compromise 1]

Well this is a good idea for passive protest, I think I will join in. Please don't ruin it by flame wars.

[DuskTrooper 316]

Date: 7/9/2005 4:27:26 PM
Author: toxicpiano
Yes, you should what Tony blair and his disastrous labour party have brought the UK. Dusktrooper, what the hell are you on about?

quote>

Eh?

[langem13 2]

I admire and respect the spirit of this anti-terror sig.  I do not support or condone 'terrorist' activities, nor the dogma of those that engage in them.  I would, however, like to throw something out there for you to chew on:

One man's terrorist can be another man's freedom fighter.  That is to say, if you were a member of an oppressed class or nation, whose military and technological capabilities were far inferior to those of your oppressor's, you would opt for covert, surruptitious actions and fear tactics.  In the French-Indian war, and the Vietnam War (just two of many examples) the technologically and militarily inferior force resorted to unfair tactics to gain the advantage.

 

So, terrorists blow up buildings and busses, often along with themselves, while we have the luxury of dropping 'smart' bombs from 30,000 feet.  But we feel we're in the right, because God is on our side.  That and from our perspective we say well.. they started it!.  This is not always so cut and dry.

 

Terrorism has become such a catch word... instead of demonizing the actions and concepts of terrorism, why don't we examine closely what causes people to go to such extremes?  Certainly, the Arab world is not populated by lunatics.  Even more certain, they don't hate us because we're free [WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP].  Perhaps instead of driving bigger and bigger trucks, we should release ourselves from the grips of the corrupt Middle-Eastern oil cartel by driving more fuel-efficient cars, walking and taking public transit more, and promoting the research of new energy sources.

 

So toxicpiano, it's a very lovely thought.  I do indeed sympathize with the victims, past and present (when I saw the London footage, I started to choke up, as deep-seated memories of 9/11 were recalled).  Please don't consider this a flame; I generally like to prod people to look past the simple, dig below the surface, and think toward a viable solution.  Ribbons and emotions can only do so much.

[vidioman 21]

^ Very well said

[Compromise 1]

Date: 7/9/2005 6:01:27 PM Author: langem13 So toxicpiano, it's a very lovely thought.  I do indeed sympathize with the victims, past and present (when I saw the London footage, I started to choke up, as deep-seated memories of 9/11 were recalled).  Please don't consider this a flame; I generally like to prod people to look past the simple, dig below the surface, and think toward a viable solution.  Ribbons and emotions can only do so much.

quote>

 

Well said but its better than nothing.

[Stik Fig 2]

langem...That is a very good point. I always thought that about the suicide bombers. Are they doing it cause they really want to, or just cause someone made them do it?

[ILL Tonkso 1,239]

And Birmingham UK Joins the Club. Luckily We Found the Bombs before they went off.

[Cjah 15]

I was wondering how to change my avatar to reflect these horrible events....

Here is my avatar in all its glory.All I want to do is add a British Flag in the background.

 

http://img267.echo.cx/img267/2365/grinzakuedit67dn.gif

 

O.K. so if someone could help it'd be much thanked....

[Duke87 1,070]

Ugh. okay. As an american, I hate terrorism and support any efforts against it. However, I'm not going to adopt some generic sig image for a week that's going to be plastered all over the place anyway. besides, I already have a sig image which goes with my avatar and I'm happy with it.

Bottom lines:

 

-Terrorism sucks

-I don't want to pollute my sig with a semi-patriotic message that really doesn't need to be said.

 

Yes, we all stand together against terrorism. I think everyone gets that. We don't need the message plastered all over the place to the point where it starts to become propaganda...

 

-Duke out.

[tim_de_great 15]

One must remember that Al Queda is an extreme terrorist group, stuck on a religous fanaticism, who seeks nothing more than the destruction of the western world. Al Queda attacks countries like the US and the UK not so much because of what these countries have done, but rather because the terrorists interpret the Koran differently than other Arabs. The Americans, British and all other western countries cannot just sit on there buts and hope that the terrorists will leave them alone, they have to be proactive. The number one priority of a country is to ensure that its citizens are safe and secure. Hopefully this incident will get my country (Canada) to think more about its safety, as we are another major and vey unprepared target.

toxicpiano: Israel has been going through terrorist attacks for many years, perhaps you should add them to your signature.

[M-SIL 2]

Date: 7/9/2005 8:15:52 PM Author: Cjah

I was wondering how to change my avatar to reflect these horrible events....

Here is my avatar in all its glory.All I want to do is add a British Flag in the background.

http://img267.echo.cx/img267/2365/grinzakuedit67dn.gif

O.K. so if someone could help it'd be much thanked....

I could what I could do if you don't mine. BTW, thanks for the great comment on the forum game and since you requested to have my signature pic. Just pm me and I'll gladly give it to you and the same go to everyone want my signature pic.  

 

Forgot of mention, I'm in too. 

[General Gunfire 0]

This is DEFINITELY going in my signature. All those bloody terrorists can burn in HELL!

[canuck3360 14]

7/7-was a bad enough day for me but now this I will definitly use this in my Signature

7/7/03-R.I.P. GPD

7/7/05-More sorrow

[kefka 3]

I see so many minivans with all sorts of different ribbons all over them, but I know that almost all of those people haven't actualy supported what their ribbon says.  They've supported the upcomming ribbon industry by buying the ribbon, but they haven't donated their time or money to whatever cause their ribbons support.

I think this thread is good, but make sure you activly support anti-terrorism.  contribute your time or money to some kind of effort, and report stray luggage even if it makes you feel stupid.  provide personal moral support to people if they want it, and that sort of stuff.

 

I think terrorism won't last too long like this.  The number of actual terrorists is small, and the vast majority (even the people who might agree with the terrorists cause) of people disagree with terrorism.  And the more terrorist attacks, the more anti-terrorism support and security there is.

[MallowTheCloud 41]

That's what I don't get about these terrorists...

The more they do these mass terrorist attacks, the more people are going to get angry at them, and the less new recruits they are going to get. It's a lose-lose situation for them. What do they stand to gain?


But.... since the majority are either in it for the money, or for some inflated dreams of the afterlife, I doubt they care about that point.

[gotanda 0]

I am from Birmingham (where the latest scare was) so I think I have as much right to talk about Terrorism as anyone else.  Terrorism is having 150,000 soldiers in your country and suffering THOUSANDS of deaths with no end in sight.  I am British and I do not support the presence of soldiers in  other countries.  I do not want to stand with America if that means accepting Gung-Ho invasions of the rest of the world.  Why has no-one made a sign for all the Iraqs who have died, been mutilated ect. 

[eadnams 0]

On the topic of world peace... theres a growing concern that the largest threat to world peace isn't Al Queda, but the USA... which, if you look at the amount of innocent blood on their hands, the USA has a lot more... Just some food for thought, pendulum the other way so to speak...

-Hadrion

Edit: Also, it's very sad that Iraq has taken the fall for Al Queda, considering they have no connections and are on opposite ends of the religious spectrums...

PS: HAs anyone else noticed that 'Terrorism' in the media/government is basicly the new 'Communism'? Seems like we have to be afraid of something...

[matthewcherry83 0]

I have been using Simtropolis for over a year now, and this is my very first post.  This thread in particular has caught my attention as it very close to me, and a very serious issue at hand.

The battle against terrorism is a very delicate situation.  One of the biggest desried effects of terrorism is to frighten a nation's, or several nations', citizens in order to interrupt not only the economy, but the people's support for the action's of their government.  These terrorists are insanely inhuman, not only killing innocent civilians of western countries, but innocent civilians of the Middle East.  The majority of people in the ME are great people, many things about them are no different than you or me.  A few beliefs, perhaps, but those are nothing that warrants slaughtering of people.  These terrorists have not only advanced onto our lands(where we are most vulnerable), but are striking against THEIR OWN PEOPLE!  Now, tell me, are these terrorists acting in the name of all their people?  Are they justified by the Koran(in their radical interpretations) to kill their own people in their attempts to oust the 'infidels'?  The idea that I think any human should adopt who understands that the tactics(not necessarily their causes, those are left to be personal opinions) of terrorists are simply wrong need to understand that they as a simple civilian are a target of their attacks.  They wish to harness you with fear.  Fear has been the ultimate tool in brainwashing, or perhaps for a softer term, persuading people since the beginning of time.  Note:  Any major religion uses the 'tool' of fear to guide their congregation in the 'right way', the 'good way';  animals are often domesticated using the ideas of fear;  children learn and develop based on fear (a child touches a hot stove, burns himself, and thus is further scared to touch it again).  So, the terrorists are not stupid, they understand how to manipulate people.  However, i believe they have under-estimated  the ideas of patriotism, nationalism, and even humanity.  So, even as little tiny pawns in this 'game', we can fight back.  By continuing to show resolve through these tough times, as our governments and armies are pro-active in up-rooting and destroying these terrorists.  Granted, if each person who puts a signature up could somehow materialistically help the effort, it would be a wondeful thing.  This is not pheasible however, but i encourage anyone who can do it, to do it.  So,  hopefully, most everyone can open their mind enough to realize whether they think the terrorists may be right in their causes and wants, that in no way and by no means are they right in taking innocent lives who are just living their life day by day, struggling through work so they can go home to their loved ones afterwards.  And with this open mind, understand that any little bit any one person can do is remarkable.

 

Let me finish by addind that I am a reservist in the United States Army.  I was mobilized for one year and spent 11 months in Afghanistan.  In my time their i got to meet and converse with many of the local nationals there.  Not one of the locals i spoke with supported either Taliban or Al-qaeda.  They were supportive of the coalitions efforts.  I have pictures of little kids running up to me to shake my hand, and saluting me as I passed by.  Do net let the media destroy you, or your country.  The media has the right to free press, and that is the way it should stay.   But, because of that and that media is a business, it publishes/airs what sells, and sadly human nature likes to buy drama and grief.  Happiness doesn't make a headline in these days.  The number of good things that are being accomplished for these people are vast greater than you will ever see/hear in the media.  And, do not attack, or flame, others.  The best way to make a point or to teach somebody something(lol, aside from fear) is to simply be civil about it.  Thats what all this boils down to in the end, is civility.  The terrorists, our wars against these terrorists, are all un-civil things.  Lets all do the best we can to keep the level of civility as high as we can.  So, a combination of soldiers and smart bombs, and civilians with patriotism and resolve (who do need to keep governments in check as well) are humanity's best weapon.

 

This thread is great, I extend my support!

[Ma8thew 77]

Date: 7/9/2005 10:18:50 PM
Author: M-SIL

Date: 7/9/2005 8:15:52 PM Author: Cjah

I was wondering how to change my avatar to reflect these horrible events....

Here is my avatar in all its glory.All I want to do is add a British Flag in the background.

http://img267.echo.cx/img267/2365/grinzakuedit67dn.gif

O.K. so if someone could help it'd be much thanked....

quote>

I could what I could do if you don't mine. BTW, thanks for the great comment on the forum game and since you requested to have my signature pic. Just pm me and I'll gladly give it to you and the same go to everyone want my signature pic.

Forgot of mention, I'm in too.

quote>
This is one of the best illustrations of langem13's point. For many years the Palestinians were the victim of Israeli terrorism. Then the UN gave in to this terrorism and gave the Palistinian land to the Israelis. Now the Palistinians are the terrorists in their former home land. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[toxicpiano 125]

I read in the paper this morning that there are kind of DIY videos on the net for terrorists. One was about how to blow up a bus, with maxium death toll and impact. and american news reporter commented that is was more like a national geographic documentry than a terrorist how-to. It showed a mock up of a bus, and which position to stand or sit. It also showed howto make a efficient bomb belt. We appear to be in a new age of extremely organised, well researched terrorism. The internet is becoming a serious problem in catching terrorists, because it can be used to broadcast their beliefs and anti humane ideals. In the UK police have said the bombs were set off within seconds of each other, meaning that they highly organised, and that they were well prepared. unfortunately i don't think the intelligent terrorist will go away as quickly as we'd like.

[jeronij 13]

I just wanted to say that I want to support somehow the victims. I

[langem13 2]

There have been some excellent points made here, and I'm so pleased to see that the flaming is non-existant.. maybe just a few smoldering embers

Toxicpiano mentioned that modern terrorists are highly organized and effective.  True.  I have pondered before though - and London only furthered my confusion - as to how low the death tolls end up, considering the targets.  I mean, having ridden the 'Tube' in London before, I would imagine that a few strategically placed bombs would potentially kill hundreds not tens of people.  Those subway cars can get pretty packed.  Even going back to WTC, were there not supposed to be like 50,000 people in the towers when they were hit?  Certainly, many thousands escaped death, but how did only less than 2800 die? [and I say only not to belittle those who perished, but in astonishment at how few did]As far as I've observed, this has not been thorougly explained.. and I would think it beneficial if someone would attempt to do so here.

 

Eadnams, yeah, America has MILLIONS of innocent lives' worth of blood on its hands.  Of course, most of those lives were taken in either secret CIA-directed operations (lots in Latin America), or in good-old, god-on-our-side, justified and righteous WAR.  It's ok to kill civilians in war... you just have to declare that you're going to do it first.. if you do it all secret-like without complicated military hardware and a sponsoring nation who has officially declared war, then it's terrorism.  Now, to be fair, Japanese and German civilians were an integral part of their nations' war efforts.. however the massive bombing campaign of North Vietnamese cities enacted by Nixon.. well I guess it was just as F'd up as the rest of the Vietnam War.... anyway!

 

YES.  Ma8thew got my point perfectly.  Why is it when Palestinians relatiate against Israelis, it's terrorism, but when Israelis march into Palestinian settlements with tanks and grenades, it's just another military exercise.. and why don't we hear about the real death tolls on both sides? 

 

I think this is representative at an issue fundamental to what causes terrorism and the opression that gives birth to it:  Religious extremism.  The Koran is interpreted (incorrectly).  Certain muslims are brought up to believe in this absolute interpretation, or face eternal damnation.  In the name of Allah, who is supposed by the major mono-theistic religions to be a peaceful and loving god, they kill.  Ok, now replace the word muslim with Jewish/Christian, Koran with Torah/Bible, and Allah with Yahweh/God.  Hmmm....

Of course, ostensibly, Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christians don't kill as much as their muslim extremist counterparts, but they do promote narrow-minded, black-and-white, good-and-evil type thinking, which doesn't make good politics in today's complex and delicate world.  Ok, if you didn't get it by now, that was a not-so-subtle dig on our president.. I'll stop this post now!

[Shinagawa 0]

Well said Langham 13.  I lived in the USA for 6 months a few years ago and I loved it.  It really is a wonderful place.  The policies being carried out in the country's name however are wrong.  Truly wrong. 

[matthewcherry83 0]

Langham13 indeed has made very good points.  While the prospect of MILLIONS of innocent civilians blood on America's hand is a bit over the top, it is undeniable that the US does carry the blood of thousands upon thousands throughout it's history.  Sadly, our advanced technology and 'precision' weapons and warfare are often not nearly as simple and clean cut as they may be made out to be.  But, the vast majority of these civlilian deaths were incurred during a warfare operations where the civilians were not the target.

It also really is not fair to only consider the US, or the UK, as some of the only and few sufferers of terrorism.  While Al-qaeda and it's organizations may be concentrated on the western powers, there are innumerable nations, districs of many sorts, that suffer some form of what would generally be viewed as terrorism.  To create an all inclusive list of these countries since terrorism surfaced would be entirely too long.  So in addressing victims of terrorism, I believe perhaps it is not fair just to consider, the US, the UK, Spain, Turkey, or even just Israel or Palestine.  Any country, any group, any PERSON that has been the victim, from an objective viewpoint, of tactics that are over the acceptable line for preserving humanity, should be in our mind, our hearts, our prayers, whatever have you.

 

Now, a couple other points to consider.  America, and the policies it is carrying out in it's countries name, are not running solo with these efforts. The two heavy powers of course, carrying out these policies in the ME curently are of course the UK and America.  The international coalition for Iraq is terribly smaller and weaker than the giant, more effective coalition in Afghanistan/Operation Enduring Freedom.  None the less, there is a coaltiion.  Now, the point to question is, what policies that are being implemented within either Iraq or Afghanistan are wrong?  While I'll be the first to admit, the intelligence used for starting the campaign in Iraq has yet to prove to be reasonably true(and who that ultimately boils down to is really something not easy to discern), what has been accomplished over there is really sort of amazing.  In Afghanistan, it is unarguable the good things that their country and the coalition have worked together to bring to their people.  Their first national election had a greater turnout than any of the US elections have EVER received.  These people wanted change, and they were making it happen in the face of adversity.  The same type of thing is happening in Iraq, however obviously not as effectively.  But the schools/hospitals/infrastructure that have been reconstructed or constructed is an amazing thing in itself.  Once again,  while the people are getting anxious for us to leave and let themselves govern themselves, the majority are generally happy for the changes and transitions that are set upon them.  They are no longer under the rule of a tyrannical dictatorship that favored merely a small section of its people, and gassed others.  The insurgents, while originally perhaps were some of Husseins loyalist, are now mostly foreigners, entering Iraq to strike tremendous blows at the American public image.  It is a form of politics that the terrorists are implementing, and it is effective.  People all too often can not bring themselves to see what is hidden behind the front page. I mean that in both a metaphor, and literally.  So, if the majority of people that these policies are most directly affecting do not think they are wrong, how can the rest of us who sit outside of it distantly say that it is wrong.  Now, i understand that everyone has their own opinions and that is wonderful. But, remember to try to extend those opinions past the eyesight of merely yourself nad your thoughts/opinions.  Think about who is affected most, and how they think about it.  Warfare, and revolution/transition is never a clean ordeal, even in it's most humane ways proposed by the geneva convention and such.  Violence is a fact of human nature in these times because humans are in general power hungry.  What really does suck and i wish their was a better solution to is the fact that Iraq is getting the lower hand because of our presence their and the vulnerablity we have their.  So, Iraq, is caught in the crossfire of the war against terror.  This is a sad fact that is easily conceded.  But ultimately what it is doing to their people too is pissing them off and they grow hatred towards these terrorists as well.

 

EDIT:  I am aware of a few typos and misuse of 'their' instead of 'there'; my apologies

 

[Yellowlab 11]

What strikes me is how painfully easy it would be to pull off a terrorist attack.  For example, I was in Washington over the weekend, and members of the group I was with were able to carry backpacks and bags onto the Metro, onto buses, into museums, including the Smithsonian, and basically anywhere without any kind of security at all.  In the Museum of American History (Smithsonian) we walked through the metal detectors and our bags were not searched at all.  Police detail on the Metro was non-existent (we rode 3 different times, getting on/off at 6 stations, and were not searched once.  The entire time I was on the Metro (probably an hour or so) I only saw 1 officer, who was not even in the car or looking around the platform but was simply standing there.  I could have brought a bomb onto the train as easily as I could have brought a camera on, which was scary, really.  The only place our bags were searched in was the Smithsonian Air and Space.  Overall the lack of security in DC was astounding.

 

If you throw in the innumerable soft targets - hotels, restaurants, street corners, cars, schools - the opportunity for terrorism here is not only apparent but easy to do.

[Compromise 1]

You can lower the chance of a terriost attack but you can never elimanate it. Military Intelligence Department 5 (MI5) knew that a terroist attack in London was bound to happen one day. So a terroist attack could well happen again in the UK and this could turn into constent IRA style small attacks but with no warnings.

[Superstar 69]

I would just like to point out one thing about these muslim terrorists. As was said the Koran is interpreted incorrectly by this group of Muslims but they believe in it and more than that they believe in death which is what leads them to heartless attacks againts innocent people.

[Dupontfan24 0]

I'll stay out of the US bashing and post a few pictures ya'll should like

and for all our non-Americans at this site...

[langem13 2]

^ This sort of gung-ho jingoistic attitude is a typical response to terrorism.. even violence in general, but it's not very constructive in the whole scheme of things.  Hell, I'd like to personally get my hands on Bin Laden and some of these warped-minded fanatics. [i'd probably hand them over to the victims' families, under government supervision.  But if we reduce these terrorists to hunters' quarry, if we only respond to terrorism with tough talk and ass whoopin' and continue on our arrogant, ignorant way, nothing will change.  The more of them we kill, the more fuel we add to their fire.  Death, honor, martrydom are powerful ideas and the terrorists know how to exploit them.  YES, we should seek out and destroy terrorists and their organizations, but that's only the tip of the iceberg.. it's like lopping off a third of a tumor, and expecting the whole thing to die.. it won't, it'll just keep growing.

Dupontfan24, what you see as US bashing is really being honest and historically accurate about our nation's role in world politics.. and the rippling effects we have.  Certainly Bin Laden is evil.  But what if we never had dealings with the corrupt Saudi ruling family?  What if we could take our fingers out of the cookie jar in the Middle East?

-- 

Regarding the number of 'innocent lives' the US has been responsible for, I will give a few examples. Fire bombing of Dresden, and Tokyo: 100,000 German, 100,000 Japanese.  Hiroshima + Nagasaki: 150,000 minimum. Fill in the blanks with daily bombing of Japanese/German civilians for months on end.  Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Laotian civilians: probably at least 1 million (we dropped more explosives on Indochina than the combined bombing tonnage of EVERY nation for the duration of WWII !!! - and even today, every other day a Laotian dies from yet unexploded US ordnance dropped 40 years ago). 

Now, the role of the civilian in warfare is suspect: we could have a debate like in Clerks regarding Return of the Jedi.  Were the construction workers and contractors killed on the second Death Star innocent workers, or willing tools of The Empire?? lol.  [edit: this website is an interesting comparison on US war casualties: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/casualties_of_war.htm ]

 

The point is not that the United States is evil, it's just that from different points of view we need to understand that some people think we are, that our actions can be seen in a different light.  To the close-minded, flag waving, self-appointed patriots however, America can do no wrong.  This sort of arrogance has crumbled countless empires in the past, we should take care that it doesn't do the same to us.

--

[sorry, I gotta say that we have an awful lot of really important things to worry about, and I don't think a few people burning the flag is one of them.  I love my country, not a piece of cloth]

--

OK, who started this!   All this political stuff is taking away from my city development time, haha!

[Rymac91 15]

well...I'm in too. I sould have mention this when I actully added it to my sig but I forgot.