The Current State of the American Education System.

[confused04 14]

What is amazing about statistics is the INABILITY to establish CAUSATION. We can pull out billions of stats and claim anything we want regarding whats being taught and done in schools. Amazingly, some studies claim "there actually is no problem", others claim "its all about money" and even more say "its how we spend that money". But amazingly, we all know there is a problem and also that throwing money at crap doesn't work well (especially since we spend a lot more per student than most countries). Some nontraditional studies tried to study the impact of having "broken" families, particularly where the father is no present and it turns out that this type of situation is common enough and detrimental enough to explain the achievement gaps, particularly in urban and rural poor. Its often the case that suburbia can compete very well or even excel over other nations, but thats balanced by having significant portions of or youth living in conditions that are unrelated to the education system. Minneapolis also had an abysmal graduation rate of 60% but when taken into account social factors, its not surprising. Dallas has a much higher minority population than Minneapolis and recorded and even lower graduation rates. Given that minorities are unfortunately victims of inequalities of transformative wealth, this is where much of the achievement gap occurs. Another social factor that plays into this problem is that younger age groups tend to have more minorities (i.e. differences in reproductive rates tends to create greater minority populations in schools than in general society). As poor minorities who come from broken families go to school, this is going to have a significant and profound effect on statistics. Curing social ills is the only way to attack the education lapses. This is not to say that there are some improvements that could be made throughout our education system, but I do feel its taking a bad rap for conditions FAR outside their control. The US certainly needs to change its strategy in terms of education a videophilic culture and there are some schools with ridiculous amounts of students in a class room. BUT like crime, differences in educational achievement can be directly attributed to social inequities. Education is NOT a cause, its a symptom of a greater problem.

[coolotter88 2]

they have odor-free dry erase markers now.

[Sydney Claridge 106]

MODS: If this should go in Current Events instead, just move it there.

I am concerned about the lack of solid foreign language education in American high schools.  Many schools and educators don't pay attention to this issue, when they truly should.  We live in a truly globalized economy, and the lack of proper foreign language education hurts many Americans abroad, especially when it has to do with travel, business, etc. (I know English is practically spoken worldwide, but not everyone speaks it...)  Knowing another language would help many Americans, even in their own country.  However, in many American high schools, the teaching of foreign languages fails to bring proficiency to students, and they are unable to hold down a conversation beyond basic greetings.  Why is that?

First off, while some high school students are just plain lazy, I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to learn.  The true issue lies with the teachers and educators, and the methods they employ to actually teach foreign languages.

If you have ever taken a high school foreign language class, you will probably notice that many teachers focus on teaching grammar.  In reality, you learned your first language's grammar subconsciously, up to a point.  While some may disagree with me saying that grammar should not be taught at first, I think that if people want to be confident at speaking a foreign language, they need to get a solid base in vocabulary, with grammar coming in subconsciously; otherwise, I worry that they will become afraid to speak early on, because they will focus too much on not making mistakes, rather than actually trying to speak.

To further complicate the problem, many teachers seem to focus almost exculsively on reading and writing.  While those skills are important, teachers should not over-emphasize them to the point where they affect speaking and listening activities.  In addition, teachers need to properly use the target language with their students, and make the classroom conductive to learning the target language, through active (speaking and listening) and engaging activities.

Lastly, the issue of teaching too much culture should be brought up.  People need cultural education to better understand the target language (idioms, communicating concepts effectively) and to avoid any "culture shock" if they were to visit a country where the target language is spoken.  However, I feel that some aspects of culture should be presented in the target language itself, after a certain point.  For example, teachers could use a cultural reading in order to help students improve cultural knowledge, while at the same time, it would assist in a student's reading comprehension.

In conclusion, the way foreign languages are taught in many American high schools must change radically.  Teachers and educators must find better methods for teaching foreign languages to their students, and they need to emphasize important skills, namely speaking and listening.  If teachers and educators could pull together, and bring students what they need in terms of foreign language education, their students' success in the global job market could be much higher than what it is now.

If what you read intrigued you, feel free to join this Facebook group.  Thank you for reading, and please discuss this issue, and how it affects you.

[Nerd_Guy 4]

I agree with this. My school only offers Spanish and French. There are 3 Spanish teachers, but only one French teacher. I am also taking both lanuages to help myself in the future. However, most of the people take Spanish because they think it is easier just so they can write it on a college resumé. They do not take it seriously at all...

[remixedcat 2]

Really I think they should teach new languages in kindergarten. When you are very little you pick up languages much much easier then at an older age. 3-6 is the best time to learn. They should have French, Japanese, Chinese, Spanish, German, and Russian. I knew a little girl (age 3) who already knew Russian and some Japanese! She can converse with her mother in Russian!

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

EDIT:  There used to be a thread in Current Events about the American Educational system.  It probably dropped off the radar, but this seems like a great addition to that neglected conversation.

quote>

It would indeed be a great addition.   If anyone can find that thread, I'll merge the two.

I agree that the American educational system needs to be overhauled big time. Foreign languages are indeed being neglected.

High school is too late to start.   Children learn new languages much easier than teens or adults.  The key age seems to be age 14.  I know that I took some rudimentary French classes in elementary school and my French is certainly better than my Spanish which I did not attempt to learn until later.   (I'm not sure that watching DVDs with the Spanish subtitles on counts as "attempting" but that's another story.)

Part of the problem is that most Americans do not live near a border with another country.   In Europe people can trip over borders all the time and it's not unusual for the people on the other side to speak a different language.

If the people in (for instance) Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky all spoke different languages, odds are good that many people in all three places would speak multiple languages.  They are just too close together geographically, like European countries are. 

But the vast majority of Americans are nowhere near a border.  and most of the ones who are border with a country that speaks English in most places.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meg 368]

Right you are. As you said, this current conversation makes an excellent addition to this neglected thread.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Unfortunately, the problems in the American educational system extends far beyond just foreign language methodology. Most, if not all, subjects are taught in a rigid, crossword-puzzle style, with a lean toward passing the cursed Standardized Tests. It leads to a lot of useless memorization and no focus on application or critical thought.

With regard to this particular topic, it is very telling that in Europe, most educated people speak 2-3 languages, at a minimum. Most students are conversationally proficient within two years of beginning to learn. I have many, many European friends and know this from simple experience. One friend learned German, English and Polish by the time she was in 6th grade (using the US equivalent), and added French and Norwegian by college. Others know German, Polish, English and Russian. Yet others know English, Dutch, French. Yet in the US, one is hard pressed to find anyone who is fluent in anything other than English (and even then, I am being generous, lol).

IMO, the blame falls on everyone. The parents, most of all. The teachers, with their limitations and inadequacies, and the government for devolving education and promoting low pay in the arena of education. Why should a stupid basketball player make $5 million/yr and a teacher have to struggle just to get $40k? It is a shame. Our priorities are screwed up and it does not surprise me in the least that the best US scientists, mathematicians, linguists, etc all come from other counties (for the most part).

Okay, I won't blab on, or else I could rant for hours.

Barbarossa

EDIT:  There used to be a thread in Current Events about the American Educational system.  It probably dropped off the radar, but this seems like a great addition to that neglected conversation.

quote>

over the next  couple yearsTexas  is abandoning the TAKS Test.

Old article

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4804087.html

Newer article

http://www.ourtribune.com/article.php?id=7520

What was ever wrong with haveing the regular SAT's determine what you learned in school if they wanted statistics for that?or If you wanted to move on to a good college good SAT scores were a must. Do colleges even look at these state required tests? or do they look at thier own entrance exams?

[Duke87 1,070]

The reason children aren't taught foreign languages at a younger age is because they're at that point to young to really choose which language to learn. Which means you either have the district shove it down their throat or have their parents choose for them.

In my city, the upper half of the class starts Spanish or French in 7th grade. The other half gets to wait until high school, where there's those two as well as Italian and Latin. One of the high schools also offers Chinese, but the other does not.

There was a pilot program in one of the elementary schools a few years back to introduce all the kids to Spanish (the school where the ESL program is), but it got killed for lack of funding.

[I9113N 4]

I have to say that like Barbarossa said, the problem is not just about languages. While it is true that almost no school children in the US speak something other than English and Spanish, there are many other things gone wrong with the schools.

First of all, there are two types of "knowledge."

For example:

I know Sarah.

I know Chemistry.

I know Sarah: I know what food she likes, I know what her favorite dress is, etc.

I know Chemistry: I know what Chemistry is, I know the Periodic Table.

In English, these two types of knowledge are the same word. But, for example, in German, they are different:

Ich kenne Sarah.

Ich weiss um Chimie.

These can be applied to various examples, such as students attending medical school not knowing how a heart works. They know what a heart is (weissenschaft) but do not know how a heart pumps blood, or have never seen a heart pump blood. (kenntnis)

In today's schools, it is all about weissenschaft. There are less and less field trips, and when there are, they are rarely kenntnis-oriented. Students learn how grass spreads, but don't really know what happens or they have never seen it. Many students, especially boys, need this sort of kenntnis in order to learn properly.

Another thing that is wrong with America's schools is when they start. If you take a look at Finland, which is up there in the "smartest" so to speak countries, they don't start school until age 7. Here in America, children now start school at age 4. The children in Kindergarten for 4 year olds (4k) is not like the kindergarten many of us remember. There aren't many blocks, singing, dancing, or finger painting times. It is no longer half-day. Kindergarten today is sitting quietly and learning how to read and write. This is not what 4 year olds should be doing.

This brings up another point: Because these young children (especially boys, who are much more active at age 4 than girls) are going to school earlier, and are having to sit still so long, they get a bad impression of school. They think school is bad. This impression will most likely last their entire school career.

Have you ever seen a kndergartener before his/her first day of school? They are very excited, and really want to go. After a few weeks of sitting all day, the children lose this attitude. The begin to dislike school, which in turn causes them to lose the will to learn about things, which brings down their grades.

On the other hand, when you start school as a 7 year old, you are ready to sit down for a day. You are ready to learn to read and write. You can handle this sort of responsibility, and you like to learn.  I am not sure if the following is correct, but the Finnish students scored higher on a standard international test than same-grade American students, and yet they started school three years later.

That is all I will say.

[Kryptowhite 9]

I too have noticed how bad us high school americans are at Foreign Languages compared to our european counterparts.

When we have foreign exchange students come to our school, usually from germany, not only are the fluent, but they can speak the current "hip" words [can't think of what else to call them]. Kids in my class, we struggle to say "I have a cold" in german. And we have been learning the language for 3 years now. And it definetely has to do with the way we are taught. Learning words out of a textbook is no way to learn a language. You think they would catch on to this.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: I9113N

I have to say that like Barbarossa said, the problem is not just about languages. While it is true that almost no school children in the US speak something other than English and Spanish, there are many other things gone wrong with the schools.

First of all, there are two types of "knowledge."

For example:

I know Sarah.

I know Chemistry.

I know Sarah: I know what food she likes, I know what her favorite dress is, etc.

I know Chemistry: I know what Chemistry is, I know the Periodic Table.

In English, these two types of knowledge are the same word. But, for example, in German, they are different:

Ich kenne Sarah.

Ich weiss um Chimie.

These can be applied to various examples, such as students attending medical school not knowing how a heart works. They know what a heart is (weissenschaft) but do not know how a heart pumps blood, or have never seen a heart pump blood. (kenntnis)

In today's schools, it is all about weissenschaft. There are less and less field trips, and when there are, they are rarely kenntnis-oriented. Students learn how grass spreads, but don't really know what happens or they have never seen it. Many students, especially boys, need this sort of kenntnis in order to learn properly.

Another thing that is wrong with America's schools is when they start. If you take a look at Finland, which is up there in the "smartest" so to speak countries, they don't start school until age 7. Here in America, children now start school at age 4. The children in Kindergarten for 4 year olds (4k) is not like the kindergarten many of us remember. There aren't many blocks, singing, dancing, or finger painting times. It is no longer half-day. Kindergarten today is sitting quietly and learning how to read and write. This is not what 4 year olds should be doing.

This brings up another point: Because these young children (especially boys, who are much more active at age 4 than girls) are going to school earlier, and are having to sit still so long, they get a bad impression of school. They think school is bad. This impression will most likely last their entire school career.

Have you ever seen a kndergartener before his/her first day of school? They are very excited, and really want to go. After a few weeks of sitting all day, the children lose this attitude. The begin to dislike school, which in turn causes them to lose the will to learn about things, which brings down their grades.

On the other hand, when you start school as a 7 year old, you are ready to sit down for a day. You are ready to learn to read and write. You can handle this sort of responsibility, and you like to learn.  I am not sure if the following is correct, but the Finnish students scored higher on a standard international test than same-grade American students, and yet they started school three years later.

That is all I will say.quote>

7? I think 7 is a little late to start school,then again 4( head start programs) is to early.

5,5 1/2 or 6 is proabaly about the right time. I was reading when i was 5 before i went to Kindergarten. Kids books but i could already read. I do Agree with weissenschaft and kenntnis,

If i understand  the terms correctly  one is learning something by reading about it the other

learning by doing or actualy watching  how something works/grows/functions.There definetly needs to be more of the learning by doing teaching. Feild trips cost money so those are out.

[I9113N 4]

as could I. But apparently it works.

[fukuda 351]

Kids over here (Spain) start learning English at age 6 (I started at age 8, old education planning). However, the vast majority of young people are unable to speak it in a decent way. France is really a case on its own as most are unable to write their own language, let alone English.... The only countries that have some kind of decent English level are germany and nordic countries, but let's remember that transfer students are not an objective sampling of the population

[Patricius Maximus 236]

7? I think 7 is a little late to start school,then again 4( head start programs) is to early.

5,5 1/2 or 6 is proabaly about the right time. I was reading when i was 5 before i went to Kindergarten. Kids books but i could already read. I do Agree with weissenschaft and kenntnis, quote>

Firstly, Finnish children start school at 6-7, as far as I know. Also, that is not late to start school, as people can learn at any age, but the general area (6-7) is about the earliest that most people psysiologically and mentally suited to the kind of work that we are talking about (academic studies, c. 7 hours a day). Also, the test scores and other factors suggest that they're doing something right...

[Shingure 56]

I too have noticed how bad us high school americans are at Foreign Languages compared to our european counterparts.

This is because English is a defacto language and everyone uses it. In Europe in one country alone people may speak three different languages ( Belgium comes to mind automatically ) Due to this in order to get around it's key to know all 3 which in Belgium is French , Dutch , and German. There in Belgium , In the east they speak primarily German and Some Dutch , In the North it's Dutch , and In the south it is French. In the United States we use English , English , English , English. And to be perfectly honest there is no such thing as Pure English , There are so many different dialects in the US that it's really regionalized. Other than that you can count it as base-English.

Now they are trying to teach Spanish because many people who are moving to the United States Legally or Illegally are Spanish speakers and use it as their first language and use it in everyday life. I can tell you that my friends who Speak spanish as a first language , If they got the same qualifications as me , Would get more jobs because they are fluent in Spanish and English. Meanwhile , I'm Using Spanish as a Secondary. The sad part is that they are just starting to teach Spanish in high school when it needs to begin to be taught as early as kindergarden so that way , Instead of trying to make fluency occur at a rush in 4 years. They have all of school to do it and be fluent by 9th grade.

The United States Education system in short , Is beginning to show the signs of failure in terms of conforming to populations other than those who are English-Speaking and Are Socio-Economically sound.

[I9113N 4]

Originally posted by: Shingure

I too have noticed how bad us high school americans are at Foreign Languages compared to our european counterparts.

This is because English is a defacto language and everyone uses it. In Europe in one country alone people may speak three different languages ( Belgium comes to mind automatically ) Due to this in order to get around it's key to know all 3 which in Belgium is French , Dutch , and German. There in Belgium , In the east they speak primarily German and Some Dutch , In the North it's Dutch , and In the south it is French. In the United States we use English , English , English , English. And to be perfectly honest there is no such thing as Pure English , There are so many different dialects in the US that it's really regionalized. Other than that you can count it as base-English.

Now they are trying to teach Spanish because many people who are moving to the United States Legally or Illegally are Spanish speakers and use it as their first language and use it in everyday life. I can tell you that my friends who Speak spanish as a first language , If they got the same qualifications as me , Would get more jobs because they are fluent in Spanish and English. Meanwhile , I'm Using Spanish as a Secondary. The sad part is that they are just starting to teach Spanish in high school when it needs to begin to be taught as early as kindergarden so that way , Instead of trying to make fluency occur at a rush in 4 years. They have all of school to do it and be fluent by 9th grade.

The United States Education system in short , Is beginning to show the signs of failure in terms of conforming to populations other than those who are English-Speaking and Are Socio-Economically sound.quote>

I believe the reason why the US doesn't start teaching languages until high school is that they think everyone in the world knows English. This is true if you travel to Japan, Germany, Australia, the UK & Ireland, and Scandinavia. Another reason, probably the underlying cause that no one in government wants to say, is that the US can't afford proper language learning. As pointed out earlier in this thread, the average teacher struggles to make 40k a year. The schools themselves are already occupied with things like proper diet, recess, and keeping the school in shape. School budgets are generally getting smaller in the US, and I'm sure the cost of hiring teachers is going up, and the cost of buses, food, supplies, etc. The schools just can't afford a good language learning course.

But it is true that Spanish is only being taught because of the immigrants from South and Central America. If that wasn't, we wouldn't be learning a language in the first place.

But then again, I would hardly call the high school Spanish courses "learning." The students that are learning these languages (as pointed out earlier) cannot engage in real conversations beyond grreetings. Add that to the fact that most of the kids will never use the language in their lives because of poor employment oppurtunities, and they aren't really learning anything.

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

7? I think 7 is a little late to start school,then again 4( head start programs) is to early.

5,5 1/2 or 6 is proabaly about the right time. I was reading when i was 5 before i went to Kindergarten. Kids books but i could already read. I do Agree with weissenschaft and kenntnis, quote>

Firstly, Finnish children start school at 6-7, as far as I know. Also, that is not late to start school, as people can learn at any age, but the general area (6-7) is about the earliest that most people psysiologically and mentally suited to the kind of work that we are talking about (academic studies, c. 7 hours a day). Also, the test scores and other factors suggest that they're doing something right...quote>

That is very true. I do think 6-7 is the right age to start school. But apparently, the US does not agree. We start school at age 4, but there is a growing trend of holding back kindergarteners until they are age 5. Even then, it is in my opinion, too young.

[Easy Bakes 253]

If Kindergarten was what is used to be, Spelling blocks, finger painting and those types of activitys 4 or 5 would be ok.

But i suppose the trend was to start them as early as possible, even if that may not have been the best idea. you tend to turn out kids who never had any kind of real child hood.

As The Great Bill Cosbey once said

"The only thing Kindergarten teaches you  is how to say goodby to your parents without crying"

[Sydney Claridge 106]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Unfortunately, the problems in the American educational system extends far beyond just foreign language methodology. Most, if not all, subjects are taught in a rigid, crossword-puzzle style, with a lean toward passing the cursed Standardized Tests. It leads to a lot of useless memorization and no focus on application or critical thought.

quote>

Agreed.  Teaching exclusively for standardized tests affects a student's creativity, an essential skill in many careers.  Isn't the point of the education system to prepare students for the work world (and higher education in many instances)?  Teaching only to where students can pass standardized tests will ruin America, and the only option to sustain jobs after educated people retire would consist of encouraging people abroad to move to America, putting Americans at an obvious disadvantage in the job market.  A lack of people fit for higher education would also create strain on our medical systems (imagine a lack of medical staff in a hospital!), wreak havoc on the economy, not to mention running the education system further into the ground! (fewer teachers)  Unless the governments that make up these United States come together with a plan to fix our education system, I think our unemployment problems now will seem like just a warm-up for the worst.

Originally posted by: Shingure

The sad part is that they are just starting to teach Spanish in high school when it needs to begin to be taught as early as kindergarden so that way, instead of trying to [rush] fluency in 4 years, they have all of school to do it and be fluent by 9th grade...quote>

I can agree with the fact that children learn foreign languages better than adults (including teenagers), but new methods of teaching foreign languages exist where adults can approch this threshold, as well.  (the only issue with this is that students probably won't gain a native accent)  Ever heard of Total Physical Response? (TPR; sometimes a storytelling element is added as well, then it becomes known as TPRS)  When combined with common vocabulary words, TPR(S) could possibly provide a solid base for students to become proficient users of a foreign language quite fast.  TPR(S) can be habit-forming; however, with proper implementation, I feel that this could actually make for a good method to truly teach students a foreign language.

[duack 14]

I think its a better idea to start school at an early age than later on. In China, children start at age four and they're smarter than most other students. What I think makes students hate school is the fact that they eventually realise that school is boring and playing video games is fun. But I do agree that kindergarten should be about finger-paintings and the like, with progressively more work coming up.

Also SAT exams really do stuff up everything. In australia, we have a thing called a HSC were you get examed on the subjects that you did and that determines whether you get into a course at university or not. We dont have any interviews or stuff like that. Pretty much averyone I know thinks its a bad system, and that school doesn't really help you much at all in real life.

One thing I've noticed about funding though is that primary schools are grossly over funded while high schools are very underfunded. My primary school had air conditioners in every room, huge supplies for art, was always buying new computers and always had new sports equipment whereas my high school had no air conditioners, a shortage of computers, a terrible library and buses for going from school to field trips and sports fields were always overcrowded. Both were catholic schools, but the high schools cost more than the primary school. Why is the primary school getting all that unneccasary crap like art when the high school didnt even have basics?

Plus, teachers should get paid a lot more, considering that the entire future is in their hands. That's not to say that most teachers are lazy, but if they had a system where teachers get padi by how much they work, that would be better.

[sneakeypete 16]

One thing i like about Queenslands (australia) system is that your exit mark (OP) mainly is determined by the grades you receive throughout the last 2 years of school.

There is one giant statewide test, it has a little effect on your OP, but is mainly used to get a comparison between schools (eg, because an A from one school might be easier/harder than an A from another). This means that your entire highschool time isn't messed up if you throw a single exam or assignment.

Oh, and to those complaining about having to do homework after a long (heh, 6 hours long) day at school: it gets worse in university. (try 8 hour days and then a good 2-3 studying a night, and then add assignments.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

What was ever wrong with haveing the regular SAT's determine what you learned in school if they wanted statistics for that?or If you wanted to move on to a good college good SAT scores were a must. Do colleges even look at these state required tests? or do they look at thier own entrance exams?quote>

One problem is that they know the SAT test has long been somewhat gender biased (aside from questions as to whether it really fills its intended purpose in the first place).  Women on the executive board of the College Board company (who makes the SAT) wanted that biased to be fixed, but in the process, they wound up making the test biased towards females instead.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

(for reference)

7? I think 7 is a little late to start school,then again 4( head start programs) is to early.

5,5 1/2 or 6 is proabaly about the right time. I was reading when i was 5 before i went to Kindergarten. Kids books but i could already read. I do Agree with weissenschaft and kenntnis,

quote>

Firstly, Finnish children start school at 6-7, as far as I know. Also, that is not late to start school, as people can learn at any age, but the general area (6-7) is about the earliest that most people psysiologically and mentally suited to the kind of work that we are talking about (academic studies, c. 7 hours a day). Also, the test scores and other factors suggest that they're doing something right...quote>

That is very true. I do think 6-7 is the right age to start school. But apparently, the US does not agree. quote>

The US (or more appropiately their governments) don't agree on many things, but they cannot disagree with facts. The fact is that Finland is doing something right, to score first or second among PISA countries in all three categories: math, science, and reading. Are these not the skills that the American governments want their schools to teach?

I think its a better idea to start school at an early age than later on. In China, children start at age four and they're smarter than most other students.quote>

Ah, but to compare these figures with respect to starting age, let us use a country that starts later than 4, such as Finland. With respect to PISA scores, Hong Kong (China was not tested) is 3rd in Mathematics, 2nd in Science, and 3rd in Reading. In contrast, Finland was 2nd in Mathematics, 1st in Science, and 2nd in Reading. Taiwan was 1st in Mathematics, but  4th in Science, and 16th in Reading. Finland performed  better than the East Asian countries tested overall.

Also, what source do you use to back up the claim that they are smarter than most other students?

We start school at age 4, but there is a growing trend of holding back kindergarteners until they are age 5. Even then, it is in my opinion, too young.quote>

Well, American children are not forced to go to school until age 5, at least not by their government. Often their parents force it at age 4. But I agree with you that, with most people, age 4 or 5 is too early to do academic work for hours on end (which is coloquially called schooling).

If Kindergarten was what is used to be, Spelling blocks, finger painting and those types of activitys 4 or 5 would be ok.

But i suppose the trend was to start them as early as possible, even if that may not have been the best idea. you tend to turn out kids who never had any kind of real child hood.quote>

But I do agree that kindergarten should be about finger-paintings and the like, with progressively more work coming up.quote>

It would be alright from a workload perspective to do this at age 4 or 5, but the nature of a school as a facility where students do academic work doesn't fit into that. It would be better for them to have a healthy time to psychologically develop in a natural manner.

Isn't the point of the education system to prepare students for the work world (and higher education in many instances)?quote>

Well, I'm not sure what the real point of the school systems are (just look at their genesis in Prussia for an exposition), but ideally, an education is acquisition of skills which help people to learn, which in most cases will serve a person well once they cease being a full-time student.

In other words: reasoning and thinking are encouraged and developed in an education system. When it is suppressed, as in the case with many schools, it becomes a very non-educational quasi-indoctrination facility.

[belfastuniguy 18]

I agree with Shingure on the issue of European children learning more languages for the reason they live within a union of many languages and its important to have some knowledge of them.

Every school is different of course, some are fantastic at language education here in the UK, some regions of the UK are better also. It just depends.

I was taught French and Irish when I was in Primary 4 and 5 (ages generally around 8 and 9 respectfully). Then at Grammar school French and Latin were compulsory for 5 years and German and Spanish highly encouraged with a majority learning 3 or 4 languages. Chinese, Irish and Italian was also offered to those that wished to learn it. All of that in addition to traditional English language and English Literature classes.

Minimum of two languages is required under the Northern Ireland Curriculum, most popular is French, Irish and Spanish. Which is better than the wider UK and the reason NI has more students doing languages at GCSE and A-Level than anywhere else in the UK.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: I9113N

Kindergarten today is sitting quietly and learning how to read and write. This is not what 4 year olds should be doing.quote>

Speak for yourself. I had already started reading and writing by the time I started kindergarten. On my own. Nobody taught me.

I am not sure if the following is correct, but the Finnish students scored higher on a standard international test than same-grade American students, and yet they started school three years later. quote>

Okay, but there are many other differences between the two countries you have to take into account.

I'm not saying that starting school a bit later wouldn't be beneficial (hell, they teach things over and over in multiple grades as is), I'm just saying that correlation doesn't imply causation, so we can't assume just because Finnish students did better that the later school starting is to credit for that.

[SimRabbit 48]

Why do you always have to compare the US to other small countries??

Like broadband availabilty, we are ranked 20th not that bad, but who is ranked first?

Japan, why? its a small country with a large economy.

Same thing goes for education, Finland is a small country with a good economy. I expect them to do better on school than their American counterparts.

Just my 2 cents

[Danlikebooks 6]

I learned to read before I was three years old. Why? Cause my parents read to me every night, and because I guess that I'm just naturally smart. By four I was reading elementary school level books, and by five I was reading the boxcar children (the great old ones). I have this great memory of my Kindergarten teacher yelling at me for reading in the elementary school part of the library and then her being astounded when I read the book back to her better than most of the second graders could. My first grade class had three reading groups, Red, the easiest level, Blue, the medium level, and Green, the hardest level. I wasn't even in any of these groups, I read quietly in the corner while laughing to myself as my Red level counterparts stumbled over picture books. In the second grade, I was reading the Redwall series and by the fourth grade, I had finished all of the Redwall books that had came out so far. This story repeats itself until I graduated High School. I'm an excellent reader.

I speak English as my first language. I can understand spoken Arabic, but I can't read or speak it because my parents never encouraged me to respond back to them in Arabic. My school started foreign languages in the Middle School (either Spanish or French), and I was taking Spanish. In the seventh grade, we were allowed to take Latin, and I switched over. I'm glad I did, I love Latin and I continue to study it today. The way my teacher taught Latin was remarkable. From the first day we walked into that class, she bombarded us with Latin phrases and conversation. She didn't speak a word of English to us in class until the second term of seventh grade, when all of us could proficiently respond back to her in Latin. She would ask us something in Latin, and we'd have to respond back in Latin. Our only resource was a Latin to English dictionary and a basic grammar sheet. That was an... amusing part of my life.

What I'm getting at here is that some people are naturally gifted at reading. And that Latin is a damn great language.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Originally posted by: SimRabbit

Why do you always have to compare the US to other small countries??

Like broadband availabilty, we are ranked 20th not that bad, but who is ranked first?

Japan, why? its a small country with a large economy.

Same thing goes for education, Finland is a small country with a good economy. I expect them to do better on school than their American counterparts.

Just my 2 centsquote>

To a degree that's correct. Then again, American schools do not operate as one cohesive unit. Each state is different and within that state certain schools are different. Hence people use 'on average' or 'in general' when speaking. Indeed on a few occasions people have mentioned specific states instead of ALL of America.

Simply dismissing an arguement becuase your country is bigger is a flawed logic. Size is not always the most important factor. Rather investment, attitude to education and general ethos is a major player.

American universities are some of the greatest in the world, but they have achieved that through picking the wealthiest students and attracting high fee paying intellectually gifted foreign students while creaming the best of American school system, however, your public schools and general educational standards are some of the worse in the developed world. That's not America bashing, as some like to latch on to here, its simple fact and some people seem to ignore rather too often.

While the size of America is one factor, its not the sole factor in the current state of American schooling. To simply brush aside other issues will only further the damage to the system and prevent any informed debate on reform.