Flora parameters/preferences for MMPs

[justforfun 7,699]

I was wondering if I can find some sort of tutorial on how the "FloraParameters" and "FloraPreferences" exemplar properties work.  I would like to make MMPs with a specific plopping sequence, namely: first prop in all orientations, second prop in all orientations, and likewise through to the last one. Also, if possible, to set parameters in such a way that the props get plopped right at the centre of a tile (this is not essential, just desirable).

Still related to this project: do MMPs using "ResourceKeyType0" behave differently from the usual "ResourceKeyType1"? It seems to me they do, because I recently plopped MMPs of S3D models and the props wouldn't rotate along with the map, which looked most odd. 

Thanks in advance for any hints. 

 

[rsc204 21,804]

12 hours ago, justforfun said:

I was wondering if I can find some sort of tutorial on how the "FloraParameters" and "FloraPreferences" exemplar properties work.

I warn you than this is a deep deep rabbit hole to go down, the later so far as I know is only useful for Tree Controllers, it controls which elevations a given model appears in, this is not needed for MMPs.

As for kSC4FloraParametersProperty, if memory serves this defines placement properties, things like reserved space of the tree. As a rule it's not worth playing with, I use a template from BadSim, it's the best modding for MMPs I know of, so I make all mine using his settings for this property.

12 hours ago, justforfun said:

I would like to make MMPs with a specific plopping sequence, namely: first prop in all orientations, second prop in all orientations, and likewise through to the last one.

If by this you mean you want to have multiple items that each subsequent click scrolls through, that's the default operation. But if you mean you want to control which orientation for each is selected, i.e. like this:

• Model 1 - N
• Model 1 - W
• Model 1 - S
• Model 1 - E
• Model 2 - N
• Model 2 - W and so on...

Sadly you can't control orientation at all, all Flora items are placed in a random rotation when plopped, that's probably locked into the game's code. The order of plopping items is totally controllable in a multi-stage MMP, defined by the order of the 'chain' you create. You can have an item appear more than once, for example to give you more chance of the rotation you want appearing.

12 hours ago, justforfun said:

Also, if possible, to set parameters in such a way that the props get plopped right at the centre of a tile (this is not essential, just desirable).

No, they plop where the cursor is and if things need to line up very tightly, MMPs are not ideal for such situations.

12 hours ago, justforfun said:

Still related to this project: do MMPs using "ResourceKeyType0" behave differently from the usual "ResourceKeyType1"? It seems to me they do, because I recently plopped MMPs of S3D models and the props wouldn't rotate along with the map, which looked most odd. 

I only ever made one such MMP, I never noticed a lack of rotation, but you might need to add the property kPropertyID_RotationsAllowed and set it to True.

[justforfun 7,699]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

If by this you mean you want to have multiple items that each subsequent click scrolls through, that's the default operation. But if you mean you want to control which orientation for each is selected, i.e. like this:

• Model 1 - N
• Model 1 - W
• Model 1 - S
• Model 1 - E
• Model 2 - N
• Model 2 - W and so on...

Sadly you can't control orientation at all, all Flora items are placed in a random rotation when plopped,

Yes that's exactly what I meant.

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

you might need to add the property kPropertyID_RotationsAllowed and set it to True.

Aha, that's what was missing. 

So, in order to get the orientation I want by repeated clicking, can I set the plopping chain so that it works as a loop? Say, from item 1 to 10 and back to 1? Or are MMPs meant to go through one cycle only?

UPDATE: I added the RotationsAllowed property and yet the props still don't rotate along with the map. 

[rsc204 21,804]

Just guessing then but it’s probably a game limitation on the RKT 0 props?

If you try to cycle an MMP back to the initial item in the chain, it’ll cause a CTD, so we are limited to one cycle. But if you add a blank prop at the end, users can effectively have another go, although not in the exact same spot, without bulldozing. 

[justforfun 7,699]

2 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Just guessing then but it’s probably a game limitation on the RKT 0 props?

Looks like it, although it's odd because lotted RKT 0 props rotate normally. 

2 hours ago, rsc204 said:

If you try to cycle an MMP back to the initial item in the chain, it’ll cause a CTD, so we are limited to one cycle. But if you add a blank prop at the end, users can effectively have another go, although not in the exact same spot, without bulldozing.

Yeah, the trouble is that the props I had in mind needed exact placement. Given all these limitations I'll have to give up, but thank you for letting me know it was the wrong way to go. 

[rsc204 21,804]

My first thought is you are MMPing the houses?, that’s just a really bad method for such imo. I’d put them into a prop family on a suitable sized lot and just plop them that way personally. Otherwise if you elaborate I can try to advise on the best method to use. 

[justforfun 7,699]

45 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

My first thought is you are MMPing the houses?, that’s just a really bad method for such imo. I’d put them into a prop family on a suitable sized lot and just plop them that way personally. Otherwise if you elaborate I can try to advise on the best method to use. 

I was actually trying something quite unheard of.  Since I can't stand the look of Maxis el-rail, and every other method of covering up or reskinning it comes with several downsides, I was trying out an MMP series of embankment walls to be plopped not next to, but on the el-rail itself. And I have to say that if only those S3D props rotated normally, this wacky idea would actually prove feasible, although the pieces would be a bit tricky to place. 

Failing this, I'm still undecided whether to go for overhanging props or a reskin, but as I say both have disadvantages. I have already tried TE enbankments and they obviously degrade traffic functionality, plus cause el-rail automata to stop at every TE lot.

[rsc204 21,804]

Sounds like you want to use T21s, ‘attach’ the props to the network, so they always appear automatically. I should also note that MMPs can not be placed onto tiles/squares wherever actual networks are present, the entire tile is a reserved area, even if the texture/model doesn't fully cover it.

I get that the Maxis default el-rail is terrible, but Moonlight’s Jap ElRail looks great IMO. That said if you really are stuck with NAM 30, that’s probably not an option. I don’t think it appeared until NAM 31.

Is it the style of the El-Rail itself you dislike? By it’s nature it’s elevated and so it has to have some support/pillars. But El-Rail support is pretty minimal, you could ‘borrow’ the DTR Rail Viaduct models, give them the IDs of the originals and essentially re-skin the El-Rail without making a single new piece. It would also be possible and not difficult, to use different textures for the viaducts too, if you wanted a different style to the rail. 

[rsc204 21,804]

20 hours ago, justforfun said:

I was wondering if I can find some sort of tutorial on how the "FloraParameters" and "FloraPreferences" exemplar properties work.

Also, just to update you, thankfully the information on these has been written up and can be found in this Omnibus article. Although for the purposes of an MMP, you are probably still better off using a good template and leaving it at that.

[justforfun 7,699]

3 hours ago, rsc204 said:

I should also note that MMPs can not be placed onto tiles/squares wherever actual networks are present, the entire tile is a reserved area, even if the texture/model doesn't fully cover it.

Well you'd be surprised, as I was, that it is actually possible to plop MMPs on the el-rail tiles that don't have a pillar. Before starting out with my project I checked by plopping SM2 stone walls and it worked, and my own wall props worked too. The concept was to use the pillar-less tiles to plop overhanging props covering 2 or 3 tiles. I had no idea that S3D MMP don't rotate, or I wouldn't have even started.

3 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Sounds like you want to use T21s, ‘attach’ the props to the network, so they always appear automatically.

That's yet another possible approach, which would require me to get familiar with T21. I wonder how long it would take me to find the correct positions. It sounds possibly more complicated than just replacing the original models.

3 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Is it the style of the El-Rail itself you dislike?

Yes, the style and the empty spaces between pillars. Where I live, viaducts look more like this: https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/12913-dedwd-elevated-rail-shops/

with bricks filling the arches even without shops. 

3 hours ago, rsc204 said:

you could ‘borrow’ the DTR Rail Viaduct models

Yes I could, however the rail viaducts come with empty arches too. Perhaps I could alter the models to fill the "holes", if I managed to locate the viaduct pieces that match the el-rail ones. I don't even know in which file of NAM 30 to look.

[rsc204 21,804]

2 hours ago, justforfun said:

That's yet another possible approach, which would require me to get familiar with T21. I wonder how long it would take me to find the correct positions. It sounds possibly more complicated than just replacing the original models.

So you could simply add the arches from that mod you linked to as T21s, the trouble is they are larger than the single 'lot' a T21 is based on. In short, imagine a 1x1 lot, create that so your props line up as you would like them too with the El-Rail. You just copy the lot data (Props) into a T21 Exemplar and this forms the basis of what get's attached to the network. Ideally for this to work, you'd have a modular model that was no more than 16x16m in size, but if you only have larger pieces, it's still possible by attaching them only every 3 tiles, the 'Patterns' for this as a bit of a faff, but I can certainly help there if your interested. The problem comes when you have a section with such a model, but want to bend the rail, add switches, cross another network, pretty much anywhere an overhanging model will cause a headache. With a 1x1 tile model though, you'd get the straight pieces done very easily.

2 hours ago, justforfun said:

Yes, the style and the empty spaces between pillars. Where I live, viaducts look more like this: https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/12913-dedwd-elevated-rail-shops/ with bricks filling the arches even without shops.

I'm familiar enough with what you are after now, I think you could say such things are pretty typically British for elevated sections. The problem then is are you willing to go to the effort of creating a new model?, to begin with you only need a single straight section, that would make a huge difference on its own. Since you have experiance with RKT 0 models, perhaps this wouldn't be so difficult? For example if you started with the existing Viaduct Rail piece, the modications to the currently empty section is all you'd need to do, you wouldn't have to re-make everything. Then you could re-use all the crossing pieces, since the general style would match, it would make things much lighter workload wise.

2 hours ago, justforfun said:

Yes I could, however the rail viaducts come with empty arches too. Perhaps I could alter the models to fill the "holes", if I managed to locate the viaduct pieces that match the el-rail ones. I don't even know in which file of NAM 30 to look.

The DTR Rail Viaducts are all inside NetworkAddonMod_RailViaducts.dat, you can export/import models as S3D, but I guess you know this? Get yourself a copy of the excellent SC4 Reader (not iLives Reader), it allows you to really see the models, whereas Reader can't dynamically link to any textures not in the open file. It makes life a lot easier when trying to find parts and editing models without a 3D modelling app.

El Conversion - Ortho.dat

I think this is probably the best solution since you aren't new to modelling, so I took the liberty of copying the Ortho piece, giving it the ID of the El-Rail Ortho piece and altering the texture to match the El-Rail rails. If you can 'fill in' the gap by editing this, then it wouldn't be too much work to cover the remaining pieces.

[justforfun 7,699]

21 hours ago, rsc204 said:

The problem comes when you have a section with such a model, but want to bend the rail, add switches, cross another network, pretty much anywhere an overhanging model will cause a headache. With a 1x1 tile model though, you'd get the straight pieces done very easily.

Exactly! In fact I have already made all the pieces a while ago, including diagonals and bridges of various lengths. I just fear that positioning them correctly with T21 might prove hard if not impossible. The models I made are based on the concept of plopping TE lots on the el-rail itself every 2 or 3 tiles, so they are overhanging props. I then abandoned the idea because TE lots on networks diminish functionality plus I couldn't live with el-rail automata stopping every other tile as if it was a station. Now replacing models through T21s or a reskin would require different pieces, only the straight 1x1 would remain unchanged. As an experiment I have recently overrun Maxis el-rail straight piece with mine, and the straight sections look pretty good.

21 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Get yourself a copy of the excellent SC4 Reader (not iLives Reader), it allows you to really see the models, whereas Reader can't dynamically link to any textures not in the open file.

Great idea, being able to see the models with textures located elsewhere would make a big difference. I'll get that one.

21 hours ago, rsc204 said:

The DTR Rail Viaducts are all inside NetworkAddonMod_RailViaducts.dat

Somehow the NAM 30 folders are structured differently, there is no individual viaduct .dat so the models must be inside one of the NetworkAddonMod1, 2, 3, etc. files.

21 hours ago, rsc204 said:

I think this is probably the best solution since you aren't new to modelling, so I took the liberty of copying the Ortho piece, giving it the ID of the El-Rail Ortho piece and altering the texture to match the El-Rail rails. If you can 'fill in' the gap by editing this, then it wouldn't be too much work to cover the remaining pieces.

Thank you, would you be so kind to copy the other pieces too? That would save me the work of searching them in those big NAM files. 

Of course there are a few drawbacks in any el-rail reskin: no more chance of having shops like the ones I linked in selected places, and walls appearing on bridges across water, which would compel the use of a custom el-rail bridge. Not major inconveniences after all, and I guess the perfect solution doesn't exist. 

UPDATE: I have replaced the el-rail models with the viaduct ones, but I still need to fix the intersections between straight el-rail and diagonal networks, where the pieces come rotated in the wrong direction.  I also need to blank out the pillar model or it will show through the viaduct. Looks promising!