Simcity and planning

[astro1347 0]

I don't know if I'm in the right place, but I need to start somewhere and this seems to be as good as a place as any.

I'm an architect in San Diego and I'm a member of the AIASD Urban Planning Committee. I'm chairing a group that's going to be putting on a series of charettes through out the county about the future of San Diego and the surrounding area.

One issue that we're facing is that it's very difficult to get the average 'man on the street' interested in participating in planning but that same man will be the first to jump up and scream bloody murder if he feels like he's been left out of the process and doesn't like what you've come up with. When you, as a planner, can get these people to participate they get easily frustrated because they don't have the tools to express their ideas. In order to address this issue I've been thinking about using Sim City as a tool to help non-planning/architect types to more easily show their ideas.

With all that being said, I've been looking around this and other websites, to see what's out there and how we at the AIA could best use Sim City in this particular application. To be honest it seems that the more I find the more questions I seem to have. There are so many mods and ad-ons that I'm loosing track of what can and can't be done. In a general over all sense it seems that what I'm hoping to get from Sim City is about 85% there and I'm hoping, through this forum, to pick up the remaining 15%. The following is a description of what I'm looking for and I hope some people here can help me and/or direct me in completing this idea.

First let me tell you my goals and a little bit of background that I think might make a difference and also to ask if these goals are doable in Simcity with all of the plug-ins, mods and ad-ons, if it is doable how difficult would it be to set all this up and if it's only kind of doable, how doable is that. I don't know if anything that follows has already been done or if this has been discussed before.

A vicious circle exists here (as well as so many other American cities) where the tax payers are suspicious of the city wasting money on things that don't work as well as promised. As a result the city tries to do EVERYTHING on the cheap so as not to burden the tax payer too much and as a result produces something that doesn't work well at all which makes the tax payers suspicious. pretty normal.

Being a pretty conservative town San Diego's leaders are terrified of the 'tax' word, and because of this they've (like I said) traditionally done everything on the cheap. If a piece of infrastructure costs a $1,000,000, but they can get half as much for $750,000, then that's considered a good deal. Our trolley is a prime example of a good idea funded so poorly that it can never work as well as it needs to. The infrastructure in our older areas is so old that development of denser housing can't be built because the water, electrical and sewer systems simply can't handle any more people, it's maxed out. Our freeways are parking lots but mass transit isn't an option because no one will suggest a tax. The city is $4,000,000,000 (that's billion with a 'B') in debt and has no real financial plan to get out of it, this city hasn't provided a balanced budget since the early 1970's and we're now sowing the fruits of poor city management.

Lastly is the issue that all current population growth studies show that San Diego is going to grow by a million people in the next 20 years, and some predictions have it growing to a city of 10 million by 2100 and there exists no plan of where to put these people.

So, that's a very brief summation of where we're at here in this city.

My hope is two fold, to reverse the flow of this circle so that ideas of the future of San Diego come from the tax payer to the leadership (thereby removing the responsibility of funding) and two, to educate the tax payers as to the cost of improvements and the cost of running a city.

I'd like to set up a Sim version of San Diego, not just of it's physical make-up but also of it's financial predicament, the state of it's infrastructure, traffic et al. Then take this sim of San Diego and make it easy for someone to download and install so the player can then play at three or four different levels of difficulty with each level designed for somewhat specific results.

Easy: This would just give the city and local planners insight as to what the people are thinking. Do they want to see the trolley go here or go there, what do they want to do with the Chargers and a new stadium. Stuff like that, maybe they don't even have to worry about money.

Medium: Now they have to start worrying not just about the budget, but they have to worry about the million people moving in if they like it or not. This version is to give us, the planners, an idea of what's really important to San Diegans.

Hard: The infrastructure is failing and is prohibiting development. Businesses that are attracted by the low taxes aren't opening up because they question the solvency of the city. More people mean more cars on the already packed streets that you haven't been able to maintain because you don't have enough in tax revenue. The city dump will close in 2012 and the new dump is 40 miles away with no rail to get there so all of the trucks will have to spend almost 2 hours between loads to get there and back which means you'll have to buy more trucks, hire more people and spend more on maintaining those trucks. I could on and on but I'm sure you get the idea. This level is to teach the average citizen what it is we're facing.

So, again, with all that said, is this doable with the current version of Simcity and the mods that exist?

Thanks so much for your time and help.

Chris

[screamingman12 30]

It certainly sounds interesting. The only thing that I know of is that a few of the mods (GLR and NAM being an example) can cause the game to crash if used improperly, and it would be hard to deal with something like that.

But from an idealistic standpoint I think its a great idea, allowing people to see the effects of "if I raise/cut taxes on X, then Y happens". The problem is that the simulator can't really function as a digital copy of San Diego, and "likes to do things a certain way", such as its complete and utter reliance on cars as a primary mode of urban transportation, regardless of the options available (realistic for Southern California somewhat). This can be overcome, but it takes some serious ingenuity to do so effectively.

But anyway, things you'll need:
Network Addon Mod (can be had at SC4D) with GLR
Census Repository Facility, keeps an eye on demand caps, as well as other things
plenty of park downloads, such as seawalls and other things, to show the effects of urban parkland
Plenty of interesting BATs to break the monotany of maxis buildings

[Yuu Caa Sim 55]

Oh. Wow. This is certainly very ambitious. How much work is needed to create this depends on how detailed and realistic you want the simulator to be.

The economics simulator in SimCity 4 essentially amounts to existing development influencing what will develop, modified by special buildings and taxes. There are of course ways to change this using plugins. If you wish to show the opportunity cost of choosing one plan of development over another in a microsystem, you might also have to modify some of the plugins, creating duplicates that have different attributes showing the costs and benefits of doing things a different way.

Let's say that there are two ways to build a park, one which is cheaper but will not provide as much benefits. You could create the different parks matching the plans you have, and then modify their attributes as such. This will create two parks that the user can choose between. The problem with this is that if you do this too much, the menus in-game will become extremely cluttered, which will not make the end user experience simple or perhaps even doable, depending on the speed of the computer. This can perhaps be mitigated somewhat by an interesting mod which creates a new window system to choose what to plop. Details about it are at https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2917.0

Money is also a bit of a challenge. Do you want to allow the viewer to see the history of the budget? That will be quite a bit more difficult, due to the differences in monetary value between real life and the game. There is also the problem of the fact that the game ends if you are more than 100,000 in debt, and having a negative value means you can't do anything except bulldoze and earn/lose money. You can however hold up to 250,000 in loans. That would probably be a better method of simulating the debt. You would also have to include a disclaimer about the conversion ratio between simoleans (in game currency) and dollars, because I'm pretty sure a fire station doesn't cost $250...

Demand is another challenge. In the game without plugins, growth only comes with demand and the right zones under the right desirability conditions. To simulate the region growing by 1 million, you would need a general idea of where the newcomers would go, and then provide the demand, desirability, and zones needed. Since demand does not come out of anything but existing development in the game, you will need a demand booster, such as the super demand ordinance. Since they affect the entire city tile, you will need to plan out the config.bmp in the region folder which divides up the region into separate cities according to this idea.

There is also the problem of computer space. City tiles are fairly large in size, and a whole region could take more than 100mb. You would also need to include all the downloads used in creating the game, otherwise the region will not work properly.

There are a lot of other things that need to be addressed, but this is a start. The game is actually pretty modifiable, but it could take some time to learn how to use all the tools to do so. In addition to the downloads that screamingman12 has listed, I would suggest the No Landmarks Mod, which removes all the real world landmarks shipped with the game from the menu. Helpful in cleaning out the clutter.

Also don't forget to find some stations for the GLR, since none are included with the NAM.

[ExiL3 10]

Astro:

Hi, you are facing a very common problem when it comes to planning. I am taking my masters degree in urban planning here in Oslo Norway, and I am also playing SC4 on the side now and then.

Although SC4 is a fun game and is great for ideas and just in general a good educational tool, my personal opinion is that the average citizen probably wouldn't gain much from it as a front for information. People want to know what their neighborhood will look like from their point of view, not a birds point of view (which is the standard ingame view). The game is sadly not advanced enough to show every detail about what and when things will change, aswell as before/after shot's etc.

Instead of using a computer game, which has it's limits, I'd rather use a quick and easy presentation 3D-tool, like google sketchUp and create the area from scratch and show the people who will be affected by the changes in a more interactive way. I.e. send the inhabitants link's to your website for a specific video of their area, showing what will be changed if the plans go through, and what they can do to if they disagree on some point...

This way you can have the inhabitants "walk" through the new area, and ask them for feedback.

I think it'll be less work, and far superior to what SC4 can manage to do.

good luck, hope you find a solution!

take care,

[Duke87 1,070]

The real problem is that SimCity is ultimately just a game. It's intended to be fun, not realistic... and is at best a crude simulation of reality, so it's not a reliable tool to use at all.

If you want to predict traffic patterns, you're better off using the gravity model and all that.

If you want to predict the public's reaction to things, you're better off polling people.

And if you want to create a visual model of proposals, you're far better off with 3D renderings. If you show an audience a plan of something you want to do in SimCity they'll probably laugh you out of the room.

Not to mention that I don't think people would take too well to hearing that their tax dollars are going towards paying for their planning committee to play video games.

Because let's face it, whether that's an accurate description of the activity or not, it's how the public will see it. And as I'm sure you're aware, perception is more important than reality when it comes to things like that.

It's an interesting idea, certainly... but I don't think it's really a good one.

[astro1347 0]

Duke & Exil3

Thanks for the feedback but apparently after reading your replies I haven't been completely clear about what I'm looking to achieve so let me try to clarify.

I'm in no way suggesting that I, as a planner, am trying to use Simcity as a tool to plan the future of the city. I'm not considering using it as a way to propose changes to the public or the civic government. I'm trying to find out if I can use Simcity as a tool to make it easier for 'John Q. Public' to get his ideas across to me, NOT for me to get my ideas to him.

Let me explain how these kind of planning scenarios normally work and the hurdles we're trying to overcome.

City planning is a process where you can't get many people to participate in the initial design phase, but everyone will show up at the end and tell you how everything that's proposed is wrong. Why is this? Well, it's hard to say exactly but lets face it, urban and city planning can be, in reality, quite dull with statistics in the beginning if you don't know how or why you're looking at those statistics. It's also such a huge and complex undertaking that it can quickly overwhelm people, and then they don't want to participate. Really, imagine yourself showing up to a real planning charette where you have to deal with a barrage of just some of the statistical, zoning and legal issues that exist. But as planners we need their support and we need their input if we're going to plan something that's going to be successful. So how can we get these people to get their wants, needs, and thoughts across if the traditional process of planning is off putting to the very people it's in place to serve? Well this is where I see Simcity working.

Instead of showing up for a 9 or 10 hour planning session where the public just gets confused and bored, let them spend time at home 'playing' with this game under a more friendly environment. If we do that way then we can let them absorb all that statistical information at their pace as opposed to slapping them upside the head with everything. Then after some time goes by we, the planners, can take their ideas, look for common themes and elements and take it from there. At some point after all the playing is done we could then get the participants together show them what we came up with and how some elements were developed from what they did.

So I hope this clarifies what it is I'm hoping for.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I think in general it is a good idea.

A problem there might be though, is the simulation doing things by itself that the user doesn't necessarily want just because of the nature of the simulation. The real life San Diego is the result of the real "simulation" and when you turn the simulation on the city may restructure itself according to the game's simulation. And even for normal cities in the game, if you let the simulation run, development will start to build on itself and changes that would be profound in real life would happen casually in the game.

Another problem along the same lines is that the user's actions might result in things that they don't necessarily want. In the game if you, say, demolish an abandoned building and put parks there, the surrounding land values will dramatically increase and you'll probably start getting high wealth construction there, as well as taller buildings. The user might just want a nice park there, not for someone to come in and demolish/rebuild the neighborhood for high wealth residents. And if something they don't like happens it might make them afraid of your proposals. I think that interviews and interpretation would be a big part of this in order for it to be useful.

But I think that it would be good.

[Martin892 4]

I'm not even from the US but I believe average San Diego citizens are smart enough to consider "extreme" events, for example dramatically increasing land values, as being part of the game and not realistic probibilities. I'm sure playing will help people to assess benefits for the real city as whole as a result of proposed measures instead of forgetting the benefits. I think it's a good plan to make people understand there is more to deal with than just their direct personal interest.

Maybe bad english I'm sorry.

[astro1347 0]

You have all given me quite a bit to think about that's for sure!

A lot of the responses seem to focus on the plausibility of the foreseen 'hard' setting and somewhat on the 'medium' setting. Assuming these two settings would be impossible to create, would the 'easy' setting be doable? Just having that would be of great value to me/us.

[nofunk 1,933]

I am a planner as well, and I applaud you for trying to find new and innovative ways to engage residents in the planning process. However--and I hope this doesn't come across as too dismissive--I don't think SimCity is the way.

The one thing you seem to stress in your original post is wanting to teach residents a lesson about taxes, yet taxes in the game are incredibly unrealistic. I can only assume that the tax you collect in the game are property taxes (though I'm pretty sure the game doesn't refer to them as such) and most local governments receive a large proportion of their revenues from sources other than property taxes. Even then, tax collection in the game is deceptively simple and revenues incredibly easy to raise. There may be some way to modify revenue collection to make it more difficult or realistic, but to my knowledge no mod exists today that accomplishes this.

Moreover, costs for infrastructure and services are equally unrealistic. It's no real challenge to keep fire and police coverage at their maximum levels, roads and highways maintained, and schools and hospitals adequately funded (and does local government even fund hospitals?), all the while making a comfortable profit. Yet in real life, cities are in a constant struggle to balance basic services and remain solvent. Again, I don't think a mod exists to alter this, and I'm not sure that even playing the game on "difficult" would correct this.

Finally, as Jasoncw mentioned above, demand for different land uses and development patterns are highly responsive to incentives in the game. Add a park to a struggling neighborhood, or lower the tax rate on high-wealth residents just a little, and mansions will start popping up everywhere.

Again, I think it's great that you are trying to think outside the box, and I'd love to see something like this succeed, but I think it may be a bit of a stretch. Still, if you do pursue this, I'd love to hear how it turns out!

[cityspade 0]

Hi Astro. I'm a planner too and an avid sim city player so I thought I'd chime in with my thoughts.

First off, great idea but I'm going to have to second nofunk here; Sim City is not what your looking for. While it is just a game, its a fairly complex one at that. I think many of the lay-people you're trying to reach out to would be just as overwhelmed with this game as they are with your statistics and reports. I'm trying to picture baby-boomers/seniors playing SC4 and I just don't see it happening.

However, this is a really, really great idea and I don't think you should abandon it. (I'm actually kind of jealous I didn't think of it). I've put a lot of thought into trying to figure out this very problem. The way I see it, the root of the problem has to do with communication. We planners have to convey relatively complex information to a large number of people that know little or nothing about our field. If you pursue this idea I would urge you to follow the golden rule: Keep It Simple. Like I said before, SC4 is not a simple game by any means. Especially if your talking about adding mods and custom content.

My suggestion would be to have your own game developed for you. Have it custom tailored for San Diego and the specific planning issues you wish to address. Make it playable in a web browser so anyone may access it. Keep the game play short and simple so you can connect with as large a demographic as possible. Sure this wouldn't be free, but I think it would be more effective than trying to use SC4. But with the economy like it is, I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to find a handful of unemployed software developers willing to do the job at a reasonable price (especially in your neck of the woods). Good luck with this!

-Planner Carl

[diamonddog_74 32]

Hi Astro,

I'm going to have to agree with the others here: SimCity is both too limited, and too complex for what you'd like to do. If you were trying to get young people interested in how planning affects their community, I could see how SC4 could work as a teaching aid.

Cityspade's idea of creating something that's very targeted may work to help people visualize changes proposed, but that idea requires funding that I doubt you may get.

Perhaps limiting your sessions to two hours would be more palatable for people to get involved. However, I don't know if it's very efficient to involve the public in design decisions. I'm sure you know that you'll never be able to please everyone. At some point, one person must take the initiative and make executive decisions.

Your bigger challenge is the cultural aspects that you mention in your original post. I lived in California four years; two years in San Diego, and two years in San Francisco. I was shocked by the provincialism that permeates the culture there. The fact that the state is $41 billion in the hole won't help your cause unless that's somewhat resolved.

You got your work cut out for you.

[cityspade 0]

Just to follow up on my last post...

When I read about what you're trying to do, I immediately thought of this little online game made by the Lincoln Institute on Land Policy. It’s called "visualizing density" and it aims to educate people about the relationship between density and smart growth. I think you could very easily use Sim City to explain this topic, but SC would just be overkill to just use it for that one purpose. Instead, the Lincoln Institute made this great little game that's easy to play and easy to understand. But best of all, it only deals with the one particular planning issue they concern themselves with. You can find it here -> http://www.lincolninst.edu/subcenters/visualizing-density

Also, I came across this Detroit Metro Times Article while I was looking for that last link. I didn't get a chance to look into the project, but it sounds almost exactly like what you're trying to do.

Oh, and one last thing regarding funding; I thought I heard something about some sort of president guy from Washington that’s been running the country giving out free money to stimulate some kind of economy or something...

 

[astro1347 0]

I'd like to thank you all for all of your feedback. I really do appreciate it! Also thanks to cityspade for the links, great stuff there I'm going to have to look into those.

I'm not sure what my next move will be, maybe I'll take a trip down to the local computer arts college and see if I can con some grad student into making me up a game.