BAT - Troubleshooting & General Discussion

[dafiden 11]

I have what seems to be a simple question: how do I attach a roof to a house I'm working on in BAT?  I have read several tutorials, but they really gloss over it.  I tried to create a rectangle and rotate and extrude it, but it never works quite right.  I can't get the rectangle to attach (or rather line up, since I haven't attached them yet) properly to the building face.  How do I do it?  Do I just eyeball it and hope for the best?  From the nice BAT's I've seen on the forums, it seems people must have a way to do this better than fumbling around like I am.

Thanks.

FYI, all I have is the simple front/back of a house and I want to create a simple roof.
i.e.
/ \
|_|

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Here is a quick and dirty little way to make a angeled roof. You may find better ways in the future, but this will get you started.

Lets say this is the side of the building you are making.

Make a box, the height should be how thick you want the roof, and the depth of how long the roof should be. Your width is arbitrary. Add a edit poly to the box and select vertex.

Next, select the right half of the verticeis and move them to the apex (or whatever the hell its called) of your wall. Snap helps a lot here!

Then take the left side and move them to the side of your wall. If you want you can move it a little further so you have a nice overhang.

Mirror the new roof you made and move it to the other side.

And we have a nice little shack:

Hope this helps

-Todd

[dafiden 11]

Thank you Todd!  I spent hours on it last night from other tutorials with rotations and stuff.  This is much easier and cooler.  Hopefully I'll have the ambition to actually make something for the STEX.

[dafiden 11]

Oh wait.  I can't extrude now.  I think it's because I was using splines, but I used a polygon with your method.  How did you extrude the roof/polygon?

[kellydale2003 2,276]

Splines are the way to go!

I prefer splines because it's just easier to attach other splines - and it brings down the polygon count (very important for skyscrapers). It results in less render time, but for a house an editable poly is fine

If you go here.

You will learn how to use splines. And with splines you can basically make any shape, especially curvey!


[A WIP by me ]

[dafiden 11]

Thanks for the tip on splines, but how did "you" make the roof above from your 2d poly? Basically, from second last screen to last screen.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

If you need to "extrude" the poly more, you can use the same vertex moving method to put it wherever you like (go to the top view port, select the left or right verticies and move).

Splines are nice, but for a handful of simple objects (like your roof), polygons are what I prefer to use (less work IMO). As you try out different methods, you will learn what you like and will discover what is better for what you are trying to create. Best of luck, and I'm looking forward to what you have to show off

-Todd

[kellydale2003 2,276]

Or if you learn how to make one side and don't feel like doing the otherside over gain.
You can just scroll down to tools>mirror>Mirror over any axis desired.

(an axis is the 0 line through the viewport and on the grid x=red, y=green, z=blue)

Assuming that your facing the front of your model, a mirror in these axis will result
x-axis: Flipping Left to Right and vice versa
y-axis: Backwards and Frontwards
z-axis: Flipping Left to right and rotating backwards and forwards.

Not to mix you up or anything, but if you don't get when I'm saying you can always Mirror an object that has one side that is different and see where it points when you do mirroring.

I learned this in Precal that you always "reflect" (mirror), and than translate (move).
So reflect your poly first, than move it by the same units along which ever axis you mirrored it by.

Ex:

A) **Mirror Group of objects over x-axis**


B) **Using the "move object" icon (just click)**


C) **Since I mirrored my group over the x-axis I will need to move my group to the other side by making the negative to a positive**


D) **and then you should end up with something like this, but if you want them close together like the roof, the x values (coordinates) would have to be closer to 0**



^^^And if you want all four walls to be symmetrical, you could just select the two you see above, and then clone and than group. and rotate 90 degrees by changing the z-value from 0 to 90. But of course you will need a roof that will only reflect over the x or y axis. This is why it's important to keep everything as centered as possible. You'll tend to get things more accurate this way. (unless you want to do a lot of math )

Hope this helped.


^^^The method I explained in this post works for both polys and splines

[GlobexCo 33]

Remember that sometimes it can be very difficult to extrude attached splines, or working with extruded splines/polys.

So, the easier method is to start from a solid and then using modifiers like "edit mesh" or "edit poly" to transform the solid; converting the whole thing can be very dangerous, because in the future maybe you'll have to increase/decrease segments or other values and after converting an object, you can't return back. Or make sure to clone the initial shape before modifying it, for example before a boolean subtraction.

Also, starting from a box can create bad results when you'll apply a texture (unless you know hot to apply the unwrap modifier - very difficult). So, start from a plane and edit it, then apply the texture and use other solids to create the other parts. If you think that the plan seems too flat, you have to use a bump or displacement map.

[dafiden 11]

OK. I was a little confused, but I think I have it all figured out now.

Todd: the confusion was that you said to use a box, and I used a rectangle (since a tutorial I was following used spline/rectangles and extrudes). I will try it with a box when I get home. Thanks.

Kellydale: thanks for the tips.

GlobexCo: When you say start from a solid, does solid mean box? But, then you recommended against using boxes. I'm confused among the terms solid, box, and polygon.

Anyone: So, I started my house using splines and extrudes. I have decided to use polygons (boxes, I guess) for the roof. Can I do this, or do I need to start over? In other words, can I successfully mix splines and polygons?

[GlobexCo 33]

(double post - stupid button!)

[kellydale2003 2,276]

Splines buddy!

Just weld your vertexes is no problem - There are more options with Splines. And polys you are limited to a lot of things, and when making a complicated poly you will have to do more work.

For instance: The roof your trying to make needs to be made into two parts. Both reflecting each other: and for splines it could be made into one easy spline.

Just click>drag>edit vertex>delete inner segment> weld> done!

Rathar than doing the whole hand-edit thing and making a copy and mirroring it and every step inbetween.

But whatever, I think your into polys.

[dafiden 11]

I'm not necessarily into polys. I started with splines. My problem was that I couldn't make the roof using a spline, apparently because I just don't know what I'm doing. It's very overwhelming. For example, I have no idea what weld is, or your statement:

Just click>drag>edit vertex>delete inner segment> weld> done

My problem with the spline was that I was trying to use a rectangle for the roof and extruding it on a house

/\

||

Well, the rectangle is flat, but the roof is angled. I tried a rotation, but I couldn't get it exactly to connect to the house's diagonal.

[GlobexCo 33]

Originally posted by: dafiden

OK. I was a little confused, but I think I have it all figured out now.

Todd: the confusion was that you said to use a box, and I used a rectangle (since a tutorial I was following used spline/rectangles and extrudes). I will try it with a box when I get home. Thanks.

Kellydale: thanks for the tips.

GlobexCo: When you say start from a solid, does solid mean box? But, then you recommended against using boxes. I'm confused among the terms solid, box, and polygon.

Anyone: So, I started my house using splines and extrudes. I have decided to use polygons (boxes, I guess) for the roof. Can I do this, or do I need to start over? In other words, can I successfully mix splines and polygons?

quote>

A solid can be a box, a sphere, a plane, a cylinder,...

A plane is the easiest way to create a roof using textures (if you want max realism, simply create a tile and then clone it).

A polygon is a point. Each solid or spline have polygons, vertex and triangles. Each point has a x,y and z value, lines between these points create solids.

If you go to Customize - customize viewport, you can add a polygon counter to the viewport, so you can see the number of polygons. Rember to economize on polygons. I usually work with scenes with 2 miliards polygons and my render engine often spends more than 2 hours to render everything.

If you want to rotate the geometry and you don't want to use modifiers like "edit ...", you can rotate the geometry using the XYZ tool. So click on rotate and then change parameters here:

 

Did you understand?

[dafiden 11]

GlobexCo, yes I understood, thanks. Except I haven't even started with textures yet!!!

[Jasoncw 11,840]

What SimHoTToDDy described is basically the way that I make them.

Snaps are super mega ultra important in 3d modeling and make everything a lot easier and higher quality. For gmax, in the lower right hand corner there is an icon with a magnet. If you right click it, the snaps dialogue box will open and you can choose what you'd like your cursor to snap to.

As far as polygon modeling vs extruding splines go, the last time I opened gmax it didn't really have the same tools for polygon editing as 3ds max does, and for gmax having a clean model isn't really as important, so for BATing purposes extruding splines is probably the way to go for modeling facades and things. For other more 3 dimensional things, basic polygon modeling is probably the way to go. For something like the roof, you might as well just start off with a plane or a box and polygon model it. I suppose you could draw a rectangle and extrude it to get a box, but you might as well just create a box in the first place.

I've only skimmed over it, but this tutorial seems to cover some stuff for gmax. http://www.worldoftrainz.com/Pages/Tutorials_TRS2006/GmaxLocomotiveTutTRS.htm

You can definitely search google for tutorials for 3ds max, and if you look harder you can probably find some for gmax. I'd write a basic tutorial about it myself, but my own modeling skills (which in the grand scheme of things aren't too hot) rely pretty heavily on the quickslice tool, which gmax doesn't have. Using quick slice, extrude, inset, and bridge, you can model most facades quickly and cleanly.

[dafiden 11]

Jasoncw, I love your stuff!!!  Your train station set rocks; I use them all the time.  But, your best stuff is all the commercial buildings like Wagner and the small w2w shops.  It's really good to hear from you.

Thanks for the snaps tip.  From what you've told me, it will help a ton.

Can you make SC4 buildings with 3ds max?  Is it free?

So, when you say gmax is good for "facades," do you mean facades like on your buildings, like Wagner?  So, gmax is good for making buildings like Wagner?

I have most the walls and roofs on my first house complete.  I have no idea how to make the colors, doors, windows, etc. look good.  I'll need to add textures I think.  I just can't imagine how my house will look anything like the nice stuff on the STEX.

[kellydale2003 2,276]

I guess you can say I "grew" up differently with 3ds max. I've learned with Splines, and I use splines, and have no problem with extruding. Although they mostly work 2 dimensional before extruding, they do bring down the polygon count when they are all attached.

But if ya want I could write a quick tutorial for you here

[kellydale2003 2,276]

@cmdp123789 - Yes you can make buildings with 3ds max, but before I tell you the goodies about it...I have the say the cost is really expensive....like a couple thousand dollars expensive. I have 7, 8, 9, and 2010 on my laptop: I love 3ds max because you can create realistic reflections, less (basic) render time, material editor is more advanced and is WAAAY better than the one in gmax. And most of the stuff you see on STEX is maybe through 3ds max or advanced textures in like photoshop or something.
  There's another free program that I used. I hated gmax, but loved raytracing (reflections), and didn't have enough money for 3ds max. So I found "Blender". You can make buildings for Simcity 4 from there, but I'm really unsure about the process of exporting from it. I exported it into gmax, and it was horrible. But I'm unsure if there's a "Blender4gmax" or something like that. Meshes tend to be lost or corrupted while transferring - Sometimes it's a long process to export (or so I heard).

But You can try it. Just go to www.Blender.Org and download it (it should be free + Full).

Here I believe the WTC is from Blender: CLICK

Here's some WIP by bb62blackdragon (cativo), creator of the WTC 3.: CLICK

It's really hard to BAT successfully in gmax as you are limited to a lot of things. Especially textures.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy my BATs!

Right now I would just read tutorials and try to do what works best.  It's perfectly possible to make great BATs using gmax, and I wouldn't worry about 3ds max and stuff like that right now.  I'd start a BAT thread, and then you can get more directed advice.  I also wouldn't worry about how good or bad what you BAT will be, because it's probably going to look pretty bad at first (and if that's the case, then you don't need to upload it, since no one would use it anyway and you'd just get a bunch of low ratings), but you're 100% perfectly capable of making great BATs, and like anything, it takes some practice.

Kelly:  If you're modeling anything other than a flat wall, it would probably be better to just start off with a box or plane and poly model it from there.  As far as polygon count goes, if you convert the spline to an editable polygon, you'll see what it "actually" is.  It would probably have less polygons/triangles, but that's because max is trying to optimize it (but there are things more important than poly counts).  But if you look at what it made, it's a total disaster, and you can't really do much with what it gives you.  If it's not simply a flat wall you're modeling, you could make a handful of extruded splines to get different parts of the facade to be different depths, or if you poly modeled it, you would just select those faces, and extrude those, and you'd probably get a cleaner and simpler model. 

[kellydale2003 2,276]

Meh - Splines can almost do the same, + you can always edit the same polygon later of a different size (same with polys I know), but I just think as soon as you get the concept pf splines, nothing is really a problem. Polys and Splines = Same Difference, but I still think Splines are easier in many ways Polys are what I first started out with, but I BATted differently. I started out by BATting out the floors in a skyscraper, which helped me grasp the feeling of height and facades. Now I just make a quick box and make it to size and than add a wall to it.

I guess you can say we have our opinions. So it'll be up to him to decide wether polys or splines. Cause Im too tired to argure x] 

[anubis89 107]

Hi, does anyone know how to make the BAT render 2-sided textures correctly? I have the problem that those texture are only rendered on the side of the actual face - the other is not visible.

2-sided textures really make modelling much more easier and faster and therefore it would be quite a pity if rendering them isn't possible

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I opened up gmax and looked around, but it looks like the 2-sided option may be broken in gmax.  I also couldn't get it to render. 

[Simguy228 0]

Every time I try to open BAT it says: No plugin was found:3dsMax, and the it says:Gmax failed to start

[SimFox 802]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

I opened up gmax and looked around, but it looks like the 2-sided option may be broken in gmax.  I also couldn't get it to render. 

quote>

Actually it isn't..

but it is turned of in BAT itself...

[jantolini 0]

When I try to zone my cities residentially, the highest buildings are high-rise tenements when I originally thought about fancy condo tower. What can I do to solve the problem?

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

You could try posting the question in the right part of Simtropolis, this thread is for problems with the BAT.

Try asking here https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/categories.cfm?catid=22&entercat=y

[GlobexCo 33]

Originally posted by: anubis89

Hi, does anyone know how to make the BAT render 2-sided textures correctly? I have the problem that those texture are only rendered on the side of the actual face - the other is not visible.

2-sided textures really make modelling much more easier and faster and therefore it would be quite a pity if rendering them isn't possible quote>

Correct me if I'm wrong. So you want to apply a texture on both sides of a plane? The plane has got only one normal so only one side can be rendered. If you want to render two sides of a plane you have to clone the plane and switch normals of the new plane; then apply two textures. I don't think that there's a script for Gmax that allows two sided textures.

[gottago 24]

Q:

I've been trying to export a clean model without success: my building is designed to fit snugly on a 5x2 lot and the LODs have been edited to make a tight box around the BAT. Before I exported in gmax, I deleted the lightrig from xref scenes, then ran a preview render to generate a new lightrig to fit the new LODs. Then I ran the export. The result in-game is perfect except for this bug--a grey square at the point where the lightrig puts its target point on the LODs, seen ingame here:

Anyone know how to fix this?

[Raysfan16 5]

I have two minor problems. First, after I previewed my BAT in SC4 view, when I went back to prespective mode it got all screwed up and I can't rotate certain ways without messing it p. Note it was perfectly fine before the preview.

Second, my toolbar is gone! I accidentally X'ed it out and don't know how to get it back.