Creationism vs. Evolution

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: Duke87 What's next, burning books? quote>

It's already happening across the US. Religious folk are a medieval, primitive people. (Humorous link.)

EDIT: Duke, I COMPLETELY agree with you on your statement "Seriously, creationism and all these other nutty religious movements are destroying America." We have to push them back into the shadows where they belong. America was a country born out of the ENLIGHTENMENT, not out of religiosity. (Only the tinder-happy Puritans came here to practice their freaky religion freely, which itself was too nutty to be embraced even by crazy-religious 18th century Europe.) We will become an oppressive theocracy just like much of Europe was in the 18th century. America was founded as a liberal republic to escape that situation, and now fundies keep making up about how we have to return to our "Christian roots."

-- Edited for language. Please do not use foul language. - Mike

-- Edited for content that can cause an off topic argument. - Mike

What's always struck me as odd is how Christians are so anti-abortion, but they support the death penalty and warfare. Your God sees everyone as equal (your bible says so), so what gives you the authority to deem certain individuals as "criminals" and kill them? (Would you guys kill a baby-faced criminal? ) According to your own belief system, only God has the right to decide who lives or dies, so why do you allow some types of killing over others? There is no loophole in the commandment "You shall not kill."

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: marcszar

Originally posted by: Duke87 What's next, burning books? quote>

It's already happening across the US. Religious folk are a medieval, primitive people. quote>

Whats more primitive, practicing freedom of religion and expression; or denoucing ones beliefs with insults?

[Mikeaut1 261]

Ugh.

Did we not specify like two pages ago that creationism's main points are based off of faith? You aren't going to find hardcore evidence that creationism is true! And evolution is just a theory too. To be quite honest, there aren't many persuasive points to evolution anyway!

How much actual, undeniable evidence is there supporting creationism, or even the existence of a god? Zilch. Science may not have the answers to everything, but the answers it does give it actually supports with more than "this book says so". quote>

Again, F-A-I-T-H. It's something that Christians/believers of creationism base their beliefs in! If you call people crazy for having faith in something, then you need to check yourself. Religions and their beliefs all stem around faith, and creationism being a highly religious topic persay, also require faith. So I don't know how many times we are going to beat this into the wall. Sure, if evolution sounds better to you and you believe some of the points that compliment evolution, then good for you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Seriously, creationism and all these other nutty religious movements are destroying America. You expect me to actually accept creationism as more than a load of nonsense.quote>

Now that's just absurd. Creationism is soley a belief. How is a belief destroying America? Is evolution not a belief? No one is asking anyone to accept creationism, at least not in this thread. We're debating about the two beliefs.

Nutty religious movements? Religion in America has been seen and practiced way before atheism emerged. America was soley founded upon religion as well. So, atheism and a belief in no God is something totally new to the United States.

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove

Originally posted by: marcszar

Originally posted by: Duke87 What's next, burning books? quote>

It's already happening across the US. Religious folk are a medieval, primitive people. quote>

Whats more primitive, practicing freedom of religion and expression; or denoucing ones beliefs with insults?quote>

That wasn't an insult; it's a scientific observation.

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Originally posted by: marcszar

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove

Originally posted by: marcszar

Originally posted by: Duke87 What's next, burning books? quote>

It's already happening across the US. Religious folk are a medieval, primitive people. quote>

Whats more primitive, practicing freedom of religion and expression; or denoucing ones beliefs with insults?quote>

That wasn't an insult; it's a scientific observation. quote>

Well, if you base science on quick judgements without evidence, I can see how evolution comes in to play.

[schm0 27]

Ok, people. Time to reign ourselves back in, once again.

Let's stop posting insults and fake websites that do nothing other than incite more insults.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: marcszar

-- Edited -- Mike

What's always struck me as odd is how Christians are so anti-abortion, but they support the death penalty and warfare. Your God sees everyone as equal (your bible says so), so what gives you the authority to deem certain individuals as "criminals" and kill them? (Would you guys kill a baby-faced criminal? ) According to your own belief system, only God has the right to decide who lives or dies, so why do you allow some types of killing over others? There is no loophole in the commandment "You shall not kill."quote>

 

Correction, atheism under communist enforcement has killed more people than all religious wars in all of human history combined, and did it in the last 100 years. 

In the original Hebrew, the word used for kill in that commandment was 'to kill with evil intent'. You are expressly allowed killing in times of self defense, defense of others, and war when necessary. In an instance in the Old Testament, a king went to war against the advice of the prophets, and the nation lost terribly. David was not allowed to build the Temple because he was a man who had been to war and killed men. It wasn't a sin, but it was sufficient to disqualify him in the eyes of God for that particular purpose. So it's not like God is a lover of death.

How can I be pro death penalty and anti-abortion? That's not a hard viewpoint; kill only those who have committed a sufficiently heinous crime. The Bible calls civil gov't the sword of justice. Not staff, scales, or olive branch. If they are innocent, then it is the duty of the state to protect them.

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Correction, atheism under communist enforcement has killed more people than all religious wars in all of human history combined, and did it in the last 100 years. quote>

It's not nice to lie. Read this please.

(I assume you read more than just the bible.)

You are expressly allowed killing in times of self defense, defense of others, and war when necessary.quote>

Since Christians can make up reasons for "self defense" and "war" whenever they want ("God told me to start one"), they can pretty much kill whenever they want.

And here's what one of our founding fathers has to say about the matter: "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." -Thomas Jefferson

And since our founding fathers are held in the highest regard, we should do exactly as they say- suppress Christianity in the US in favor of deism.

EDIT: To Voar Toak: Yes, and is that encouraged among Christians? By the way, "I believe I've heard" statements may take you far in the faith-based world, but will get you nowhere in the scientifically/objectively analyzed world.

[Voar Tok 4]

Spoken from the man that wrote his own Bible, and I believe I've heard that the only thing he changed was to omit the miracles.

EDIT: Yes, I know the "I believe" doesn't care science very far, but the thing about Thomas Jefferson wasn't scientific, now was it?

[ilikehotdogsalot 307]

i'm what you call a 'fallen' catholic i haven't believed in god since like, 2nd grade, but i don't go around preaching around how everyone should stop practicing their religions because of my beliefs. i don't see the point of debating creationism vs. evolution, you can't change a person's own beliefs.

[schm0 27]

So much for staying on topic. Moderator?

[Micah 16]

We have to push them back into the shadows where they belong. America was a country born out of the ENLIGHTENMENT, not out of religiosity.quote>

Actually, both. From Princeton to Harvard, they were all founded for religious reasons including creating missionaries. People came here for religious freedom where they could worship freely and express their religion without being persecuted. Many religious principles guided our country, even including some Islamic ones, which can be seen throughout the Supreme Court building. And what was the first national movement in America? Was it enlightenment revolution? No, it was the Great Awakening.

So yes, it was born on both enlightenment and religious principles. 

Edit:

So much for staying on topic. Moderator?quote>

It's moved away from the original topic so much that.... well, nevermind. I'm considering moving many of these posts to the Simtropolis House of Worship. Personally, despite the unneeded comments from people who were worried about offending others in another thread, I actually feel we have a good conversation here which is quite interesting to read. Currently, both sides are getting their points across fairly well, in my opinion.

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: Micah Many religious principles guided our country, even including some Islamic ones, which can be seen throughout the Supreme Court building. quote>

Can you post some links for this? (I don't doubt you at all, I just find this fascinating and would love to read more about it, but can't find it mentioned anywhere. So if you have some sources... please post! )

[Micah 16]

Originally posted by: marcszar

Originally posted by: Micah Many religious principles guided our country, even including some Islamic ones, which can be seen throughout the Supreme Court building. quote>

Can you post some links for this? (I don't doubt you at all, I just find this fascinating and would love to read more about it, but can't find it mentioned anywhere. So if you have some sources... please post! )quote>

 

Well, I'm basing my statement on the mural (is that what it is?) along the upper-wall in the Supreme Court building which indicates that the building was founded on wisdom and religious principles to guide the judges to make the correct decisions. The mural includes Moses (right?), Muhammid, and other key religious figures.

Edit: This is not fact yet, but the title of this thread is subject to change.

[airmale007 3]

No compelling evidence for evolution?

    I disagree. Every instance of a bacterium developing transforming (that is, uptaking foreign DNA) is an example of evolution, and of natural selection. The bacteria that successfully integrate the genes that code for the antibiotic resistance will remain viable despite the presence of said antibiotic, while those who do not will die as a result. This is just as valid on the level of more complex organisms, as suggested by Darwin in his Origin of Species.

    Darwin's concept of descent with modification is directly connected to natural selection. Using the term "fitness" as a quantitative measure of an organism's ability to reproduce (including surviving the period leading up to maturity), we can trace the development of traits inherited in organisms.

    The organism exhibiting the greatest fitness, or highest success rate, will have trait AA, which is by definition that of higher fitness than the lesser version of that trait, Aa, or the absence of that trait, aa.

    It follows then, by standard patterns of Mendelian inheritance, that the organisms most likely to reproduce would be those with trait AA, thereby passing it onto their offspring. Those with trait aa, the least likely to propagate, would be naturally selected, and manifestation of the trait would be eliminated or greatly diminished.

[Ron Swanson 1]

Let's get something straight. There are facets of evolution that are entirely true and have been seen and documented. What hasn't been seen and documented is how evolution got started (i.e. big bang theory) and how macroevolution occured (i.e. ape-like creature=human). Otherwise things like natural selection and such are very much true. Let's not dissmiss evolution entirely, only the parts where there belief, at the core of it all, comes right down to faith. It really does.

[Ron Swanson 1]

Wow, hadn't read Duke's and marcszar's comments. Well you would be right marczar's, there are a lot of people out there who do horrible things in the name of God and of Christianity. Hey, lets not deny history. But to be perfectly honest, these people were not Christians by any means. They hid behind the veil of what is "religion." Religion as an institution has strayed so far away from it meant to be a "Christian." You want rules, and good deeds, and what you "think" God is telling you to do. You think the God of the Bible commanded people to go hate people, to damn them to hell, to judge, kill, and take people's money through the miracle of television? No. The God I know, I believe in, says to love your neighbour. Treat others as you would want to be treated. To have kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control. The 10 commandments wasn't a tablet of guidelines, to pick and choose from. There may be wrath in God, but only when someone has turned their back on him after He gave them chance after chance after chance. So lets get it straight. A Christian, by definition, is a follower of Christ. Not a religious nut who thinks their job is condemn atheists and evolutionists. I can't apologize for millions of people over thousands of years, but if that is what the definition of a Christian is to you guys, a religous nut, then who are we to change your minds? No one can. No one is allowed to.

So this whole "debate" is not in order to change each others minds, but to understand where we come from and where you come from, and that is what makes this country great. Free speech, allowing ideas and theories to be discussed freely without being persectuted. Refute, deny, blast all you want, but it won't get anyone anywhere, it will only create more animosity.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: marcszar

It's not nice to lie. Read this please.

(I assume you read more than just the bible.)

[quote>

 

Oh please, an atheist site supporting atheism. Whatsa matter, couldn't find Richard Dawkins' cell #?  When I post a link, it's thoroughly scrutinized so I thought I could be the out-of-hand dismisser this time. 

 A lie? Stalin, 50-60 million. Mao, possibly 80 million. Those two together more than outweigh all religious wars. Atheism under communism is the biggest killer of mankind of them all. Seriously. Stop trying to paint religion with the blood of atheism's victims. Those untold millions wish it were a lie. 

Let's use a football analogy for the next point: The Patriots got caught cheating. Does this mean that football is all a fraud, and we should shut down the NFL and all the stadiums? No, of course not. But when you blame religion for some people's actions because they call themselves religious, that's what you are saying, in effect. Judging God by the actions of men. 

And no, I don't watch televangelists, and never have. Most of them are charlatans who twist the Bible for their own purposes. They will be judged as well.

[marc 13]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Oh please, an atheist site supporting atheism. quote>

Apparently you didn't read the text. I sympathize with you- deeply philosophical and critical texts are just too hard to comprehend, it's just better to stick with the bible.

And no, I don't watch televangelists, and never have. Most of them are charlatans who twist the Bible for their own purposes. They will be judged as well.quote>

Listen to the judge judge the judges!

EDIT: Sorry, it's just that fundietalk makes for some excellent comedy.

[airmale007 3]

Originally posted by: manticorefan

Originally posted by: marcszar

It's not nice to lie. Read this please.

(I assume you read more than just the bible.)

[quote>

 

Oh please, an atheist site supporting atheism. Whatsa matter, couldn't find Richard Dawkins' cell #?  When I post a link, it's thoroughly scrutinized so I thought I could be the out-of-hand dismisser this time. 

 A lie? Stalin, 50-60 million. Mao, possibly 80 million. Those two together more than outweigh all religious wars. Atheism under communism is the biggest killer of mankind of them all. Seriously. Stop trying to paint religion with the blood of atheism's victims. Those untold millions wish it were a lie. 

Let's use a football analogy for the next point: The Patriots got caught cheating. Does this mean that football is all a fraud, and we should shut down the NFL and all the stadiums? No, of course not. But when you blame religion for some people's actions because they call themselves religious, that's what you are saying, in effect. Judging God by the actions of men. 

And no, I don't watch televangelists, and never have. Most of them are charlatans who twist the Bible for their own purposes. They will be judged as well.quote>

Communism doesn't straight up endorse atheism in most respects. To assume that the 50-60 million killed by Stalin's regime and the 80 million you suppose were killed by Mao's government is to be willfully ignorant. Just because Marx was harshly critical of religion doesn't mean his philosophy was employed to the fullest extent. Even psychopathic dictators can see limitations.

Besides which, your argument leaves open a gaping logical fallacy by implying that any killings by a supposedly Atheist society somehow cancels out the various massacres that have occurred in the name of "God".

Though, I fail to see what any of this has to do with Creationism/"Intelligent Design" or Evolution anyway... but I digress.

[ShortStraw 1]

I agree, the human capacity for violence is irrelevant to the Creationism vs Evolution debate.

As far as I am concerned, the most salient point in all this is the validation of Evolution as an appropriate science that will be taught in the science curriculum of public schools.  I have nothing particularly critical to say about Creationism but I do believe that it is a theological matter that should be taught by private institutions and parents.  Christian Science  and "Intelligent Design" pundits have an  irritating habit of trying to  replace Evolution with their own systems in public schools every few years.  Here is a site that makes this point better than I do.

And finally, insulting or attempting to discredit the opposing viewpoint doesn't actually strengthen your case, regardless of who you are or what your stance on the issue is.

[coolotter88 2]

-- Edited. Don't attack anyone personally. - Mike

also, Short Straw is right, evolution is the most secular way of explaining how life CHANGES THROUGH TIME, not how it was created. -- Dont attack anyone personally. 

THERE IS NO ARGUMENT BETWEEN EVOLUTION AND CREATIONISM.

evolution is true, if you say otherwise, you're wrong and you should go hide in a cave or something because the two are entirely different topics. I don't even understand WHY there is a debate in the FIRST place

-Edited for content-

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Wow, so much flaming... Now let's argue the origin and placement of the finger which I extend to those who use 'fundie' as a derogatory term, or suggest that people who don't buy into evolution are stupid. If you like I can upload a pic.

[Sam 163]

Originally posted by: Sc4_cewl

...

Also, I can't include pluraltheistic religions because then it just become confusing. I think mostly in the debate of evolution vs. creationism that creationism stems from the Christian/Jew idea, not the Wicca/Islam ideas. I suppose if a representative from those religions wanted to imput their ideas, they would be free to, but if there aren't any I don't see the purpose of debating other religions idea of God. Like I said, its not the most important point on here.

...quote>

I think most religions have their creation myths. What makes one particular religion's creation more important than any other? You never know who is reading this thread. Something that seems to you to have no purpose may indeed have purpose for another.

Originally posted by: Sc4_cewl ...

Science by nature is inclusive.

...quote>

I do not understand what you mean by this. In what way is science inclusive?

Originally posted by: Sc4_cewl ...

Science by nature is inclusive. You cannot prove half of what they claim mathmatically.

...quote>

Actually there is a lot of mathematical basis in the science of evolution. Perhaps you just are not familiar with it. If you pick up any reputable scientific peer reviewed journal of evolution and I'm sure you will see a lot of mathematics used. However if you read pop science (eg new scientist) you will see a lot less mathematics used. The reason is that most people read pop science for enjoyment and to get a basic overview of a current issue, but don't want to get bogged down in the nitty gritty of complex mathematics.

The same is true of high school textbooks. They are designed to give a brief overview of the general concepts, not to provide a comprehensive mathematical coverage of what is an extensive scientific field.

I find it virtually inconceivable to think of evolution science without mathematics involved. For example the mathematics of hypothesis testing, population biology, phylogenetics to name just a few fields that are strongly dependent on mathematics. I wouldn't suggest anyone take up evolution science if they dislike maths.

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove

Originally posted by: Duke87

How much actual, undeniable evidence is there supporting creationism, or even the existence of a god? Zilch. Science may not have the answers to everything, but the answers it does give it actually supports with more than "this book says so". quote>

Quite a bit actually, if you'd actually read parts of the bible you'd know this. (I'm sure atheists read the bible, where else would they get their false claims from? Gotta start the manipulation from somewhere)...quote>

Frankie_Grove: Your comment sounds like you are implying that the false claims are in the bible, which the atheists then find. I assume this is not what you meant though. However perhaps you could elaborate on the false claims you are referring to. If you make a statement, especially one such as this, then you should support it with evidence and examples.

Originally posted by: Frankie_Grove

Originally posted by: Duke87

How much actual, undeniable evidence is there supporting creationism, or even the existence of a god? Zilch. Science may not have the answers to everything, but the answers it does give it actually supports with more than "this book says so". quote>

Quite a bit actually, if you'd actually read p

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Mikeaut1 261]

This thread is being closed temporarily for the following reasons:

1) The thread has been given many warnings before regarding flaming. The last few posts have been filled with more flaming and fingerpointing than I've ever seen on a Simtropolis thread. 

2) This thread is quickly deteriorating away from harmless, creative argument. 

3) The moderators now have to clean up the mess that certain people have left in this thread. 

I realize that this thread is pretty popular and most of its participants are enjoying the thread, but in an effort to prevent the thread from heading even farther down the wrong path, it is best to let it alone for a period of time. I hope people understand this.

Please check back later to see if the thread is opened yet. 

-- Thread Closed --

EDIT

This thread is now reopened. To keep it reopened, only harmless debate is allowed here. There shall be no flaming of others, spamming, or any other comments that would ultimately hurt another's feelings. This thread is being watched very closely by the moderators!

[Palpatine001 57]

[after 5 days of eating popcorn and drinking enough coffee to sink a carrier]

Hmmm

[flicks channels]

Damn Re Runs...

[Leaves room]

-Jesus Christ has left the  building-

[vistla 3]

If "God" did not exist,........it would be necessary to invent him.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

DesCartes!

[vistla 3]

Charts?! How about this; "Der wille zur macht!"?