This modern age.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Is this an example of overblown political correctness, overblown revisionism or delayed justice?

When a benefactor endows an educational institute, which are usually struggling to meet the payroll, does using a symbol of the donor constitute an error centuries later?  In this particular case, I think that since this crest was only in use since 1930, it may well have been an error.  By that time the full impact of the symbol had been somewhat diluted, but was it appropriate?  I think not.

[Skimbo 304]

This is the kind of 21st century problems which help our society finding a topic to worry about whilst ignoreing the real problems.

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

32 minutes ago, Skimbo said:

This is the cind of 21st century problems which help our society finding a topic to worry about whilst ignoreing the real problems.

 

What did you really mean to say there?  You really should use the spell checker. 

I take it to mean that it is a red herring.  The problem is that it isn't rotten enough to attract enough attention.

[Duke87 1,070]

Quote

Last week, the university announced that it would stop using the term "master" in academic titles, because of connotations of slavery.

This caught my attention but apparently it isn't what it sounds like. The school is going to stop calling the head of each dormitory a "house master"... which, yeah, I can see easily being mistaken for having connotations of slavery. They are not, as far as I can tell, going to change what they call masters degrees, or stop using the title "master of arts"/"master of science", which would just be silly.

 

As for the school's coat of arms, meh. It's been in use for less than a quarter of the school's history. It changed before, it can change again.

 

[raynev1 1,886]

Like people don't have anything better to complain about . 

[Easy Bakes 253]

Okay , raise your hands if you knew anything about the origins of the crest of Harvard law school.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I should think some student had to dig it out, then his "outrage" went viral on the net?

[Easy Bakes 253]

3 hours ago, A Nonny Moose said:

I should think some student had to dig it out, then his "outrage" went viral on the net?

Exactly. you should be too busy with studies at Harvard Law to even be getting enough sleep

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I love the comment about allowing protesters to pay the Royall heirs back with compound interest over the 198 years! If enough protest, the fee shouldn't be too much more added to tuition (by percentage)

[NMUSpidey 3,956]

Things change all the time.  It's not like Harvard Law School is going to outlast the sun anyways.  If a bunch of kids and grievance mongers want to change the seal, I see no problem with that.  Why can't they start a new tradition?  Some of the other stuff seemed a little... toddler-ish, like the demands for a name change to whatever was named after Woodrow Wilson.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Since most people here have a lot more problems with symbols of Nazism than symbols of slavery I suggest the following: every time you read a story like this, before you go on the internet to complain about historical revisionism and such, think how you would have reacted if instead of a symbol of slavery, it was a Swastika or some other Nazi symbol that people were complaining about. If suddenly you think that the students/SJW's have a point when they complain about the symbol, take a deep breath and let it go. 

SJW's complain about plenty of other stuff that is actually ridiculous. Like the outrage of JK Rowlings use of Native American mythology in her new work and it supposed appropriation and misrepresentation of Native American culture in a work of fantasy fiction. 

[Linoa06 1,374]

On 3/10/2016 at 9:36 AM, LexusInfernus said:

Since most people here have a lot more problems with symbols of Nazism than symbols of slavery I suggest the following: every time you read a story like this, before you go on the internet to complain about historical revisionism and such, think how you would have reacted if instead of a symbol of slavery, it was a Swastika or some other Nazi symbol that people were complaining about. If suddenly you think that the students/SJW's have a point when they complain about the symbol, take a deep breath and let it go. 

SJW's complain about plenty of other stuff that is actually ridiculous. Like the outrage of JK Rowlings use of Native American mythology in her new work and it supposed appropriation and misrepresentation of Native American culture in a work of fantasy fiction. 

They complain about too much, it's becoming ridiculous. "Cultural appropriation" has bound to be my favourite, though. No more burritos, yoga, baguettes, hamburgers, etc. unless you're part of the initial group that came up with it.

Seriously, what is this, if not 21st century racial segregation? What SJWs call political correctness I call Jim Crow laws. SJWs need to educate themselves about how culture works in the first place.

It's not as bad as those idiots trying to tear down the Rhodes statue, though. You can't fight your past by hiding it and pretending you've never done it. And yeah, if it was the Nazi symbol it'd probably go - and maybe so should the slavery related symbols - but there's a world of difference between the removal of a symbol for something that directly refers to some ideology that still has a clear and very negative real-world influence to this day and things like "we won't say house master" because it might remind people of slavery. The latter is absolutely stupid, it's like banning all depictions of ancient Rome and eagles because Hitler used them.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The swastika used to be an indigenous people's symbol of good luck.  It was appropriated by the NAZIs (inverted, by the way), and has been anathema ever since 1945.  Now we have kids who really are ignorant of all the surrounding facts making fusses over this and that that indicates that they really don't have enough to do.

Maybe we make a mistake by emphasizing the idea that a university level education is necessary to be successful.  Generally speaking, our culture has discouraged people from entering the 'blue collar' trades, and now we have a shortage of good tradesmen. 

One of the great prizes we got when we admitted a family of Syrian refugees, is that the father was an experienced blacksmith.  These are getting fewer and farther between, and there is always a need for a smith when hand working metal is needed.  The art of the smithy requires a bright person with considerable physical strength as well as a respect for, but not a fear of, fire.  Often these people are also artists who produce fantastic sculptures in metal, thus contributing to our culture.

Beats the dickens out of complaining about trivia over the Internet.

[LexusInfernus 908]

20 minutes ago, A Nonny Moose said:

The swastika used to be an indigenous people's symbol of good luck.  It was appropriated by the NAZIs (inverted, by the way), and has been anathema ever since 1945.  Now we have kids who really are ignorant of all the surrounding facts making fusses over this and that that indicates that they really don't have enough to do.

What surrounding facts? And what do you mean, they are ignorant of them? Have you tested their knowledge on them? 

20 minutes ago, A Nonny Moose said:

Maybe we make a mistake by emphasizing the idea that a university level education is necessary to be successful.  Generally speaking, our culture has discouraged people from entering the 'blue collar' trades, and now we have a shortage of good tradesmen. 

One of the great prizes we got when we admitted a family of Syrian refugees, is that the father was an experienced blacksmith.  These are getting fewer and farther between, and there is always a need for a smith when hand working metal is needed.  The art of the smithy requires a bright person with considerable physical strength as well as a respect for, but not a fear of, fire.  Often these people are also artists who produce fantastic sculptures in metal, thus contributing to our culture.

We don't have a shortage of blue collar workers, and we don't need to many of them since their job sectors will be hit the hardest by advances in automation. Is there are shortage of smiths? Is hand crafted metalwork that large of a sector in the economy. We can produce more smiths and then 99 out of every 100 we produce would not get a job. 

20 minutes ago, A Nonny Moose said:

Beats the dickens out of complaining about trivia over the Internet.

Whats wrong with complaining about trivia on the internet? What people do in their free time is their business. If they want to spend it complaining about issues they think important, its not only their business, in most cases its even their right. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

If you don't know, O complainer over trivia, find a mirror.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

On March 9, 2016 at 7:49 AM, LexusInfernus said:

1. What surrounding facts? And what do you mean, they are ignorant of them? Have you tested their knowledge on them? 

2. We don't have a shortage of blue collar workers, and we don't need to many of them since their job sectors will be hit the hardest by advances in automation. Is there are shortage of smiths? Is hand crafted metalwork that large of a sector in the economy. We can produce more smiths and then 99 out of every 100 we produce would not get a job. 

3. Whats wrong with complaining about trivia on the internet? What people do in their free time is their business. If they want to spend it complaining about issues they think important, its not only their business, in most cases its even their right. 

1. There are some historical documents that showed that some Germans (mostly the ones that became NAZIs) liked the promise of vendetta against France and totalitarianism and were unconcerned with human rights violations.

2. North America currently has a shortage of blue collar workers and artisans/smiths (creative inventors/engineers/manufacturers).

3.  "Fundamental human rights apply to all adult human beings in a cultures in all technological levels. Everything else is a privilege or civil liberty." Entitled, liberal Millennials--unaware of their own privileges--take to the Internet echo chamber instead of being productive. I find respectful neocons more tolerable than entitled liberal Millennials while preferring the wisdom, knowledge, and perspective of elder statesmen and (retired or emeritus) professors.

  Edited March 13, 2016 by OcramsRzr  
Removed mentions

[LexusInfernus 908]

5 hours ago, OcramsRzr said:

2. North America currently has a shortage of blue collar workers and artisans/smiths (creative inventors/engineers/manufacturers).

Well, creative inventors/engineers/manufacturers aren't exactly blue collar workers given that in order to become any of that, you need a college education in a beta field. Blue collar workers are the people that work in the factories, that handle the machines, and there are plenty of those in America being unemployed because their bosses moved the factory they used to work in to another country, or because they got a robot to do the job they used to do. 

5 hours ago, OcramsRzr said:

3.  "Fundamental human rights apply to all adult human beings in a cultures in all technological levels. Everything else is a privilege or civil liberty." Entitled, liberal Millennials--unaware of their own privileges--take to the Internet echo chamber instead of being productive. I find respectful neocons like @MilitantRadical more tolerable than entitled liberal Millennials like @LexusInfernus while preferring the wisdom, knowledge, and perspective of elder statesmen and (retired or emeritus) professors like @A Nonny Moose.

Freedom of speech is a fundamental human right, and complaining about supposed 'trivia' (although I disagree that slavery and America's race problem is mere trivia, compared to Nazism) on the internet is making use of your freedom of speech. As for their 'productivity' sure their complaints don't build cars, but their protests do lead to changes, it does force people to think for a moment about the problems they are dealing with. I'd say thats being pretty productive on a social and cultural level. A lot more productive than the venerated generation of babyboomer hippies whose preferred method of protest and enacting change was by organizing a big music festival. Or the students in Europe who went on massive protests back in the 60's protesting the system and who are now top executives in the private sector, or high level bureaucrats in the government. 

As for the notion that I'm entitled, I think its grossly insulting. No one here knows me well enough to suggest that I'm 'entitled'. You do realize that millennials are part of a generation that is currently being screwed over by everyone. We have to find jobs while the economy is broken, we have to work for less pay than the generations before us and with less job security, the interests rates are so low that saving has become impossible, while the cost of living has gone up significantly, meaning that even if we could save, most of the money goes straight into paying for rent and food. And then we got old pensioners and conservatives telling us we are 'entitled' because some of us dare point out flaws in the system or demand change? 

[AkemiAzula 280]

I can't help but think it would be nice to get a Tardis and go back in time and make it so that from the dawn of mankind there was a single nation, a single race and a single religion and language.

Then found all the other nations, races and religions and languages on other inhabitable worlds.

Then when they communicated in a extraterrestrial age of discovery instead of worrying our consciences over our past we would be able to have pure societies but also exist equally.

Methinks multiculturalism is a problematic system. Each planet should be harmonious, and if it contains multiple cultures they should exist in a partitioned, balanced way like in Avatar/Legend of Korra.

However as we have but one planet naturally for the time being compromise is necessary. 

I think maybe the best practical way to deal with the past is to treat it like childhood. The Romans were our school years, Nazism was a teenage phase etc. Instead of calling the past 'wrong' we should think of history as a student learning and experimenting.

Certainly silly things like this Wilson issue strike me as being like not being able to get oversome stupid embarassing teenage lark.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

A blue collar worker is not only the Tillie the Toiler types, but it includes what is generally referred to as trades.  The interesting thing is that some tradesmen are more highly educated than some people with doctorates.  The colour of one's shirt is immaterial.  For example, the ultimate craftsman in the woodworking art is usually referred to as a cabinet maker.  These people are artisans in wood, and few and far between.  It is the ultimate goal of many master carpenters to become recognized as cabinet makers.

Is an engineer a white collar or a blue collar worker?  Something of both, depending on the particular discipline.  The line becomes very blurred with civil engineers who go our on construction sites and do more than stand around looking pretty and handing out drawings.  Often these people get a lot more than hands dirty.

Recently there has been a lot of squabbling in undergraduate circles about the title of 'master'.  While this may have some very old connotations of slavery, the title of master has been around for millennia and doesn't necessarily mean 'master of men'.  Semantic arguments like this are strictly academic and need to remain there rather than disrupt a settled order because of some narrow vision.

There is an old quote implying the equality of man that I like.  It has been around for as long as I can remember and I don't know the source:  "When Adam delved and Eve span, who then was the gentle man?"

Now, personal crests denoting old slave holders are one thing, but titles like 'house master' are another.  They really shouldn't be held up in the same argument.  It is one thing to have mastery over an object (like a dormitory) or a profession/trade "master of arts", "master carpenter" and entirely another to have mastery (ownership) over a person.  Let's not let grammar mess up our semantics here.

[LexusInfernus 908]

2 hours ago, A Nonny Moose said:

A blue collar worker is not only the Tillie the Toiler types, but it includes what is generally referred to as trades.  The interesting thing is that some tradesmen are more highly educated than some people with doctorates.  The colour of one's shirt is immaterial.  For example, the ultimate craftsman in the woodworking art is usually referred to as a cabinet maker.  These people are artisans in wood, and few and far between.  It is the ultimate goal of many master carpenters to become recognized as cabinet makers.

And there isn't that much demand for artisan woodworkers. Its amazing what those people can do, but most people buy their furniture from large stores like IKEA, who simply mass produce any type of furniture you can imagine. This is true for nearly every artisan craft, demand for it is simply not that great because machines can do most of the work and mass produce the products people want. And that is of sufficient quality for most people. 

2 hours ago, A Nonny Moose said:

Recently there has been a lot of squabbling in undergraduate circles about the title of 'master'.  While this may have some very old connotations of slavery, the title of master has been around for millennia and doesn't necessarily mean 'master of men'.  Semantic arguments like this are strictly academic and need to remain there rather than disrupt a settled order because of some narrow vision.

The argument is, as Duke already pointed out, about the title of 'house master'. Whether you agree with that argument or not, why would you go after the people that are making the argument for supposedly not studying hard enough, acting entitled, acting like victims, etc? Even if you disagree with the argument, surely you could respect peoples right to make the argument? And even if you disagree with the argument, why act like it personally matters to you what these people are saying? 

Also, whats wrong with disrupting settled orders? Thats how progress is made, if no one was ever allowed to disrupt any settled orders we would still be living in caves like hunter gatherers. 

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Engineers, Artisans, Factory Workers, and don't forget these guys: http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/dirty-jobs/

Assembly line workers are the lower end of blue collar. They don't need to do much and unions gaurentee them wages that few want to pay.

I'm a millennial myself but I don't feel entitled to anything. I graciously accept everything given and try to honor my supporters by pursuing higher education in a STEM field and donating spare time to charity. I don't complain about not getting enough and I call complainers out on their privileges. I'm privileged myself. I have the following: white presenting, male, educated, wealthy enough to own computers and smartphones, natural born citizen, in state resident, fluent in the dominant languages.

[Sabretooth78 808]

As a licensed civil engineer with a job that's 90% desk work, I don't consider myself white collar nor do I consider engineering a white collar career (civil, industrial and a few others in particular).  It's something of a hybrid because you need a good foundation of book knowledge to get anywhere, but at the same time you need to have blue collar "street smarts" as well.  Most of us don't, honestly, nor do I profess to be the best at it myself.  Like engineering as a whole, it's an incremental learning process, and even if you did figure it out once before, it's probably out of date by now.  It's not a career path for those who don't like to have to continually learn how to do your job.

It's also similar to the idea that engineering can be as much art as science.  It's like herding cats, err, managing a SC4 plugins folder - many right ways to do it, and more wrong ways to do it.

It's also funny, because I often do have to go out and stand out on a job somewhere be it to deliver something or to cover for an inspector.  I feel positively useless just standing there watching, but well, it's what I'm assigned to do.  You just have to try to stay out of the way.  Some workers will joke about it, but I'll always say it's a heck of a lot more interesting for me to watch them work than it would be for one of them to come to the office and watch me work.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I love work.  I could watch it for hours.

By the way, what's the definition of a millennial?  If it is someone born after 2000 most of them are not yet out of secondary school.  If you mean people who used to be called 'generation screwed' we know that the screwee and the screwor are one and the same.

[rivit 3,391]

I wonder, when we fall over the line into 2050 - well, assuming I can at 96 -, what the "millennials" feel will need to be corrected in the record about now...

The advantage of removing history's symbols and remnants is that you can thereafter ignore its lessons. I'm sure there are many forms of mastery and slavery today.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I am presently reading the diaries of a slave owning man with much privilege. You may be surpris'd to know that said gentleman is still honor'd in several places to this day.

His name be George Washington.

I think we can safely agree that it would be more trouble than it is worth to try to erase this gentleman from history. Unless you feel the American capital should be renamed Obama.

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

" ... And let the name of Moses be effaced from all monuments, stele, and obelisks ..." -- Seti I in De Mille's The Ten Commandments.

Revisionism is often misguided by wrong thinking, and often goes too far even if the basic premises are correct.  This squabble of the the semantics of 'master' is a good example.

Did anyone remember that the proper title for a minor scion of a family has the polite title of Master to be used in formal announcements?  E.g. at a very formal dinner the concierge would announce "Mr. Donald Bates and Master Bates." in rather stentorian tones.

[Sabretooth78 808]

I suppose the title "Master of Ceremonies" will have to be rethought as well.  We'll have to think of another acronym to replace "Emcee".

And don't forget Masters Degree holders.  Bunch of racists, them.

You say those last two forgoing examples are ridiculous and carrying the thing too far, and they are.  The problem is, there WILL be somebody to become offended by those; somebody WILL go that far and farther.

It's funny, my wife recently was prescribed an inhaler and on the box it literally reads "This is a white product."  Now I know it has to mean something else, but I couldn't keep myself from holding it up and mentioning that it sounded like the prescription drug community is practicing apartheid.  Well, actually, they kind of are - just not in a racial sense.

12 hours ago, rivit said:

The advantage of removing history's symbols and remnants is that you can thereafter ignore its lessons. I'm sure there are many forms of mastery and slavery today.

It has been argued that the current world financial system has rendered us all slaves.  I would also argue that instead of "freedom and independence" as it is so often referenced to, automobile ownership (especially in North America where it is almost a requirement) is also a form of slavery.  Another possible subversion of terms in today's discourse.  And of course, if you control language, you also hold significant control over thoughts.

[Snugies 91]

American History doesn't fit with the modern age. All the old traditions are from a slave society of oppression. these will be torn down. this is just another example. the question is how far will this New Order in America go? when will they stop? how much of the American tradition represents this slave society and will need to be torn down? the protestors stomp on the flag does the American flag represent oppression and slavery too? the American currency is not multicultural is that the next victim? the new order will win best you be accepting the fact.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^^ Quite right.  Insisting on 'political correctness' is a form of oppression.  Language changes due to the dynamic character of the civil society.  I am not sure it needs any (political) coaches carping from the side lines, but gadflies are necessary in the same way that court jesters (flappers) were necessary for medieval kings.

^ How is the Star Spangled Banner a symbol of oppression?  If it had a union jack in the upper quadrant in place of the stars, I could agree with you.  You'll notice that, once we became truly independent of Westminster we got a new flag (the Maple Leaf).  I think the United States psyche spends too much time with its past of slavery when in fact slave-owning at that time was a world-wide thing.  Too much self-flagellation leads to permanent injury, and it really feels good when you stop.

What you really need is to stop the racism going on whatever the basis.  There should be no hyphenated Americans.  I think we've done a very good job of eliminating the idea of hyphenated Canadians, so feel free to use us as a rather poor example.

Iconoclasm and History don't mix well.  You must not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Snugies 91]

I agree. But I think iconoclasm is a part of history. All historical famous americans are slave owning old white men. If you are not an part of that what does American history mean to you? they spoke of freedom when they were slave owners? All the American iconary/imagery/ideology is from a slave owning past. How can some americans feel apart of a tradition like that, so isn't this is why they rebel against it? Canada much less so, as we don't have the iconary/imagery/ideology America has, so its much easier for us to adapt and change. Not insulting to Canada. I think any Canadian who has been out of the country observes that we don't have as intense nationalistic beliefs most other nations have. Which in this day and age of globalization and destruction of national boundaries we are quite lucky.