10,000,000 vs. 10,000

[schm0 27]

The latest release from E3 has Gamespot saying this about SC:S:

"...This will result in a smaller population than prior SimCity games, and you won't be building cities with tens of thousands, let alone hundreds of thousands, of people. But you will need to worry about their wants and needs..."

According to this article, you will be able to track every single Sim. What do you think the largest populations will be? Is such a small focus a good or a bad thing? Have you wanted to micromanage every single Sim? Some may say, "Less is more." How do you feel about this particular aspect of SC:S?

[beebs 129]

I really don't see the populations getting over 100. Thinking of games like Age of Empires, where you generally have to keep track of each guy you make in order to keep control over your territory, anything over that number gets... daunting.

[Robstersfive 0]

sounds like sims not simulation city

[offgreen 1]

Sounds like city life, I think we know how great of a game that is.

Again, this isn't a city game, its a sims spinoff.

[schm0 27]

Ok, so what do you think about the topic? Re-read the original post, please.

[djrules5454 5]

I'm a stat junkie, so this is a turnoff for me.

[Gridlock 9]

Why has this game got its own section in simtropolis , because imho i dont feel it deserves to be here .

[Cockatoo 2,256]

How are you suposped to build skyscrapers in a game where only 100 people can be achieved. This isn't Sim City, it should be called 'The Sims- Societies' or something like that

[Cob92 360]

This is worse than city life, at least you could build a skyscraper megalopolis in that game that had a pop. of 15 million

[LeonardoDV 0]

Anyone got a link to the full article...?

I really enjoy being able to place Sims in my SimCities and follow their daily lives - makes the city feel a little more real and alive in some sense. I always thought it was an aspect of the game that could be made more of. Sounds like the kind of thing they're planning on doing...

Edit: Found the link for those who want it: http://e3.gamespot.com/story.html?sid=6172717&pid=939939&tag=top_stories;title;24

[ADG 0]

The reason I hate SC:S is not because you wont get more than 10,000 sims in the city, but because of all the other missing features and stupid candy graphics

IMHO it could be interesting to have a small town, but only if it's done more realistic, which SC:S is not

Though having less than 10,000 sims is one more reason why it shouldn't be called SimCity. SimSocieties or SimTown 2 would be better names

[DavidBeebe 0]

schm0, thanks for continuing to persue articles and for drumming up conversation on different aspects of the game.

[John-SJ 13]

Obviously, the focus of SC:S will be far different than it was in earlier SimCity games.  I think the closer focus on individual sims in the environment of SC:S could be quite interesting though.

I am just starting to get my feet wet with Chiildren of the Nile, Tilted Mills Egyptian city builder, a game which many of its fans call a society builder.  I have not played enough to be exactly sure where this billing comes from but I do know it is fairly different when compared to previous CB titles such as Caesare and Pharoah.

In CotN you also have the ability to micromanage any "sim" in the game and get a lot of useful information about him or her. Interestingly, building cities with 2,000 citizens or more seems to be quite possible, so I am sure that Societies will allow far more than 100 sims in a single city.

I look forward to seeing how TM manages to merge some of its previous CB style features into a city simulator and merges all of that into a game where you get to play with social energies.

Is this new focus a good thing?  Its still to early to tell, IMO, but I am eager to see what they have put together, and hopeful as to its success.

Based on my experiences with TM's other games, I also believe that the depth of SC:S will surprise many of its current critics.

[jabezscratch 159]

I get the sense that the majority of (though not all) players like bigger cities or at least to have the ability to build bigger cities so that feature of SCS will not go over well w/ loyal fans of the game.

[John-SJ 13]

Obviously, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this analogy, but...

Which would you rather have, 10,000, 100, or 1?

10,000  pennies

100       $10 bills

1            $10,000 bill

Bigger may be, but is not necessarily better, and all we can say for sure at this point is that you can build bigger cities in SC4 than in SC:S.

I will withold judgement as to which game allows me to build better cities (more fun cities) until I have SC:S installed on my computer.

[schm0 27]

Originally posted by: DavidBeebe schm0, thanks for continuing to persue articles and for drumming up conversation on different aspects of the game.quote>

You're welcome.

Wow, my thread was enough to garner attention from Mr. Beebe. That's saying something. Well, it's time for me to add my own $.02.

I like the idea of being able to track your Sims, but it seems like it might come with it's own limitations. Will my computer be bogged down when my population gets high? Will the graphics slow down when they're all bustling about a busy section of town? I believe this is the reason why they have been abstracted for much of SC's history. I have my own issues with other areas of gameplay in this game, but as far as focusing on an entire city of 1,000 or more people seems a little... small. I think there are people out there who would like that feature, but it's not for me. I know SC:S is a game that focuses on a cities individual personality, but I want to create huge regions with interacting cities.

TM has said that they understand the philosophical differences the SC4 fan will have with this game, but it's interesting to note how I actually like part of this idea. I always thought it would be cool to expand the MySims feature in SC4. The part I don't like is the idea of having to keep track of every single Sim's wants and desires. I can't remember which SC it was, but you used to be able to conduct opinion polls. Something like that could have been expanded, instead of making each individual Sim a focus of the game.

[Spinmaster 75]

TM has said that they understand the philosophical differences the SC4 fan will have with this game, but it's interesting to note how I actually like part of this idea. I always thought it would be cool to expand the MySims feature in SC4. The part I don't like is the idea of having to keep track of every single Sim's wants and desires. I can't remember which SC it was, but you used to be able to conduct opinion polls. Something like that could have been expanded, instead of making each individual Sim a focus of the game.quote>

Or ... they could've kept it completely abstracted in Sim City, and instead provided more in-depth integration with The Sims, for those who really care to follow around individual sims. Ordinarily I don't, and I usually ignore the "My Sims" feature in SC4 as it is. It might be interesting to watch a sim I actually created interact with my city, and actually have some effect imparted on him/her by the city.  I might even be inspired to buy SimCity  and The Sims in this case. But for that to work, the point is still: they should be separate games. Sim City focused on the city only. I like lots of "people" in my city, and I don't really care much what any individual one wants or feels. I don't even care if they are people, it could be 285,347 llamas building all the skyscrapers and gas stations for all I care, I'm focused on the number of "whatever the are-s" in my city, and whether or not I can manage it, grow it, coax it to build what I'd like my city to become.

I've played Sim City since the beginning because building a city - regardless of what lifeform lives in it or how happy each one is - is enjoyable to me. Caring about the individual people in my city is just not my style of game... hence why I've never been interested in The Sims or any other "person simulation" game, and why I won't be interested in SC:S. I'd only be interested in The Sims if I can see how my character interacts with my city ... but I still prefer to focus my efforts on building and managing the city, with as many people as I can cram into it and still keep it functional and aesthetically pleasing, and with all the intricacies and headaches that go with it. A character from The Sims would be little more than a lab-rat to me. I'd love to have that rat, but if I can't build a nice maze with SC:S, then there's no point to either game, for me.

I can see this working in reverse, too. A The Sims fan thinking "gee, wouldn't it be nice if I can build a city for my character?" I've said this before, there are a lot of options for integration, to create a vast field of games, each one focused on one element. See how your wild amusement park looks in your city. See how your city looks from your rollercoaster. See how your Sim likes the rollercoaster in your amusement park in your city. Did he go through the airport to get there? Does he live in a trailer in a neighboring town? Is his brother in jail? Hmm... so many possibilities missed, I think. Oh well.

Integration: would be incredible.

Imitation:  no thanks.

[1dera3 28]

Originally posted by: John-SJ Obviously, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this analogy, but...

Which would you rather have, 10,000, 100, or 1?

10,000  pennies

100       $10 bills

1            $10,000 bill

quote>

10,000 pennies is only $100

But I love my megalotroplises! Personally I love to have control over big neighborhoods, not just individual Sims. Sounds like a glorified The Sims 2 1/2.

[joexcooldude 1]

I understand where the individual focus is coming from. With a 3D game, having control over individuals seems only logical. That said, micromanagement of that aspect is not what Simcity is about at all. As a peripheral feature, a more advanced MySim could be helpful or briefly amusing. But the main difference between The Sims and Simcity is where the micromanagement focus is, and in SCS, this focus is decisively not where it should be. Thus, I can only see cities of 1000 possible without getting a brain aneurysm...and this takes away the city aspect of the game.

[Cob92 360]

My suggestion, similar to Spinmaster's post, would be to keep SimCity and The Sims as seperate games, but allow players who own both of them to play them in a connected manner. For example, you build a massive city in SC. Then you go into the Sims and play as some guy living in an apartment near downtown. The way the city was built in SimCity would have a major impact on the kind of world that the Sim lives in. Suppose this guy's apartment building happens to be in a crime ridden ghetto. When that Sim ventures out into the neighbohood, they would be more likely to get into fights with street gangsters, the local venues would be dumpy and frequented by all manner of 'undesirables'. At home, robberies would be much more likely. The general idea is: in SimCity, you get to be the classic all powerful mayor of the city while in the Sims, you get to be someone who lives in that city, the choices you made as mayor affecting your Sim life, and vice-versa.

The best thing about this idea is not only would it preserve SimCity as we know it, but it could be an effective marketing strategy for EA, making it more of a real world possible concept. Since the connectivity of the games would encourage people to buy both, profit for them would skyrocket. And no, I'm not kissing up to EA, I'm just saying that anything that we want for the future of SimCity would would have to benefit them, otherwise there is a 0% chance of it happening.

[baertooth 330]

I feel this is represenative of a major chunk of the problem with Societies.

Simcity 1-4 set the benchmark on certian expectations of the game that Societies has purposely chosen not to focus on and consequently appears to fail meeting them in the eyes of many of the fans. One of those areas is the scope of size and population. Societies looks "small". Even with the camera angle tilted way down trying to exaggerate the distance as much as possible in many of the videos, I'm still left with a "small" feeling. And since the game physics focus on city building instead of modern day city simulation, the population seems unnatural. There doesn't seem to be enough people for a city with tons of sky scrappers and tenements. The game really seems "small" on many levels.

[Ntq€310 1]

i honestly dont see this as a sims game, or a simcity, as a spin-off of both really, but i honestly think they badly mixed it, and was a bad idea to test it as the sequal to simcity 4, mabey as a seprate line of games, im sure reactions would be far less negitive, in the sims you have 8 sims at most to look after, in simcity you have 1-1,000,000+ to look after, also i would find it boring to have to plop everything, zoning you get to see your city rise up from the ashes, im sure many people wish that the you could have a huge metroplex, but the main focus of many fans anger is the fact the there taking the focus, and soul that the other simcity games had

[crazyarchitect 7]

I definitely agree with this last post. Maxis spent 18 years creating this wonderful empire of sim city, now it's just being turned into something that just doesn't seem realistic enough to be a city.  Like everyone else has been saying, it's just crazy to have a city of 1000 and have towering skyscrapers

[John-SJ 13]

In SC4, do you think there are really 1 million sims in a city that says it has a population of 1 million?  Or is the 1 million reported just an abstraction?

[Artman94 2]

@ John-SJ:
Actually what I think is that the residential numbers in SC4 are kinda exaggerated (come on, 12 people in a house that usually contains around 6 to 7 people? Not even 6 people at times?) So maybe a million people in SimCity 4 is like, oh, I don't know, maybe 750,000 people? It really depends on alot of things. Do correct me if I am wrong?

Anyways, the fact that SC:S is not going to be really large numbers of people really turns me off (in terms of having large populations) though still I kinda am a bit interested in trying the new game.

But, micromanaging EVERY SIM? Didn't EA, Maxis, and TM say that this new (should I dare say)SimCity is gonna be simple and easy? Something that was easy to pick up and play "and think this game wasn't every so hard at all"? It looks like SC:S just took out pipes, powerlines, and zoning for THIS. THIS is harder than pipes, powerlines, and zoning...
*sigh* But, of course...this is the new direction SC is going, and there's nothing we can do to stop it (not trying to be negative here, but we must face the facts sometime).

[John-SJ 13]

Actually, I wasn't asking if 1 million was a correct or incorrect number to use in calculations, which, honestly, is the main reason SC4 has any population.  Rather, I was asking if anyone thought there were really that many entities simulated in the game.

And the answer, I think it's pretty obvious, is no, of course not.  In fact, there are no sims (entities with a constant identity) in SC4 at all, unless you use the MySims feature, that is.

The difference is taht when SC:S says you have 1000 sims, you really do, and each one is unique.  Joe Schmoe will live at one specific residence, will have a wife and two kids (all with unique names) and if you save your game on one occasion, then fast forward a bit the next day, you can still find him( unless he died) and get information about his living conditions and about the game from him.  Same with his neighbor, and the on and on.

I don't know if you have played Children of the Nile, but the info I have been seeing about the Sims in SC:S sounds a lot like the "sims" there.  Unique identities, but you don't have to micromanage at all if you don't want to.  You can get any info you really need off of a simple report.  But if you want to follow a sim for any reason, you can, and you can get more detailed information perhaps than from just reading the reports.

I think SC:S will allow a pretty much hands off approach to management if that is your style, but the cool thing is, if you are a more hands on type then that style will be supported as well.  Or so it seems to me.

[Artman94 2]

ooohhh...
That's what you kinda meaned...
Maybe you're right, John SJ, that SC:S is a super version of the My Sims feature in SimCity 4...who knows...

[zzhysteriazz 0]

maybe we have it all wrong.

there could be 12-16 people living in a standard 5-7 house.

we have been building in mexico and china and didn't know it.

no one informed us!

[Daniel200 0]

Its not that bad. I dont like that you build skyscrapers with 3.000 people (not realistic) in SimCity 4, but now you built a city with a realistic number of people living in it.

If this is correct, you will have realistic number of people in the street and have a realistic traffic on the road.

I have waiting for that in many years.

And the graffic in the game is better then i have espected

Sorry fo bad english.

[John-SJ 13]

By the way, since SC:S will be easily moddable, if the low population numbers bother people, change 'em.  Something like:

)(RealPop * 100) + (SomeRandomNumber mod 100)) would yield a nice big number that would be just as meaningful, if not more meaningful, as the population number in SC4.  At least the population number in SC:S would be based on the actual number of sims walking around, living, and working.