Pringles 'are not potato crisps'

[toxicpiano 125]

Potato only makes up 42% of the ingredients of Pringles Pringles, the popular snack food in a tube, are not potato crisps, a High Court judge has ruled. Their packaging, "unnatural shape" and the fact that the potato content is less than 50% helped Mr Justice Warren make his crunch decision. As a result, Pringles, in all flavours are free from Value Added Tax (VAT). Manufacturer Procter & Gamble (P&G) is likely to save millions of pounds as a result of the decision - with customers also likely to pay less. Spud impact P&G had gone to court to challenge a VAT and Duties Tribunal decision that the Pringle was subject to the standard 17.5% rate of VAT because it was it was "a potato crisp product", which are, unlike most food, subject to the tax. But the manufacturer had insisted that their best-selling product was not similar to potato crisps, because of their "mouth melt" taste, "uniform colour" and "regular shape" which "is not found in nature". It also argued that potato crisps - unlike Pringles - did not contain non-potato flours, and were not packaged in tubes. Pringles are more like a cake or a biscuit, it claimed, because they are manufactured from dough. Mr Justice Warren ruled that Pringles were not "made from the potato" - as set out in the definition laid down by the 1994 VAT Act. To be subject to VAT, a product "must be wholly, or substantially wholly, made from the potato". But he said that Pringles did not meet these criteria - being made from potato flour, corn flour, wheat starch and rice flour together with fat and emulsifier, salt and seasoning, with a potato content of about 42%. Taking the biscuit Separately, the Food and Agricultural Organisation and the World Health Organisation have decided - after seven years of debate - what qualifies as a proper tomato. The ruling means tomatoes may be round, ribbed, oblong or elongated, or can be cherry tomatoes or cocktail tomatoes. Other characteristics include being clean, whole, fresh in appearance, and free from foreign smells and pests. Earlier this year the European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled that the UK Treasury had wrongly imposed VAT on a Marks and Spencer teacake. Customers paid VAT for 20 years before the authorities accepted the product was a cake, which does not command VAT. Under UK tax rules, most traditional bakery products such as bread, cakes, flapjacks and Jaffa Cakes are free of VAT, but the tax is payable on cereal bars, shortbread and partly-coated or wholly-coated biscuits.

[psander5 198]

Thus begins the new "is it a... or is it a...?" debate! Remember Jaffa cakes!!!!

Anything that makes pringles cheaper is fine by me.

Now lets get to work on Doritos. What can we pretend that they are!

Madness

[fukuda 351]

But the manufacturer had insisted that their best-selling product was not similar to potato crisps, because of their "mouth melt" taste, "uniform colour" and "regular shape" which "is not found in nature". quote>

You don't usually find potato crisps in nature, y'know XD

[belfastuniguy 18]

Remember Jaffa cakes!!!! quote>

Yeah.......and I see them as biscuits NOT cakes...

I never thought Pringles were crisps...not exactly sure what I believed they were as never put much thought into it, but certainly not crisps.

[SC4BOY 21]

This is very interesting proposition.. when they first came out, the ruling was EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE .. and supported by P&G.. because the potato chip (crisp) manufacturers wanted the Pringles displayed in the grocery AWAY FROM the potato chips.. but the ruling was otherwise.. they were ruled potato chips and therefore to be displayed with the potato chips.. lolz

[BurroDiablo 222]

Didn't the Pringles guy die a few weeks ago? I'm sure he wanted his ashes to be kept in a Pringles carton...

Anyway, if these aren't crisps, WHAT ARE THEY? Muffins? Acctually, wouldn't surprise me if they reclass them as Lard since their so full of fat they give me Cheese and Onion flavoured blood.

[krbe 193]

They're apparently in the same class as cakes or bread, since they're made from dough. But I don't get why "modern" food is more VATty than the traditional varities.

[Easy Bakes 253]

So are they going to have to rename them snack crisps or something like that.

Probably cant call them a potatoe product being only 42% potatoe?

So are baked lays the same thing? Iv always thought those looked more like pringles the regular potato chips.

And as someone said how much corn is in Doritoes.

[Duke87 1,070]

Okay, um, excuse the American for being unaware of British policies, but what exactly is this "value added tax" that this debate is apparently started by?

Also, I find it amusing that it takes a court to figure out that Pringles aren't potato chips.

Because, well, it's obvious that they're not due to the way they're manufactured. Potato chips are slices of potato fried or, in some cases, baked. Pringles are made not by slicing potatoes but from potato flakes and, as they point out, there's a lot of non-potato in there, too.

And, well, Pringles, unlike potato chips, suck.

But that's of course just my taste.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Value added tax (VAT), or goods and services tax (GST), is tax on exchanges. It is levied on the added value that results from each exchange. It differs from a sales tax because a sales tax is levied on the total value of the exchange. For this reason, a VAT is neutral with respect to the number of passages that there are between the producer and the final consumer. A VAT is an indirect tax, in that the tax is collected from someone who does not bear the entire cost of the tax. To avoid double taxation on final consumption, exports (which by definition, are consumed abroad) are usually not subject to VAT and VAT charged under such circumstances is usually refundable.quote>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax

[Zelgadis 638]

It's an interesting story.

But more than anything else, I still can't get over "potato crisps!"

British English is just so cute!

ISF

[Meg 368]

Value added tax . . . I've never really understood that one.  It always seemed very odd to me.  "It is levied on the added value from each exchange."   Which brings up the question of what counts as adding value and who pays the tax when it is added.

So, let's say that I buy a bunch of cloth and I turn that cloth into toddler clothes and sell them.  Would there be a value added tax and who would pay it?

Gas, I mean petrol, is more "valuable" to me if it is in the tank at the gas station where I can buy it than if it is in the tanker truck at a dock somewhere.  So does the tanker truck driver add "value"?  On one hand, he does because he is moving it to a place where people can get it.  On the other hand, he doesn't because he isn't changing the product itself.

I've never understood where this tax gets levied and where it does not.  If I understand this court decision, Pringles are not subject to the value added tax because they are more processed than regular potato chips.

So, if I take a potato, slice it and fry it, I get something subject to the value added tax.

But I take a potato, turn it into flour, mixed it with other flour, and moosh it into a Pringles, I get something not subject to the value added tax.

and I thought the US tax code was confusing. 

Back when my Brit friends and I were sorting out the differences between UK English and US English,  we realize that US "potato chips" were usually referred to as "potato crisps" across the pond.   We figured it was because the Brits already used "chips" to refer to french fries.  At that time, Pringles were the only  "potato crisps" in the US that I could find.

I find it interesting that:

But the manufacturer had insisted that their best-selling product was not similar to potato crispsquote>

Well, guess what they call them over here?  or were the last time I read the can.  I'll have to go check.

[toxicpiano 125]

VAT is basically the same as GST in Canada. Difference is here the VAT is usually included in the price, not sprung on you when you go to buy something.

[SC4BOY 21]

Don't be too concerned about it... lolz.. its just another government way of putting YOUR money into SOMEONE ELSE's pocket..

[coolotter88 2]

what about lays stax?

[simdad1957 3]

Crisps (British English) = Chips (North American English)

Chips (British English) = French Fries (North American English)

Any Questions? BTW, what are they called down under?

[stratusmonkey 0]

Gosh. Somebody on Wikipedia has already gone and re-labled them as cakes. Which is pointless if you aren't in the U.K. Or trying to get them banned from the U.S. And I love that in the U.S. they are "potato crisps" because they're so unlike potato chips (i.e. U.K. crisps).

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: toxicpiano

VAT is basically the same as GST in Canada. Difference is here the VAT is usually included in the price, not sprung on you when you go to buy something.quote>

GST sounds like a different way of computing part of a sales tax.  The issue here seems to be who sells the thing, not what whatever happened to it along the way.

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Don't be too concerned about it... lolz.. its just another government way of putting YOUR money into SOMEONE ELSE's pocket..

quote>

You do have a point there.  

The part that gets me is, when I went to England the first time, I was told that I could recover what I spent in VAT since I'm not an EU citizen.  I asked how to do that and was told to do this, that, and the other thing.   I did that and, at the end of it all, was told I didn't have the proper form.

The second time I went to England, I made a point of getting the so-called proper form.  I was told to do blah, blah, blah.  I did that and, at the end of it all, was told I didn't have the proper signatures.  (never mind I got the signatures they told me to get.  They weren't proper.)

I now believe this process to be mythical.  so I have to agree with you when you say it's just another government's way of putting my money into someone else's pocket.

[belfastuniguy 18]

VAT in the UK is rather complicated.

It can really be descirbed as a comsumption tax.

Some things do not have VAT added to the price, such as children's clothing, postage medical care, public transport and insurance. Some other items have a reduced rate of VAT of 5% such as domestic fuels and electricity. The standard rate for applicable goods is 17.5%. As someone already mentioned this is included in the price you see in the shop and not added to the final sale.

VAT that is charged by a business and paid by its customers is known as "output VAT" (that is, VAT on its output supplies). VAT that is paid by a business to other businesses on the supplies that it receives is known as "input VAT" (that is, VAT on its input supplies). A business is generally able to recover input VAT to the extent that the input VAT is attributable to (that is, used to make) its taxable outputs. Input VAT is recovered by setting it against the output VAT for which the business is required to account to the government, or, if there is an excess, by claiming a repayment from the government.quote>

http://www.dyerpartnership.com/vat.html for some more information, specific to the UK.

Non-EU residents may seek to have VAT rebated, not always easy. But does happen. In my previous job we got a lot of customers from the Republic of Ireland and if they had an Irish VAT Number with them they could have VAT removed from the total cost of the sale.

[Easy Bakes 253]

I dont think you could call them cakes.

Cake

Potatoe Cakes

Baked Crisps

Not alike at all.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

VAT in the UK is rather complicated. quote>

Yes it is.  Thank you for trying to explain it.

Some things do not have VAT added to the price, such as children's clothing, postage medical care, public transport and insurance. Some other items have a reduced rate of VAT of 5% such as domestic fuels and electricity. The standard rate for applicable goods is 17.5%. quote>

17.5%.  which is already included in the price.  and then sales tax goes on top of that?

When one of my British friends was over here, she wanted to see a Home Depot.  As we were wandering through the aisles she would ask things like "Are they serious about that price?".  I'm beginning to understand why she saw them as very low.

But, getting back to the list of exceptions, it seems to be a reverse version of the "sin taxes" here.   The things that do not have VAT added seem to be things that someone has decided that everyone needs, but everything else gets VATted.  The "sin taxes" in the US are additional taxes that are added to certain products.  For instance, many states have higher than usual taxes on cigarettes or liquor.

Non-EU residents may seek to have VAT rebated, not always easy. But does happen. In my previous job we got a lot of customers from the Republic of Ireland and if they had an Irish VAT Number with them they could have VAT removed from the total cost of the sale.

quote>

I'll take your word on that.  The story I was told was, if I get the proper signatures on the proper forms, I could get the money refunded at the airport.  It's just that no one seems to know what is proper.    Question:  if I did get my VAT refunded, whose pocket would it come out of?  My guess would be the point of sale vendors since they seemed to be the ones jerking me around.

Oh, and I passed some Pringles in the grocery store today.  The package says "potato crisps".  Interesting that the company is using that labeling here but went to court to avoid that labeling over there.

On a semi-related note, the principal at the local middle school looks the guy on the Pringles can.  Most of the kids greet him with "Hi, Mr. Pringles" when they see him even though that is not his name.

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

I dont think you could call them cakes.

. . .

Not alike at all.

quote>

But the definition of "cake" is different over there.   What you and I would call a "cookie", they call a "biscuit".  What we call a "biscuit", they call a "scone".  What we could call "jello", they call "jelly".  What we call "jelly", they call "jam". 

I tried to tell them that jelly and jam are two different things.   The conversation got sidetracked when one of my friends referred to grape jelly as a "strange flavour".  I mentioned that the average American schoolkid eats at least gallon of grape jelly before the age of 10.  I don't think they quite believed me.

[belfastuniguy 18]

17.5%. which is already included in the price. and then sales tax goes on top of that?quote>

No. VAT is the UK's form of sales tax, so in effect the price you see displayed is the price you will pay at the till.

When one of my British friends was over here, she wanted to see a Home Depot.  As we were wandering through the aisles she would ask things like "Are they serious about that price?".  I'm beginning to understand why she saw them as very low.quote>

In general America sales taxes are much lower than the UK or Europe. Hence we like shopping there Also the exchange rates makes pretty much everything in America cheap for people from the UK. That's one of the reasons I buy some things online from American stores and have it shipped over...though the odd occasion I'm hit with a bill from HM Revenue and Customs...for taxes due...but detailing why would just complicate the situation further.

But, getting back to the list of exceptions, it seems to be a reverse version of the "sin taxes" here. The things that do not have VAT added seem to be things that someone has decided that everyone needs, but everything else gets VATted. The "sin taxes" in the US are additional taxes that are added to certain products. For instance, many states have higher than usual taxes on cigarettes or liquor.quote>

In a way yes. Not everything that people need are exempt from VAT, only some things. Though 'sinful' things such as cigarettes and alcohol are charged extra Duty by the UK government.

if I did get my VAT refunded, whose pocket would it come out of? My guess would be the point of sale vendors since they seemed to be the ones jerking me around.quote>

VAT Rebates will come directly from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. All VAT and other such charges is paid to them as collectors of tax.

But the definition of "cake" is different over there.   What you and I would call a "cookie", they call a "biscuit".  What we call a "biscuit", they call a "scone".  What we could call "jello", they call "jelly".  What we call "jelly", they call "jam". quote>

As a young child I always thought American children for some disgusting reason eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches (Brit. English understanding of jelly) but once I travelled there discovered it was peanut butter with jam...which is still horrible

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

17.5%. which is already included in the price. and then sales tax goes on top of that?quote>

No. VAT is the UK's form of sales tax, so in effect the price you see displayed is the price you will pay at the till.quote>

Got it.  Thanks.

In general America sales taxes are much lower than the UK or Europe. Hence we like shopping there Also the exchange rates makes pretty much everything in America cheap for people from the UK. That's one of the reasons I buy some things online from American stores and have it shipped over...though the odd occasion I'm hit with a bill from HM Revenue and Customs...for taxes due...but detailing why would just complicate the situation further. quote>

yeah, Customs laws are a whole 'nother can of worms.

if I did get my VAT refunded, whose pocket would it come out of? My guess would be the point of sale vendors since they seemed to be the ones jerking me around.quote>

VAT Rebates will come directly from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. All VAT and other such charges is paid to them as collectors of tax. quote>

Ah!  So that kindly gentleman at the airport is the equivalent of an IRS (internal Revenue Service) agent.   That makes more sense.   It's their job to remove money from our pockets.

As a young child I always thought American children for some disgusting reason eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches (Brit. English understanding of jelly) but once I travelled there discovered it was peanut butter with jam...which is still horrible quote>

Peanut butter and jello sandwiches would be rather disgusting.  But jelly (US English understanding of jelly) and jam are two different things.  Jelly is made from fruit juice and pectin.  Jam is made from actual crushed fruit.  Personally, I prefer jam since it's easier to spread. 

As for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches being disgusting, many kids outgrow their taste for them before they are teenagers.  But even adults are known to put peanut butter and jelly on their English muffins now and then. 

I was told, btw, that our English muffins are not proper English muffins since they come in flavors like blueberry and cinnamon.  (Americans generally do not have "proper" as a priority and wouldn't use the word in reference to muffins.   )

[coolotter88 2]

they sell sweet english muffins? I thought all english muffins were those salty flat biscuit things that had lots of air pockets when you cut them in half, like crumpets.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: coolotter88

 they sell sweet english muffins? I thought all english muffins were those salty flat biscuit things that had lots of air pockets when you cut them in half, like crumpets.quote>

Yes, the have air pockets in them (nooks and crannies, according to the commercials) but they come in original, whole grain, multi-grain, cinnamon and raisin, strawberry, honey nut, high fiber, low fat, and so forth.

[Easy Bakes 253]

I Still get the ocasional craving for the PB&J sandwich.

But I perfer jam( crushed fruit spread) on my morning toast.

[belfastuniguy 18]

they sell sweet english muffins? I thought all english muffins were those salty flat biscuit things that had lots of air pockets when you cut them in half, like crumpets.quote>

Yes, the have air pockets in them (nooks and crannies, according to the commercials) but they come in original, whole grain, multi-grain, cinnamon and raisin, strawberry, honey nut, high fiber, low fat, and so forth.quote>

English Muffins don't have air pockets nor do they taste salty (at least the ones that I've had). The air pockets are in crumpets, which are different from English Muffins which are delicious toasted with butter and Jam.

Then of course we have Muffins, American style, blueberry, chocolate and such. My favourite is white chocolate and raspberry.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

English Muffins don't have air pockets nor do they taste salty (at least the ones that I've had). The air pockets are in crumpets, which are different from English Muffins which are delicious toasted with butter and Jam. quote>

I don't think they are salty either.   I think EB has the right idea: pictures help.

This is (what we call) English Muffins:

Then of course we have Muffins, American style, blueberry, chocolate and such. My favourite is white chocolate and raspberry.quote>

An American style muffin looks like this:

We generally don't eat crumpets so I can't show you a picture of those.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Seems the english muffins you have are baked a little differently, at least the ones displayed. The ones I buy tend to have less air pockets in the mixture and are much smoother on the inside. Just a simple mixture/baking different.

I'm now in the mood for toasted muffins and tea

[screamingman12 30]

Several friends and I had a discussion about this before, we concluded that Pringles are basically dehydrated mashed potatoes that have been pressed and flavored. So no, they are not crisps in the UK sense, but they are in the US sense. On another note, has anyone tried the Paprika Pringles that they have in Europe? (I've only had them in Italy, but they probably sell them other places as well).