SC4Tool - Reference and Visual Editor for BATs and Lots

[Andreas Roth 616]

Did you ever wondered why you need so many new powerplants in some of your cities, or why the landfills get overflowed by excessive amounts of trash? Does your cashflow seem to explode sometimes for no obvious reason? Well, I'm sure, things like this have happened to all of us, esp. when many custom lots and BATs are installed.

 

The German SimForum BAT Team (SFBT) did some researches on this issue and discovered that many BATs have values that are way too high, i. e. residential buildings that produce up to 50 (!) times more garbage than comparable Maxis ones. This is caused by the predefined values the Plugin Manager suggests when creating a new SC4Desc file for a BAT. In many cases, they are way off, and since there is no reference chart and no way to look up most of these values in the game, many BATters go on with them.

 

Over the last few days, I compiled a complete database of all Maxis RCI buildings, where you can look up values like tileset, bulldoze cost, pollution values and more. Currently, it's a Microsoft Access database, but there will be an independent frontend, so you don't need Access to browse the database.

 

This database will be a compendium for all BATters and lotmakers, where they can easily look up any in-game building, and choose some similar values for the new one they created. But it's also useful for every player, since they can check their downloads with LEProp, the Reader or DatGen and see if the values are off. Or just use it as an informative tool about the in-game buildings in general.

 

I extracted the data directly from the SimCity game files, and there will be a screenshot for every building, too. Currently, I have most of them, only some smaller residential buildings are missing. Since there are well over 500 RCI buildings in total, it will take a few days. The database frontend will be written in .NET, so everyone who has installed the .NET Framework (it's also used for DatGen), will be able to access the database. I will also provide the Access database file and an Excel file with the exported data. Maybe an online database will follow later, if it's feasible.

 

[dhoppeii 12]

What a great idea.  I am looking forward to taking a look at it....

[T Wrecks 10,210]

So finally it's there! I hope many BATters will take advantage of this database when tweaking their BATs. I have a feeling that a well-known NDEX-member might be interested in this...

[MrGScoTT 3]

This is a great idea.  I just recently begin to play the BAT and I'm looking forward to using this new tool.

[Equinox 1,212]

Your feeling would be accurate, T Wrecks.    Good guess.

This is really awesome; it really tells people how skewed the Plugin Manager's values can get and what acceptable ones are!  Is there any way I could work some of this information into a tutorial I am working on at the moment?  I think I asked T Wrecks already, but just to make sure ...

Anyone uploading anything to the Exchange needs to look at this, especially.  If you download many custom lots, pretty soon you'll be needing whole cities of water and garbage facilities, and that's not right.

[Andreas Roth 616]

Thanks for the replies! Unfortunately, I'm a bit busy with university at the moment (the new semester just started), but I think I will be able to make most of the the missing screenshots next weekend. simrolle (who created the S-Bahn set) is helping me with the database interface, the basic functions such as sorting and filtering are working now.

 

@Equinox: Just go ahead and use any information you need for your tutorial. The more this information is spread out, the better. With all the new custom BATs and lots, the game gets more and more unbalanced, so we should spread the word as widely as possible. If you have Access, I can send you a preliminary version of the database. All data is included so far, I only have to check out if I made some mistakes.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Yeah, the reference lists I'm making will take longer... final exams in RL and loads of manual work with the Reader etc.

[Gilgamesh 0]

Wow. I NEED this program, i'll learn german if I have to....

 Can you change the building tileset the building is allocated to? 

[Andreas Roth 616]

Date: 4/27/2005 8:00:57 PM Author: Gilgamesh

Wow. I NEED this program, i'll learn german if I have to....

Can you change the building tileset the building is allocated to?

quote>

Don't worry, you will be able to switch the language between German and English. As far as I know, the captions are located in an external XML file, so it will be possible to do even more translations. And from what I have seen so far, you can also modify the existing entries (for entering notes and such) or even add new buildings to the database. We'll see how this is going to be implemented, though.

 

As for the tileset, it should be possible to modify the allocation of the in-game buildings as well, but you'll have to locate the associated files in the reader and change them manually. My database is only for information purposes, if you want to change anything, you'll have to use the established tools.

[SimGoober 2,353]

Andreas, this is a fantastic idea.  I'll be sure to use it.  I'm also very happy to see you will be able to add information to it; then as I develop new stuff, and redevelop older stuff, I can have an accurate record of what I have done, and can establish over time when certain lots perform better than others.

 

[vadvaro 2]

simgoober touched on an interesting point.  since thing can be added to it, will it be possible for people to submit add-on entries in an easy to transfer format?   for example if simgoober adds all his lots, and saves their info for viewing in this program, how are they added to the database?  would it be a separate textfile/excel file or will it add to the original database?  if it were seperate, one could share that additional data between each other easier.

[Mistoffeles 0]

If you wanted to take this project to a logical extreme, you could set up a complete SC4 Object Database and Plugin Manager which would allow you to directly access the values of not only the built-in lots, props, BATs and so on, but anything anyone else added.

Possible features:

Store the default information for all Maxis objects.

Add and remove objects, taking care of putting all files in the correct places.

Hook into the BAT program or directly edit the objects (both very ambitious) to tweak values.

Create a new default object with certain attributes, which you could then edit in the BAT and other tools.

There is no limit to where this could be taken, and really something like it should have been in SC4 right from the beginning. I hope they make one for SC5.

[Andreas Roth 616]

Sharing custom information would be a nice feature indeed. I will ask simrolle how he's implementing user-added content. As for now, the data source is the Access file I mentioned before, but alternative saving methods, such as XML or others should also be possible.

[Gilgamesh 0]

Some of you may have remembered a certain someone called Giglamesh who proposed the idea of getting all buildings properly allocated into certain tilesets. Well, that was me.... (i lost my password/couldn't remember which email account i registed under/something like that)... and this is EXACTLY what i've been waiting for. I'm sick of playing SC4 RH and simply not getting a periodic feel as you did in the older SC games.. I wanted to start at a time, (say 1900 like the older SC's) and watch the city develop over time... so naturally, here's the big question i'm hoping to get answered...

With this database, will i be able to CHANGE the tileset of a particular building, ie from Houston to Chicago?

[Andreas Roth 616]

Date: 4/28/2005 2:51:01 AM Author: Gilgamesh

With this database, will i be able to CHANGE the tileset of a particular building, ie from Houston to Chicago?

As I said before, you can't change the game files with this database - it's only for information purposes. Any modifications of the actual game files will have to be done with DatGen or the Reader. A database stores and displays data - not more and not less. You can search, filter, modify and add new data, but you cannot change the game with it.

 

EDIT: Ok, I uploaded a preliminary version of the database. As I said before, it's in Microsoft Access 2000 format, so make sure you have a program that can read these files. I didn't include the screenshots, since they are not complete yet and would blow up the package to about 8 MB. The database should work fine without them. [outdated link removed]

[Equinox 1,212]

The ability to add custom lots is freaking awesome.

Here's a quick suggestion ...

Have the program create a subdirectory called External Data.  From within that, have the program auto-detect any XML files it finds, with any filename, and then add them to the end of the database list, possibily filtered by the title of the individual XML file.  The advantage to this would be that I could upload a file to the STEX titled NDEX.xml that people could drop in that folder, and the program would auto-detect it and add everything in that file to the list.  Then, in addition, SimGoober could upload a file of his with statistics, and there would be two XML files present, but they both would be added to the database nonetheless.  Just an idea.

[Andreas Roth 616]

Hmm, ST is behaving strange at the moment... you wrote the last posting, but my name showed up on the front page, so I didn't looked into this thread again.

 

Anyways, that's a nice idea, and it would make it a lot more customizable for everyone, the BATters who only need to keep their own file updated, and the average user, who can create his own files and use the ones made by others, too. I'm not sure if this would work, but simrolle is the one who can enlighten us.

[Andreas Roth 616]

Ok, folks, I received a first beta of the database interface - there are still some bugs and not everything is implemented yet, but it looks great so far:

 

http://img219.echo.cx/img219/8071/simcitybuildingdatabase20uh.gif align=baseline>

[vadvaro 2]

Equinox said exactly what i meant to say.  is what he proposed possible with access?

[Andreas Roth 616]

Date: 5/3/2005 11:07:24 PM Author: vadvaro Equinox said exactly what i meant to say.  is what he proposed possible with access?

quote>

I don't know yet, but I will ask simrolle. Currently, there is an export function that creates XML files, so I think the other way round (importing custom XMLs) should be possible, too.

[garfiedude 2]

He, having got someone with access2000 to convert it to 97 format, i can finaly use this

I guess the next step would be to come up with some sort of formulas as a guideline for people wanting to make lots that are realistic by ingame standards. Say, medium demsity medium wealth residential with 212 residents, multiply by (formula) for appropiate value setting etc.

[Andreas Roth 616]

Date: 5/5/2005 7:01:00 AM Author: garfiedude He, having got someone with access2000 to convert it to 97 format, i can finaly use this I guess the next step would be to come up with some sort of formulas as a guideline for people wanting to make lots that are realistic by ingame standards. Say, medium demsity medium wealth residential with 212 residents, multiply by (formula) for appropiate value setting etc.

quote>

I just got an new beta of the standalone version; I will do some testing and post it here soon. As for the guidelines, T Wrecks is currently compiling a reference list for different building types and sizes.

[garfiedude 2]

Would it be possible for you to post an access97 version too (is it a simple 'save as' job)?

[Andreas Roth 616]

Yes, I could, but I don't want to post too many different versions. I will PM you with a link, unless there are other people who want an Access 97 version, too. The standalone program should work with every PC where the .NET framework is installed.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

@ garfiedude: Just a little word concerning these guidelines I'm compiling...

I'm working on an Excel table where all the buildings I modded to reasonable stats (in compliance with default buildings) will be listed by the # of jobs / residents.

Now let's pick up your example: Mid-wealth res with 212 residents... in my lists, you could scan for buildings with similar # of residents. Let's say you find one with 198 and another one with 315. Now you could compare the values of these two buildings and tweak your building to values that are between these two, but closer to the smaller one (because 212 is closer to 198 than to 315).

Remember you don't have to turn this into rocket science; 5 gallons of water consumption more or less won't hurt you much. But you will see the original stats of the BATs I modded, and this will give you an idea of the disproportion that most BATs are suffering from. For a 1,000 jobs CO$$, we are not talking about 5 tons of garbage or 7. We're talking about 5 tons of garbage and 70! That's the scale where things really start to hurt.

If you're interested in a preliminary version of the list (just to get an idea of what it looks like and how far off many buildings are), feel free to PM me your mail address. I can save it as an Excel 97 version for you if necessary.

[Marc Collins 36]

This is EXACTLY what we need!!!!!!!!!!!!  Thanks.  I'm happy to beta test anything...

Marc

[Pheonix Rising 2]

I didnt read the entire post, but if you want this done for an online database find a site that will give you php/mysql and ill do it wont take much either to get it up. Ive worked on several gaming sites in the past

[Guinnessmonkey 0]

Great stuff! Now I won't have to open up simcity_1.dat just to check out a couple of standard building stats while I'm tweaking.

I reckon' we should eventually cobble together a rule of thumb guideline... i.e.: two story one family residential homes average stats:

[Marc Collins 36]

I agree 100% that a standards checklist should be available for BATters to go through to ensure their creation is appropriate for the game as well as beautiful.

[Guinnessmonkey 0]

Man. After lookin' through the residentials I have in my plugins right now I realize just how much a standardized list really is needed.

I have some medium wealth buildings worth $800 or $900, whereas there are some high wealth buildings worth just $200.

Nor is there any correlation between how nice a house is and its listed value. Some dumpy lookin' houses are valued at 5x the value of particularly nice ones within the same wealth category.


Now it's kinda obvious to me why some spring up like weeds and others are quite rare (yhea, I know... Old news to those who have been modding simcity for a while )