Show us your area's highways

[montrouge 2]

But in France Germany Italy Spain Swiss Austria U.K Portugual... highways are better and nicer than american highways

Standar french Tollway  (in Paris area highway are  free and really bad)

[M-SIL 2]

cool. i had lived in the woodlands until i was 11, and i have cousins in Spring, grandma in missouri city, and an aunt and uncle over off clay road in the NW part of town just inside the beltway.quote>

Cool, I live in missouri city too. Man, what a small world.

[hamsterTK 93]

cool. i had lived in the woodlands until i was 11, and i have cousins in Spring, grandma in missouri city, and an aunt and uncle over off clay road in the NW part of town just inside the beltway.quote>

Cool, I live in missouri city too. Man, what a small world.quote>

Weird

*Twilight zone music plays*

you dont happen to live in the subdivision Fondren Park(my grandmas neighborhood), do you? that would be too freaky.

But in France Germany Italy Spain Swiss Austria U.K Portugual... highways are better and nicer than american highwaysquote>

I dont think that is necessarily a fair statement. just because you have prettier signs and your roads are paved in nice looking shiny black asphault doesnt necessarily make them better. We'd really have to compare ramp lengths, how many sharp turns there are, etc. Even then highways vary. Like you said, the paris highways suck but this particular road(a tollway as well) is nicer. Same goes for every country . For Example, in Texas Interstate 35 between the towns of Temple and Waco looks very much like it did in the early 60's. Very narrow, bumpy, with  low steep overpasses cutting through the middle of small towns. Just up the road 35 is very wide and bypasses little towns with wider curves and smoother road. To the north of that in Dallas another road that connects to it, the central expressway, is one of the most beautiful urban freeways in the country and the world.

[cityhawk 12]

This is I-10 approaching downtown Mobile (Alabama, USA, and yes, it's not much of a skyline, but at least we have one):

This is I-10 before the curve into the George Wallace Tunnel:

I-10 west entrance to the George Wallace Tunnel:

I couldn't find any good shots of the east end of the George Wallace Tunnel or the I-10 Battleship Parkway, which starts just out the east end of the tunnel, so this'll have to do.

[hamsterTK 93]

Used to live in Georgia. with relatives in texas my family would drive that I-10 route several times in a year. Got to know a bit about the towns along that route. Mobile was one of my favorite parts of the drive because of the big bridge and tunnel, more interesting that dumpy towns in pine tree swamps for the other 700 miles of the trip.

always liked that tunnel. the tubular tile covered walls are really cool compared to the concrete square boxes with dim orange lights like most tunnels you go it. and the skyline doesnt look half bad looking from the east side of the bay on a clear day. Congrats to mobile for landing that RSA tower thing, its a awesome building.

This is I-10 before the curve into the George Wallace Tunnel:

quote>

check out that sign everyone. is that a permanent speed trap? ive never seen one before or noticed it when ive been through mobile

[montrouge 2]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK

cool. i had lived in the woodlands until i was 11, and i have cousins in Spring, grandma in missouri city, and an aunt and uncle over off clay road in the NW part of town just inside the beltway.quote>

Cool, I live in missouri city too. Man, what a small world.quote>

Weird

*Twilight zone music plays*

you dont happen to live in the subdivision Fondren Park(my grandmas neighborhood), do you? that would be too freaky.

But in France Germany Italy Spain Swiss Austria U.K Portugual... highways are better and nicer than american highwaysquote>

I dont think that is necessarily a fair statement. just because you have prettier signs and your roads are paved in nice looking shiny black asphault doesnt necessarily make them better. We'd really have to compare ramp lengths, how many sharp turns there are, etc. Even then highways vary. Like you said, the paris highways suck but this particular road(a tollway as well) is nicer. Same goes for every country . For Example, in Texas Interstate 35 between the towns of Temple and Waco looks very much like it did in the early 60's. Very narrow, bumpy, with  low steep overpasses cutting through the middle of small towns. Just up the road 35 is very wide and bypasses little towns with wider curves and smoother road. To the north of that in Dallas another road that connects to it, the central expressway, is one of the most beautiful urban freeways in the country and the world.quote>

 

In France the majority of motorways are toll.

France  motorway system more than 12,000 km and 10,000 km are Toll.

[smirkazor 1]

It would be absolutely amazing if we can recreate most of the highway interchanges etc into simcity 4, i'm a big fan of highways, they looks so great and intricate, it would really make my day to be able to use stuff like that in my regions.

[spa 970]

Toll roads aren't the way to go. Here in Canada Nova Scotia was stunned enough to make the new highway that connects the province to the rest of the country a toll road. As if the province doesn't have enough economic troubles. As for the claim that Europe's highways are better... well ugly concrete is still ugly concrete.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: montrouge

European highways are more beautiful and  better in quality than American highways.quote>

Mpre beautiful? what exactly do you mean by that? Do you speak of the highways themselves or the views from them?

The thing is, the most breathtaking views are never accessable by highway because you really can't run a highway up to them. A great many of them aren't even accessable by car, and must be hiked to.

The thing to keep in mind is that here in America, function is usually more important than aesthetics in highway design. We don't design them to be pretty, we design them to carry the most cars annd trucks for the least price (both financially and environmentally).

As for quality, the big distinction here is that Europe's highways are mostly quite new (Germany's Autobahns notwithstanding). In America, road construction is not what it once was. Most of our highways are at least 20 years old. A majority of them are more than 40 years old. The reason for this is that it has become a lot harder to successfully build a highway than it once was. There's a lot more red tape involved.

Firstly, ever since the 70's, it's been required that all capital construction project proposals prepare and submit an Environmental Impact Statement. In here, the need for the construction is weighed against the damage that would be done to the environment. The proposer is also required to propose alternatives, one of which is a "No Build" alternative. Basically this means that all other alternatives afre rejected for some reson or another and the company is forced to abandon their proposal entirely and not build anything. Unfortunately, this ends up hapenning with a fair majority of all capital projects involving transportation. Yet construction of buildings is almost never blocked. This means we're continually building more places for people to live and work and not building new ways for them to get there. It's no wonder that any city is a traffic nightmare at rush hour.

The other big blocking factor is 'local opposition'. Even those whose properties are not being taken still have a say here if they're nearby.

In fact, most projects are blocked not due to lack of aproval of the EIS, but because too many locals start screaming "NIMBY! NIMBY!" And they always get listened to because they cannot be ignored. If a company decides to ignore their complaints, they can take the company to court over it -and, hey this is America, so they inevitabley will, and ineviatably will win the case. Not even the government can build something without the approval of the local residents. And of course, instunctual fear of change, way too many people never want anything new built, no matter how little they personally are affected by it.

Look at the few newer highways around in America and you will find they are of quite high quality. It's just that the majority of them are old, built to less strict older standards, and sometimes neglected in terms of maintenance.

[montrouge 2]

This motorway are  30 years old.

[hamsterTK 93]

id rather not have this turn out to be a debate over which countries highways are better, which is silly because a highway is a highway and as long as they get you where you need to go easily than it doesnt matter.

[raul39 0]

The only freeway were I live is just a 4 lane rural freeway so instead I'll show LA's freeways. LA is my closest city. As you can see, our freeways aren't very nice. I don't like them, but oh well. For nicer freeways, go to Orange and San Diego county.  now how come I can't show the pictures all nice like the one's up above?

[officer 6]

Pretty cool - I never realised that highways could be interesting (getting some inspiration for some of my city's freeways, lol). Just one thing i'm curious about though, what's the difference between a highway, freeway and an interstate? - in terms of lanes, whereabouts etc (I live in Britain you see - I hate it here, lol)

[obliq 0]

Originally posted by: sloppet

Well.. we have something that is an imitation of a highway..

It's the best pic I could find... But ask anyone if there is a highway in Poland, he will answe your question with "NO" quote>

 

That's...umm...

Reminds of Oklahoma in the United States only the lines on your highway actually have a fresh coat of paint.

That's the one thing I notice about highways in most of the pictures from Europe: the lines always look freshly painted. That would be a luxury in most of the United States (if you can even see what's left of the lines at all).

[Haljackey 17,394]

Originally posted by: officer Pretty cool - I never realised that highways could be interesting (getting some inspiration for some of my city's freeways, lol). Just one thing i'm curious about though, what's the difference between a highway, freeway and an interstate? - in terms of lanes, whereabouts etc (I live in Britain you see - I hate it here, lol)quote>

 

Uh.. i think a highway is just a long distance road.  Highways don't need interchanges or dividers and can be only 1 lane each way.  A freeway has no stoplights, they have interchanges so you have the "freedom" to cruise on the road.  I think freeways can also be only one lane each way, but most are at least two with a median of either steel crash rails, concrete medians, or a large grassy section in the middle.  Interstates are freeways that are owned by the US goverment i think and have to biult by meet a standard.  I live in Canada, you see, and here, freeways are provincially owned.  Ex. Ontario operates the 400-series highways, which has its own standards (no weaving, parclos), Quebec operates the Autoroutes that have different standards... and so on.

Hope this answers your question a bit.

[officer 6]

 - thanks, that's helped me understand alot more.

[szarkoz 8]

I think it's the same highway which sloppet has posted a pic. Unfortunately it's the only highway in Poland and in addition it's only 60 kilometers. But I wouldn't say it's the only high-speed road here, there are much of those, but I would rather call them dual carriage ways than highways.

[hamsterTK 93]

yeah, typical use of the word has highway<freeway/motorway, but sometimes a cross country freeway out in the country might be called a highway since freeway tends to refer to big urban expressways

as haljacky, interstates are just regular intercity freeways but maintained by the federal(national) government, instead of the state governments which maintain most other roads. Interstates are built to special standards to make sure that traffic can go fast provided there isnt any congestion. The interstates got started in late 50's or early 60's i think, and the system wasnt really complete till at least the late 70's, prior to that many interstates were in place but there were sections that werent up to interstate quality but signed as interstates anyways. Today the system is pretty much complete. There have been some new extensions and a few short go-nowhere interstates such as 99(which doesnt even follow the numbering system right), but these are just pork by some influential congressmen. Really, the only new needed major interstate that will go cross country is 69, which will go from canada to mexico and is finished up in the midwest but the sections in the mid-south and in texas arent finished yet. Even then, its not really a brand new road, they are just upgrading some other highways. I know in texas it will be mostly US highway 59 that will be ugraded, and the section of 59 that goes thru houston has been at interstate standards for decades anyways.

Here is a map of the Interstate system(They are blue, regular US highways(which may or may not be freeways) are red):

just FYI, on the map it shows interstates in alaska, hawaii, and puerto rico. The Interstates in Hawaii are all on the island of Oahu and numbered as H1-H3. the interstates in alaska arent signed in interstates nor are they freeways or close to interstate standard. There are some freeways in anchorage and fairbanks but thats about it. In Puerto Rico they are called Autopistas and not Interstates and arent signed as interstates but are still freeways.

[montrouge 2]

In France Motorway is called  "Autoroute"

Extract of wikipedia article

France has the highest set speed limits for limited access highways in either Western Europe or North America

• Under normal conditions - 130 km/h (80 mph)
• In rain or wet road conditions - 110 km/h (70 mph)
• In heavy fog or snowy/icy conditions - 50 km/h (30 mph)

Note that Germany does not impose a speed limit on freeways, in general. In normal conditions, there is a minimum speed of 80 km/h (50 mph) in the right lane.

The autoroutes are designed to increase the safety of drivers; this allows a higher speed limit (130 km/h or 80 mph) than on the normal roads (90 km/h or 55 mph) with an acceptable risk of accident.

The safety measures are:

• one way driving: the lanes driving in the opposite direction are separated by at least a crash barrier which is designed to resists to the oblique impact of a car up to 180 km/h (110 mph); no intersecting roads but bridges and tunnels;
• larger lanes, at least 2 (often 3) lanes driving in the same direction, with a larger turning radius;
• long acceleration and slowing lanes to get in or out of the autoroute without disturbing the traffic;
• presence of an additional emergency lane where it is forbidden to drive (except for the emergency services) and to park (except in case of emergency);
• presence of emergency call boxes every 2 km (1.2 miles) on each side, that allow to call for help with the possibility to locate the call; some call boxes have flashing light that warn when there is a problem ahead;
• presence every 10 km (6 miles) (4-6 minutes of driving) of resting zones (aire de repos, i.e. car parks with public toilets), and every 40 km (25 miles) (20-30 minutes of driving) of a resting zone with a restaurant;
• regular patrols of the security services, to clear any obstacle and protect drivers in trouble (usually a breakdown or a flat tyre) with appropriate warning signs and beacons;
• dynamic information panels which warn about possible difficulties ahead (accident, men at work, traffic jam);
• an FM radio station (107.7 MHz) dedicated to information about traffic conditions on the most of the network;
• on heavy traffic days (e.g. beginning and end of school holidays): organisation of specific information and recreation events at rest areas;
• many radars automatiques (permanent automatic radars) being actually installed on lot of places

wikipedia article

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoroute

[Haljackey 17,394]

French highways are awsome; but the problem is that most of them are toll routes, charging drivers a heafty sum to travel on them. Also, the toll booths slow down traffic because they have to stop and get a ticket, which disturbs all traffic on the freeway.

[Haljackey 17,394]

I guess I should show my area's highways now.  I Live in southwestern Ontario, Canada, and the closest highways to me are highway 402 and 401.  Like the Autoroutes in France, a lot of safety measures are put into them.  They include larger lanes, very long acelleration/decelleration lanes for getting on and off the expressway,  a paved emergency lane on EACH side of the road (both left and right), rumble strips, and a concrete median.  Also, to prevent weaving, all interchanges must be biult as parclos (partial colverleaves) which were invented by the province and are now used all over the world as a means to prevent weaving.  Although the speed limit is only 100 KM/H, this is so that less accidents are caused.  There is no advertising allowed on the freeways to keep drivers focused on the road.  The 400-series of Ontario were designed to have speeds of 130-150KM/H, but the Province keeps it at 100.  There are no toll booths on the 400-series highways.  (hwy 407 is a toll road, but there are no toll booths because sensors scan your highway pass or cameras take a picrure of your car's licence plate).

Anyway, heres a few pictures of the highways in my area 








What is pretty cool about these freeways is that they consist of both concrete, asphalt, and some red pavment material that i do not know what it is made of.  Anyway, that is my area's highways, hope you enjoyed!

[M-SIL 2]

Weird

*Twilight zone music plays*

you dont happen to live in the subdivision Fondren Park(my grandmas neighborhood), do you? that would be too freaky.quote>

Nope but dont live far from there. Anyway

@ montrouge America is a huge country, some highways are beautiful (like I-35 in central texas north of austin) and some are just horrible. That is all I'll say for now.

[hamsterTK 93]

thats neat about having 80 mph speed limit in france. Here in the US its either 70 or 75 mph, and since most people go about 10 miles over the limit when conditions are good and when there isnt a state trooper hanging around if the same holds true in france you could be going close to a 100 miles an hour and still be driving safe.

[montrouge 2]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK thats neat about having 80 mph speed limit in france. Here in the US its either 70 or 75 mph, and since most people go about 10 miles over the limit when conditions are good and when there isnt a state trooper hanging around if the same holds true in france you could be going close to a 100 miles an hour and still be driving safe.quote>

 

Now they are many automatic radar (Only touriste drive at 100 Mph  

and

Motorway police are  Subaru Impreza .

[cityhawk 12]

Originally posted by: montrouge

Originally posted by: hamsterTK thats neat about having 80 mph speed limit in france. Here in the US its either 70 or 75 mph, and since most people go about 10 miles over the limit when conditions are good and when there isnt a state trooper hanging around if the same holds true in france you could be going close to a 100 miles an hour and still be driving safe.quote>

 

Now they are many automatic radar (Only touriste drive at 100 Mph  

and

Motorway police are  Subaru Impreza .quote>

Well dang, that's gotta suck for the tourists.Nice highways, though!

---

Originally posted by: hamsterTK  Congrats to mobile for landing that RSA tower thing, its a awesome building.quote>

Yeah, it'll definitely add to Mobile's skyline, as well as the economy. Glad that you like the ride through Mobile. It's even better when you get down to the streets.

[the olive 0]

These are a few pictures of highway 401 in Toronto Canada, the biggest and most traveled on highway in the world, 22 lanes accross! 

[KyNYC 16]

re: the olive...absolutely beautiful!

[Duke87 1,070]

I'm bored, so here's my "Analysis of national highway systems", listed in order from best to worst.

(note, by "highway", I mean "limited access highway" (generally assumed where I'm from), so the US routes are not included here):

Japan: Kosokudoro

    Compared to the size of the country, there are a lot of these. Many of them go quite into the inner city, often employing double-decking and usage of existing rights-of-way or even new land in order to get them places without destroying too much to make way for them. Not ony that, but they are generally well-maintained and well designed, giving Japan the world's best national highway system. They took the bar the US set with its Interstates and raised it quite a bit.

Malaysia: Lebuhraya

    Like with the Japanese, the Malaysians have built quite an extensive highway network. Though, the extensiveness isn't quite as great, and the engineering isn't quite as ingenious, so they fall second.

The US: Interstates

    While not the first such system, it is today by far the largest (Interstate 80 is the world's longest continuous divided highway). Also, unlike many countries' systems, there is a specific pattern to the numbering (though it is occasioanlly violated). In addition, almost all major American Cities have an Interstae highway going directly into or through the downtown area. In most other parts of the world, this is not doen because the inner cities are generally older and more protected by historicness. In addtion, some countries have not had a reliable "Eminent Domain" type procedure, or have just been too opposed to knocking down buildings in order to build highways. The existance of highways directly from downtowns has been key in a mostly American innovation: the suburb. Also, another thing which makes American Highways (not just interstates) unique is milepost numbering. Every state except Connecticut, Rhode Island, Masachussets, Vermont, New Hampshire, New York, and Delaware (43 out of 50 states) partake in it. Those that don't (generally smaller states, you'll notice) use the system which is used pretty much everywhere else in the world: sequential numbering. One of the most common criticisms of the interstate system is the huge function over aesthetics style almost always used in their construction. And since one just continually stays at high speeds, it has been said that using the Interstates you can drive from one place to another without seeing anything in between (to which there is some truth. Generally, local roads provide more "scenic" routes in terms of passing through towns and the like). Still, though such things would be more likely done by truckers than regular drivers, it is possible to drive from New York to Los Angeles (over 3,000 miles) in a little over 48 hours not including the inevitable necessary stops along the way.

Germany: Autobahnen

    The oldest of the national highway systems. In general, they are built to higher standards than those of the interstates to support higher speeds. However, unlike most elsewhere, traffic laws are strictly enforced here, with plain-clothed police in plain cars all over the place. This is a nasty surprise for drivers used to American highways, where "Speed Limit: 65" means "go as fast as you feel comfortable driving, unless there's a speed trap, in which case slow down to under 65 and speed back up as soon as you're clear of it". Austria and Switzerland also have similar systems, also called "Autobahnen". Though not actually one network, they are often lumped together since they are mostly the same. Germany has a pattern for numbering its autobahnen, but it is nothing like America's, and to the casual observer of a map there might seem to be no pattern (whereas looking at an American maps the pattern is obvious).

France: Autoroutes

    The system here is fairly extensive, and the speed limits are set quite high. Nevertheless, many of those in the Paris area are plagued by congestion due to poor design, and none go anywhere near the paris City Center. Though there are a couple of major roads which will help you in that case.

China: 7918 Network

    The second largest network after the Interstates. While they are generally well-designed and well-signed (In English as well as Chinese!), there are a couple notable shortcomings. The routes are not at all numbered. They are merely named by the names of the individual highways. Also, almost all of them are Toll Highways.

Italy: Autostrade

    Almost all of these are just four lanes. Due to the mountainous terrain of Italy, there are a few rather windy portions, and a fair few tunnels. Almost all rural interchanges are built as trumpet interchanges with an intersection at the other end, rather than as diamond interchanges or parcos as is usually common elsewhere since they are cheaper and take up less space. The reasoning likely lies in that such interchanges are higher capacity. The coverage is decent, though there aren't any on the mosty rural Island of Sardignia (there are a few on Sicily).

The Netherlands: (Not sure what they call them there)

    Not really much to say on these. Fairly extensive given the country's small size, and the design seems to range from good to very good, with not much "excellent" (The dutch are too busy creating land out of the sea to make "excellent" highways, I guess.)

Belgium: (Not sure what they call them there)

    Again, not much to be said. Small country, but enough highways to cover it. Quality about the same as the Dutch. This one and the above one are kinda hard to put one better than the other with.

The UK: Motorways

    A sizable network of highways that is quite deficient in a few key areas. First, a few older ones are quite poorly designed and haven't been improved. Second, there isn't a large ammount of milage to the system. Most of it is within England with Wales and Scotland getting skimped out. Third, none of them go anywhere near any major city centers. From downtown London, one has several miles along various city streets to navigate before they can find the nearest motorway entrance. There isn't even a straight avenue or boulevard to be had, part of Paris' saving grace.

Austria: Autobahnen

    Mostly the same as the German system, just a lot less less extensive

Switzerland: Autobahnen

    And this system is less extensive than the Austrian one.

Sweeden: Motorväg

    The system itself isn't all that terrible, what gets it so low on the list is its lack of coverage. It's almost entirely in the southern third of the country.

Ireland: Motorways

    Even worse than with sweeden. There are aren't very many highways in Ireland. Most are in the Dublin area. Nevertheless, they are all new, and thus at least are well designed, even if there are nowhere near enough of them.

Portugal: Auto-Estradas

    One thing this system can claim is the world's first electronic toll collection. It doesn't have much else going for it, though.

Spain: Autopisas

    In general, the system is skeletal at best, and the design standards it is built to are often not up to snuff with those of other countries.

South Africa: National Road System

    Currently, the system is well-designed but not very extensive at all. Though, that has a lot to do with the fact that it isn't anywhere near "finished". This one may creep up the list a bit in the next 20 or 30 years.

Mexico: Federal Highways

    Kind of like Mexico's answer to the old US route system, though there are several miles of these which are, in fact, divided, limited access highways. That portion is stil the minority, however.

Brazil: Rodovias

    While there are quite a few miles on this system, most of them are not divided or limited access highways, and thus do not fit the common standard. Some of them aren't even paved (such as those deep in the Amazon).

India: National Highway Network

    While all roads included in this network are paved, many of them are quite poorly so, with crumbling pavement ful of potholes that might function better if the pavement was simply removed and thre roads made to dirt roads. Not very much of the system is divided highways, either.

Any country not listed here means that it either does not have a national highway system or its system is too small to be worth ranking.

[montrouge 2]

Originally posted by: Duke87

France: Autoroutes

    The system here is fairly extensive, and the speed limits are set quite high. Nevertheless, many of those in the Paris area are plagued by congestion due to poor design, and none go anywhere near the paris City Center. Though there are a couple of major roads which will help you in that case.

quote>

 

It's not  real city center in Paris

All Paris is the city center  

Paris like manhattan

Paris (87 Km2   25 000 inh per Km2)

Manhattan (60 km2  35 000 inhper Km2)

and the peripherique is the 1st beltway of Paris .

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=bp

A 86  is the 2nd beltway of Paris ( not finished 

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a86

N104 N184 or A 104 La Francillien the 3rd beltway of Paris (not finished)

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=n104

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a104

Other highway s  in Paris area

A 15

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a15#006

A14

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a14

A13

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a13#005

A10

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a10

N 118

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=n118

A6

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a6#002

A1

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a1#004

A4

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a4#003

A.3

http://franceautoroutes.free.fr/photosautoroute.php?route=a3#002

There is not all highways Paris area.

[chix4free 0]

As far as I'm concerned, I think the debate over which country has the best freeways/motorways/expressways/tollways/turnpikes or whatever you call them is useless.

As a French citizen, I admit French autoroutes are, for the most part of them, amazing and it's pure pleasure driving them. It is true though that freeways in the Paris metro are poorly maintained and designed although the emphasis has been put on that for more than a decade. In any event, for those complaining that there are no freeways crossing downtown historical Paris, all that I can say is "Would you like a double decker or sunken freeway to be built right next Notre-Dame or to cross the Champs-Elys