Georgia and Russia basically at war

[sakarr 1]

Originally posted by: Karybdis

What will probably happen is that Russia will win the war, and claim both South Ossetia and Abkhazia to be independant until they can hold a vote on independance and then probably another vote on joining a political union with Russia. The rest of the world will not accept this, and consider both to be still a part of georgia, as will georgia itself. quote>

 

S Ossetia and Abkhazia already have voted and declared independence. yearsssss ago. there were even wars fought back then over it

[belfastuniguy 18]

Page flip bug

[Aontan 0]

Georgia makes call for world's help

Monday, 11 August 2008 22:41

Georgia has appealed for international intervention to prevent the fall of the country as Russian troops moved further into its territory.

'The Georgian army is retreating to defend the capital. The Government is urgently seeking international intervention to prevent the fall of Georgia,' an official statement said.

President Mikheil Saakashvili said Russian forces had taken control of Georgia's main east-west route, effectively bisecting the country. He urged Georgians to stay home and not panic.

Moscow snubbed a plea from the Group of Seven industrial powers for a ceasefire. It said Georgia had not kept a promise to halt fighting and was shelling the Russian-held region of South Ossetia where the conflict began last Thursday.

'We are working with an international community, but all we got so far are just words, statements, moral support, humanitarian aid,' Mr Saakashvili said in a televised address. 'But we need more - we want them to stop this barbaric aggressor.'

He called for an emergency session of parliament tomorrow.

'The situation in Georgia is extremely difficult as Russia is using all its resources to occupy the country,' he said, referring to what he said was the capture of a major road.

A Reuters witness saw Georgian helicopter gunships bombing targets near the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, sending dark smoke billowing into the air. A second reporter heard heavy artillery bombardments on the road north of the wrecked town.

The conflict has unsettled oil markets because Georgia hosts a key pipeline supplying the West. It has alarmed investors in Russia and has raised fears of a wider conflagration in the volatile region bordering Iran, Turkey and Russia.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy was expected in Moscow and possibly Georgia tomorrow for a round of diplomacy on behalf of the EU, though it was unclear what could be achieved.

Moscow appeared in no mood to compromise.

Russian forces advanced 40km from a second separatist enclave, Abkhazia, to capture the Georgian town of Senaki. The defence ministry later said they left the town after 'eliminating' the possibility of shelling South Ossetia.

Russian officials have said they have no intention of occupying territory beyond the two separatist areas.

A senior Georgian official later said Russian troops had seized the Georgian town of Gori, some 40km from South Ossetia.

Reuters correspondents saw no evidence of Russian forces in the town but saw a column of Georgian military trucks moving out of Gori eastwards towards the capital Tbilisi.

A senior parliamentarian, Nika Rurua, said later that Russian forces were positioned outside Gori.

Russian financial markets slid to their lowest levels in two years early today as investors panicked over the conflict.

Stocks later reversed some of their losses on suggestions by President Dmitry Medvedev that the war may be nearing an end.

Describing the fighting as 'a total onslaught', the secretary of Georgia's security council, Alexander Lomaia, confirmed earlier that Georgia was moving its forces from South Ossetia to the area around the capital.

Dozens of Russian planes staged raids on Georgia through the afternoon, while Georgia in turn struck Tskhinvali.

The city of around 25,000 people has been at the centre of escalating violence since Georgia launched an operation last week to take back control of the region.

Russia and Georgia have each accused each other of launching attacks, while aid agencies are now warning of a mounting humanitarian crisis, heightening international efforts to secure a halt to the fighting.

The simmering conflict between Russia and its small former Soviet neighbour erupted last Thursday when Georgia suddenly sent forces into South Ossetia.

Moscow responded with a counter-attack by its vastly bigger forces that drove Georgian troops out of the devastated city of Tskhinvali yesterday.

Georgia has since abruptly reduced the volume of Russian natural gas shipped through Georgian territory.

Background: Transit States

This morning the Russian military acknowledged that it has lost 18 soldiers and four planes in the conflict but gave no details of its latest operations.

Amid further clashes, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said that 'a major part of the military operation has been completed in South Ossetia. The conflict there escalated after Georgia launched an operation last week to take back control of the separatist region.

Since the violence began, the UN estimates that up to 80% of Gori's population of 50,000 have fled the city.

Russia, which has already moved battleships to the Black Sea, is now preparing to deploy 9,000 troops to bolster its forces inside Abkhazia.

It will send more than 350 armoured vehicles to add to what is officially a Russian peacekeeping force in the breakaway region, the spokesman said.

Moscow said it had sunk a Georgian naval vessel yesterday.

US President George W Bush said he had firmly told Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin that Moscow's offensive had been unacceptable.

Mr Putin said the West had mistaken the real aggressors for the victims in a conflict with Georgia over the separatist region of South Ossetia.

Russia has rejected the latest ceasefire proposal tabled by Georgia saying that it would not even consider a ceasefire document at present.

It follows a proposal signed in Tbilisi by Mr Saakashvili, offering a ceasefire.

Meanwhile, Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin has expressed his concern over the recent violence in the region, voicing Ireland's support for Georgia.

'Ireland fully supports Georgian sovereignty and territorial integrity,' Mr Martin said in a statement.

'I welcome the Georgian offer of a ceasefire and call on all parties to immediately accept this. Every effort must be made to keep the situation from escalating further,' he said.

Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0811/georgia.html

quote>

So it's not just about the breakaway regions now, it seems to be a full-scale invasion of Georgia - regardless or not of a ceasefire.

How long before NATO, the UN, the EU, the OSCE or some other acronym(s) become more involved?

[pnorrell 4]

Word is the US Embassy is about to advise all Americans to leave - previously just family of USG employees and others who wanted to go were evacuated. Crazy rumors going around here, including that the Russians are on the outskirts of the capital. I guess we're seeing the true nature of Russia's "peace enforcement" mission. Another rumor is that the well-known character Igor Giorgadze is being brought in to be installed as a Russian stooge.

Panic and fog-of-war... Hard to know what's really going on... Guess we'll see what tomorrow brings. The next post I make may be from Azerbaijan or Armenia...

[BurroDiablo 222]

This is unreal! Are they moving in to capture Saakashvili or something? Or send him into exile at the very least. I don't think Russia will leave until Saakashvili is disposed of one way or another... killing him will be out of the question however since that will turn the entire international community against them.

Thats interesting though Pnorrel... after reading the wiki on him, I seems like he was more of a Russian mole trying to infiltrate the Georgian government as to change their regime back to a Pro-Russia stance. Definitely sounds like their after a regime change

[belfastuniguy 18]

The actions of Russia are now completely unacceptable.

Its one thing to protect their 'peace-keeping' forces but it is another bombing apartment buildings, towns, airports and ports far beyond South Ossetia. Russia is clearly using force to make sure its neighbours are aware of what Russia can do. I hope NATO move quickly after a ceasefire and make Georgia and other former Soviet nations that seek membership full members of NATO. Had Georgia been a NATO member I seriously doubt they would have moved forces into the country and they certainly would not have moved beyond the South Ossetia border.

Russia does not like the fact it is no longer a dominant world power any more and it will use every opportunity to lash out.

[Herodotus 2]

I truly doubt this is about oil. Russia already has a large control over most of Europe's oil supply. I believe this is just a war of pure aggression. The Russians can take and totally control Georgia without anyone truly caring or willing to stop them. The days of Russian subservience are over, they are thinking ahead. Better to take out little neighbors now then later. The Russian economy and military have recovered since their fall and they are willing to flex their muscles again.

[Red1530 1]

Russian troops in Georgia advance

Georgia says Russia has deployed an additional 4,000 troops in Abkhazia

Russian forces have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, as the conflict between the two neighbours appears to be broadening.

Moscow said troops had raided the town of Senaki to destroy a military base. It later said they had left the town.

Russian troops also pushed into Georgia from South Ossetia and were now outside the town of Gori, Georgia said.

US President George W Bush said it seemed "efforts might be under way to depose" the Georgian government.

Expressing his concern about the "dramatic and brutal escalation" of the conflict, Mr Bush called on Russia to reverse the course it appeared to be on.

Russia's government must respect Georgia's territorial integrity and sovereignty US President George W Bush

The UN Security Council is currently meeting in New York to discuss a draft resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire.

Reports say that Russian troops now control many key bridges and roads across Georgia, leaving the capital, Tbilisi, isolated.

The current hostilities began late last week when Georgian forces launched a surprise attack to regain control of South Ossetia, which has had de facto independence since the end of a civil war in 1992.

Click to view a map of the region

The move followed days of exchanges of heavy fire with the Russian-backed separatists. In response to the Georgian crackdown, Moscow sent armoured units into South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Russian denial

Russia confirmed for the first time on Monday it had advanced beyond the borders of Abkhazia, saying it had launched an operation in the town of Senaki.

Later, a Russian defence official told Russian news agencies that its forces had withdrawn from Senaki and that they had forced out a Georgian unit which could have shelled South Ossetia.

Our visits to these hospitals confirm that local medical facilities are dealing with a large number of wounded and dead Dominik Stillhart Red Cross Lessons from South Ossetia Georgian exodus as fighting rages Diplomatic mood darkens Russia actions confound allies

Georgian officials also accused Russian troops of moving into the town of Zugdidi, near Abkhazia.

The Russians had issued an ultimatum to Georgian forces to disarm or face attack, and proceeded to occupy government buildings there, they added.

The conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened when Georgia accused Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.

"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency, adding that Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.

Russia's defence ministry quickly issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were none of its troops in Gori.

Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori.

He said the Russian army had taken up a position just outside the town after destroying a military base and admitted Georgian troops had fled the area without putting up a fight.

US President George W Bush statement on Georgia

Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said he regretted that events had developed "without our Western partners intervening more actively".

The head of the Georgian National Security Council has said that Russian troops now control many key bridges and roads across Georgia.

The BBC's Natalia Antelava says this leaves Tbilisi isolated from much of the country, and that has caused visible panic.

Residents of the capital have been queuing at petrol stations and in super markets, even though the government has promised that supplies of fuel and food will not run out, she says.

Nato plea

In his statement late on Monday, Mr Bush warned that Russia's action so far was endangering its relations with the United States and Europe.

He urged Moscow to accept an EU-brokered peace agreement that Georgia's president has already signed.

"I am deeply concerned by reports that Russian troops have moved beyond the zone of conflict, attacked the Georgian town of Gori, and are threatening the Georgian capital, Tbilisi," he said.

Georgia's President Saakashvili agreed to the EU deal, but it was rejected by Russia, which said any negotiations could take place only after Georgian troops had pulled out of the disputed regions.

ABKHAZIA Broke away from Georgia in 1992-1993 war De-facto independence not recognised internationally 2,000 Russian troops there sent as peacekeepers Georgia seized strategic Kodori Gorge in Abkhazia in 2006 Abkhazia rejected Georgian offer of autonomy within federal state Q&A: Violence in South Ossetia In pictures: Georgia in crisis Profile: Abkhazia Voices on the conflict

And leaders from both countries carried on a war of words, with Russia accusing Georgia of genocide, and President Saakashvili hitting back with claims of ethnic cleansing.

Mr Saakashvili accused Russia of trying to overthrow his government and claimed Russia was now in control of the majority of Georgian lands.

Russian officials denied they were seeking a regime change, and reiterated that they were responding to Georgian attacks and protecting Russian citizens - who make up the majority of the population of South Ossetia.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall says the further Russia penetrates into Georgian territory, the harder it is for Moscow to claim it occupies the high ground.

But, our correspondent adds, the worrying question is - does the Russian leadership care about its reputation abroad any more?

Meanwhile, the Red Cross said it has visited several hospitals in Georgia and on Russian territory and warned that the humanitarian situation remained "very serious".

"It's still too early to say how many people have been killed or injured by the fighting," said Dominik Stillhart, the organisation's deputy director of operations.

"But our visits to these hospitals confirm that local medical facilities are dealing with a large number of wounded and dead."

In other developments:

• Georgia's foreign minister is due to meet Nato officials on Tuesday. Russia has also requested an emergency meeting with Nato, saying the organisation should hear Moscow's side before making any decisions

• The US and several European nations have begun to evacuate hundreds of their citizens from Georgia

• Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland issue a joint statement saying that as "once-captive nations of Eastern Europe" they share a "deep concern" about Russia's actions towards Georgia

• The G7 group of developed countries issues a strongly-worded statement calling on Russia to accept the EU-brokered ceasefire agreement

• French President Nicolas Sarkozy is to hold talks in Moscow and Georgia on Tuesday

quote>

It looks like the Russians want to take over the country.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

I aways thought they wanted the whole thing. Their strategy reminds me of the Invasion of Poland with the rapidity of France. Now that they have the Georgians in two pockets it will be far easier to defeat them.

The next obvious target is Tblisi. We'll see then if Georgia falls.

[zane900 1]

Yet another peaceable, family friendly Olympiad.

[tyalka93 0]

You know what I'm thinking, Tom Clancy somewhat predicted this in the original Splinter Cell

[Goldfish4209 9]

Crap, if this grows into WWIII, I'll get drafted if I don't die.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Tyler26101 You know what I'm thinking, Tom Clancy somewhat predicted this in the original Splinter Cellquote>

Yeah, the original Splinter Cell did revolve around Georgian instability because of a Russian powerplay in the region.  However, there are so many doomsday theories that involve Russia that it's tough to say Clancy was being prophetic.

[Goldfish4209 9]

With all the confusion about what's actually going on, why have no spy satellites been used to take a peek at where all the troops are and who's telling the truth on what's happening?

[Herodotus 2]

This won't escalate into anything. Russia might be aggressive and expansionistic but they aren't stupid enough to start a world war.

[Heblem 600]

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=dtAwn1ATtcU

This game predicted this war, incredible!

[Micah 16]

You know what I'm thinking, Tom Clancy somewhat predicted this in the original Splinter Cellquote>

Yeah, all my friends keep telling me that. What did Tom Clancy say would happen next?

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Russia 'ends Georgia operation'

Mr Medvedev made his announcement before meeting the French president Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, the Kremlin says. He told officials he had taken the decision to end the campaign after restoring security for civilians and peacekeepers in South Ossetia. However, Russia has been highly critical of Georgia's leadership, and there were no signs of imminent talks. Before the announcement, there were fresh reports of Russian warplanes bombing the Georgian town of Gori. Witnesses told the BBC that several people were killed when a bomb hit a hospital in the town, which is 10 miles (15km) from the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali. See map of the region   A reporter for Reuters news agency said several bombs exploded in front of his vehicle, while a Reuters photographer spoke of seeing dead and injured people lying in the streets. Officials in the Netherlands, meanwhile, confirmed that a Dutch TV cameraman was among those killed in Gori and a journalist was wounded. And in Georgia's other breakaway region, Abkhazia, separatist rebels continued an offensive against Georgian troops in the Kodori Gorge region - the only area of Abkhazia still under Georgian military control. 'Safety restored' News of Mr Medvedev's decision emerged as French President Nicolas Sarkozy arrived in Moscow expecting to press Russia on the need for a ceasefire. According to a statement, Mr Medvedev told his defence minister and chief of staff that "the goal has been attained". Should centres of resistance or other aggressive attempts arise, you must take the decision to destroy them Dmitry Medvedev Russian president Profile: Dmitry Medvedev Day-by-day: Georgia-Russia crisis "I've decided to finish the operation to force the Georgian authorities to peace. The safety of our peacekeeping forces and civilian population has been restored. "The aggressor has been punished, having sustained considerable losses. Its armed forces have been disorganised," he added. The BBC's James Rodgers, in Moscow, said there is no sign yet that Russia is willing to engage in talks with the government in Tbilisi. Russia's Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, has insisted that Georgia must sign a legally binding document on the non-use of force. And Mr Medvedev warned that Russia would not tolerate any further Georgian military activity in South Ossetia, saying: "Should centres of resistance or other aggressive attempts arise, you must take the decision to destroy them." The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, near Gori, reported seeing sporadic artillery fire around the town right up until shortly before the Russian announcement. Our correspondent said there was no sign of Russian troops south of Gori, but said there were a number of Georgian military vehicles abandoned or burnt on the road outside the town.

quote>

It appears that the troops are halting so they can negotiate.

Sarkozy landed in Moscow for negotiations. I doubt if anything will come of the talks, since the two sides are so polarized.

After the talks are done, the war will probably  start up again.

- Patricius Maximus

[xloveispainx 0]

OK, most of u just saying that russia is agressor and launcher of the war, most of u say that Kosovo must be albanian. And i will say that u r just DON'T KNOW the World's History. Kosovo should not be albanian, cause no any albanians were there untill 19 century, because albanians are just migrants from iraq iran and some others south-east countries, and my will - will be to move every single albanian to it homes in iraq and iran! and take back all slovenian people there! cause albanians are barbarians they DESTROYED every christian church in kosovo, they kill slovenians when they want and doing what they want!. And about georgia - By the law of the UN, every country has the right to have constitution, liberty and other aspects of independence from other coutries. SO if South Osetia or Abhazia DON'T want to be a georgian territory they HAVE a FULL RIGHT JUST TO BE INDEPENDENT from THEM. And also, during this war no any single georgian citizent was killed by Russian forces, because we are not barbarians as georgians, we destroy only military objects and don't destroy the cities as georgians do!, do u know that for one day georgians destroyed with missiles 80% of Tshinvalli? do u knew that? NO because u don't, because nobody in the world will stop that georgian fascism, vandalism and barbarianism. So if u still think that Russia is agressor, so i will suppose that there is no clever people outside Russian territory... Sry guys but it will be FACT!. and last thing - under the agreement between Osetian Empire, Persian Empire, Turkestan Zhuz in 1668 - Georgian Empire should be eliminated and divided into 3 parts. The amount of Georgians should be only 60,000 people. This agreement was complited. But Russia was the only one who lost her part. So in matter of Fact i will say that georgia is a rebel Russian Federation State as Chechnya. PPS. President of South Osetia also involved into a war as Mid-Leutenant. and the ape Saakashvilli is crying and shouting HELP HELP like a girl, and staying not in his home country defending his "BLA BLA independence" but walking on the streets of London and screaming everywhere that his democratic ( read "police state") contry was attacked by Russians. And also my father is there and he knos much more than BBC reporter knows, BBC reporter even wasn't there, he is siting in his office and writing out his fantasies.

[Simtastico 0]

I must say I strongly disagree with you xloveispainx. Cool it would you.. Sure there might be some kind of historical reason for a conflict between the two countries, but acting like russia do is just wrong. It will strongly hurt the way in how I look upon russians and their contry in the future.. peacelovers huh? I thought the cold war was over and the berlin wall gone, but who knows what will happen know.. No more russian gold medals in the olympics please! hehe

[Micah 16]

xloveispainx, are you saying that Russia, in fact, did not hit a mountain resort with innocent people in it?

Look, what Georgia did in the beginning wasn't right. They were agressive in the beginning. I'll admit that. Georgia was the one that attacked South Ossetia first by sending most of its military there. However, Russia has taken it too far by taking over almost all of the country when the real issue was only in South Ossetia. Imo, both countries are at fault here.

[pnorrell 4]

Wow, xloveispainx... You've got so many issues so badly wrong I don't know where to begin. I hope one day you will get to know non-Russians and read press and other points of view from outside Russia and will reconsider your position. That kind of talk may be appropriate for an evening of drinking yourself blind and eating pickled cabbage in the cold, remote darkness of whatever Siberian hole you live in, but out here, in the world, you should be more careful what you say.

Sit back and learn some things I am quite sure you never knew before:

1. Georgia has been a unified kingdom since the 4th century BC. 

2. It became a Christian kingdom in the 4th century AD. That is more than 500 years before the establishment of Kievan Rus, the first Eastern Slavic state of any kind, and more than 1,200 years before the establishment of any state known as "Russia." That's a pretty big head start on developing a state, a national identity, language, culture and religion at a time when those we now know as Russians were a bunch of primitive pagan tribes.

3. Georgian missionaries are responsible for Christianizing the Ossetians in the first place and the Christian kingdom of Alania (the ancient name of Ossetia) was closely allied with Georgia in the medieval period. This led to Georgia accepting Ossetian settlers in the north of the country who were fleeing Mongol invasion.

4. For 500 years, those Ossetian settlers (both muslim and christian) lived in peace in Georgia, fully integrated into Georgian society and with complete freedom to use their language and practice their customs. Only when Russia annexed Georgia in the 19th century did tensions begin to appear and only in 1922 was any entity called "South Ossetia" ever created - a reward for Ossetian support for the Bolsheviks and a means of weakening and destabilizing the recently re-annexed Republic of Georgia. This is the exact same approach the Russians use today.

5. Georgia has traditionally been extremely tolerant of minorities. One needs only visit the old town in Tbilisi, where an Azeri mosque, an Armenian Apostolic church, a synagogue and a Georgian Orthodox church all sit within a few meters of each other. Over the centuries Georgia has been home to sizeable communities of Jews, Greeks, Russians, Armenians, Azeris, Ossetians, Chechens, Abkhaz, and others. Those groups still live in and participate in Georgian society today, with no trouble whatsoever, including an equal or larger number of Ossetians than live in South Ossetia itself.

6. Here's a good one - there are in fact no "Abkhaz" in Abkhazia! The entire Abkhaz population, which had traditionally been loyal to the Georgian king, was moved to Turkey in the Muhajir of the late 19th century and exchanged for Christian Armenians from Turkey, who were resettled in southern Georgia. The current population of Abkhazia is composed of Armenians, Russians and tribes from the Northern Caucasus who have a historical claim to the land going back only about 100 years. Again, all ethnic conflict is artificially manufactured by Russia, with the intent of destabilization, division and control.

Now - all of this has little to do with the events of the past week. I mention all these things only because you list random supposed historical information to support some sort of rightful Russian claim to control the Caucasus.

This particular crisis was definitely aggression by Saakashvili and was definitely wrong. I'm sure civilians were killed but you'll forgive me if I don't accept Russian press reports of numbers without independent verification. My understanding is that he was told repeatedly not to do it by the US - that he would be alone if he did. He did it anyway. But what he did was to loose his temper and finally take the Russian bait. I mean Russian-instigated provocation that has been going on for years. Being a hothead, he couldn't help himself and he finally snapped - playing right into Russian hands. Now Georgia is set back years - farther away than ever from controlling the separatist regions, farther away than ever from joining NATO, thousands of people dead, infrastructure and cities destroyed or damaged, the economy in ruins, the army destroyed, the population demoralized. Very soon, one way or another, Saakashvili himself will be gone and the Russians will have gotten exactly what they wanted - and exactly what they planned...

[GizmoCity 17]

My feelings go to those of need in Georgia, those who lost there houses ore even there dear family, friends ore lovers. I do not understand this bombings. Leave other country’s alone with there own politic problems!!

 

Russian Government, ever again planning to come to Holland? 
YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE!!, STAY OUT!

[bosnianman 0]

xloveispainx...Ummm what? You're explanation seemed to be tirade filled with misinterpretations, and racist undertones. You can have your say, but lets not use the words barbarians or other terminology used to belittle people, there's no need for that.

I will however say this about your statement.

1. Albanians who currently live in Kosovo are the descendants from Illyrian tribes, and people who have lived in the Balkan peninsula, longer than the Slavs (myself included). They have been the majority in Kosovo since the late 1800s, and were part of the Ottoman empire until 1913, when they were integrated into Serbia, and not Slovenia as you have stated, which shares no border or historical ties to Kosovo, other than it was both part of Illiricum, and Yugoslavia. So insisting that they are of Iraqi or Iranian descent is genetically and historically wrong. To say also that Kosovars' destroyed all the churches in Kosovo, is to discount facts, and physical evidence. While there was unease over the religious difference in Kosovo and Serbia, many ethnic Albanians are members of both the Albanian Orthodox church, and as well as Roman Catholics. To say that all of the churches were destroyed in "Serbia" once again not Slovenia, is to deny the fact that in Prizren, Pristina, Kosovski Mitrovica, and other areas have large Christian populations, and churches as well as monasteries in Kosovo have their foundational churches intact.

2. To say that if the people of South Ossetia, and Abkhazia deserve self determination and independence, then didn't the people of Chechnya deserve that same right, as well as Kosovo? To say that Georgia's response was over whelming in brutality, can't the same be said of Grozny's bombardment by the Russian military in both the first Chechen war and the Second Chechen war, which had caused more casualties in those conflicts than the total population that occupies South Ossetia?

3. To also say that reporters in the Western world, have been fabricating lies, and not reporting the truth as Russian television NTV, Channel 1, and others have would be very inaccurate. What about the Kremlin's strict control over Russian media following the rise of Putin in 1999? Ana Politkoskaya's murder, the firing of news journalists critical to Putin, or Medveedev? The barring and arrest of Gary Kasparov on multiple occasions, as well as Nashi and Yediniy Rossiya supporters brutalizing opposition supporters during various rallies?

Russia's push into Georgia was a calculated move, following weeks of fly overs by Russian Sukhoi SU-27s, and the paramilitary of South Ossetias repeated raids and incursions as well as captures of Georgian soldiers over the past two months was a coordinated attack and systematic destruction of the Georgian integrity. I find it highly impossible that just 4 hours after Georgian troops began their push to retake South Ossetia, Russia was able to mobilize 10,000 infantry as well as over 100 T-72 and T-64 tanks to a region the size of Rhode Island, in a Russian empire twice the size of Canada. This was also made further by the estimate that between 4,000 and 8,000 Russian troops entered Abkhazia in a matter of less than 16 hours after the fighting in South Ossetia had started. The final thing I have to say is how can you insist that no Georgian civilians were killed by Russian forces, the town of Gori, Josef Stalin's birthplace, was sacked occupied, and barraged from the skies by the Russian air force.

[Silur 3,308]

We must wait 2015 - nobody of us know any truth about it - only the great lie is around this ...

[belfastuniguy 18]

Wow, xloveispainx... You've got so many issues so badly wrong I don't know where to begin. I hope one day you will get to know non-Russians and read press and other points of view from outside Russia and will reconsider your position. That kind of talk may be appropriate for an evening of drinking yourself blind and eating pickled cabbage in the cold, remote darkness of whatever Siberian hole you live in, but out here, in the world, you should be more careful what you say.quote>

LOL Love it, I rarely agree with you pnorrell, however on this recent issue I have been, especially the above.

I'll reply in full to your post xloveispainx in due course.

DON'T KNOW the World's Historyquote>

Nor do you it would seem.

SO if South Osetia or Abhazia DON'T want to be a georgian territory they HAVE a FULL RIGHT JUST TO BE INDEPENDENT from THEMquote>

Anyone for a Chechnya debate??? People in glass houses.

And also, during this war no any single georgian citizent was killed by Russian forcesquote>

Really, well maybe according to Interfax and your 'independent' Russian media sources, but for every other person around the world, that is just pure lies.

President of South Osetia also involved into a war as Mid-Leutenant. and the ape Saakashvilli is crying and shouting HELP HELP like a girl, and staying not in his home country defending his "BLA BLA independence" but walking on the streets of London and screaming everywhere that his democratic ( read "police state") contry was attacked by Russians. And also my father is there and he knos much more than BBC reporter knows, BBC reporter even wasn't there, he is siting in his office and writing out his fantasies.quote>

Did your Russian media tell you these lies, how hilarious.

Actually Saakashvili spoke to the BBC (an free media outlet, I know many Russian don't know what that means), in Georgia, BBC Reporters have also been on the ground, unless they 'imagined' it using graphics,  blue-screen technology and movie style special effects. Also I don't think a Russian is best placed to preach to the world about what they determine a democratic country and what they believe to be police states

Oh dear, that recent comment has just given less informed individuals a very bad image of Russians, not all believe what total and utter bull that you believe, shame your one of the only Russians voices we hear on this forum...

[belfastuniguy 18]

In Other News

Georgia and Russia agree on truce

Russian troops have pulled back through Abkhazia

Russia and Georgia have agreed a truce brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and have approved the principles of a full peace plan.

The exact details of the proposals appeared to be still under discussion.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili suggested some details agreed by Russia were unacceptable and said the document needed fleshing out.

Earlier, Russia announced its military activity in the area was completed and witnesses saw troops pulling out.

But despite the diplomacy and apparent withdrawal, rhetoric on both sides remained fiery and analysts were predicting a long road to peace.

See map of the region

Fighting flared last Thursday night when Georgia sent its army to regain control of South Ossetia - a region nominally part of Georgia, but with de facto independence and where a majority of people hold Russian passports.

SIX-POINT PEACE PLAN No more use of force Stop all military actions for good Free access to humanitarian aid Georgian troops return to their places of permanent deployment Russian troops return to pre-conflict positions International talks about future status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia Peace deal all in the timing Gori smoulders after fighting Falling victim to pipeline politics Georgia's civilian emergency

Russia moved in forcefully, sending troops into South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway province. Georgian towns away from the two regions were also bombed.

Some 100,000 people are estimated to have been displaced by the conflict.

Mr Sarkozy, in his current role as EU president, held talks with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in Moscow for most of the day before flying to Tbilisi.

He held news conferences with both Mr Medvedev and Mr Saakashvili - with all three leaders saying they had agreed to a six-point plan.

But Mr Saakashvili suggested certain elements of the plan agreed by Russia had been "deleted".

Among them were proposed discussions on the future status of Abkhazia.

Despite this, Mr Sarkozy said the document would now be looked over by EU foreign ministers and members of the UN Security Council.

'Lunatics' gibe

Several countries, including the US, a major ally of Georgia, have been critical of Moscow's actions.

Reacting to Russia's ceasefire declaration, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said it was now vital for all sides to stop fighting, adding that Russian military operations "really do now need to stop because calm needs to be restored".

Earlier, Mr Medvedev called Georgian troops "lunatics" and accused President Mikhail Saakashvili of lying over a previous ceasefire agreement.

And tens of thousands of Georgians gathered in Tbilisi's main square to hear Mr Saakashvili claim that Russia was continuing its "ruthless, heartless destruction" of Georgian citizens.

Neither side's claims could be verified, but analysts said the inflamed rhetoric suggested they were far away from long-term accord.

And there are other issues likely to hamper peace negotiations.

Separatist rebels are continuing to fight Georgian troops in the Kodori Gorge region of Abkhazia - the only area of Abkhazia still under Georgian military control.

Georgia has meanwhile filed several complaints with international bodies over Russia's actions - including one at the International Court of Justice alleging ethnic cleansing.

Mr Saakashvili told crowds in Tbilisi that Russian peacekeepers in Abkhazia would now be regarded as an occupying army - ending an agreement in place since 1994.

And he also said Georgia would leave the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) - a Moscow-dominated group that includes most of the former Soviet republics.

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[BurroDiablo 222]

Since Ossetia is half Russian, half Georgian, I would agree that both parties need to come to a decision over the region instead of leaving it to stagnate and grow violent. Georgia doesn't want to let it become Independent, they've made that clear, but Russia does, they certainly made that clear as well.

To come to a compromise, surely if South Ossetia becomes an Independent state, shouldn't NORTH Ossetia be allowed to join them? I bet that would wipe the smile off of Russia's face

As for Abkhazia... all of the Terrirtory is Georgia so Russia should have no say in the politics of the Region. If they want to fight with Georgia, so be it, it shouldn't be Russia's call who the victor is.

[Red1530 1]

I just hope the peace can last for a while. However I expect that won't happen.

[Aontan 0]

Report: Russian tanks headed for Tbilisi

Wednesday, 13 August 2008 14:46

A column of Russian tanks and armoured personnel carriers are reported to have left Gori and headed in the direction of the Georgian capital Tbilisi.

Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers and military trucks were reproted to be seen about 10km outside of Gori heading towards Tbilisi.

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has already accused Russian forces of violating a ceasefire with troop movements around the country.

In comments broadcast by Georgian television he said that Russian occupying forces are continuing operations in Georgia despite the ceasefire.

Georgia has accused Russia of sending tanks from South Ossetia into the Georgian town of Gori.

The Russian military strongly denied any incursion, saying there are no Russian peacekeeping units or forces supporting them in Gori.

Meanwhile, European Union foreign ministers have agreed on an EU role in peacekeeping in Georgia.

The draft statement says that the Council believes the European Union must be ready to play a role, also on the ground, to support all the efforts, including those of the UN and the OSCE, for a peaceful and lasting resolution of the conflicts in Georgia.

EU foreign ministers were debating what consequences to draw from the conflict between Russia and Georgia over South Ossetia after EU president France brokered a peace plan to end the fighting.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy's diplomatic success may make it easier for the EU to set aside deep differences over who to blame for the war in the breakaway Georgian region, although some member states will seek symbolic sanctions against Moscow.

Ministers meeting in Brussels heard a report from French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner on the peace mission to Moscow and Tbilisi, and are expected to endorse the plan for a ceasefire and a return to relative stability in the volatile region.

They will also consider how to send in more humanitarian aid after Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ordered a halt to military operations yesterday and agreed to the French plan on conditions for a settlement of the conflict.

US-backed Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who incurred massive Russian retaliation after he sent Georgian troops to recapture the rebel region last week, accepted Mr Sarkozy's plan late yesterday in Tbilisi.

The conflict again highlighted EU divisions over how to deal with Russia which have dogged ties with Moscow since the bloc's eastward enlargement to embrace ex-communist central European states in 2004.

Poland and the Baltic states, wary of a resurgent Russia using its muscle to dominate neighbours, have condemned what they call Moscow's aggression against Georgia and want the EU to take a tough line.

While some EU countries have called for European peacekeepers or monitors for Georgia's two rebel regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, there is no indication Russia would accept such a move.

The 27-member EU called for an immediate ceasefire and urged Russia to respect Georgia's territorial integrity after fighting erupted.

Irish Rapid Reaction Corps on standby

Ireland has told its EU colleagues that members of its Rapid Reaction Corps are on standby to travel to Georgia to help assist in the humanitarian crisis there.

The Government has also said it will contribute €100,000 to the Red Cross to help its humanitarian operations in the region.

The announcement was made by Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Peter Power, as the special meeting of EU foreign ministers on the crisis in South Ossetia came to an end.

Mr Power said EU member states had emphatically and unanimously endorsed the peace initiative led by the French Presidency, and agreed to by the Georgian and Russian governments.

He said the plan would provide a basis for more meaningful negotiations to take place.

He added that on another level, it showed how the EU and Europe acting with one voice could be a powerful actor on the world stage.

He said the view at the meeting was that the EU should not get involved in apportioning blame.

He also said the possibility of EU peace monitors travelling to the region was only briefly discussed.

Mr Power said the meeting also addressed the issue of how best to get humanitarian aid into the region.

Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0813/georgia.html

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"Truce" in name only, it seems.