UN vs the Catholic Church

[saltandsauce 0]

barbarossa

you make an interesting point but general society was still scared of their body parts until about 20 years ago we live in a sensationalised world which then means after its been sensationalised then its no longer special or even interesting ask those who work in sex shops and they get bored of everything in it after about 3 weeks

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 1, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

well there is another point which is why does society say have sex with whoever whenever even only once is fine do you think thats right?quote>

No, I do not think it's right to have sex with whoever whenever.  For several reasons (disease and pregnancy among the obvious ones), I believe that is irresponsible behavior.

As with most things, I find the extreme viewpoints to be objectionable and not functional in actual practice.  I believe the best way to approach most issues is from a balanced midpoint.

The problem with a balanced midpoint is it usually involves a gray area that many people just don't see.  A lot of people do not believe that shades of gray even exist.

[patriots_1228 51]

To find the true definetely/point of "Sex" simply type in "www.dictionary.com"

[Insane Child of Bodom 1]

Ginger-Why are you being so bitter towards the catholic church? your acting like somehow it has wronged you...... quote>

We all know why his hatred of the Church is so deep.....its due to his alternet life style...

-- Edited. Please DO NOT post inflammatory comments! - Mike

As for the Church...My family has rich catholic tradition which dates back to our Hungarian ancestors....

I am not a church go'er,but I belive the church is only doing what it belives best....

Just like America is doing what is best for Iraq....

and again,,,,for aids....if it is spreading so fast...then stop the intercourse...

those people should not  get to preform intercourse more then once or twice a week....

EDIT...whoop...forgot about Abortion...best thing to solve the population probably and increase our knowlegde of stem research....

I don't understand why Abortions are illegal...sounds silly...if you don't want a kid its better to abort them then to bring them into this cold and jagged realm of life and end up killing the kid when you leave it in a dumpster cuz u couldn';t find an abortionist in time...

[simmaquay 0]

First, most of the responses being blinded by bigotry miss the obvious point. 

The Church is against contraception and pre-marital or extra-marital sex. If someone is having pre-marital or extra-marital sex, they should be using a condom whether  they are Catholic or not. (Heck they are sinning aready by having extra-marital sex aren't they?) 

The only reason they are not using condoms when they are having illicit sex is because they feel like it, not because its a "sin." (yet apparently free love is not). The only persons in this dilemna without a consistent position are those that are ignoring the ban on pre-marital sex, yet observing the ban on contraception.

This is clearly a cultural not religious problem. 

To all those anti-Catholic bigots on this board, a big F.U. (And Che Guevarra boy, of course you agree with anti-catholicism. As for your hero, he is still dead, thank God).

[patriots_1228 51]

um, i thought it might have something to do with his being gay and the whole church/gay ordeal, but i have this thing called judgement that i suggest you find. It helps you prevent saying things you will regret.

[jammy 0]

This is really bad for the people of Latin America. I'm sure religion is important to a lot of people but your health should come before religion, The church has to consider modern values and for the church to be indirectly responsible for 1,000s of deaths due to an highly infectious disease is ban out of order.

[Insane Child of Bodom 1]

if they can be anti catholic...I can be anti gay....

personally we all now I love the truth...and if the truth hurts...its not my problem.....

[saltandsauce 0]

the other point is that the church believes that life begins at conception, most mothers say when the heart is beating, if it goes to consciousness and rationality then that could be any age up to 18 (when your legally "responsible") so by aborting a baby that would class as murder however lots of denominations believe its OK if the mothers life is in danger by having this pregnancy there is a lot of debate that the termination deadlne should be shifted backwards to i think 24 weeks instead of 26 weeks (not sure but its lowering)

if everyone found someone and stuck to them and vice versa condoms would not be needed for disease control

[PhantomOwl 3]

Clearly this thread is devolving into bigotry and hate speech. I sincerely hope for his own dignity that Insane Child of Bodom was being sarcastic...

As someone who was raised a Catholic and spent my elementary and high school careers in Catholic schools, it's been my observation that many Catholics, devout or not, generally treat birth control methods as acceptable. This includes many who believe that sexual relations should be held off until marriage. This includes a number of priests whom I got to know personally over the years; they generally feel that JPII made a mistake when he announced the ban on birth control methods to include married couples and that this decision alienated a great deal of young catholics.

In all, this issue boils down to the doctrine of papal infallacy as much as it does to the actual concepts of birth control.

Then again, by the time I was midway through high school, the Catholic educational system had turned me into an atheist. So perhaps my views are jaded, but they're the impression I have of the issue.

[Mikeaut1 261]

Again... the author of this thread is correct in saying that the flaming should be saved for somewhere else. Come on guys.

There are nasty comments especially from my post upwards on the start of this new page. I suggest we end the derogatory comments that can get people upset, to prevent a huge argument that will only end up in the closing of this thread.

Let's keep it on track, and argue/discuss civilly. Thanks.

[Palpatine001 57]

Ok after 16 or so hours I come back and see this

For the most part a civil debate is going and is in fact some what mature then at www.nzherald.co.nz however some posts in here are border line


Now I know both sides of the debate can get rather heated but remember

NO Anti-whatever BASHING or FLAMING in this thread (or anywhere in ST)  - SAVE IT for MSN and AIM

The admins, moderators and myself are watching

So comment on the topic, not each other


Palpatine001

[Insane Child of Bodom 1]

Thank you...once the anti catholic dies down...then all the flaming will subside...one the fire is gone...

we can drink lemonaide....lol

but none the less some of the "church is so old/out of touch" comments are really ignorant...

of course the Church is old,but that doesn't make it out of touch....but i agree it needs a better position on Abortion...

[GMT 389]

Originally posted by: Insane Child of Bodom Thank you...once the anti catholic dies down...then all the flaming will subside...one the fire is gone...

we can drink lemonaide....lol

but none the less some of the "church is so old/out of touch" comments are really ignorant...

of course the Church is old,but that doesn't make it out of touch....but i agree it needs a better position on Abortion...quote>

I think this depends on the particular church.

the catholic church is an old and pretty much conservative church, and conservative always goes hand in hand with being out of touch.

the protestant church for example is much more libaral and therefore closer to the zeitgeist (at least where i live), but thats redundant for this topic here since its about the catholic church.

i think the problem here is that the catholic church has a power structure comparable to the one of a state, so whats done and whats not is determined by its "government" with the pope as the president, and the council.

its not like in the protestant church (or other liberal christian churches) where the bible builds the base or better a frame, and its up to you how you interpret it; in the catholic church the above mentioned "government" kinda predicts the interpretation.

this is, unfortunately, not always compatible with the basic meanings of the christianity, but its like a law because the pope said so and he's the one and only authority in the catholic church.

imho the catholic church still depends too much on the remnants of the secular power it had back in medieval times.

[dalmatianfan2020 1]

I don't think it's right to try and force our "modern values" on the Catholic Church. Their position is that condoms are bad and immoral, along with sex before marriage. Woo hoo! That's their belief and it is their right to believe such things.

In the interest of combating AIDS, if the Latin Americans call themselves Catholic, then abstinence is the only way to avoid spreading the disease. That's just the way it is. If they are Catholic, then they should follow Catholic teachings. I think it is perfectly reasonable for the Catholic church to say that these alleged Catholics are wrong to use condoms.

For those who are not Catholic, then go and use a condom!! yay condoms! You are not Catholic, thus, don't concern yourself with Vatican teachings.

For those Catholics who feel so strongly about condom use, why the hell are you still Catholic? Go to another denomination! There are plenty of them. Try the Episcopal Church, which I describe as "Half the Catholic, twice the fun!" We have gay marraige and condoms and all sorts of other fun stuff.

One thing that also bothers me is the "Social Catholic" movement. Catholicism is not a race, it is a religion.

Pledge your allegiance: Catholic Church or Modern Society

Choose quickly; we need to get this AIDS thing over with

[ILL Tonkso 1,239]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

well there is another point which is why does society say have sex with whoever whenever even only once is fine do you think thats right?quote>

No, I do not think it's right to have sex with whoever whenever.  For several reasons (disease and pregnancy among the obvious ones), I believe that is irresponsible behavior.quote>

I totally agree with you there, whilst i have no issue with pre-marital sex. Ido believe sex should be confined to serious relationships, i could never imagine myself meeting a random girl in a club then, and i qoute, 'shagging' her. I believe its sleazy (hence i added the rude slang). Unlike a friend of mine who has slept with about 16 girls, i dont agree with his behaviour.

Sex to me is a sign of commitment to a relationship, and moving back on topic, contraception plays a vital role here because a couple can share their love without the risk of unwanted pregnancy, after all, sex is an expression of love aswell as a biological method of reproduction.

I do not agree that the catholic church should be allowed to deny people of the ability to express their love in such a manner, as love is only a positive thing.

Sorry if i ranted on about this but the modern social attitude towards sex is something that really bugs me. I honestly believe it should be confined to serious couples, though i suppose if people wish to sleep with a large number of people, its their life, ergo their choice.

Edit: I might also add, that many people do mock me for my opinions listed above in real life. Some even believe it an immature belief....

[Mikeaut1 261]

I believe in abstinence, similarly to what Tonks has written above. Save sex for marriage/serious relationships!!

[ShortStraw 1]

It's a pretty big deal for the RCC to change a doctrine as fundamental as their stance on birth control or "illicit" sex.  I wouldn't expect them to come dancing into the rainbow bright world of "everything is ok because it's your right to have fun" anytime soon.  And even though I completely agree with Skigeeks first post, I also wonder why a catholic who is already breaking the rules about premarital sex and/or adultery would suddenly be too devout and faithful to break the rules about birth control.

The RCC policy on birth control is no more or less harmful than its always been.  The people of third world nations do not have a significant AIDS problem because they're too devout to use condoms.  I've seen Africa mentioned here,  I'm pretty sure Africa is not predominately catholic and I think they still have a problem with AIDS.  I can't really say why exactly AIDS is a huge problem in latin America but I doubt that the RCC is primarily responsible.

[coolotter88 2]

but you only get one chance in life to do it when everything is in it's place and not used...*shifty eyes*

it's a nice evolutionary trap to make sex,well, fun, so we do it over and over again...with lots of pretty women...so we can have lots of babies...yep, we're all animals in need of spreading those genes around.

[Mikeaut1 261]

Originally posted by: coolotter88 but you only get one chance in life to do it when everything is in it's place and not used...*shifty eyes*

it's a nice evolutionary trap to make sex,well, fun, so we do it over and over again...with lots of pretty women...so we can have lots of babies...yep, we're all animals in need of spreading those genes around.quote>

Uh, you can make lots of little babies, sure. But will you be a responsible parent to look after all of them?

[patriots_1228 51]

dalmatian-It appears everyones under the impression that we will do whatever the pope says. if the pope tells me a condom is sinful, so what. Id rather disobey the pope then end up with a bunch of children im not able to take care of, or a STD.

[coolotter88 2]

no, that will be the woman's job. but of course, that was for a much more primitive day.

[kurtvedder 4]

Originally posted by: patriots_1228 dalmatian-It appears everyones under the impression that we will do whatever the pope says. if the pope tells me a condom is sinful, so what. Id rather disobey the pope then end up with a bunch of children im not able to take care of, or a STD.quote>

 

"I do not speak for my church on public matters; and the church does not speak for me." - JFK

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso

Sex to me is a sign of commitment to a relationship, and moving back on topic, contraception plays a vital role here because a couple can share their love without the risk of unwanted pregnancy, after all, sex is an expression of love aswell as a biological method of reproduction.quote>

I agree.  There are many problems with casual sex.  Sex between people in a committed relationship is different.

I do not agree that the catholic church should be allowed to deny people of the ability to express their love in such a manner, as love is only a positive thing.quote>

"be allowed to deny"?     Who, exactly, is going to "not allow" any major religion to dictate to its followers?

I find this to be an interesting concept.  Basically it's saying that this religion's teachings is harmful to the planet and/or the population, therefore it should not be permitted to continue.  I imagine we can all list a few examples of where we think that is true but, as far as I know, the planet has no police who get to decide what religions are "allowed" to preach.   Sounds like a case of "the cure being worse than the disease" if you ask me.

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

  And even though I completely agree with Skigeeks first post, . . . quote>

Thank you

. . . I also wonder why a catholic who is already breaking the rules about premarital sex and/or adultery would suddenly be too devout and faithful to break the rules about birth control. quote>

An excellent question.

I suspect much of it is the difference between "oops, I sinned" and "well, yeah, I was planning to sin so I had a condom with me."

[SpecialEddie 3]

As a Catholic, I don't agree with this condom ban. And btw, I'm not insulted by GingerBlokey's post, though I can see how some people might. 

Anyway, if it comes to the point where you have to decide whether you have to use a condom or not, you're probably committing an act frowned upon by the church in the first place (premarital sex). Hell, you're already committing sin--what more is a condom?

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: kurtvedder

Why is it that everyone who is not a Catholic, always criticise the church? I say if you are not a Catholic then you should keep quiet quote>

Just wondering . . . my parents both went to Catholic school.  I was raised Catholic for the first 12 years of my life, at which point my family left the church because my parents left it was backing out of the Vatican II reforms.  So, in your view, am I entitled to have an opinion or not?

quote>

How about the rest of us who could be Catholic and choose not to be?

EDIT: SpecialEddie - five more years in purgatory.

[hamsterTK 93]

Why is it that everyone who is not a Catholic, always criticise the church? I say if you are not a Catholic then you should keep quietquote>

whenever a group has a goal of changing public policy, I think the general public has every right to speak up about it.

[ILL Tonkso 1,239]

I do not agree that the catholic church should be allowed to deny people of the ability to express their love in such a manner, as love is only a positive thing.quote>

"be allowed to deny"?     Who, exactly, is going to "not allow" any major religion to dictate to its followers?

I find this to be an interesting concept.  Basically it's saying that this religion's teachings is harmful to the planet and/or the population, therefore it should not be permitted to continue.  I imagine we can all list a few examples of where we think that is true but, as far as I know, the planet has no police who get to decide what religions are "allowed" to preach.   Sounds like a case of "the cure being worse than the disease" if you ask me.

quote>

Ah you misunderstand me there, i didnt exactly word it well. I dont believe Catholism should be stopped, i simply meant that banning the use of condoms would higher the risk of unwanted pregnancy and perhaps people would shy away from sex due to the risks.

[-M- 6]

With regards to the sex debate, as with the abortion / same-sex marriage / homosexuality debates, when will people learn that what other individuals do in their lives is none of their business?

If you don't like homosexuals, pre-marital sex, unsafe sex, same-sex marriage, abortions, then, please, for God's sake, don't be / have one / do it!

But stop dictating to others what you think is best for them, and get off your high horse of moral superiority.