An Open Letter to the Community

[zakuten 8]

     Hello, and thanks for reading this. I'm sure that almost none of you have heard of me, as I haven't produced anything of note except a CJ. I'm of that somewhat reviled class of member, the lurker. However, I have been a member of Simtropolis for near on two years now. I've seen inklings of the drama going on, and due to my personal aversion to such things. This morning, however, I saw GoaSkin's note. I know it sounds clichéd, but that was the proverbial camel's straw for me. Now, even without any standing, if I may be so bold as to give my opinions on the state of affairs:

    That note-- Well, it made me angry for two reasons. Have we as a community really gotten so inconsiderate that we can't make the effort to be civil? I remember when I joined, I thought everyone here was so nice. I believe for sure that we can do that again if we get everyone to wipe the slate and be civil. Sure, flamers are unnacceptable, and maybe disagreements and falling outs are just a typical matter in the course of affairs. I can accept that. The second reason, however, is what really causes me the most trouble. If the reason you release your bats, lots, mods, etc. is to help the community, why would you be punitive by removing them as you leave? That seems to defeat the purpose. Also, if you ARE leaving, please, at least tell us where to. Otherwise, whatever meaning you tried to gain by leaving is lost by just turning it into a simple abandonment.

My next issue somewhat relates to that. The cause, I believe, of what everyone has compared to a civil war is simple cliquism. Just like in high school, people form cliques here, which are almost impossible to break into. With all the new sites formed for disgruntled groups leaving Simtropolis for their various reasons, it's truly becoming impossible to keep up with things for the average member, I believe. Many people have commented on how there have been no new stunning batters recently. Partially, yes, I do believe it's because Sim City 4 is old. There's no way around that. But I think that the fact is, the BAT community is no longer so. It's fragmented into these cliques to the extent that it seems to me like new batters who have as-yet-unrefined potential simply have to grind through it alone instead of finding support from others to help them along.

For those who complain about flamers and staff--... Well, I have extensive experience with flamers and griefers. It pains me to reveal this, but I'm a furry. The most reviled group on the internet, and it shows, from the sheer numbers of people who devote themselves to simply making fun of us. Flamers are an unavoidable part of the internet experience, and how you put up with them shows your character. Please, just send it through the correct enforcement channels rather than getting all angry. As for the staff issue, for them this must be stressful, to have to balance all the responsibilities of a site so big as this plus hold a normal life. To that end, at least give them the respect due for them giving their time as volunteers. My only other advice for conduct is -- this forum and site really belongs to everyone here, in a way, and so please, remember that we're all real people, not just faceless text(against appearances.)

I had a few more points, but they've slipped my mind. As for if I've offended anybody, I apologize profusely. I'm just trying to speak my mind to the community I love and the people here that I admire for their amazing work. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for reading all this.

With my very best regards,

Tim Cousins

[drevilshenchman 4]

That was very eloquently written, Tim. I couldn't agree more.

[The_Dalai_Llama 15]

I really can't disagree with that. With such a large community, there will always be cliques which leads to disagreements and even hostililty. It's human nature and really can't be eliminated entirely. I know people in the past have had disagreements with Simtropolis, but sometimes we forget to act like adults. If you disagree with the site, try to resolve any problems in a civil manner.

[Mikeaut1 261]

So nicely written!!

You have great points. Simtropolis is a huge community of people, and avoiding falling outs or hostility is really hard. I also like your point about the flamers. In an online community such as this, you are totally right, it is unavoidable to deal with flamers, especially when people release their creations and expect criticisms in return. As an uploader, you need to be responsible for your own criticisms. Anything hostile, easily tell the staff and we'll intervene.

And at least someone here can understand that the Staff aren't a bunch of meanies. Much of what the argument is against the staff is that we should be on top of every criticism towards custom content. It's very hard, especially with ST's size, to keep on top of everything. That's why the membership here can easily access a staff member to quiet some flamers who attack personally or vulgarly. The staff members aren't online 24/7 either, we have lives to live as well!

I really thought your post hit the nail right on the head. Bravo to you!

[demerson 42]

I agree 100% with you,  There is no other way to put it.  ive also been here for 2 yrs and ive seen many great baters dissapear without a trace.  For example kevdan25 and simgoober.  Two of the most talented and best baters dissapeared.  Ive seen some of simgoobers work at pegs site but not recently.

[DOXXP29 5]

Very well said, Zakuten! I agree with your points. Your analogy to high school cliques is so true.

If it helps, GoaSkin can be found over at www.sc4devotion.com which is a great site and where you can find many other past members. If you haven't been there, you'll find many familiar batters over there. I was very sad to see GoaSkin depart, but fortunately he still lives on with the community and his work is still available for us to use. 

I hope everyone will take some time and read your post. It would be great of we could all just get along and put SC4 at the top of the list and take bickering and flaming off the list entirely.

[joerg 280]

Dear Communities of BOTH Simtropolis and Sim City 4 Devotion. I understand that many things have gone wrong over the past few years, and because of that our amazing community has been fractured at its very core. That core is the fans that make the content and bring that content to life in cities and on the pages of these great sites. I see constant bickering amongst these communities over where content belongs and where credit should be given, and to be honest it sickens me with every glancing read.

I do not mean to deny that things have gone a rye and that people have been mistreated under false pretenses. However, I refuse to accept the misconception that we as a community both Sim City Devotion and Simtropolis, as well as many countless other communities have such different agendas and strengths that we may not function as one again.

When I left this community two years ago I was still in high school and by many standards I lacked the maturity to understand that maturity and respect are both things that can only be gained over time. I do not claim to have accomplished adding either of those virtues to my character, but I do know those traits can be found within all of us if we simply look past our differences and learn to once again respect each others talents and passions, which unsurprisingly many of us share.

I do not have a vast proposal to bring these communities back together, but I do wish to ask favors of each and every one of you. First off please let us go back to accepting that this is merely a game in which all of us love, and that what we add to the game should be enjoyed by all and not the few that we see fit. Next let us learn to respect each other, this should not be hard to ask of you, it just means when a flamer goes off on another member we defend them rather than sit back and let this abuse occur. More over please do not join in on the complaints, it only tears us apart further and drives members like myself and many others away. Finally I believe that both Simtropolis and Sim City 4 Devotion are amazing sites, and both have very different and yes similar things to bring to the community and both are essential to strengthening us as a whole. However, me must learn to share and be a community as a whole. Forget only uploading content to one site out of loyalty or worse, spite! Doing this accomplishes nothing, and if there is one insult to be given in this thread it is this, If you are the type of person that refuses to share with others simply because you want the fame or the hype or you lack the maturity or understanding to communicate and aid in changing things for the better, then you may need to reassess your priorities.

All that said I would like to put forth this gesture of goodwill, I will likely begin working with BSC, members of Simtropolis, and members of SC4 Devotion, in an effort to create new bats and it is my hope that I can help bring a renaissance to this community and its many glorious projects. In doing this I promise to release all of my content at both sites with no personal agenda, and it is my personal vendetta to help aid in the repair of that fracture that weakens us all. Thank You - Joerg.

PS: if you kids don't learn to share and play nice I will remove my content and that is like 250,000 downloads so HA! --------------JK, I figured this post could use a good laugh.

[MsD 0]

Originally posted by: joerg ...................... I see constant bickering amongst these communities over where content belongs and where credit should be given, and to be honest it sickens me with every glancing read.quote>

I to have seen some post about where certain content belongs.  The first on that comes to mind is the NAM.  The Jan. 2007 version was released and posted on SC4D before it was available here on ST.  I believe the same goes with the June 2007 release.  Some members were ticked off because the NAM was on another site and they wrongfully thought that the NAM belonged to ST and ST only.

The NAM belongs to the people who created it and they have the right to uploaded it to any site they choose to.  The same goes with any Lot, Bat, MOD ect. that a member creates.  True, once it is uploaded it actually becomes the property of what ever site it was uploaded to, but that does not mean that the creators can't upload it to a different site.

It would be like telling GM that they are not allowed to sell their Silverado Pickups to Dealer #2 because it was already sold to Dealer #1.

The purpose of any creation being on more then one site is to give more people an opportunity to download it.  Not every SC4 player is a member of ST or SC4D.  There are some players out there who have never heard of either site.  (OMG!! Is that really possible??)

[jplumbley 5]

Originally posted by: MsD

I to have seen some post about where certain content belongs.  The first on that comes to mind is the NAM.  The Jan. 2007 version was released and posted on SC4D before it was available here on ST.  I believe the same goes with the June 2007 release.  Some members were ticked off because the NAM was on another site and they wrongfully thought that the NAM belonged to ST and ST only.

quote>

Well, I hope that you and the community understand that Dirk is the only person that can upload the NAM to the Modds and Downloads section.  The NAM team can tell Dirk when they are going to release it on other sites simultaneously, which they did.  The January 07 NAM was to be released on Chirstmas day if I remember correctly and was at SC4D and Simzone.de.  The June 07 NAM was to be released on June 1, Andreas Birthday.  Both times Dirk was sent the files ahead of time so he could get them released on those days.

Unfortunately, it was not the NAM teams fault in those situations that Simtropolis did not have the NAM first.  They did what they were suppose to do, and gave Dirk the date in which the NAM will be released internationally.  And Dirk, for whatever reason decided not to upload it on the same day or he was too busy to do it.  I cant say either way.

But you cannot get mad at the NAM team for doing what they were suppose to do.

[nino71 0]

Agree 110% good one you bro !!!

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Nice job -- and GREAT POST!

[Silur 3,304]

I think - this is tremendous and free site about SC4 ...

May be about NAM -may be about SG or PEG or JRJ ...

GREAT ARTISTS for ever ...

Great Dirk connection about 200 000 peoplle around this - and this is GREAT !!!

My mind - we must live with SC4 - no more ....

[Dirktator 2,320]

Kudos to the original poster, thanks for writing your thoughts, and I'm sure the majority of people here share those sentiments.

I take full responsibility for the tardy posting of the NAM in January, if I recall, I had been sick for about 2 weeks and things had gotten behind.  So please do not misconstrue, the NAM team did indeed provide Simtropolis the NAM files, it was me who was remiss for not posting it on the right date, so the blame does not fall on them.

Many people leave for various reasons, and it's not my place to coerce them one way or the other.  It is their choice, and while I may not agree with the manner in which they leave, they are certainly entitled to do as they wish with their own creations.  I wish them good luck, and hope to see them around the SC communities at large.

I respect and admire all the great content creators past and present here at Simtropolis.  Do remember that SimCity is bigger than Simtropolis, and there are many other great sites out there keeping the dream alive. Peg's site, SimCities, SC4Devotion to name a few. The torch has not been passed on, we all just made more torches...

Respect each other

[MarcosMX 222]

Damn ST is so big there will be someone who will offend your work sometime, I have been picked by some and I don't care. These people who leave ST shold understand that not each member of this whole site will respect you, most of them will but not all. It is like you are an profesionnal artistist living in Hollywood, the city grows and grows, more amateur artist start to come in, and some of them won't treat you like royalty, and the only way to gain respect is to listening and talking to them in a civil manner, if there is a problem, discuss it. Same thing goes to ST, you are not going to be respected by everybody. If you have a problem with a member, talk to him, let him know that you care what he is saying. If he/she doesn't listen to you, report him to a moderator, and let them take care of it.

Anyways great post zakuten

P.s sorry for my bad English not my native language.

[Silur 3,304]

Hi, Dirk ...

This site is tremendous about SC4 ...

Be careful with us - somebody go with doubly a fool...

Excuse us ...

I like your site for ever and nothing more .....

[MsD 0]

Originally posted by: jplumbley

Originally posted by: MsD

I to have seen some post about where certain content belongs.  The first on that comes to mind is the NAM.  The Jan. 2007 version was released and posted on SC4D before it was available here on ST.  I believe the same goes with the June 2007 release.  Some members were ticked off because the NAM was on another site and they wrongfully thought that the NAM belonged to ST and ST only.

quote>

Well, I hope that you and the community understand that Dirk is the only person that can upload the NAM to the Modds and Downloads section.  The NAM team can tell Dirk when they are going to release it on other sites simultaneously, which they did.  The January 07 NAM was to be released on Chirstmas day if I remember correctly and was at SC4D and Simzone.de.  The June 07 NAM was to be released on June 1, Andreas Birthday.  Both times Dirk was sent the files ahead of time so he could get them released on those days.

Unfortunately, it was not the NAM teams fault in those situations that Simtropolis did not have the NAM first.  They did what they were suppose to do, and gave Dirk the date in which the NAM will be released internationally.  And Dirk, for whatever reason decided not to upload it on the same day or he was too busy to do it.  I cant say either way.

But you cannot get mad at the NAM team for doing what they were suppose to do.quote>

Apparently you did not fully understand my post.  I understand why the STEX did not load the NAM before SC4D.  The point being "who gives a darn which site gets it first"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is entirely up to the NAM team and to what site gets what and when.  If Dirk was unable to Load the files for us to get by a particular time then that is on him.  Why should anyone cry about what site has what and why.

Again, point being "Grow up everyone"

NOTE:  It has come to my attention that I was in error when I stated that once a file is uploaded it becomes the property of the site it was uploaded to.  Technically all files still remain the property of the creator.

[jplumbley 5]

Originally posted by: MsD

Originally posted by: jplumbley

Originally posted by: MsD

I to have seen some post about where certain content belongs.  The first on that comes to mind is the NAM.  The Jan. 2007 version was released and posted on SC4D before it was available here on ST.  I believe the same goes with the June 2007 release.  Some members were ticked off because the NAM was on another site and they wrongfully thought that the NAM belonged to ST and ST only.

quote>

Well, I hope that you and the community understand that Dirk is the only person that can upload the NAM to the Modds and Downloads section.  The NAM team can tell Dirk when they are going to release it on other sites simultaneously, which they did.  The January 07 NAM was to be released on Chirstmas day if I remember correctly and was at SC4D and Simzone.de.  The June 07 NAM was to be released on June 1, Andreas Birthday.  Both times Dirk was sent the files ahead of time so he could get them released on those days.

Unfortunately, it was not the NAM teams fault in those situations that Simtropolis did not have the NAM first.  They did what they were suppose to do, and gave Dirk the date in which the NAM will be released internationally.  And Dirk, for whatever reason decided not to upload it on the same day or he was too busy to do it.  I cant say either way.

But you cannot get mad at the NAM team for doing what they were suppose to do.quote>

Apparently you did not fully understand my post.  I understand why the STEX did not load the NAM before SC4D.  The point being "who gives a darn which site gets it first"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is entirely up to the NAM team and to what site gets what and when.  If Dirk was unable to Load the files for us to get by a particular time then that is on him.  Why should anyone cry about what site has what and why.

Again, point being "Grow up everyone"

NOTE:  It has come to my attention that I was in error when I stated that once a file is uploaded it becomes the property of the site it was uploaded to.  Technically all files still remain the property of the creator.quote>

 

Hi MsD,

I didnt mean for this to be directed at you.  I am sorry for making it seem that way.

I just wanted to state this fact before it was turned into another let's bash the NAM team for not releasing the ST NAM here first.  Because as we both know, there are members out there that assume things and take it as if the NAM was not uploaded here first for some pre-determined reason.

Thankfully this was stemmed early by Dirk.

Thank you Dirk for commenting on this.  I am sorry you were sick and I understand that.  You have that right and hopefully the community can understand that and lay off of the NAM team for NAM not being uploaded here on the same day it was uploaded elsewhere.

JPlumbley

[patriots_1228 51]

hehe guess i started a peace movement..........

[ILL Tonkso 1,236]

Permitt me to take the stage for a sec.

I was thinking about this place on the bus at random, and were all just people.

On Simtropolis it doesnt matter whether you are 14 or 40, if your an overachiever or an underachiever. A police officer or accessing the site from a prison cell. Were all equal here.

There is no need to flame, im being flamed a hell of a lot lately, and there is no need for it. Really.

This goes out to everyone, on Simtropolis, Devotion, SimCities, Planning Pages, Sim City Central, wherever. Were all Sim City fans, we all want to play the game, we all want to enjoy ourselves. So lets. Beating the crap out of eachother over a web forum really isnt fun, and really isnt productive. If you have a problem with someone else, leave it be. Dont attack them. If someone makes a team, dont make your team an ememy of them. If my teammates did that can you imagine the reputation NDEX would have recieved by now. At the end of the day, if you want to start flaming people and going round causing conflict, your just making yourself look stupid.

I have a lot of faith in this community. And i personally dont intend to move to another site (although i do upload to Simvision as a mirror/alternative). But thats just me.

Oh finally, in response to those who have been flaming me recently. I do not believe i am up myself, or that i elevate myself over the community. Im just a student in video games design with uncontrollable hair who wells lights at British Home Stores on weekends. Im not some overinflated egocentric god with a Napoleonic fixation.

edit: end note: This post is not intended to flame anyone, or aimed at any given team.

[AsianEvolusioner 18]

ck...ck...ck.... this is happened again, what round now? 141384045749? okay, i'll sit and watch you all....

^^^^^

|||||||||

low quality joke.....

[MsD 0]

Originally posted by: jplumbley

Hi MsD,

I didnt mean for this to be directed at you.  I am sorry for making it seem that way.

I just wanted to state this fact before it was turned into another let's bash the NAM team for not releasing the ST NAM here first.  Because as we both know, there are members out there that assume things and take it as if the NAM was not uploaded here first for some pre-determined reason.

Thankfully this was stemmed early by Dirk.

Thank you Dirk for commenting on this.  I am sorry you were sick and I understand that.  You have that right and hopefully the community can understand that and lay off of the NAM team for NAM not being uploaded here on the same day it was uploaded elsewhere.

JPlumbleyquote>

I can honestly  say that I did not take it personally.  It just seemed as though (or that is what it seemed to me anyway) you were not understanding what I was trying to get at.  As I am sure just about everyone who reads my post already knows, I am not the most eloquent writer, so I may not have put what I was trying to say in the proper manor.

I was not trying to bash the NAM team or Dirk.  I was trying to use that whole debacle as an example to emphasize my point.

My point is simple.  Everyone just needs to stop complaining about this, that or the other things.

Who cares what Lots, Bats, Mods, NAM, tools and/or anything else are not on this site.  If you can't find what you want here, try another site.

If you do a google search for a green BMW with mag wheels, you may have to visit several sites before you find what you are looking for.  The same goes here.  IF YOU CAN'T FIND IT, TRY SOMEPLACE ELSE.

Now as far as members leaving and taking up shop on another site.  Who cares?  I am a member on six different SC4 fan sites, just like the majority of the members here.  Who cares if the BSC is not here.  If I want to download their creations or talk to a BSC member, then I go to the site where they hang out at.  I don't come to this forum and start threads that are intent on crying about it.  I just deal with it.

Life is full of people, things and/or situations that we do not like.  We all just have to learn to deal with what we don't like.

A good example is me.  When the 2PR restriction was placed on Jackies Kabin, I didn't like it.  I made the mistake of acting childish about it.  I realized my error and made my apologies to most (except one) and they responded in kind.  Now it is over and done with.  I have moved on.

Why can't others do the same?  Why must there be those who cry because their ice cream is to cold?

Now,  I have said my peace.  I have done my part to put and end to all this whining.  If those who choose to whine choose to continue then so be it.  I won't speak no more on the subject.  I am done.  I am moving on.  (no not leaving ST, just moving on to what I enjoy)

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: jplumbley Because as we both know, there are members out there that assume things ...

quote>

I think this is very true. But I think also it has to be applicable in both directions.

I think all too often when something doesn't go the way a person thinks they should, they seem to immediately assume ill-will on the part of the other people involved, instead of assuming there was a perfectly innocent or good reason for what happened (which is most often the case). Unfortunately this assumption simply leads to a vicious cycle of escalating hostility and doesn't solve anything.

[Cleaner475 150]

I think your post zakuten was very well written - I completly agree with you - I expect most of us have been part of spam at a time in our forum life but I do get annoyed with spammers but I seem to get more annoyed with people that get annoyed with spammers - they treat them harshly with no respect and see them more a robots than actually people.

Some people spam unintentionally and don't mean it and only realize when told by other people, this was the problem in my case. You spoke about points that are very true.

Thanks for your post I hope even more people will listen.

Thanks,

Richard

[Boggy1 45]

Bleh, well, I'm not going to write a huge long post like the majority of people here.

Nowadays, I find myself becoming very disheartened and pessamistic with the community. Frankly, it gets me rather depressed.

I am in the chatroom..well..far too much, and it seems to be it's own community isolated from the rest of the website.

Lately, fractures have been creeping their way into this sub-community. This whole drama with sc4devotion, and other such websites, has caused a huge degree of paranoia and discrimination within the chat.

Not a day goes by where someone mentions some drama that is unfolding. And that nearly always causes arguments between us. People get upset and/or angry. They flame the BSC, they flame Simtropolis, they flame other members.

I myself, am sorry to say, have taken part in some of these arguments. It sucks basically.

In the end, its a game. And it annoys me that people can be so immature (including me) when dealing with issues and problems. Do we have a life?

Bleh. -_-

Another thing that annoys me is post counts. Although this is a slightly old argument by now, I think that post counts does induce much envy, jealousy, competition, and arguments among members.

And yeah, other stuff which I'm too tired to explain. Arguments are overrated. In the end it all boils down to people liking to cause them. Even if they don't mean anything. Even if they are pointless.

It sucks.

(and zakuten, about the furry thing, don't worry, I know exactly how you feel.)

Oh, this turned into a long post after all. Blerh. *depressed*

[Cjah 15]

Another thing that annoys me is post counts. Although this is a slightly old argument by now, I think that post counts does induce much envy, jealousy, competition, and arguments among members.quote>

honestly Boggy...only one or two members now are spammers...and hopefuly they have gotten the hint...

I mean not many people really post that much in the CJ area....if you want spammers look in the forum games...and maybe off topic...thats the ground of spammers...

Anyway who cares about post....

zakuten has made many excellent posts....The leaving/exodus of major batters....

The constant bickering and or arguements....

And of course the flaming....shoot...I know to well about flaming...sure Simtrpolis is a nice place...but every since I was a newb I've been kicked around...if it wasn't about a stupid signature or an ego match in the chat...it was a new mod with to much power for his own good..either way I've done the flaming and been burned...

Also it took guts to say what you said...I'd be tough for me to say much of anything about my "background".....