Creationism vs. Evolution

[krbe 193]

The mere fact that this discussion even takes place makes people shudder in some parts of the world... The world's most powerful and influential country, a civilised industrial nation, last remaining superpower, sitting on a huge arsenal of conventional and nuclear weapons, and this is how it educates (part of) its youth?

Maybe Louisiana is not that powerful and influential at all, not civilised and industrial nor sitting on a huge arsenal of weapons? No need to teach kids science if they're not about to harness the atom or launch missiles.

[Meg 368]

Maybe Louisiana is not that powerful and influential at all, not civilised and industrial nor sitting on a huge arsenal of weapons?

People from Louisiana get elected to the Senate and the House of Representatives. and they are involved in managing things like the Gulf of Mexico. (oil, anyone?)

No need to teach kids science if they're not about to harness the atom or launch missiles.

Excuse me? No need to teach kids? One major thing wrong with the country is the poor quality of the education system. Other countries are leaving us in the dust when it comes to education. This can not be good.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ I think a lump of sarcasm was missed there.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

The mere fact that this discussion even takes place makes people shudder in some parts of the world... The world's most powerful and influential country, a civilised industrial nation, last remaining superpower, sitting on a huge arsenal of conventional and nuclear weapons, and this is how it educates (part of) its youth?

Maybe Louisiana is not that powerful and influential at all, not civilised and industrial nor sitting on a huge arsenal of weapons? No need to teach kids science if they're not about to harness the atom or launch missiles.

I certainly hope you were being Sarcastic. Like Meg mentioned, the Gulf? Governor Bobby Jindal apparently attempted to run for President recently but was denied. I guess that wasn't a public thing because I only found out about it recently... EDIT: I'm pretty sure that T Wrecks wasn't refering to only Louisiana with this. In fact I never hear anything against Evolution in Louisiana. I live here, but I might not be so well informed. And we are A LOT more civilized than you'd think.

Back to the Topic at hand. I wonder why that some of these people, clinging to their faith too much, ever think that God used Evolution? I guess that'd be wishful thinking trying to explain that as a theory to people like that..

  Edited April 13, 2012 by Sgt Pepper  

[Meg 368]

^ I think a lump of sarcasm was missed there.

Hopefully. But I've heard too many people seriously say that their kids don't need no schooling.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

^ And that's a scary thought as well!

I'm recently 18 about to graduate and get on to College. I want my education.

[Duke87 1,070]

We are a country founded in part by religious crazies who were driven out of Europe because their religious craziness wasn't tolerated there. You expect things to change?

[LastTrueChamp 196]

We are a country founded in part by religious crazies who were driven out of Europe because their religious craziness wasn't tolerated there. You expect things to change?

Slowly but surely I expect things to change. As we become increasingly dependent on science and technology and as the older generations thin out I'm thinking we'll some visible change. At least I hope we will.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

We are a country founded in part by religious crazies who were driven out of Europe because their religious craziness wasn't tolerated there. You expect things to change?

Slowly but surely I expect things to change. As we become increasingly dependent on science and technology and as the older generations thin out I'm thinking we'll some visible change. At least I hope we will.

After 200+ years nothing much has changed except the crazies have persisted into the age of communications. Hope springs eternal, but despair is found in the heart of every person who considers himself downtrodden. There is room for both ideas in modern thought, and clinging to one while abhorring the other is a typical human failing.

Religion depends on myth and faith in that myth. You can still have faith and believe in the facts as well.

And this found while perusing my database:

Evolution is as much a fact as the earth turning on its axis and going around

the sun. At one time this was called the Copernican theory; but, when

evidence for a theory becomes so overwhelming that no informed person

can doubt it, it is customary for scientists to call it a fact. That all

present life descended from earlier forms, over vast stretches of geologic

time, is as firmly established as Copernican cosmology. Biologists differ

only with respect to theories about how the process operates.

- Martin Gardner, "Irving Kristol and the Facts of Life",

The Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. XII No. 2, ppg. 128-131

  Edited April 14, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[ziemz 9]

The theory of evolution is not a substitute for creation. The theory of evolution states how species have come to exist, not how life began. Both could be true, a cell was created and after that evolved into its present forms. The point is that you can't debunk creationism with evolution. They are completely unrelated subjects.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well yes, but the creation of single cell life isn't the point. The point is where did the big bang come from? The science guys are still out on that, and probably will never get an answer that satisfies the scientific method. The problem with creationism is it tries to start far too late with some speculative documents written in ancient times.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 9, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Evolution is not involved in either the establishment of cellular life, nor in the Big Bang. It is all about how life changes over time due to the attributes of a specific organism.

B

Interesting thought. However, life appears to be an accident (inevitable, perhaps).

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 9, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[LivingInThePast 364]

I don't see how it has to be an "or" situation, the same people who try to make "science the enemy of religion" and vice versa. I think that some species have evolved over time, but not the "billions of years from archaebacteria" theory.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I don't see how it has to be an "or" situation, the same people who try to make "science the enemy of religion" and vice versa.!! I think that some species have evolved over time, but not the "billions of years from archaebacteria" theory.

!! Seems like a subject without a predicate. Did you drop a line?

[Haljackey 17,270]

Bill Nye the Science Guy has something to say about this:

Some really good points. The last bit reminds me of the movie Idiocracy

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Completely rational and probably correct.

If you don't believe in evolution, do you also believe in the Pillars of Hercules? Will you fall of the edge of the earth? There is a cliff in the Gros Morne which is reputed to be at one of the corners. Why not drop over and see.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Loved Bill Nye the Science Guy.

Faith and the Scientific Theory are not compatible.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Loved Bill Nye the Science Guy.

Faith and the Scientific Theory are not compatible.

Nonsense, there is no rule that states that you cant believe in God and science at the same time. And for the vast majority of people who believe in God and who have a moderate belief structure, science and faith are just two things that complement each other.

[Haljackey 17,270]

Loved Bill Nye the Science Guy.

Faith and the Scientific Theory are not compatible.

Nonsense, there is no rule that states that you cant believe in God and science at the same time. And for the vast majority of people who believe in God and who have a moderate belief structure, science and faith are just two things that complement each other.

Well until you meet this dilemma:

[Meg 368]

Now that all depends on the definition of "Christian". If someone believes Jesus had a lot of good ideas and wants to follow his teachings, isn't that person a Christian even if he believes in evolution?

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I believe that most of the stories in the bible are tales told to teach morality, only loosely grounded in fact. I also believe in the Rare Earth Theory and Intelligently Guided Evolution, which go hand-in-hand.

--Ocram

[LexusInfernus 908]

Loved Bill Nye the Science Guy.

Faith and the Scientific Theory are not compatible.

Nonsense, there is no rule that states that you cant believe in God and science at the same time. And for the vast majority of people who believe in God and who have a moderate belief structure, science and faith are just two things that complement each other.

Well until you meet this dilemma:

Thats hardly a dilemma.... First of all, Jesus didnt die for the original sin, he died for all your sins, and no one is without sin, even if you take away the whole original sin thing. Besides, isnt the original sin thing a catholic invention that came hundreds of years after Jesus had supposedly lived. Second of all, Jesus did a whole lot more then just being born from a virgin and then dying on a cross. Jesus had a message, he fed the hungry, cured the blind, made the cripples walk, and for a lot of (moderate) believers, its the message and these kind of actions that are important. Finally, you shouldnt act like faith and religion are the same thing. One can have faith without religion, which only makes faith all the more compatible with science as you can cut away all the stories from the bible until there is only God left.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

I believe that most of the stories in the bible are tales told to teach morality, only loosely grounded in fact. I also believe in the Rare Earth Theory and Intelligently Guided Evolution, which go hand-in-hand.

--Ocram

Well, I'd not be so sure of that. True, the conditions that make life possible are quite specific. However, the universe is big. Very big. And that's where the Law of Large Numbers comes in. There are more than 100 billion stars in our average sized galaxy. There are also hundreds of billions of galaxies out there in our visible range of the universe (and way more outside that range). That means that we have an amount of stars in the range of tens or hundreds of hexillions (10²¹) of stars, with probably even more planets and moons! It seems to be highly unlikely that there is not another world that contains life. The real question is what the chance is that life is possible on a planet, and moreover, intelligent life. Even if you take a very positive scenario for Drake's Equation (which is with the current data that's available now, pure guessing), the next intelligent civilazation able to communicate with us would be thousands of light-years away.

The number of discovered exoplanets in our own galaxy is growing rapidly (777 exoplanets as on July 5, 2012, note that the first one was discovered in 1995). We are just uncovering a whole new family of worlds. Who knows how many worlds there are that are habitable for life... or maybe we find whole different kinds of life living in extreme conditions.

And we're not even done yet in our very own solar system. Mars still suprises us (they have actually found water on Mars) and there is a small chance that the Jupiter moon of Europa contains life in it's ice-covered ocean. The gravity of Jupiter warms up the core of this icy moon so the oceans may be hot enough for life to flurish.

In short, life is probably not Earth-exclusive. However, scientists have not enough data to determine (or even estimate) how much life there is in the universe.

... Second of all, Jesus did a whole lot more then just being born from a virgin and then dying on a cross. Jesus had a message, he fed the hungry, cured the blind, made the cripples walk, and for a lot of (moderate) believers, its the message and these kind of actions that are important...

I don't believe Jesus really did all of that. It seems likely that quite a lot of the stories in the Bible have been exaggerated . However, I do believe that the person Jesus existed, maybe not as a wonder-man, but as an idealist and a source of inspiration for a group of people. He may be gone, his morality and message remains. To quote the Mythbusters: "In every myth, there's a core of truth."

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

One of the nicer facets of the human mind is that it can hold on to separate, conflicting beliefs at the same time. Compartmentalization seems to be one of the features.

While the faith learned at mother's knee may falter, the more one knows of science, the more convinced one becomes of the existence of a Great Designer. There is too much order in what would otherwise be chaos. I side with Professor Einstein: "God doesn't play at dice, but He is very subtle."

[Ocram's Razr 963]

As a scholar who has read the Old Testament, original sin is in Genesis and that book is in the Torah. Therefore, it was not some random Catholic invention that came after Jesus.

The Rare Earth Theory has several degrees and the one I hold onto is that Earth is the only planet with civilization in the galaxy. I believe that bacteria, protists, and primitive plants might exist on other planets.

--Ocram

[Meg 368]

Earth is the only planet with civilization in the galaxy.

Why? Civilized life on other planets neither proves nor confirms either creationism or evolution. It just spreads the processes over multiple planets.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Earth is the only planet with civilization in the galaxy.

Why? Civilized life on other planets neither proves nor confirms either creationism or evolution. It just spreads the processes over multiple planets.

and you can have life without civilization, most of earths geologic history is absent of intelligent life and religion.

Life is probably more the norm for planets in the right conditions.Intelligence? Meh.

but its probably still a millions to 1 chance just for life in what ever form to develop.

  Edited August 28, 2012 by Easy Bakes  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Ocram, that is a sin of presumption of the first kind. Why should the Creator limit intelligent life to a small, insignificant planet of a minor star in a rather dull part of the galaxy, let alone a small galaxy in the universe as we know it??

  Edited August 28, 2012 by A Nonny Moose