Creationism vs. Evolution

[Odainsaker 2,134]

What? Are we saying the Bible wasn't written by Jesus, following the direct and unalterable dictation of God, in ink made from blood drawn from the Lamb's own fingertips? Heresy...Thou Shalt Burn for such Blasphemy! And the gays too, and the Jews, and the pagans, and the Mohammedans, and the Liberals, and the Clintons, and the Darwinists, and the secularists, and the anti-Americans, and any other unholy scapegoats yet to be named, but you know who you are.

Hehe, actually, if you look at the early history of the church, there was great disagreement among the leading Christian theologians and sects on the nature of Christ's teachings, the attributions of who wrote what and what they actually saw or told their own followers, and even if Christ was really a divinity in his own right or just specially inspired. The leaderships of the early scattered Church and imperial Constantinople opted to streamline the confusion into a single uniform doctrine and canon suitable for the Roman Empire's new State Religion while purging those books and ideas deemed unsuitable. This is what makes discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels found at Nag Hammadi, Coptic Bibles, and other similar early non-canonical writings so interesting...not because of bizarre pop-cultural prophesies and secret codes supposedly in them, but because they give insight into the various differences among the geographically disparate sects in early Christianity before appointed ecumenical groups like the Council of Nicea got busy selecting and sorting things out and eventually outlawing and destroying unsuitable works. Of course, differences over time led the western Roman Catholic church to break away from the eastern Orthodox, and scores of Protestant churches broke from the Catholic, leaving us again with untold different interpretations and opinions under the umbrella name of Christianity. It is simply the nature of collective human organizations...perhaps it is even God's will that it be so.

But it also offers...why is the Bible and its Creation story more true and divine, be it literally or metaphorically, than the complied works of Tolkien?

[6underground 11]

On interpretations, you guys are right. Interpretations are like....elbows, everybody's got at least one. That's the problem with people, you can't trust them to take a message properly. I don't see it as a problem with the text so much as a problem with the people who read it. Case in point: The President  of the USA wanting to argue over the meaning of the word 'is'. Remember that? In that kind of light, who would want anyone else's opinion on what the Bible means?quote>

Now, Now Manticore. Trust is not an issue, my point really stands that if you were raised in a homophobic region and home life, you are going to read passages in the bible that relate to homosexuality as NEGATIVE. If you are raised in a non-homophobic region and home life you are going to read passages in the bible that relate to homosexuality as POSITIVE.

You cannot take a "message properly" is the context of said passage is ambiguous, believing otherwise is a fallacy.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Again, a Christian doesn't ignore the Bible. quote>

There is a difference between "ignoring" and "not taking it literally".

There are millions of people who have accepted Christ as their savior and believe his teachings are worth following and also believe that the bible is metaphorical, open to interpretation, and muddled with by man and therefore can not be the literal word of God.

Where is the contradiction here?

The bible didn't happen until centuries later.    Millions of Christians believe that, just because man messed with the bible and it can't be trusted literally, that is no reason to ignore Christ's teachings.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Ok please tell me were you got this valuable piece of information? Because that sounds like a liequote>

Oh dear...would seem someone hasn't had the time to learn history in-between reading the Bible and interpretating several passage to spread hate. Krbe has answered that point very well. I suggest you go read about and at least try to understand the creation of the Bible...would make you look less misinformed about things..

There is a difference between "ignoring" and "not taking it literally".

There are millions of people who have accepted Christ as their savior and believe his teachings are worth following and also believe that the bible is metaphorical, open to interpretation, and muddled with by man and therefore can not be the literal word of God.

Where is the contradiction here?

The bible didn't happen until centuries later.    Millions of Christians believe that, just because man messed with the bible and it can't be trusted literally, that is no reason to ignore Christ's teachings. quote>

Exactly, Thank you Skigeek

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

Exactly, Thank you Skigeek quote>

You're welcome.

Now, please stop calling other people names like "misinformed fool".    We are supposed to be talking about the issues, not each other.

[harlem123 0]

sry if i hurt someone but it´s genius

--- picture edited ---

Which part of "stop calling each other names"  and "discuss the issues, not each other"  do you not understand?

[belfastuniguy 18]

What was the picture??

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

What was the picture??quote>

It was a picture of a chart that was calling some people here names.

I'll say it again:   Discuss the issues, not each other.

Once we start calling each other names, and talking about each other, not the issues, threads degrade into flamefests and have to be closed.

We can talk about the issues.  Talk about why you believe X instead of Y.  Do not talk about people who believe Y.

[harlem123 0]

It was just a satirical picture from "family guy" i didn´t want to hurt someone if i do this with this picture i want to apologize for it.

[Simfan34 11]

Hello.

I belive in evolution. I am a Catholic. I support the right of homosexuals to be as such, but I am not a homosexual.

Goodbye.

[wir3d 2]

Ok your point? So why do you support the right of homosexuals?

[belfastuniguy 18]

Ah because maybe he has better understanding of the world and its his right. You can't jump on everyone because they express an opinion that differs from your understanding. Whether it be Simfan or me on homosexuality or me and others about abortion.

[harlem123 0]

Why not i mean it is their live and we shouldn

[Boggy1 45]

wir3d: I support the rights of you, so I don't see why you shouldn't support my rights. Just because I am gay, doesn't mean I'm evil. Everysingle person on the planet deserves basic rights.

[Simfan34 11]

Originally posted by: wir3d Ok your point? So why do you support the right of homosexuals?quote>

 

Why? Beacause I am a tolerant person and although I am not a homosexual, I do belive that people should be free to practice what they want (but not everything they want) and homosexuality is is one of

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 1, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: wir3d

Ok your point? So why do you support the right of homosexuals?quote>

Many people support basic civil rights, regardless of demographic factors like gender, race, ethnicity, color,  national origin, age, physical limitations, familial status, religious beliefs,  sexual orientation, political affiliation, or veteran status.

Not all countries have laws protecting all groups.  Some do.

[harlem123 0]

I don`t know where some of you are from but in the "European Convention on Human Rights" is said that every Person how to live and no one should be discriminated because of his orign, religion, political opinion, gender or sexual orientation.

i think this is a very important convention

[belfastuniguy 18]

As many have stated is a case of basic and humane civil rights. The western world is meant to be a place that seeks to place itself on the moral highground when it comes to protecting rights.

You can't give one group full rights and deny them to another group. America did the very same things to the black community and it only served to damage their image round the world. In the 21st century people living in modern developed countries expect nothing less than full and wide ranging rights. To deny them makes us no better than places like China, Burma or Iran.

[patriots_1228 51]

Im too lazy to quote, but before you tell me that to deny the bible is to deny christ or whatever, let me summarize some previously mentioned facts.

-The old testament is built from traditional stories, passed down by word of mouth. Those of you who have played the game telephone know what im saying ("I like bannanas" then when it gets to the end of the line "So and so sucked so and so's what???!!").

-The only part of the bible that has been influenced by any kind of diety/holy figure is the New Testament.

-The new testament was written after the death of jesus, and was also a combination of many other scripts. Jesus was not there to go over everything with a red pen, and a lot of scriptures were left out, meaning we will never know everything about god and christ.

-It is okay to doubt parts of the bible. Christianity is "Beleiving Jesus is the son of god" not "beleiving every little story in the bible".

and to throw somthing in...

I don't know about you, but i am comfortable enough with myself and my religion that I am able to question my church and my religion. For example, i don't allow myself to be a brainwashed fool, and refuse to participate in the weekly prayer that was just designed to generate PR and raise 3 million dollars, menawhile the vatican calls me out for contributing to the gap between the wealthy and the poor.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Miss a day, miss a lot!

 I was thinking over this at work and thinking,"I hope it hasn't turned into a flamefest!" Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread, SkiGeek. 

I should say, I do respect everyone's right to believe what they want. I obviously have differences of opinion with some/most people in this thread, but I am not going to mistreat anyone or throw around ad-hominems. It is just a fansite thread, anyone getting too hot under the collar should remember that. No one has need to give an account of their beliefs to anyone here, and it isn't up to anyone here to hold anyone accountable for their beliefs. 

That should cover that.

In response to Deadwoods: Yes, as far as I have been exposed to. I had several close Orthodox Jewish friends in high school, and their families seemed to thoroughly believe in Creation. As part of the Torah, it was unquestioned. I certainly can't speak for Judaism or its various sub-denominations, as I am not Jewish. Just relating what I have seen. 

BTW everyone, if you ever are lucky enough to get invited for a Seder (Passover), go to it. The food is fabulous, and it's a culturally enlightening experience. I highly recommend it.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: manticorefan Scripture is a package deal. Either it is true as a whole, or untrue as a whole. quote>

That is a logical fallacy. Just because one thing in a book is wrong does not mean everything else in the book is also wrong, and just because one thing in a book is right does not mean everything else in there is also right. It's perfectly valid, for instance, to say that Jesus was our savior but he never actually "rose from the dead"- that he just got crucified and went straight home to daddy (I don't believe that, it's just an example). Nobody can prove it one way or the other, it's all a matter of faith- and different people can put their faith in different things.

On interpretations, you guys are right. Interpretations are like....elbows, everybody's got at least one. That's the problem with people, you can't trust them to take a message properly. I don't see it as a problem with the text so much as a problem with the people who read it. Case in point: The President  of the USA wanting to argue over the meaning of the word 'is'. Remember that? In that kind of light, who would want anyone else's opinion on what the Bible means?quote>

The point is that your opinion is but one of many. We have no real way of knowing for sure what the proper way to interpret the bible is. We don't know what was going through the heads of the people (or deity, if you like) who wrote it. You may think one thing, but other people may also think other things and be equally justified in thinking them.

And as 6underground demonstrated, the bible can be quite a rorschach.

Ultimately, it's solely a matter of personal opinion. The Bible is like a Reese's peanut butter cup- there's no wrong way to eat it.

[jadebullet 0]

Christianity is about loving and caring about your fellow man. If you hate someone for their beliefs or their lifestyle then you arent being very Christian. Homosexuals can be Christians as much as anything else. Seriously i don't get why people are so up in arms about this. The refferences to homosexuality being bad in the Bible either talked about wild orgies that were full of adultery, or have been added by the church in the years since it was written. they kept it in latin for years so that the people wouldnt figure out that they were changing the doctrine to their wims. They edited stuff out and everything. I am a Christian, but i dont go to an organized church(though i do participate in what is technically church. 3 or more people gathered in Jesus's name.) does that make me a sinner, no i am a sinner because i am human and i sin. Noone is free from sin. Jesus doesnt hate Homosexuals. I believe that Jesus said it best with "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone." Everyone is going on and on about how homosexuality is a sin and that it is horrible and like cursing God, but they don't look inward at themselves and realize that they too are sinners. What they are doing is pushing people away from Christianity with their whining and hatred when they should be trying their best to be a friend to all of the earth. Also a passage in the Bible deals with homosexuality saying that you shouldn't hate homosexuals, but instead treat them with love and caring to bring them into the faith. The Bible also states the you should hate the sin not the sinner.

ill leave you with this fill in the blank question for all of you who whine about homosexuality being evil because it is a sin:

Jesus died for our____________________.

I'll give you a hint it wasn't for our Dunkin Donuts

[patriots_1228 51]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: manticorefan Scripture is a package deal. Either it is true as a whole, or untrue as a whole. quote>

That is a logical fallacy. Just because one thing in a book is wrong does not mean everything else in the book is also wrong, and just because one thing in a book is right does not mean everything else in there is also right. It's perfectly valid, for instance, to say that Jesus was our savior but he never actually "rose from the dead"- that he just got crucified and went straight home to daddy (I don't believe that, it's just an example). Nobody can prove it one way or the other, it's all a matter of faith- and different people can put their faith in different things.

On interpretations, you guys are right. Interpretations are like....elbows, everybody's got at least one. That's the problem with people, you can't trust them to take a message properly. I don't see it as a problem with the text so much as a problem with the people who read it. Case in point: The President  of the USA wanting to argue over the meaning of the word 'is'. Remember that? In that kind of light, who would want anyone else's opinion on what the Bible means?quote>

The point is that your opinion is but one of many. We have no real way of knowing for sure what the proper way to interpret the bible is. We don't know what was going through the heads of the people (or deity, if you like) who wrote it. You may think one thing, but other people may also think other things and be equally justified in thinking them.

And as 6underground demonstrated, the bible can be quite a rorschach.

Ultimately, it's solely a matter of personal opinion. The Bible is like a Reese's peanut butter cup- there's no wrong way to eat it.quote>

 

I wasn't aware there were multiple ways to attack a reese's cup Theres only so much you can do with a little 2 inch circle.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: patriots_1228

I wasn't aware there were multiple ways to attack a reese's cup Theres only so much you can do with a little 2 inch circle.quote>

I guess those commercials were before your time. 

[wir3d 2]

Ok guys im not trying to take your rights away i was just quoting, ok?

Why are there some many homosexuals here?  Im not trying to be rude or anything but ST seems like it is a gay magnet.  Like you go to other sites and really don't see a vast spread of homosexuals.  Homosexuals don't take this has an offensive please.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Ok guys im not trying to take your rights away i was just quoting, ok?

Why are there some many homosexuals here? Im not trying to be rude or anything but ST seems like it is a gay magnet. Like you go to other sites and really don't see a vast spread of homosexuals. Homosexuals don't take this has an offensive please.quote>

Oh dear you just really aren't able to control yourself are you.

Maybe becuase ST has been a place where sexuality does not matter and you can showcase your creativity and express your views without being judged.....well at least most don't. Its also an international site and there as millions and millions of gays all around the world that probably enjoy SC4...you think here is bad, I dare you to raise those views at the SCJU or Adrian Union...wouldn't make it out alive ROLF

ST a gay magnet......this thread just gets better and better doesn't it.

[deadwoods 542]

Originally posted by: wir3d Ok guys im not trying to take your rights away i was just quoting, ok?

Why are there some many homosexuals here?  Im not trying to be rude or anything but ST seems like it is a gay magnet.  Like you go to other sites and really don't see a vast spread of homosexuals.  Homosexuals don't take this has an offensive please.quote>

Guess what, homosexuals are people too and many people still enjoy playing SimCity.

I was thinking about why the whole Creationism vs. Evolution thing is an issue. It's not because it's what a small portion of the Christian community believes. It's because that small portion is pushing it out of faith/belief and into public schools as an accepted science in some parts of the US. Why is this so? You don't see aspects of the Jewish, Islamic, Hundi, Buddhist, Shinto etc. faiths trying to be portrayed as science in teaching the young. If it was just in the home or church it wouldn't be an issue.

Is it just that those believing it as science are in concentrated pockets of the US ("Bible belt") and the whole States Rights vs. Federal Direction thing gives them enough voice? In most parts of the world, religious belief is taught at home, in church and at special religious schools. Public schools follow accepted curriculums and religion is kept to RE classes (which aren't compulsory in the public school system). If you want your kids to get the full benefit of your particular belief system, you send them to a school dedicated to it, you don't expect the public system to cater to your specific needs or impose your belief system on the entire community.

[Micah 16]

Why are there some many homosexuals here? Im not trying to be rude or anything but ST seems like it is a gay magnet. Like you go to other sites and really don't see a vast spread of homosexuals. Homosexuals don't take this has an offensive please. quote>

Gay magnet? I don't think I'd call it a gay magnet. First of all, homosexuals are known to be quite creative (not a stereotype at all; simply fact) and SC4 allows a large range of creativity. Also, I think homosexuals feel more comfortable here to express themselves without the worry of severe backlash. That's just my opinion... I'll let an actual homosexual answer your question though.

[belfastuniguy 18]

That's a good point.

I've been very concerned with some schools in the southern United States teaching creation as if it is fact....which it's not.

You need to detail both versions of the story and allow the children to determine themselves what they believe and not force flawed ideology onto them where they have no choice in the matter.

We were described both accounts of how the world came about in the school I attended and it was pretty rare to see someone support creation as it is currently described. Though we were an academic school where people had a better understanding of the world.

There does seem to be a growing culture in the United States primarily to introduce religious based teaching, something I find just a little distasteful, of course tell the kids about creation but don't tell them that creation is the only way earth was created. I still fail to understand how people can believe in the ridiculous view this entire earth was created in 6 days...