The Top 10 Most Livable Cities

[Duke87 1,070]

Well, being from New York, I can tell you easily why it's not in the top ten.

-many parts of the city are still not so nice neighborhoods. Not the touristy parts, but outside of the main part of Manhattan, there's a lot of it quite apparent all over.

-It's being worked on, but much of the subway system is still rather old and dirty. And from the pictures I've seen of other cities' subways, as well as the ones I've seen personally, I can tell you that it's gotta be near the top of (if not at the top of) the list of World's dirtiest subway systems. Thing is, it's also one of the world's oldest, and it hasn't always been very well kept up. It's not that nice now, but in the 70's and 80's, it was a complete wreck. And coming back from that level of neglect takes time, especially considering how huge the system is.

-the subway system is also quite ridden with bums and panhandlers. There are efforts to curb such things, but the system is too big and there's just too many of them for getting rid of them entirely to be anywhere near feasible. It's been said before that "trying to get the bums out of the subway is like trying to get the rats out of the subway". And it's true. It just ain't happening.

-you can meet these bums in the streets, too. And it's advisable to keep a nice hold on your things lest someone try to grab them. Because that's not an unheard of occurrence. Not as much as it used to be, but it happens.

The real thing of it is that New York is a freaking huge city. And keeping a city that big in tip top shape is easier said than done.

And, well, the American issue of sprawl is certainly a factor, too. All the nicest people in the NYC metro area live outside of the city, and thus don't count towards its ratings. Living in the city is something that's often left for the poor people, immigrants, and other "undesirables".

....so American cities not doing too good actually makes some sense... because the best America has to offer is almost always in the suburbs...

[skyscraper_man 1]

Portland is pretty damn liveable

[villagemayor 0]

I'm glad my hometown of Toronto is #5, and yay for Vancouver too. I agree with haljackey as it only covers the City of Toronto and not the surrounding regions. I live in Mississauga, and it too is a great place to live, but like other suburbs, its just a suburb.

Not surprised that Asian cities didn't make the cut, but is it because those who are conducting the study comes from a Western-centric point of view? To a Westerner, Asian cities are so 'unlivable' because its polluted, crowded, and has very few parks and open spaces. But to someone (like myself) who have lived in Hong Kong before, the city is not that bad at all. What Duke87 is correct, these surveys are so biased against Asian cities. But what the heck, Toronto made it so what complaints do I have????

[Daguy 0]

Originally posted by: skyscraper_man Portland is pretty damn liveablequote>

 

I agree. I've been to Portland a couple times and it is a nice city. I'm from Vancouver (BC) so I've spent a lot of time in Seattle too. Portland is a much nicer city imo than Seattle.

Basically what sets apart Vancouver from a city like Portland is that Portland hasn't been able to generate the density that Vancouver has. Vancouver is sprawling at a rate much lower than most US cities. Also I think the diversity of the population gives the city a certain character that can only be found in cities like Toronto or New York. 

And of course there is the whole freeway thing. The fact that the freeway almost completely bypasses the city proper and goes nowhere near downtown makes the city less North American than most. Transit usage is very high in Vancouver, especially in downtown.

[screamingman12 30]

I am also not supprised that NYC isn't in the top 10. they need to build a circulator streetcar or something throughout Brooklyn to redevelop parts of it and kick out all the bums and gangsta thugs that live there. Of course the MTA always gives out all the "well, it won't fit into our current infrastructure and it'll cost too much" crap, which, I, for one, don't believe or understand.

[skyscraper_man 1]

Originally posted by: Daguy

Originally posted by: skyscraper_man Portland is pretty damn liveablequote>

 

I agree. I've been to Portland a couple times and it is a nice city. I'm from Vancouver (BC) so I've spent a lot of time in Seattle too. Portland is a much nicer city imo than Seattle.

Basically what sets apart Vancouver from a city like Portland is that Portland hasn't been able to generate the density that Vancouver has. Vancouver is sprawling at a rate much lower than most US cities. Also I think the diversity of the population gives the city a certain character that can only be found in cities like Toronto or New York. 

And of course there is the whole freeway thing. The fact that the freeway almost completely bypasses the city proper and goes nowhere near downtown makes the city less North American than most. Transit usage is very high in Vancouver, especially in downtown.quote>

Yeah i went to Vancouver for spring break last year and we spent like 45 min just getting through downtown.. no freeway is such a ***** lol...

[mencc1701 0]

Originally posted by: screamingman12 I am also not supprised that NYC isn't in the top 10. they need to build a circulator streetcar or something throughout Brooklyn to redevelop parts of it and kick out all the bums and gangsta thugs that live there. Of course the MTA always gives out all the "well, it won't fit into our current infrastructure and it'll cost too much" crap, which, I, for one, don't believe or understand.quote>

Your first mistake was trying to go through downtown - Vancouver is the sort of city where downtown is a place you go to, not pass through.

And really, it works quite well. Downtown Vancouver is a much nicer area for it, and it helps to encourage people to use mass transit, and the SkyTrain is good enough to handle it.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: screamingman12 I am also not supprised that NYC isn't in the top 10. they need to build a circulator streetcar or something throughout Brooklyn to redevelop parts of it and kick out all the bums and gangsta thugs that live there. Of course the MTA always gives out all the "well, it won't fit into our current infrastructure and it'll cost too much" crap, which, I, for one, don't believe or understand.quote>

If you've ever seen the traffic in NYC you'd know immediately why there are no streetcars there. No room, and they'd crawl during rush hour.

Besides, buses are more versatile since you can change their routes easily. Streetcars are confined to their tracks. There's a reason most cities (including New York) got rid of them, after all...

As for redeveloping and kicking out all the "bums and gangsta thugs", the problem is that those people don't just disappear when you kick them out of some place. All you're doing by uprooting them is making them somebody else's problem.

Still, you see gentrification taking place all over NYC... and while neighborhoods have improved because of it, those "undesirables" haven't vanished. Many of them are now in jail for breaking laws intended to improve neighborhoods and get rid of them. And while it works, it means you end up with a lot of people who are in jail for no real crime other than being poor. And that just isn't right...

[hamsterTK 93]

or they get on a bus and go mess up some other city...

[bartonn 0]

Yaay! Vancouver definently deserves #1. Sucks Calgary wasn't any high, but I guess traffic problems, rising living costs, and over-developement played a factor.

[cammo2003 20]

Originally posted by: Duke87

And, well, the American issue of sprawl is certainly a factor, too. All the nicest people in the NYC metro area live outside of the city, and thus don't count towards its ratings. Living in the city is something that's often left for the poor people, immigrants, and other "undesirables".

....so American cities not doing too good actually makes some sense... because the best America has to offer is almost always in the suburbs...quote>

I've always found this interesting... because you could quite rightly say it's the opposite in most Australian cities... And perhaps that contributes something to the liveability.

The inner suburbs are easily the most sought after. A townhouse in a place like Surry Hills, for example, would easily go for near $1m.

The middle ring and outer suburbs are where you get your lower classes, although many immigrants live in relatively inner suburbs -- which I think has alot to do with their preference for areas of high accessibility, which tends to be fairly good in the middle ring suburbs.

No Australian cities have a metro system. (Sydney will get one in coming decades if the government finally sheds it's 30 year neglect of rail). Melbourne does have a tram system in the inner suburbs which makes, from what I hear, the inner suburbs much more accessible within that city.

Australian cities are actually alot like American cities in many ways.

The exceptions are:

- They generally have better transport systems. Try comparing Sydney's CityRail to most American cities of its' size...  Add in the intense bus network and the ferry system and they don't have a hope (Sydney, by the way, has the second largest ferry fleet in the world - larger than Washington State Ferries, anyway, which according to wiki is third. I'd dare to guess that New York would be first).

- On average, we have fewer motorways/freeways.

- A greater percentage of our motorways are tolled, and the tolls can be quite steep -- nearly all of Sydney's motorways are tolled.

- Most major shopping centres are situated conveniently near rail lines. Of course, most still use cars to get there...

- Importantly, the inner city doesn't die after hours. There's still some life there. This is a fairly common thread in nearly every Australian city of any real significance.

- Crime is also generally significantly lower.

[david1314 44]

What about weather? If VANCOUVER made it in, they've obviously ignored that too....Weather is certainly the greatest factor in livability...rain-soaked, too hot, or too cold places shouldn't be up there.... You can't LIVE in Toronto in the Winter...I've been there once in January, I know!

Score another one for Denver and one for San Diego too!

[FavreKev04 13]

I want to know why Canadian cities are more cleaner the most other cities.

[david1314 44]

Well, worlds second largest nation with worlds [sarcasm]second smallest population[/sarcasm] just makes propagating that much pollution difficult.

[simsmart 1]

Have you ever been in toronto in the summer. *caugh caugh*

[yoshikoroyimara 5]

GO VANCOUVER!!!

[mencc1701 0]

Originally posted by: david1314 What about weather? If VANCOUVER made it in, they've obviously ignored that too....Weather is certainly the greatest factor in livability...rain-soaked, too hot, or too cold places shouldn't be up there.... You can't LIVE in Toronto in the Winter...I've been there once in January, I know!

Score another one for Denver and one for San Diego too!quote>

Wait, did you just say that winter is bad in Toronto? Ha! I'll believe that when I see it.

Oh, and @ cammo2003 - I was under the impression that BC Ferries is, in fact, the second largest ferry system in the world... not sure who's right, there.

[GingerBlokey 30]

I read this in The Monocole (thats right, I read a posh magazine ) and I agree with the results pretty much. I think all of the cities are fantastic. I might have put Copenhagen and Zurich higher up and included Stuttgart, Rotterdam and Turin. I love all of those cities.

[DFire870 2]

Not trying to start an argument or anything, but it amazes me how many Americans wonder why their city isn't in the top ten for cleanest/most livable/best/etc, when the reasons are painfully obvious. American cities as a whole are MUCH worse than other cities, in regards to healthcare, schools, crime, infrastructure, etc... American public schools are probably one of the worst if not the worst of any public school systems in the world, and the healthcare isn't much better.

With that said, there are some particular American cities that do deserve credit. While they may not be on the top of these international lists for the reasons I mentioned above, they would be outstanding in lists that included only those cities in America.

[Micah 16]

Not trying to start an argument or anything, but it amazes me how many Americans wonder why their city isn't in the top ten for cleanest/most livable/best/etc, when the reasons are painfully obvious. American cities as a whole are MUCH worse than other cities, in regards to healthcare, schools, crime, infrastructure, etc... American public schools are probably one of the worst if not the worst of any public school systems in the world, and the healthcare isn't much better.quote>

I actually think you repeated what's already been said. Americans know why their cities weren't on the list and I think a majority of us know that it doesn't have to do with discrimation or whatever you would call it. Most American cities aren't as clean as the cities on the list, as Duke said with the NYC subway system. Or, when it comes to crime, American cities generally don't stack up against the cities listed.

But really, if you were to ask an American if they enjoy the city they live in, I think most of them will say "yes" and that they hope their city could do better. American cities are certainly liveable, they just aren't the top 10. Oh well if they aren't the top 10... do you know how hard it is to make the top 10 out of all the thousands of cities in North America, Australia, and Europe alone? People act like the American cities are like Bangladesh (no offense, but I think people understand what I mean here) just because they aren't on the list.

[Haljackey 17,398]

Here are other articles about the report:

From London (Canada),

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/08/23/4440701-cp.html

From Adil Najam (Pakistan),

http://pakistaniat.com/2007/08/26/economist-global-liveability-index-intelligence-unit-karachi-rank-liveable-cities-city/

From Vancouver (Canada),

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=e5cad7fb-564e-4dc6-a133-cf9cc3d581a0

---

Here are some of the aspects assessed when each city is surveyed:

According to The Eonomist’s website:

With low crime, little threat from instability or terrorism and a highly developed transport and communications infrastructure, Canada and Australia are home to the most liveable destinations in the world… While liveability considers factors of recreational and cultural activity, the “big city buzz” can hamper the scores of some cities, although not to the extent that a city will present significant challenges. Global centres such as New York, Tokyo, London, Hong Kong and Paris may find themselves let down precisely because of their size and attractiveness.

Traffic congestion and higher crime rates

associated with large urban centres have, to some extent, offset the obvious cultural gains of living in such locations. This has also been compounded by fears that large centres like London and New York will remain

targets for high-profile terror attacks

. Despite this, most major centres do not present any significant challenges to liveability.

Of the 132 cities surveyed, only nine cities present the worst-case scenario in which most aspects of living quality are severely restricted

, reflecting general improvements on a global scale in areas such as education, health care and infrastructure. Four of these are in Asia, mainly South Asia. The other five are in Africa (accounting for three) and the Middle East (accounting for two).

The threat of terrorism and civil unrest is a major contributing factor to the cities that suffer from the worst liveability scores, as are poor development indicators

. Algiers is the least liveable destination in the survey, with a score of 64.7%.

---

Unfortunately, the full list of the 132 cities surveyed is not yet available on the Economist's website without a subscription.  I have also had no luck getting the lists from other websites, such as wikipedia. 

Since the information is so recent, it may be a while before the whole list is released freely to the public domain.  I will keep looking for the whole list for the time being, and post it here as soon as I find it.  If another member finds this list, please post it here!

[panthersimcity4 162]

Hahaha, none of the top 10 cities are in the United States

[Micah 16]

Terrorism? Huh? Terrorist attacks are extremely rare. How would terrorism affect livability? If terrorism affected livability, I would imagine NYC would have had a massive drop in its population, which it didn't. See, I understand traffic, high crime, etc., but terrorism? Then how did Toronto make the list? Didn't they have a threat just a few years ago? Sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting, but it doesn't make sense to me unless someone can explain it.

[Haljackey 17,398]

Originally posted by: Micah Terrorism? Huh? Terrorist attacks are extremely rare. How would terrorism affect livability?quote>

Terrorist attacks are extremely rare.  However, the thought of terrorism can affect a city's population.  For example, in a city that is a high terrorism target, the very thought of a terrorist attack on the city puts fear in that city's citizens.  Add to that that the threat will always remain, day and night, and that industries such as tourism and certain city services are affected by terrorist threats.  Thats what I think terrorism has to do with a city being livable. 

In my own opinion, I don't actually think terrorism would have a heavy impact on a city's livability, but problems resulting from high terrorism targets can affect a city's economic stability, which can then affect a city's livability.   With that said, I think a city's livability and terrorism are not directly linked, but are linked in other ways.

---

    About Toronto a couple years back, it was a big story when it happened, but that was about it.  The RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) were right on top of that situation and Canadian citizens were startled that a terrorist attack was actually planned for this country.  However, our fear of terrorism was shredded almost completely when we saw how the authorities handled this possible attack.  Ever since then, Canadians are mainly unafraid of terrorism, but the threat still remains, just like every other western nation.  As long as we are allied with the USA, terrorism will continue to be a problem (like Death to America and her allies!, I hate to say), but so far, that problem has not dramatically affected this nation.  That is why I think Toronto was #5 on the list despite  its size (the largest city on the top 10) and the threat of terrorism. 

[RABicle 9]

I live in Perth. [Edited for content] Marc hadn't heard of it before. But why follow the World Rally Championship or the Red Bull Aire Race when the left hand turn at Daytona is so much more exciting?

Anyway, I haven't picked up the local paper yet but no doubt they'll be bragging about this crap, I wonder how we won this award. But then again Adelaide made the lsit so it is only natural for us to do better than Adelaide.

Perth has probably the poorest train network of the cities listed (but it's better than Adelaide) and the freeway only encourages the outer suburbs to sprawl out endlessly. The Swan River is pretty much dead, nothing lives in it anymore except for algae every summer. They're arn't enough footpaths outside of the western suburbs which is probably why bogan Australia continues to gain weight. Our water also tastes horrible and yet soccermums, bogans and their friends the health department refuse to allow us to drink treated, recycled water.

But we're still better than Adelaide. And beaches are nice.

[confused04 14]

Originally posted by: RABicle I live in Perth. [Edited for content] Marc hadn't heard of it before. But why follow the World Rally Championship or the Red Bull Aire Race when the left hand turn at Daytona is so much more exciting?

Anyway, I haven't picked up the local paper yet but no doubt they'll be bragging about this crap, I wonder how we won this award. But then again Adelaide made the lsit so it is only natural for us to do better than Adelaide.

Perth has probably the poorest train network of the cities listed (but it's better than Adelaide) and the freeway only encourages the outer suburbs to sprawl out endlessly. The Swan River is pretty much dead, nothing lives in it anymore except for algae every summer. They're arn't enough footpaths outside of the western suburbs which is probably why bogan Australia continues to gain weight. Our water also tastes horrible and yet soccermums, bogans and their friends the health department refuse to allow us to drink treated, recycled water.

But we're still better than Adelaide. And beaches are nice.quote>

That's HIGHLY inappropriate in many ways...

But back on topic...

I do not think the threat of terrorism strongly affects ANY population, how they life and function.  To be honest, this is true for all terrorist sites, life returns to normal after tragedy. People will remember what happened, but Bali has returned to pre-bombing tourist levels, New York City (and the US as a whole) have returned to pre 9-11 conditions. It doesn't affect livability, at all. No one wakes up in the morning and says "I hope there isn't a terrorist attack." When people hear of an increased threat or a change in the terror level, nothing changes. In the US, the threat of terrorism has a funky side affect of HELPING the economy (neat ain't it) through Homeland security funds.Pumping ANY money into a local, in any shape or form, tends to increase economic output of that region. The economy only suffers when there is an actual attack, or a calculated aversion  of a threat (i.e. closing facilities down which hasn't really happened yet).

[Twisties_88 0]

hahahahahahaha, I live in Adelaide and am quite honestly surprised that anyone would think this place is "liveable". Its not bad, but definately not top ten material.

We have the worlds only one way freeway, that every six hours reverses, as well as a north-south thoroughfare, called south road and is possibly the most important road in the city, that is two lanes wide for the majority of its length, and the River torrens is really just a creek with a wier on it and a few bodies in it.

The only good things about Adelaide is the motor racing (clipsal 500, used to be the grand prix ), women, beer (coopers), and we are pretty good at sports in general, well AFL and A-league anyway.

And dont let anyone tell you its the city of churches, more like the city of Psychopathic murderers and drug dealers. but were pretty proud of that

[Haljackey 17,398]

Twisties_88: Adelaide probably made the top 10 because it is economically healthy city (or so I have heard), is a safe place to live (low crime, low terrorist threat), and the people living there have good access to infrastructure and government services (education, health care, etc.). Also note that the air quality there is pretty good, has good mass-transit and low traffic congestion (that reversabl highway must help a lot during the morning and evening rush hours!) and good recreation (parks, the motor speedway you stated, etc.)

That is why, according to this survey, Adelaide made the top 10.

[homeandaway 1]

im not suprised Sydney is on the list...its the most liveable city in the world!

[Twisties_88 0]

Originally posted by: haljackey Twisties_88: Adelaide probably made the top 10 because it is economically healthy city (or so I have heard), is a safe place to live (low crime, low terrorist threat), and the people living there have good access to infrastructure and government services (education, health care, etc.). Also note that the air quality there is pretty good, has good mass-transit and low traffic congestion (that reversabl highway must help a lot during the morning and evening rush hours!) and good recreation (parks, the motor speedway you stated, etc.)

That is why, according to this survey, Adelaide made the top 10.quote>

its not a motor speedway, they shut half the CBD (downtown for our american listeners) for the event.

Mass transit is good in parts of the city about 20 years old, other than that its a pain.

Our economy relies on Defence contracts and uranium, you do the math.

But air quality is good, lots of crime in some places, none in others.

Not a bad city but there would plenty of other cities that would rank higher.