NAM and a Roadless city. . .

[adume 0]

Now that we have GLR and Pedestrian malls, is it possible to make a city using only mass transit and ped malls? I know that many/most buildings need to be fronted by roads, and I'm thinking that the pedestrial mall might be a good substitue. I'd love to try this myself but i'm stuck at my office right now (stupid NYC transit strike).

[toxicpiano 125]

it sounds like a good idea, it might work.

[joeynymets 19]

Date: 12/22/2005 4:46:13 PM Author:adume Now that we have GLR and Pedestrian malls, is it possible to make a city using only mass transit and ped malls? I know that many/most buildings need to be fronted by roads, and I'm thinking that the pedestrial mall might be a good substitue. I'd love to try this myself but i'm stuck at my office right now (stupid NYC transit strike).

quote>

 

Well it may work... also if you havent heard, the MTA Strike is over!!! YAY!!!

[Nardo69 51]

I am not an expert on the NAM or any technical issues but as far as I know the pedestrian mall does not work on residentials.

Otherwise a great idea.

Nardo

[prince_of_sims 0]

Date: 12/22/2005 5:15:20 PM Author: Nardo69

as far as I know the pedestrian mall does not work on residentials.

yes, you're right. the ped malls won't work with residential. residential buildings still need to face a road/street. however, there are some minds working on fixing that.

[Lyhoko Leaci 770]

I think you can have the ped paths go along the back of the residential and have a dead end street in front of the residential and have that work, as long as the ped paths are attached to some jobs as well.

[teddyrised 1]

Yup, the Ped Malls do not work with residential zones. What you'll get is the No Transportation zots on top of the R zones.

You can have a workaround by making the R zones facing streets / roads, and having dead ends all over the place which is linked to the Ped Malls.

R: residential zones
P: ped malls
S: street / road
C: commercial
I: industry

CCCP RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR PIIII
CCCP RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR PIIII
CCCPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSP

[adume 0]

Too bad about the residential. . . I think I may give it a shot anyway, though. I'm going to try to figure out a way to have streets only front the res zones.

I'm probably going to have road loops (no outlet) with many bus stops that will connect to other transit:
GLR: Local trafic between ped mall plazas downtown
Subway (maybe): express trafic between ped mall plazas downtown
Ground Rail: Regional traffic between city areas (downtown, res area, suburbs, industrial)

Hopefully, it will look like a nice city to live in, and not a modern city planning nightmare. Will post pics once I give it a try.

[_MostlyHarmless 17]

sounds pretty cool man, give it a try, id love to see the result, regardless if it is a nightmare or not

[Rymac91 15]

I actully designed a city that relyed on Ped destrian traffic but never actully ran it...I have the zones,schools,hospitals,jobs,and other stuff...mind you I designed this to be Pedestrian traffic positive but it relys on busses too.I think I'll start the city and see what it will do lol.but this gave me a Idea...why not make a subway and pedestrian Commercial only city...I think I'll try that also.

[Micah 16]

It sounded like a great idea at first...

[hamsterTK 93]

Now that we have GLR and Pedestrian malls, is it possible to make a city using only mass transit and ped malls? I know that many/most buildings need to be fronted by roads, and I'm thinking that the pedestrial mall might be a good substitue. I'd love to try this myself but i'm stuck at my office right now (stupid NYC transit strike).

quote>


Ohh the irony...

[soldyne 111]

this sounds like a great experiment.  but may I ask why GLR makes such a difference.  my understing was this it was simply an extension of the el-rail which most people will agree is the least used of the mass transit.  otherwise it sounds great.  I may even try my own version of this experiment as you have sparked a few ideas in me already.

 

also, similar experiments have been attempted before trying to make a city with all subway and other forms for mass transit but they did not use pedestrian tiles or GLR.  good luck.

 

<edit> as I was reading the other topic about a subway dominated city, one of the posters mentioned some problems about a roadless city namely how do you send out fire trucks and collect garbage!  some of the built in aspects of SimCity require the presence of roads (streets, avenues, etc).  there may be ways around this but that is what an experiment is all about i guess</edit>

[yayaville 0]

Date: 12/22/2005 10:06:31 PM
Author: terrymunweihao
Yup, the Ped Malls do not work with residential zones. What you'll get is the 'No Transportation' zots on top of the R zones.


You can have a workaround by making the R zones facing streets / roads, and having dead ends all over the place which is linked to the Ped Malls.


R: residential zones

P: ped malls

S: street / road

C: commercial

I: industry


CCCP RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR PIIII

CCCP RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR PIIII

CCCPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSP

quote>
Just to extend on this idea a little, ped malls can go behind residences and connect to the back of a business. Although I haven't run a roadless city (yet) I have seen sims walking out the back door of their houses, across a ped mall, and into the back door of their workplace. Kind of cool.

Like this:


SSSSSS
RRRRRR
PPPPPP
CCCCCC
SSSSSS

You can also put mass transit stops along those dead-end streets and on the edges of the ped malls so people can move around the city.

I guess services don't really need a street connection (or road or whatever) to a house as long as it doesn't catch fire. But if everything's within the radius of effect of a fire station, fire won't start anyway, right?

[HunterIrked 1]

Sounds like a good idea, but I dont think it will work. Almost all residential and commerical buildings need to be next to a road, and every other building needs to be near one, if not next to one. Its worth a try...

[soldyne 111]

sorry to steal your thunder adume, but, your topic put a bee in my bonnet (so what if I wear a bonnet, wanna make something of it?), so, I actually ran a test city, and here are the results:

 

this is an overall pic of the city.  Population is about 14k.  medium density all around (high density industry).  the main design is that res needs to be facing a street (at minimum) so I placed a bunch of streets down and used buses to connect the res streets to industry streets.  the only way to get to industry work is by bus.  then I placed a row of ped mall tiles between the res and com.  I also put a subway station within the ped mall tile strip.  now the only way to get to comm is by walking or taking the subway:

 

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/8049/successfulcity5kl.jpg align=baseline>

 

here is a zone data view.  I have to admit that I did not know that com could build facing a ped mall tile until I tried it out.  so for the most part my comm zones all face a street which does not go anywhere except the very last strip I placed which was actually an accident on my part.  now I know!:

 

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/5286/zoning9ml.jpg align=baseline>

 

here are some pics of traffic data.  you can plainly see pedestrians win out with bus and subway neck and neck.  I did not use passenger rail or any other kind of transit as this was just a quick experiment done in about 30 minuets.  future experiments with this will get more complex and have more planning involved:

 

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/3184/pedswin5dq.jpg align=baseline>

 

Here is a pic of the car traffic volume.  only 12 people in a city of 14k use thier car.  I guess they are new to the city!  lol:

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/7137/wherearetheygoing8pu.jpg align=baseline>

 

average commute time is about 45 minuets.  I am sure I can lessen this using an acutal plan for layout.  like I said I just through this together really quick, no tile counting or anything:

 

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/1229/commute3nu.jpg align=baseline>

 

one of the things I brought up earlier in this thread was the idea that garbage needed road access to pick up trash.  I let the trash pile up and then plopped some of simgoobers new trash incinerators (less pollution due to filtering technology) and to my pleasing surprise garbage does NOT need road access:

 

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/5647/garbagepiles9fq.jpg align=baseline>

 

http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/3374/nogarbage2vj.jpg align=baseline>

 

this is an astounding idea and one which I will explore further.  the only problem is that the idea is just not realistic.  no real city would ever have the authority to make personal vehicles useless.  although one idea I can think of is that the city is taking place in the future when global warming has gone too far and fossil fuels are totaly used up.  then a city with walking and mass transit only makes a lot more sense...

 

If more people think this experiment deserves more time then I will post more pics.  I will be continuing this experiment for my own sake but I will only post if others are interested in the findings.

 

thanks for the idea adume and I may even try to squeeze this design into my CJ, Newtopia Valley , take a look!

[XpirAment 0]

adume,

I'm with you on this one. Automobiles have ruined our cities; it's time to take them back with pedestrian malls! Down with Ford, Chevy, and Dodge! (oh, whatever...)

I tried a CJ/experiment once that was destined to be a carless city, but not roadless. (You can see it here: Anticar . I would have finished it, but that was before my computer dumped on me.)

My advice, never underestimate the power of subways. They are best when crossing under your city, diagonally, and they take up so little space on the surface. Here's an example of one idea used in that city.

I think when it comes down to it, a roadless city would be quite difficult to accomplish. But hey, if we put a man on the moon...

[Elegnaim 0]

I've got my own idea from this. I'll hash out the maps in a really simplistic ASCII form.

R - Res.
C - Commercial
P - Pedimall.
S - Road
M - Monorail
T - Monorail Track

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TSSSSSSSSSSSSST
TSRRRRRRRRRRRST
TSRPPPPPPPPPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
MSRPPPPPPPPPRSM
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPPPPPPPPPRST
TSRRRRRRRRRRRST
TSSSSSSSSSSSSST
T T
T T
T T
TSSSSSSSSSSSSST
TSRRRRRRRRRRRST
TSRPPPPPPPPPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
MSRPPPPPPPPPRSM
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPCCCPCCCPRST
TSRPPPPPPPPPRST
TSRRRRRRRRRRRST
TSSSSSSSSSSSSST
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

Etc. Now, imagine each of these little prefectures having different commerce/residential balance, and also having substantially more shells. Ideally, no-one should EVER be terribly far from their workplace.

Granted, I don't know jack about building monorails, and I've never had much luck with getting the sims to use mass transit, but this is basically the idea.

The main problem, with this and, like, every other system using this concept, as it's already been mentioned, is that firetrucks might have trouble getting around. Also, I'd probably link each road layer with another road.

[adume 0]

Hey guys, thanks for all the input!
Well, I've started the city - with much success. There are roads, but only bus loops and shuttle roads for busses. ALL roads are HOV only.

Here are quick stats to hold you over until I get home to post screenshots:

All residential zones front the roads for busses.

Commercial zones are usually only fronted by ped malls.

Industrial is a mix of HOV, ground rail, and ped malls.

Population: about 14,000
***Only 5 people drive to work. Pedistrian traffic is by far the highest form of traffic in my city. (the graph looks like yours, soldyne)

The View: The city looks like an old organic city. I didn't use a grid at all - in fact, it looks quite crazy. As it turns out, using Ped malls in this way really makes the city beautiful. Can't wait to show you the screenshots.

Note: I haven't had any fires yet, but I noticed that the sims have no problem getting the garbage to the landfill. There is a road of course, but it just goes from the landfill (outside city centre) to the city center, where it dead ends. Somehow, the spawning of garbage trucks works in a way that doesn't cause problems for my city. I don't know about fires. . . we'll have to see about that.

[jackel.22 3]

this is an interesting idea, im off to try and make a car free city too.

[adume 0]

Something Else about a Ped City:

Once I started this city, I began to realize that this was a great opportunity to get away from the grid. When you're dealing with a city without cars, laying out the ped malls in a grid pattern doesn't make sense - congestion isn't a factor in pedestrian traffic.

[1ajs 49]

nice start lol i made a roadles res development with comric in tdk... with a mono rail contection to conect it to downtown....

gridles city hmm that could be a intrsting city mean go back to the mid evil way of just a random layout

[Elegnaim 0]

I'm wondering if one could use those, er, elevated parks from that one mod to do something interesting with the mandatory roads.

[soldyne 111]

I continued my experiment with a roadless city and discovered a big snag.  if your commercial zones are not somehow connected to a road/street/avenue network then there is no way to get an airport to work.  although I was able to build a city with over 200k residence with a roadless design and there was plenty of commercial zones with lots of demand.  so, perhaps an airport is not really needed.

[Elegnaim 0]

Hey, Dweller. In my game, non-contiguous segments of road don't count as connected. That is to say, if I have to stretches of road and build res zones on both, if the roads aren't connected, none of the residential zones register having road connections. What're you doing different :| I'm assuming you have some sort of mass transit layout going, but, er...

also, how did you generate such a high commerce demand so fast O_o My commerce demand usually peters out around three buildings, in the beginning.

[soldyne 111]

Date: 12/29/2005 5:42:15 PM Author: Elegnaim Hey, Dweller. In my game, non-contiguous segments of road don't count as connected. That is to say, if I have to stretches of road and build res zones on both, if the roads aren't connected, none of the residential zones register having road connections. What're you doing different :| I'm assuming you have some sort of mass transit layout going, but, er... also, how did you generate such a high commerce demand so fast O_o My commerce demand usually peters out around three buildings, in the beginning.

quote>

 

I assume you are addressing me.  my name here is Soldyne.  Dweller is my rank given to me by Simtropolis for having 200 posts (or something like that).  simple mistake I guess.

 

anyway, what you say is true if the road with res is not somehow connected to jobs in anyway.  if you look closely at my previous pics further up on this thread you can see that I use a bus station to bridge the gap between the streets with res and the streets with industry.  the bus station is considered to be a transit enabled lot which allows sims to use it to get to work.  but in order to get to work they have to pass the bus station thus turning them all into buses.

 

about commercial demand.  I dont know what you mean by generate such a high commerce demand so fast.  the city I was talking about was nearly 100 game years old.  it is true that commercial demand is very slow in the beginning.  in a new city and new region you need to concentrate on industry first, and then raise education and then your commercial demand with take off.  I would say more but this thread is about carless cities and using ped mall tiles and I dont want to get off topic.

 

if anyone wants some pics and details about my 250k carless city just ask.

[newyorkstate 6]

WOW! Interesting idea! i love this idea!

*runs off to play sc4*

[adume 0]

Okay, I finally have some screenshots for you. Here are the only two photos I have of the city in its early days:




More to come. . .

[adume 0]

Here is the city overview after about 20 years:

I'm sure I don't have to explain the color codes to anyone here. . .



A district breakdown of the res island. The areas developed in the following order: Orange, red, green, blue, yellow, purple.



Street Layout.
BLACK = Main Bus loop
YELLOW = Dead end streets/bus shuttles
RED = Island exits (note that the bridge on the left is attached to the dead end street, not the main loop)


The bridge in question above leads to the landfill. Somehow, this is working. Capacity is way above trash level.

[adume 0]

A closer view. . .







Industry has come a long way. It may look like there are a lot of roads here, but they are all HOV lanes. I've marked the bus stops and train stations.

STATS:

Okay, here's the important stuff. . .