Buildings have visual bug splines crooked jagged drooping

[Shanethemain 68]

Hi, I've been playing SC4 since the beginning and never really had much of an issue with bugs or visual glitches. I did end up some years ago with the dreaded large spline bug that puts a huge line across the front of a building when plopped, but nothing much else of note. Lately, however, I have been noticing that many of the buildings are starting to get a weird visual glitch where the splines do not match up and the buildings start to look like they are drooping or sagging on one side. It kind of looks like jagged lines going down at a slant, making parts of the building look deformed or disconnected. I had noticed this more on tall buildings, but even small ones sometimes get it as well. Also, I should note that this seems to be most affected by the positioning of the building-which direction and on what area of land. Likewise, sometimes when it looks fine at one zoom level, if I zoom in I will see the same issue, usually on one side (never on all 4 sides though).

Can anyone tell me what this might be? I seem to recall some topics describing this very problem a number of years ago, but I can no longer find them. Is this another (delayed) side affect from the other spline bug? I am still using the old disc version of the game, so perhaps that even may be having an effect. I would just like to somehow find a fix or a patch if at all possible. I would be incredibly grateful for any help or advice you could give. Thank you so much!

[rsc204 21,808]

Graphics-related problem most likely. Your GPU/Drivers are simply not displaying things optimally. Usually this is down to minor incompatibilities between modern hardware and an older game. You may find using a different version of your videocard drivers helps. Older is often better, but beware this may have negative consequences when running newer software. Otherwise you might find playing around with the 3D settings for SC4 can improve things.

[Shanethemain 68]

Thanks, I hope you are right. It feels like more of a visual bug, to be honest, but I will definitely check on my videocard and the 3D settings. My card is one of the worst out there, so I should probably be upgrading anyways. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

There is also the possibility that you'll soon have no choice on getting a new GPU.  It sort of sounds like your current one is slowly dying. 

I am in a similar position because my chip set has been denigrated by the vendor for a couple of years or more and no drivers of any kind are available for it (officially).  I am limping along on a beta driver which is not on the next edition of the O/S, so I am getting into a forced putt.  I am seriously thinking of replacing my entire box of tricks (it is a desktop) by simply getting a new tower with newer toys.

I am not in a hurry since I have a serious health problem that might take me out, but if things start looking better, a new machine is in the offing just because I want one.

[Shanethemain 68]

Thank you for your help! Since both of you believe it is my GPU, I
guess I need to start seriously looking into a new one. I had been
running a desktop (Sony VAIO) as well, but made the switch to a
Samsung laptop. I've had that now for a few years and never really
been pleased with it (plenty of RAM and memory, but lacking in all
other areas).This time I will make the effort to invest in a high
quality unit. 

By the way, its always good to see you around, A Nonny
Moose. If memory serves me, you've been on here since this site
started up. I've been seeing/reading your posts for years, and you
always seem to have great insights and an expert knowledge on
computers. Also, I'm certainly wishing you the very best with your
health!
 

[rsc204 21,808]

I feel I should clarify, especially if you are considering spending money to resolve this.

When I say the issue is related to the GPU, that's not in any way indicative of a fault. If you want to play a DirectX 7 game with guaranteed compatibility, then buy a card designed for Direct X 7. Which incidentally won't help you, unless you are using something very antiquated indeed, for starters it wouldn't physically fit in your PC.

A PC is not like a console, there is no unified GPU chip and software combination that ensures every player will get the same experience. Even at launch, different GPUs gave different results, some worked better than others. When you add the drivers (plus various Windows versions) into the equation, things quickly become less than clear.

For example, I do see the same issue from time to time, but it's not consistent in any way. This is with a modern NVidia GXT 750ti, although I've stuck with some 18 month old drivers, because I don't like change. I know my GPU works just fine, before editing the 3D settings things were a little unacceptable really, but after some trial and error I found a nice balance.

Perhaps it sounds unintuitive, but buying a newer card, is less likely to get you better results with SC4. You don't need a whole load of GPU power to run the game, throwing an expensive GPU at it is a waste of money if you've no other use for it. But the issue is simply one of compatibility. Some cards can support legacy Direct X features better than others, as can some drivers, as can some versions of Windows. If your GPU was dying, you'd probably have some really clear indication of it, the most common failures are either:

• Overheating
  Normally you will know, because every time it hits the thermal limit, the computer will CTD to prevent damage to the GPU/system.
  Usually caused by failing fans, the weakest point of many cards, even expensive ones. Otherwise poor ventilation/maintenance. Ever cleaned the inside of your PC for example? They can get very dusty, preventing proper ventilation.
• Failing V-RAM (Video Memory)
  Usually obvious. If it's occurring, parts of the display get randomly garbled. Not small lines, but segments where the memory can not be read/written without error.
• Chips coming loose from the solder
  Symptoms are the same as overheating usually. Although it will fail a lot quicker.
  Caused by poor quality solder or manufacturing. Over time, it gets hot/cold and this causes expansion and contraction of the joins. Some cards are just badly made, NVidia made a batch of crap for quite some time a few years back and never really owned up to it. (Millions of failures and extended warranties from large PC manufactures don't lie, even if NVidia will). HP Laptops are especially prone to problems in my experience (see more of them dead than any other brand). Doesn't help that modern lead-free solder can't handle the tolerances of older lead-based solder either.
  Interesting fact: this is the cause of the Red Ring of Death with the Xbox 360 console, and Yellow Ring of Death with PS3s.

So perhaps save your money, unless you really want a new GPU/computer. Because a new one may actually require you to switch to Software Rendering just to make SC4 run. Since reports of incompatibility with modern GPUs are becoming ever more frequent the last few years. It's not like the vendor can answer the question "will this work with SC4?" either. They are designing the cards for modern games that the mass market wants to play. NVidia and ATI are very good at supporting legacy games, this is an area where both companies make huge efforts, which is commendable. But that relies on past knowledge and legacy code, for the most part, these things aren't tested or designed to work specifically with them. Ultimately, their market (and customers) is dominated by new titles, where people spend big bucks to squeeze every ounce of performance out of them. Sometimes, for modern games to work better, legacy support must be neutered, even a driver update can throw things out, it doesn't have to be the physical hardware.

[Odainsaker 2,134]

Do the jagged line glitches you are seeing look like the one in the following image of the NYBT General Motors Building by Darknono35?

Or like the slicing happening to the NYBT Maritime Exchange Building by Vlasky below?

If so, this is actually very common for SimCity and I do not know if there really is an easy fix for it...as you can see, it is even in two great BAT Masters' own uploaded presentation images!

If not, can you show us a screen grab of what is happening?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

@Shanethemain

Thank you.  My join up date is a year or two after the founding of this site, but I've been around for a long time.  Getting old, by the way, sucks.  If there is any gold in the golden years, I think the health practitioners get it.

[Shanethemain 68]

Thank you all for taking the time to reply and offer so much help! My apologies for not responding
sooner. My internet provider has been having some issues lately.

To rsc204: I understand what you are
saying, and thank you for clarifying. I do feel that there are some compatibility issues at play, and I
still may upgrade my entire machine. I actually at one point had considered getting an older
model/backup computer and installing older software just to be able to run SC4 in it's own proper
element, but I will probably have to switch to the online/steam version at some point unless I can find
another new/semi-new disc version. In any case, you are right, it probably isn't worth investing in a
whole new GPU simply for the game itself. And thank you for the wealth of information you
provided. I am not a computer maven, so that info will be useful in the future. Thank you again.

To
Odainsaker: Thank you so much for the images! That is EXACTLY what it looks like! I used to not have
that problem, or at least it wasn't noticeable, but over the last year or so it has become something of
a burden trying to avoid. I find that I have keep trying different sections of land/choosing different
rotation positions just to keep it from happening. Even then, sometimes it will randomly show up when
zoomed in on an otherwise seemingly unaffected building. And you say that there is no known fix or
patch or anything to eliminate it? 

To A Nonny Moose: You are absolutely right! I really like how you
put that! It's disturbing but true.... By the way, do you happen to know what ever became of
Simgoober and Pegasus? I remember reading that BarbyW passed on not too long ago. Very sad
indeed.  
 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

2 hours ago, Shanethemain said:

<snip>

To A Nonny Moose: You are absolutely right! I really like how you
put that! It's disturbing but true.... By the way, do you happen to know what ever became of
Simgoober and Pegasus? I remember reading that BarbyW passed on not too long ago. Very sad
indeed.  
 

OK, well, the Pegasus site collapsed, but most of the content was rescued and can be found in the PLEX section of the STEX.  I've no idea what happened to the principal over there.  SimGoober seems to have gone on to better things.

On the PLEX, there were others who also stepped in, and if you hunt around for stuff you can't find, you may find it on other sites.  Just make sure that your firewall is operating if you start hunting around for things.  Some miscreants may be lurking out there.

[Shanethemain 68]

Yes indeed, I had noticed a while back that Simtropolis had incorporated his material. I always felt that his contributions were some of the most important to the game, especially his pioneering early work. At least it is all being rightfully preserved.

Well, thanks again for all of your help!   

[Prophet42 1,501]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:27 PM, Shanethemain said:

To
Odainsaker: Thank you so much for the images! That is EXACTLY what it looks like! I used to not have
that problem, or at least it wasn't noticeable, but over the last year or so it has become something of
a burden trying to avoid. I find that I have keep trying different sections of land/choosing different
rotation positions just to keep it from happening. Even then, sometimes it will randomly show up when
zoomed in on an otherwise seemingly unaffected building. And you say that there is no known fix or
patch or anything to eliminate it? 

I had the same issue with a building I downloaded from NDEX.  I did find a fix for it but it was so long ago, that I can't remember what I did.  I found it either here on Simtropolis Forums or over on SC4Devotion.  I'll keep looking for it and post it here if I can find the solution.  Sorry I couldn't be more help now...it was 7 or 8 years ago when I had the issue.

[Odainsaker 2,134]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:27 PM, Shanethemain said:

Thank you so much for the images! That is EXACTLY what it looks like! I used to not have
that problem, or at least it wasn't noticeable, but over the last year or so it has become something of
a burden trying to avoid. I find that I have keep trying different sections of land/choosing different
rotation positions just to keep it from happening. Even then, sometimes it will randomly show up when
zoomed in on an otherwise seemingly unaffected building. And you say that there is no known fix or
patch or anything to eliminate it? 

Good news is that your GPU is probably not melting down!

This is an old bug and it may even be a universal bug--at least, once you notice it and know what to look for, you start to see it in almost everyone's SimCity 4 images.  I've had Windows XP, Windows 7, many versions of DirectX, Intel GPUs, ATI GPUs, Nvidia GPUs, old hardware, new hardware...and yet they've all shown the same glitch since SimCity 4 first came out and they only seem to show this with SimCity 4.  It will even show on the separate Lot Editor, and you can spend hours tweaking the position of a BAT to minimize the glitches in one rotation view and zoom, only to have exacerbated the problem in the other views and zooms.  It affects both original Maxis buildings and player-made BATs....I've even seen it on shrubs and planter props, and, I admit, even my BATs show them to me.  Even SimFox and Jasoncw have shown their own ingame shots of their BATs, and their simcities and BATs seem to have these glitches.  The effect will not show in renders made within gmax or 3ds Max, whose own renderers are separate from that of Maxis, but BATs made in gmax or 3ds Max will be affected once they are imported into and displayed within Maxis's Lot Editor or SimCity 4.

What I think is happening is a result of the 2.5D graphics scheme used by Maxis, where there are underlying simple 3D meshes made up of triangles in the game world (the LOD shells as S3D files) that, rather than using interpolated texture mapping, use pre-rendered images (as FSH files) cut and pegged to the coordinates of the mesh triangles.  The vertices of the underlying meshes and the coordinates of their resulting triangular faces can have a vast range of fidelity and decimal places, which can vary not only on the size and shape of the mesh but by its positioning on a LOT, are cast in axonometric perspective angles with a fixed viewpoint, and are then further projected as triangular 2D silhouettes to be mapped.  However, the pre-rendered images of our buildings to be pegged to these projected triangles are extremely limited in their range of positioning by their fixed pixels--they must fit to the pixel resolution and must do so without any interpolation or re-rendering.  I suspect when the difference between the precision of the mapping coordinates of the final projected triangle and the allowable positioning of the pre-rendered map exceeds some tolerance threshold, the graphics algorithms shifts the map to find the best fit or even rounds up or down coordinates.  The visual result is that triangular shards of our buildings look shifted out of alignment, often by a single pixel, though many such discrepancies can add up to huge, zigzagging fault lines.

Buildings with meshes made up of lots of faces will have more chances for the glitch to appear, and so large buildings, closer zooms, and buildings with complicated LODs will be more prone.  While the glitch is often camouflaged by rich textures and elaborate details, it becomes very pronounced on buildings with starkly regular and predictable patterns, like the two BATs shown above.  The glitch is also variable...if you move the BAT around on its LOT in the Lot Editor or ingame, you change the triangles that are affected for that BAT across all views and zooms, and you can sometimes reposition BATs to minimize the effect.

I have not seen a specifically recommended and popularized fix for this, as I too see it not as a fault in our GPUs, but as a quirk of the early, crude 3D graphics tricks of 13-year old game.  So many of us have so many different system, hardware, and game configuration setups, and yet so many of us actually have the issue and have had it for so long, that I'm not sure if there really is a comprehensive fix, though I would love to be shown wrong so I can implement any cool solution myself.  Maybe there is a tweak that can be done to the game's under-the-hood settings or some option on the controls of the GPU, but I would not know where to look or what sort of values to apply.  Judging by the pictures in the City Journals, Mayor Diaries, STEX, LEX, and even just on Google Images, many players don't seem to even be aware that it is affecting them, most of the glitches are minor and easily ignored, and many of us have simply gotten accustomed to overlooking them.  Of course, now that you're aware of them, you too are going to see them everywhere for awhile!