Creationism vs. Evolution

[ilikehotdogsalot 307]

This is so pathetic. Evolution has been proved numerous times as correct, but if you're religious you obviously don't care and are going to go for creationism.

Me being a 'fallen catholic', I tend to put my money on evolution.

EDIT: The Vatican only admitted that the world was not flat a few years ago . . .

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: manticorefan To claim to be a Christian and yet believe evolution means you have a serious misunderstanding of at least one of them.

You cannot deny the Bible and follow Christ; you must come down on one side or the other.

To paraphrase Paul: If an angel comes down from heaven and tells you something different from the Bible, believe the Bible. 

Christ said that lies would come along that were so convincing, they would deceive even the Elect if it were possible.

The Bible and evolution are at permanent emnity, period. To assauge the internal conflict by claiming them both is not really a genuine position, just a cop-out IMO.

quote>

But the Bible teaches creation twice; which one is right? Are we created from dirt? Did God make man, and later a woman out of man's rib? Or did he create "man" in his image, as both male and female?

Also, God has used nature before to help him achieve his goals. If he is God, the Almighty, it wouldn't be necessary to let it rain to flood the earth. Yet he still commanded nature, instead of going directly to the flood.

Originally posted by: wir3dI last time I checked the Bible was the first book ever plublished!quote>

The (Christian) Bible is made up of 66 books in all, and are merely a collection of all this books. The different books were also reviewed by humans, and collected by humans. Some were admitted, some were not.

Writings were first done on stones and woods, and later on scrolls. The Chinese started with printing around 1050, hundreds of years before Gutenberg--which is probably what you means by "first book ever published". And the reason for why he chose to do copies of the Bible first, was of course because of the market.

[autoVino 26]

Originally posted by: spacemanspiff The World is Flat

Here is another exercise I use in teaching.  The Flat Earth Society.   These folks actually argue that the world is flat.  My students all think it's nuts, so I tell them 'prove it'.  They actually make some good arguments in support of their flat idea.  The exercise is to use good science and debate to debunk the junk-science claims that the world is flat.  When all the flat earth arguments are rendered powerless, the people who argue for a flat Earth retreat to their last-ditch claim, "it's all a conspiracy, and you can't prove a thing!"

quote>

 

I just looked at the site more in depth and I have to say, they're pretty creative on their theories and arguments!

...Much like creationism, imho.  Explain to me, someone, just how there suddenly appears all this around us.  Quite a lot to come about so suddenly, eh?

[belfastuniguy 18]

People still seriously believe the world is flat???

I mean seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people.....whack jobs in personal view

[deadwoods 542]

Originally posted by: patriots_1228 Well, im chirstian and I beleive in evolution.

Last time i checked, i am still a member of my church. It's not up to you, or a rich german man with nice jewerly to tell anyone how to worship.

As far as im concerned, Creationism, like much of the bible, is just a story made up to better explain things in life and morals. The thing i digested from the story of creationism was not that god said "light" and there was light. thats rubbish. Instead, i digested the stuff about sinning and what not, because that was really the whole point of the story, sinning moves you away from god. Alot of the bible is exaggerated and made up, to help teach us better. Saying "Jesus helped the boy overcome his insecurity about being blind" does not get to us like saying "Jesus cured the boy's blindness".quote>

Well put. Just because some fundamentalist sects/denominations of Christianity believe in Creationism doesn't mean all Christians do. The term Christianity refers to all religions that believe in Christ; Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Evangelical Protestants, etc. Last time I looked Catholics were the majority of Christians around the world, and the teachings of CofE, Anglicans etc. isn't all that different.

My Catholic education taught the Old Testament as stories in Religious Ed classes, but we studied Evolution in the Science classes. I would assume that's the same in most Catholic schools around the world. My father has a significant involvement in many of the Catholic church organisations (Vinnies, Order of Malta, the local church) and is an active student of theology. He is happy with the approach that the Old Testament was a series of stories designed to teach the Israelites how to lead a better life and are not intended to be taken verbatim.

So to say a Christian must believe in Creationism or cannot claim to be a Christian is implying that all Christianity is just the fundamentalist sects in the US, rather than the billions of people believing in Christ around the world (Catholics, Protestants, etc.).

[wir3d 2]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

To claim to be a Christian and yet believe evolution means you have a serious misunderstanding of at least one of them.quote>

I disagree..

I am a Christian but I believe in evolution. I do believe in God and believe he was present at the very very beginning of the creation of the universe. I can't explain why I believe that I just believe it. The fact is that no-one really knows anything until they die. You can be a Christian and believe in creation as I was taught in my Catholic primary school, but after further education at grammar I moved to the evolution side of things. Your mind is not a book that cannot be changed, it can be easily influenced and developed over time as you become more educated and become more aware of the world around you.

I also don't agree that by being a Christian means you are confined to the teaching set out by the churches. To be a Christian in my view is believing in God and Jesus, I see myself as a liberal Christian fully able to make my own mind up and not be subject to a church or a book. I disregard a lot of what the church and Bible say because they were never written by God himself nor did god establish the churches we see today. They were all created by man and in the early days to suit the whim of those in control.

Any way, some of that was off-topic, but thought I'd just air my view. quote>

 

You' re Christian and believe that abortion is fine and that you think evolution is true?  Wow total missunderstanding.  As i said"  You are either on one side of the fence, never in the middle". 

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: wir3d

You' re Christian and believe that abortion is fine and that you think evolution is true?  Wow total missunderstanding.  As i said"  You are either on one side of the fence, never in the middle". quote>

Actually, very few things in the world are totally black or totally white.  Most issues involve many shades of gray.

In other words, there is a lot of ground in the middle.

[beebs 129]

Being a Christian is not synonymous with being a creationist.

[wir3d 2]

Ok explain this beeb?

[belfastuniguy 18]

You' re Christian and believe that abortion is fine and that you think evolution is true? Wow total missunderstanding. As i said" You are either on one side of the fence, never in the middle". quote>

Yeah........SO???

My mind is not programmed by the church I am capable of free thought and making my own mind up on several issues. Just like I am a Christian and I'm also gay. As Skigeek says nothing is black and white and how the hell do you know whether God disapproves of abortion???? The fact is you don't as no person on this earth knows what God thinks or Jesus for that matter. Organised religion was created by man to suit man.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: beebs

Being a Christian is not synonymous with being a creationist.quote>

Originally posted by: wir3d

Ok explain this beeb?quote>

I'll take a swing at it . . .

It is possible to believe that Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God, sent here to save us from our sins -- and therefore be a Christian -- and still believe in evolution.  The two beliefs are not contradictory at all.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Aah, the classic question: If you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does it have?

4, of course. Calling a dog's tail a leg don't make it so.

Christianity is a set of propositions. If you reject these propositions, you simply are not a Christian. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face, but it will not change the facts.

I could call myself a Ba'hai, Scientologist, or Wiccan if I want, but it would be silly to do so if I reject their philosophy as I do.

If you reject organized religion, you are rejecting Christianity, and there is no 'gray area'. To state otherwise would be a direct contradiction in terms. Read again what the Bible says about the role of the church, and how it is to function. 2 things become clear; one is that the church (body of believers) is organized, complete with hierarchy. The other is how far mainstream religion has drifted from Scriptural teaching. Not in terms of organization, but terms of doctrine.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Read again what the Bible says about the role of the church, and how it is to function.

quote>

But that is a different topic.  There are millions of people who believe in the basic tenets of Christianity but do not take the Bible literally.  

I know it is popular among some groups to claim these people are "not really Christian".   Christianity on this planet involves a lot of groups with a wide variety of beliefs.  I don't see how any one of them gets to pass judgment on the others.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: beebs

Being a Christian is not synonymous with being a creationist.quote>

Originally posted by: wir3d

Ok explain this beeb?quote>

I'll take a swing at it . . .

It is possible to believe that Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God, sent here to save us from our sins -- and therefore be a Christian -- and still believe in evolution.  The two beliefs are not contradictory at all.quote>

Yeah, it's not hard at all.

[belfastuniguy 18]

If you reject organized religion, you are rejecting Christianity, and there is no 'gray area'. To state otherwise would be a direct contradiction in terms. Read again what the Bible says about the role of the church, and how it is to function. 2 things become clear; one is that the church (body of believers) is organized, complete with hierarchy. The other is how far mainstream religion has drifted from Scriptural teaching. Not in terms of organization, but terms of doctrine.quote>

No it doesn't.. The bible was not written by God or Jesus, organised religion was not created by God or Jesus. For all we know they are a pack of lies that were developed to suit the time period they were created in. Christians are not one unified church, each 'group' have their own ideas and values. However if you believe the very simple and core teaching that Jesus came to earth to save us from sin as the son of god then nothing else matters. Everything else that came after was created, developed and crafted by man.

You can be a Christian and not follow the Bible. It's a just a book that neither Jesus nor God wrote. Just as you can be a Christian without the need to step inside a church. Now if Jesus or God came down to earth today and told us what we should believe and gave us his holy book then yeah I would follow that. Fact is he hasn't.

[wir3d 2]

Ok that's were you are wrong. Yes i did just say your wrong. Rule Christians should live by: "If it contradicts the Bible it is wrong". So you can't be a Christian and believe in evolution or be gay. It contradicts the Bible!!

[Voar Tok 4]

OK, everyone, I'm sensing the need to chill out for a minutes before you post anything.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: wir3d

Ok that's were you are wrong. Yes i did just say your wrong. Rule Christians should live by: "If it contradicts the Bible it is wrong". So you can't be a Christian and believe in evolution or be gay. It contradicts the Bible!!quote>

That is your opinion.   or, more accurately, your belief.  Not everyone shares it.   That doesn't make them wrong.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Ok that's were you are wrong. Yes i did just say your wrong. Rule Christians should live by: "If it contradicts the Bible it is wrong". So you can't be a Christian and believe in evolution or be gay. It contradicts the Bible!!quote>

Well actually I can. Just becuase your homophobic religious teaching says I can't doesn't make you right.

The Bible is fallible, suffering from the shortcomings resulting from being written, censored, translated, and revised by humans who wrote down the prior oral tradition.

Also, thankfully I live in society that is not controlled by people like you with you fundamentalist Christianity that seeks to impose its views on everyone else and ignores reason. When I hear people like you make such comments it makes me very happy that religion in my country is losing importance and we are becoming more secular, exactly because of the views that some supposedly Christian churches have on the issues you raised.

[wir3d 2]

Ok that is one of the most important statement in the Bible. How does it not make them wrong? You really believe that being gay is not wrong and all that nonsense that the world throwes out there? Don't you think there is a MAN and a WOMAN for a reason?

Wait let me cool down like VT said...............

[belfastuniguy 18]

Edit: Also, any church that peaches hate and intolerance does not deserve or have the right to call themselves a Christian church. Indeed you yourself with the views you expressed and you blatant homophobia can't really describe yourself a Christian.....lets not be a hypocrite.

[hym 358]

Please remember to talk about the issues, and not each other.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Ok that is one of the most important statement in the Biblequote>

Actually the Bible rarely mentions homosexuality. It existed very very long before the Bible was even and before Jesus came to earth and most likely will always exist.

Don't you think there is a MAN and a WOMAN for a reasonquote>

Yeah we have men for hetrosexual women as well as for bisexual/homosexual men and we have women for hetrosexual men and bisexual women and lesbians...Its really very simple..

Wait let me cool down like VT said............... quote>

What...and spare us you disgusting homophobia???

[wir3d 2]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

Wait let me cool down like VT said............... quote>

What...and spare us you disgusting homophobia???quote>

 

Yeah don't say that again please.  I don't take that homo crap lightly.

And just because the Bible only mentions it once or twice still does not mean it is correct.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Sorry was that offensive of my calling you a homophobic fundamentalist?......my heart bleeds..really it does

[Meg 368]

okay, guys, let's all calm down a bit.

Let's talk about the issues and not each other.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy [

Actually the Bible rarely mentions homosexuality. It existed very very long before the Bible was even and before Jesus came to earth and most likely will always exist.

quote>

 

It is condemned every time it is mentioned. But as Christ said, '..such were some of you'.

And in response to your previous post, I must ask: Where then do you get your ideas about Christ? If the Bible isn't the Word of God, then why believe anything it says about Christ, or even God? It's like God was smart enough to create the universe, but couldn't figure out how to write His own book?

I'm not trying to start a flame war, so please stay cool everyone. There are just a lot of misconceptions about what being a Christian really means. It's not a democracy, doctrine is not determined by popular vote or 'the mores of the day'. It really is authoritarian, and you either take it or leave it. It isn't a buffet of tenets to pick and choose from, taking only what suits you.

Not that you are accountable to me for your own beliefs; I am simply stating fact. Too many people see gray areas not where there is one, but where they want one. Again, that don't make it so.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Well God didn't take a pen and a write the bible himself, its a collection of books brought together over time. Different Christian faiths have different versions, some don't even include books other versions have, so its hardly one unified book to bring together all Christian faiths. So to be honest the Bible is not a best thing to judge all Christians by. The old Testament was written before Jesus even set foot on earth so we can't be certain in any way that he agreed with all that it said.

Christian teaching has never been set in stone and has been subject to change and revision. What branch are we suppose to believe?? The fact is nothing is black and white and especially religion, its one of the greyest areas of interpretation out there.

and yes I am not accountable to you or anyone else for my beliefs bar God, if God doesn't like my views then I'll find out when I die...fact is no-one knows if they are right or not. God could hate the Pope for all we know...and we won't till we die and find out, if you believe such a thing happens when you die.

[confused04 14]

Well, being the anti-organized religion guy that I am, I do think the Bible surely is up to interpretation and being Christian isn't strictly defined by following a specific doctrine. There are indeed gray areas allowing for different denominations and beliefs. There are many teachings that some Christians put more emphasis on than others. Some put more emphasis of tolerance and loving thy neighbor than condemning homosexuals. If being "Christian" was to follow the teachings of a specific interpretation than what denomination should be determined as "the true Christian denomination". I'm sure that'll be easy to work out :\

You certainly can call yourself a Christian if you believe in the general happenings of the New Testament but choose to ignore/pass over/lessen the importance of other lines. Just because you don't particularly adhere to one sentence in one paragraph in one testament, it doesn't mean you aren't a Christian. Certainly if you reject Jesus as the savior, then you aren't. But if you do and disagree on some issues, you are still a Christian. Its all interpretation.

Certainly, denying the literal interpretation of Creationism does not suddenly make you "not a Christian." You can always read the Bible figuratively like I believe its supposed to be. Figurative speech wasn't the invention of the Renaissance, its been around for far longer. From the little bit of Presbyterian Sunday school I did have,  we had entire lessons on the "metaphorical meaning" of passages, and these passages had to have a metaphorical meaning to even have any semblance of purpose. The Creation story, in my opinion, was meant to be read figuratively. I don't need to take that bit of the Bible literally to believe in the omnipotence of a God, i think the whole resurrection bit, talking as a burning bush and stuff kinda does the job. Oh, and I can't forget the so called world wide flood.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Bible is not the direct word of God and has been altered for a variety of reasons. There are translations, misinterpretations, editing (choosing of books) and such for whatever reasons, be it political or religious.

Evolution and the story of creation aren't mutually exclusive. I see no problem with saying "God defines the laws of Science" You can always say God determines that water forms ice at 0 C, or God determines the speed of light, or God guides natural selection. If God is the omnipotent power that he is, then we should be impressed by the laws of nature that he has created.

[coolotter88 2]

so you don't do work on the sabbath and you kill whoever does? come on, the bible has its outdated parts for our modern society because it IS a book that's thousands of years old (or for christians, as old as the universe which happens to be 6000 years *rolley eyes*). I think a new modern bible needs to be compiled because some of the ideals written are not pertinent to the times we live in.