Georgia and Russia basically at war

[Ntq€310 1]

i understand that both sides are very at fault for the start of this war, how russia handled it, with most south Ossetia having russian passports, it was really the eprfect chance for them. And with georgia just going into south Ossetia like that, that certainly didnt help. But what makes me doubt russia ultimatly is the fact that they started to invade georgia, when the conflict of 'protecting russian citizens' happend about south Ossetia.

[Yeah_Right 2]

we went in to make sure our people get out safely.

they cannot just kill our citizens like that.

[Ntq€310 1]

i understand that, but i would think there citizens will be safe now, so why is russia continueing the fight one, even when cease fires have been made?

[Yeah_Right 2]

We agreed to a cease fire, i do not know what cnn says, but he have not broken it. (i think )

what are we continuing to fight? we do not want their land. (russia is not big enough?)

all we wont is to make sure our people get out of georgia before georgia calls them seperatists and kills them.

we are just there defending them.

i do not know when or how many russian people are in georgia.

[pnorrell 4]

Just to point out - this is not about Georgia thinking of them as separatists or calling them separatists... They are, in fact, separatists.

They are groups who, with Russian support, took up arms against Georgia in the 90's, to forcibly exclude Georgian government control and expel ethnic Georgians. That's what separatists are.

[Yeah_Right 2]

The 'seperatists' are russian citizens living in South Osettia. Georgian bombing kills them.

on cnn, you see 'civilians dead' those are russian citizens living in Georgia, and Georgia shell them.

[pnorrell 4]

So far, the only dead civilians I've actually seen on TV, including on Vesti, are in and around Gori and the ethnic Georgian villages of South Ossetia and it was Russian bombing and Ossetian militias that killed them. If you can point me to footage posted somewhere showing large numbers of dead "Russian citizens" please do so.

[SimFox 804]

The issue that is that people's minds are poisoned by nationalism. On both sides - Georigian and those locals (Osetins, Abkhaz etc..)Not everywhere those differences are same large. Example with basically peaceful reintegration of Adjaria is a proof of that. Russia had supported it as much as other two. but the simple fact that Adjars weren't quite as determined to leave meant that Saakashvili's attempt to take control (again this was done with ARMY, but there hasn't been a single shot fired. Adjars just saw troops and had NO inclination to fight them. This is a basically biggest difference.

And it to speak about early 90s then one should go couple of years back when first DEMOCRATICALLY elected leader of Gerogia (Gamsakhurdia) proclaimed Georgia for Georgians ONLY! as an official policy. Not to be anyhow mistaken he said that "Osetins are not people, but SCUM that Georgian broom shall sweep away from the Georgian land!"

So would an Osetin then feel him/herself comfortable to be a citizen of Georgia?

It is also popular to speak here how Russia uses it's energy resources as a weapon. But how many of you know that it actually was Georgia that started the practice. when it decided to Freeze Osetia into submission in 92 (or about) when it switched off power to the region in the middle of the winter causing numerous deaths from freezing among local population who then had NO Other source of energy (well apart form firewood).

The main reason for the current conflicts in former Soviet Union or say Yugoslavia is that in the rapid and more or less chaotic disintegration there some unscrupulous and basically immoral people who used worst (and sadly most powerful) of human feelings and emotions to get ahead. And all that was done under the umbrella of "nice things" like freedom, human rights (very selectively applied).

West generally and US in particularly had once again proved that their prepared to close eyes to anything as long as it would fit their long term goals. Uschenko or Saakashvili aren't quite Samosa, but not too far away from him, and call them liberal and democratic is possible only with a great deal of stretch. But as long as they serve their role Eyes are closed on their darker side. But would they step over to the "wrong side" numerous "evidences" of they "corruption" etc, will immediately appear. If you want an example of such situation just look ad recent hystory of Kirgyzstan or Uzbekistan.

US in it's world policy isn't more moral then Russia, it is just more adept in manipulating press and public opinion. This is (to a great extend) based on better economic performance with logic (core of protestant belief system) if I'm wealthy I must be right. That's why rise of China (and Russia) is seen as a greatest challenge to "world order". This simply shouldn't happen. To be wealthy county MUST follow western model. at least that what US and it's allies were repeating to the rest of the world for last 50 years. And this is a reason why "Indian mirracle" has been promoted, pushed and puled in world press last 3-4 years - to create and Alternative to China's rise, to show Democratic country that managed to develop. But that fools only those who are desperate to believe in this idea (eg more or less the entire population of the western world). Side effect of such a campaign is that it pushes countries like China and Russia ever farther away from the West. And I don't speak of rulers (what ever you may think of them) but of population.

So, Georgia get itself caught in this big game. And made pay for ambicions of politicians in far away capitols... and for shortsightedness (or machiavellian logic) of it's current president.

[Ntq€310 1]

Yeah_Right i understand they want to get there people out, and that's ok, but over the past few days russia has advanced into georgian territory and has basiclly cuty the country in half, i just doubt that's just 'getting our guys out'

[belfastuniguy 18]

Russia signs up to Georgia truce

Moscow's troops continue to operate deep inside the Caucasus republic

Russia has followed Georgia in signing a French-brokered peace plan for ending their nine-day-old conflict.

But Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the withdrawal of Russian forces from deep inside Georgia depended on extra security measures being put in place.

He said Russian forces were encountering "problems caused by Georgia", and refused to put a timetable on their departure.

US President George Bush again demanded the withdrawal of Russian forces.

PEACE PLAN No more use of force Stop all military actions for good Free access to humanitarian aid Georgian troops return to their places of permanent deployment Russian troops to return to pre-conflict positions International talks about future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia Russia in control and on move Georgians rally behind leader Day-by-day: Georgia-Russia crisis

A simmering conflict between Georgia and Russia erupted on 7 August when Georgia launched an assault to retake its Russian-backed separatist province of South Ossetia.

It led to a massive counter-offensive by Russia, with Russia moving deeper into Georgian territory.

Scores of people have been killed by the fighting and tens of thousands displaced.

See map of the region

US-backed Georgia has vowed it will not accept any loss of its territory, but Russia insists that following the recent violence, residents are unlikely to want to live in the same state as Georgians.

The future of another breakaway region, Abkhazia, is also at stake.

Security steps

On Saturday Russian President Dmitry Medvedev followed his Georgian counterpart, Mikhail Saakashvili, in signing the truce.

Among the six points in the agreement, both sides agree to pull back their forces to pre-conflict positions.

George Bush on the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia

But reports say the agreement contains a provision that allows Russia to implement additional security measures on a temporary basis ahead of the arrival of international ceasefire monitors.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told reporters it was these security measures that would be implemented "first and foremost".

Diplomats have said that the UN Security Council is expected to vote this weekend on a draft resolution formalising the ceasefire agreement.

Russian forces are now far beyond South Ossetia's borders in Georgian territory.

They are reported to have occupied the central town of Khashuri, giving them control of all but one of the major towns on the highway across Georgia from the Black Sea to the capital Tbilisi.

And the BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse puts them within 35km (22 miles) of Tbilisi itself. He says they do not look like they are pulling out - and in fact seem to have dug in.

'Barbarians'

The US has called repeatedly for Russian forces to leave its ally's territory, and President Bush repeated the call from his ranch in Crawford, Texas on Saturday.

He said Mr Medvedev's signing of the truce was "hopeful", but said there could be no question that South Ossetia and Abkhazia would remain within Georgian borders - borders which were internationally recognised.

There was "no room for debate on this matter", Mr Bush said.

President Saakashvili signed the ceasefire agreement on Friday, after a meeting lasting more than four hours with visiting US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

Reports suggest Mr Saakashvili only reluctantly agreed to another of the plan's clauses - international talks about the future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

After the meeting he launched a bitter attack on Moscow, calling Russian troops "21st Century barbarians" and accusing them of war crimes.

He criticised the West for not granting Georgia membership of Nato, saying it could have prevented the fighting.

Russia argues its forces are there to ensure civilians face no threat from Georgian troops.

South Ossetia has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992.

quote>

[simoplis_mayor 3]

This is good news, lets just see if it will last.

Edit: I just saw this on cnn.com, Georgia is accusing Russia of cutting a vitial rail line.

[Yeah_Right 2]

ya we got our people out

but i dont know why putin still has troops there sorry

[Yoman3 5]

Ever consider that the motives weren't solely to protect Russian citizens? And Simfox, I read your post about the bias of the news networks a few pages back. I agree with you completely, but that said, Interfax certainly isn't an unbias source either

[pnorrell 4]

Originally posted by: simoplis_mayor This is good news, lets just see if it will last.

Edit: I just saw this on cnn.com, Georgia is accusing Russia of cutting a vitial rail line.

quote>

Right! To protect Russian citizens from the danger of Georgian rail transport!

They're digging in and preparing protected positions along the road between Tbilisi and Gori. They are in Kaspi and Khashuri and Akhalgori, expanding their presence on Georgian soil. They and their Abkhaz allies have already ethnically-cleansed 13 villages in western Georgia, seized a power plant (I guess to protect Russian citizens from the danger of Georgian electricity) and moved the border.

[simoplis_mayor 3]

Well I think I have found some good news. Medvedev says that the Russian troops will be pulling out Monday. Here

[TheSixCents 0]

Originally posted by: simoplis_mayor Well I think I have found some good news. Medvedev says that the Russian troops will be pulling out Monday. Here quote>

Because the Russian's are known for keeping promises!

[belfastuniguy 18]

Because the Russian's are known for keeping promises!quote>

Exactly...lets see what happens. Russia may have to bomb to capital of Georgia, becuase obviously Georgian democracy and lifestyle constitutes a gross threat to Russian nationals safety.

[Yeah_Right 2]

sorry i do not know our motives now.

i am glad our people are safe.

i do not know why they keep fighting.

i do not know of any motives.

it cannot be for more land (russia is big enough),

and it is not to get back at the georgians for breaking away (nobody cares about them lol except us)

[belfastuniguy 18]

Russia 'starts Georgia pull-back'

Russian troops are expected to pull out of Gori and other Georgian towns

There is disagreement between Moscow and Tbilisi over whether or not Russia has begun withdrawing troops from Georgia, as promised.

Announcing a "pull-back" from Georgia proper into South Ossetia, a Russian general made clear he did not regard the province as Georgian territory.

According to Russian media, some combat units inside South Ossetia were withdrawn to Russia during the day.

A top Georgian official said there was no evidence of any Russian withdrawal.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev earlier promised to abide by the terms of a ceasefire brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

We are talking about pulling back to the territory of South Ossetia Col-Gen Anatoly Nogovitsyn deputy chief of the Russian General Staff

The conflict over South Ossetia erupted 11 days ago, when the Georgian army tried to wrest back control and Russia sent in its troops to drive them out.

Russian troops remain stationed near the Georgian capital Tbilisi, with Moscow saying it has the right to keep some troops as peacekeepers in a buffer zone around South Ossetia.

The West has repeatedly urged Russia to withdraw its troops and France has said it will call a special EU summit if Russia does not comply.

Mr Medvedev, who was in North Ossetia to decorate Russian soldiers for valour during the recent fighting, has promised to "do whatever is necessary" to maintain security in the region.

"If anyone thinks he can kill our citizens without being punished, or kill our soldiers and officers, who are peacekeepers, we will never allow this," he said.

He added that Russian soldiers had demonstrated that they had recovered from the crisis of the 1990s and were now a fighting force again.

'Pulling back - not withdrawing'

"The pull-back of peacekeeping forces started today," the deputy chief of the Russian General Staff, Col-Gen Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said in Moscow.

Georgian TV has shown video of what it says is Russian armour pushing aside police cars in Igoeti, around 48km (30 miles) from Tbilisi, on 18 August

"We are talking about pulling back to the territory of South Ossetia. There should be no troops on the territory of Georgia."

Gen Nogovitsyn said that President Medvedev had agreed with President Sarkozy by telephone on Sunday on a "pull-back, not a withdrawal" of Russian troops.

Russian news agencies reported that several Russian military units, each mounted in five to 10 vehicles, left the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali on Monday for North Ossetia. The reports could not be confirmed independently.

A spokesman for the Russian defence ministry, Lt-Gen Nikolai Uvarov, told BBC News that troops were being withdrawn from Georgia and the process would take "days not weeks".

Confirming that Russia would retain its pre-conflict peacekeepers in South Ossetia, Gen Uvarov suggested that they would also be beefed up.

"We used to have there one light infantry battalion, less than 600 people, certainly it will be more soldiers but not just soldiers... [the] force must be credible to prevent any further escalation of conflict there," he said.

No move north

Alexander Lomaia, secretary of the Georgian National Security Council, told the BBC he had seen no evidence of Russian troops leaving Georgian soil on Monday.

PEACE PLAN No more use of force Stop all military actions for good Free access to humanitarian aid Georgian troops return to their places of permanent deployment Russian troops to return to pre-conflict positions International talks about security in South Ossetia and Abkhazia Day-by-day: Georgia-Russia crisis In pictures: Russians in Georgia Georgia left reeling

As of Monday evening, there was no sign of a withdrawal on the highway from the Georgian capital Tbilisi to Gori, a town close to South Ossetia which Russian forces now control, the BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse reports.

The BBC observed five Russian armoured personnel carriers, each with around a dozen men, heading in the direction of the capital.

However, there was no suggestion that they ventured any further than the village of Igoeti, where the furthest Russian checkpoint is located.

Military hostilities may have ended, our correspondent adds, but the diplomatic war looks set to continue.

See map of the region

Earlier on Monday, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili appeared to take a conciliatory approach to Moscow.

"Let's then start thinking, negotiating, how can we prevent the definitive estrangement of our two countries," he said in a televised speech.

HAVE YOUR SAY

The sight of GWB [uS President George Bush] complaining about Russia's "disproportionate use of force" is hilarious

Max, London

Send us your comments

Previously, Mr Saakashvili and Russian leaders had engaged in a fierce war of words, accusing each other of atrocities against civilians during the fighting.

Several aid agencies have complained of difficulties in getting access to South Ossetia, where entry points are controlled by Russian troops.

This month's fighting devastated towns and villages and forced nearly 160,000 people to flee their homes, according to the UN refugee agency.

An official from the 56-nation Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe said no agreement had yet been reached on increasing the OSCE's observer mission in Georgia.

Moscow has said it would support having more OSCE monitors deployed.

In another development, Russia has denied US reports that it has moved short-range SS-21 missile launchers into South Ossetia.

Nato foreign ministers are expected to meet on Tuesday to discuss the Georgian crisis. The US is backing efforts by both Georgia and Ukraine to join the alliance.

quote>

[simoplis_mayor 3]

Well looks like Russia is keeping to their word.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Well looks like Russia is keeping to their word.quote>

I wouldn't go that far...they were suppose to leave several days ago. Tanks and armoured vehicles are still sitting there on Georgian roads and in many towns.

[simoplis_mayor 3]

Ah, I dident hear that part.

[Micah 16]

They're reporting more missile equiped trucks are entering South Ossetia? Anyone else hear this on CNN?

[Red1530 1]

I heard it Fox News and I have a link to the story.  I personally think the russians are digging in.

[Micah 16]

Uh huh. Thought so. So I guess it just proves we can't believe what Moscow says anymore since they're obviously not pulling back.

LOL! I was looking for another old political thread in the CE forum that I was hoping to revise; however, I ran across a 3-month-old Russia-Georgia thread that belfastuniguy created. (Please don't revise it though... we already have this one). Interesting that Russia said they were simply entering to work on the railroads. Boy, was that a lie!

[pnorrell 4]

Keep in mind that Medvedev signed the agreement on Saturday, supposedly committing to an "immediate withdrawal." Here we are on Tuesday and there is no visible sign along the roads or the towns between here and Kutaisi that the Russians are going anywhere.

One funny note that I saw myself here in the city - there is a protest going on outside the Russian embassy. People are piling up furniture, old TVs, refrigerators, boots, toilets and any other old junk they care to haul out there, to protest the widespread looting that's been going on in Russian held areas. They're holding signs that read, "If you needed this stuff, all you had to do was ask..."

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[WolfgangAbers 0]

Look in what world we live. Where democracy?

Information war. To witnesses of tragedy on the life shut up on the American TV. This horror. A deceit and lie around. Money correct the world.

[WolfgangAbers 0]

Let's leave a theme of nationalism. The fascism does not have a place in our world.

Georgia - the ancient state which has the rich culture.

Let's recollect from a history:

- In the beginning of the first millenium Georgians lived in structure of the Roman (Byzantian) empire.

Further they were under authority of arabs, then Iran and Turkey.

In 1864 after war with Iran Russian empire has attached Georgia.

Georgia has given Russia set of great active people which used huge respect in Russia

The Georgian autonomy in Russian empire has been generated.

Also it was kept in the USSR. After disintegration of the USSR the Georgian independent state has appeared.

Russia has created modern Georgia.

Set of Georgians live in Russia today. They use the big respect and love.

As we remember from a history in many young states there are national movements.

With a view of strengthening the state of Georgia president Saakashvili has ordered to destroy other peoples living in Georgia - the Osset and Abkhasians.

In the modern world such measures are not allowable.

[Yeah_Right 2]

i can tell u that we will not pull out of georgia until our flag waves butifully in the wind.

we must punish them for killing our people like usa punush innocent iraq for killing wtc

sorry for spelling and englsih