Sometimes Looting carries its own Reward.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Locals were syphoning fuel from the wreck.

I don't care how poor these people are, this is a case of looting, and it seems to have solved itself.

[Wiimeiser 444]

Wow, 170 killed instantly in a fuel explosion? That can't be right.

[Sabretooth78 808]

Sounds like some more Darwin Award nominees to add to an already crowded field.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Well I can see basic human empathy is in short supply around here. 

Yeah yeah, its easy to judge 'looters' in the poorest country on the planet, when you sit in a nice comfortable home, with all your basic necessities provided to you, in a place where law and order are the norm. 

[Sabretooth78 808]

People are the greatest cause of problems affecting people.  Somewhow I've become detached over the years and I know it's not right but on the other hand, I don't really care.

I just watched somebody with Florida plates try to park a Ford Expedition in a mostly empty parking lot and struggle to do so.  She was sitting diagonal across the lines, head hanging out the window, trying to align it.  After I had parked, I noticed a man on the other side (presumably her passenger) trying to guide her as well.  She made it look as difficult as parallel parking the Titanic.

Seriously, right or wrong, I have largely given up on people.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

People rush into dangerous situations thinking only of themselves and any benefit they may accrue.  Looting is illegal everywhere, and looters are generally shot when caught red-handed.  We depend on the law to operate our civilization, and stepping outside the pale is dangerous and often fatal.  I don't care how poor and deprived you are, lawlessness is inexcusable.  What was going on was theft, pure and simple.

[LexusInfernus 908]

People rush into dangerous situations thinking only of themselves and any benefit they may accrue.  Looting is illegal everywhere, and looters are generally shot when caught red-handed.  We depend on the law to operate our civilization, and stepping outside the pale is dangerous and often fatal.  I don't care how poor and deprived you are, lawlessness is inexcusable.  What was going on was theft, pure and simple.

One, looters aren't "generally shot when caught red-handed". Two, you are talking about the poorest country on earth, which at the moment is also going through a civil war, depending on the law there doesn't get you anywhere. Three, even if you feel that there is no excuse under any circumstance to break the law, it doesn't mean people deserve to end up dead because of it.  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

People rush into dangerous situations thinking only of themselves and any benefit they may accrue.  Looting is illegal everywhere, and looters are generally shot when caught red-handed.  We depend on the law to operate our civilization, and stepping outside the pale is dangerous and often fatal.  I don't care how poor and deprived you are, lawlessness is inexcusable.  What was going on was theft, pure and simple.

One, looters aren't "generally shot when caught red-handed". Two, you are talking about the poorest country on earth, which at the moment is also going through a civil war, depending on the law there doesn't get you anywhere. Three, even if you feel that there is no excuse under any circumstance to break the law, it doesn't mean people deserve to end up dead because of it.  

On this topic, we will never see eye to eye.  I am probably three generations or more removed from your gentler outlook.  I come from an era where bad behaviour was treated harshly.  All the subsequent philosophy of gentility and reasonableness has grown up since I was in school.  I am appalled by some of the results.  The worst of our civilization is the license that many people, Americans especially, take with the concepts of freedom. 

Freedom isn't free.  It must be guarded assiduously all the time, and that includes paying close attention to those who would set up a tyranny like the one in the U.S.  Right now, the laissez faire political systems around the world are getting us deeper and deeper into an irrecoverable decadence.

[AkemiAzula 280]

While if anything I am for more discipline and respect for authority I do not see anything wrong with looting.

I suppose that makes me inconsistent.

I also think opportunism can't be too harshly frowned upon in a world of finite resources where just getting by is hard for many.

I think wrecks are fair game like abandoned buildings, ruined cities, etc. Then again I am the sort who doesn't believe in inheritance or being born into a class

[Odainsaker 2,134]

I'm with LexusInfernus on this one...I'm having a hard time seeing how almost two hundred people being gorily blown apart or horribly burned alive is supposed to be a deservedly just reward or solution for the petty crime, albeit incredibly risky, of desperately stealing gasoline from a wreck.  That people are reduced to such squalid desperation, with such tanker truck explosion massacres reportedly being common, is not a sign to me of how death-deservingly criminal those people are, but of how seriously bad circumstances have become in astonishingly impoverished South Sudan, where over 2 million people in the poorest country in Africa have been turned into war refugees.  Darwin Awards are the least of concerns for the victims' families.

 

[LexusInfernus 908]

On this topic, we will never see eye to eye.  I am probably three generations or more removed from your gentler outlook.  I come from an era where bad behaviour was treated harshly.  All the subsequent philosophy of gentility and reasonableness has grown up since I was in school.  I am appalled by some of the results.  The worst of our civilization is the license that many people, Americans especially, take with the concepts of freedom. 

Freedom isn't free.  It must be guarded assiduously all the time, and that includes paying close attention to those who would set up a tyranny like the one in the U.S.  Right now, the laissez faire political systems around the world are getting us deeper and deeper into an irrecoverable decadence.

I'm pretty sure that back when you were a kid people didn't get executed for stealing. We have to go several centuries back for that to be the standard punishment. And back then death was the standard punishment for lots of things. I am however quite sure that the current justice system is a significant improvement over such a medieval punishment system. 

Furthermore, we are not talking about America or Americans here. What happens in America is completely irrelevant to the discussion about what happens in South Sudan. And the laissez faire political systems are also not applicable to South Sudan, which is as we speak tearing itself apart in a civil war between two tribes. There is no political system to speak off, its simple anarchy resulting from the lack of stable state institutions. What you call decadence I call crushing absolute poverty set in a background of political instability and a complete lack of the rule of law. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Not to push the point, I refer you to American prisoners of the Wehrmacht in Dresden during WW II.

As for being horribly burned while looting a fuel truck, all it would take was one spark, or even a smoker.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Not to push the point, I refer you to American prisoners of the Wehrmacht in Dresden during WW II.

As for being horribly burned while looting a fuel truck, all it would take was one spark, or even a smoker.

What do they have to do with a fuel truck exploding in South Sudan?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

A historical point.  Happened in my lifetime, if not yours.

[Sabretooth78 808]

As for being horribly burned while looting a fuel truck, all it would take was one spark, or even a smoker.

Hence my comment about Darwin Awards.  I'd love some free gas myself, but I'm not about to visit the nearest overturned tanker truck.  You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that such is not a safe situation and it's very likely to go 'boom' if somebody messes with it the wrong way.

While I do agree that what amounts to essential execution for [we'll assume for sake of argument] first offense looting is a tad harsh, I would also like to reference the societal decline that Nonny mentioned.  I have thought about the same on many occasions, and I know enough to know I'm not smart enough to know the right answer.  The fact of the matter is that coddling these people (or anybody, or anything for that matter) has never yielded an acceptable result, either.  Sooner or later, somebody is going to have to be made an example of for the greater populace to learn that Newton's Third Law applies to more than just physics - or we'll all just have to passively accept that the effective end of civilization will eventually be upon us not long after we continue sliding down the slope.

Granted, I'm usually thinking about all of this in the sense of horrible driving, but I think it can just as easily be applied across a greater spectrum.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Funny what 70 odd years of relative peace in the world will do.  We are becoming more and more decadent, and many are feeling that they are 'entitled' to feel that way.  Before the end of WW II, the idea of a 3000 sq. ft. house with a three car garage (with three cars) was unthinkable for most.  Now it seems the "middle" class feels entitled to perks and wealth that were totally out of reach in 1946.

The retooling of American and other manufacturers after the war into consumer goods started the current inflation spiral, and we've never been able to properly cope with it.  Now the economic machine is starting to shake itself to pieces, and the resulting mess will be interesting indeed.  Ask any engineer what happens to a machine with a positive feedback loop.

[MushyMushy 3,617]

I must agree that killing somebody over some piece of non-living property is highly ridiculous and barbaric. It's one thing if the thief is actually trying to hurt people in the process, but I believe that a decent percentage of people who steal are simply very poor. Those particular thieves don't have any desire to physically hurt people. While of course stealing is a crime and it should be punished, it's not something worth killing somebody over. It's something they get arrested for and do a relatively short amount of jail time for (depends on the theft obviously). Killing thieves is also not the norm, even in the trigger-happy US. As far as I'm aware, the law in most places here is that you're not allowed to try and kill somebody unless you're afraid of them trying to cause you harm. The looters that looted several stores during the various protests in the past year were not executed, and I have a feeling they weren't nearly as desperate as the people in Syria. The looters here probably did so simply because they were mad and they wanted to do it - not because they actually needed the supplies to live or escape or anything like that. The people in Syria are desperate for their lives.

---

I do believe the people with 3 car garages and 3 cars to fill them (possibly more) are usually thought of as the upper middle class. To many people of the middle class this seems unthinkable, wasteful, and something that the wealthy have/do. A good bit of the middle class has plenty of things they might want (but don't need) that they can't get, and there are quite a few of them that have to watch their money as they could easily slip into poverty if something unexpected happened. If you want to look at a time where the middle class got to have a relatively nice living (2 cars, a well-built house, trips, a number of kids) off of one average job (a lot of the mid to upper middle class nowadays either has a more skilled worker in the house or two people working), go look at the 50's and 60's.

[Odainsaker 2,134]

Not only cigarettes, but some reports say rebel insurgents, police guards, or even both were shooting at the scene.  Certainly, going to siphon petrol from a tanker wreck while cigarettes and gunfire are about is risking suicide, especially as such wreck explosions killing large numbers of people have repeatedly happened there before.  Under normal circumstances, converging on such a wreck indeed would be called stupid.  However, these are not normal circumstances--these villagers living along the highway scavenging what little they can have been reduced to such desperation that in weighing their own danger, the little petrol they siphoned was worth risking the loss of two hundred of their own lives.  It has been worth it to them in the past, and will continue to be worth it to them in the future, and the reality that human beings are having to make that kind of a choice and die for it is a sign of just how bad things are there.

For many, their clinging to life in a shanty on the side of a South Sudanese highway to scavenge what little comes by is all the life they have, and that is a type of marginalization that I don't think any of us can truly understand.  The ugly idea that there is "biological trash" or "human trash" or animals needing to be taught harsh lessons may be to most of us twisted and horrific, yet the ugly reality is that there are vast populations on the fringes of what we think as modern civilization that have essentially been reduced to such and are often easily dismissed and even disposed of as such.  Looting villagers being incinerated en masse while other impoverished villages are massacred by the next fundamentalist militia, roving paramilitary, or child slavers is the world they are trapped in, while at the other end, our world is to make comfortable commentary of on a SimCity game internet board about making harsh examples to prevent some civilizational decline.  Casting down more harsh examples is not going to change their lot, as they already live in and die in the harshest examples everyday, and it hasn't brought them in from the margins or helped them escape their hopeless world.  Neither Ferguson nor Baltimore, for all their real problems, are South Sudan or Syria.  Those unwanted refugee families streaming into Europe through the barbed wires of the Balkans or in unseaworthy deathtraps across the Mediterranean with nothing left but the clothes on their backs are actually the fortunate ones.  If we want to rescue Western Civilization, then we need to rescue the nightmare world exploding on its fringes.

 

[LexusInfernus 908]

Funny what 70 odd years of relative peace in the world will do.  We are becoming more and more decadent, and many are feeling that they are 'entitled' to feel that way.  Before the end of WW II, the idea of a 3000 sq. ft. house with a three car garage (with three cars) was unthinkable for most.  Now it seems the "middle" class feels entitled to perks and wealth that were totally out of reach in 1946.

The retooling of American and other manufacturers after the war into consumer goods started the current inflation spiral, and we've never been able to properly cope with it.  Now the economic machine is starting to shake itself to pieces, and the resulting mess will be interesting indeed.  Ask any engineer what happens to a machine with a positive feedback loop.

Honestly as a member of the middle class I can't say I feel 'entitled' to three cars in three garages. Honestly I feel more than one car would be an excessive waste. 

And anyways, all that talk about how Americans feel entitled to everything has very little basis in fact. Americans work almost all year through, the number of vacation days is appallingly low and a lot of them don't even take those vacation days. Americans are hard working people, to accuse them of 'entitlement' is doing them a huge disservice. And I think its generally a Fox News talking point and usually is code for 'don't you dare complain about your lot in life and be happy with the scraps we feed you'. 

And once again, how is any of that relevant to some of the poorest people living in the poorest nation on the planet which is also wrecked by civil war and political instability. Are they entitled because they want something as basic as 'fuel'? 

  Edited September 20, 2015 by LexusInfernus  

[krbe 193]

Funny what 70 odd years of relative peace in the world will do.  [...]  Now the economic machine is starting to shake itself to pieces [...]

Funny how 70 odd years of relative peace makes it difficult to understand that a country like South Sudan is not exactly a beacon of civilisation and law. I'd consider it a crime if you did not make arrangements just because middle class Canadians could resort to a reasonably impartial and corruption-free court.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Funny what 70 odd years of relative peace in the world will do.  [...]  Now the economic machine is starting to shake itself to pieces [...]

Funny how 70 odd years of relative peace makes it difficult to understand that a country like South Sudan is not exactly a beacon of civilisation and law. I'd consider it a crime if you did not make arrangements just because middle class Canadians could resort to a reasonably impartial and corruption-free court.

There is a poem by Rudyard Kipling called Fuzzy-Wuzzy about the British wars in the Sudan in the 19th century.  It appears that, oil fortunes notwithstanding the Sudan is as divided as ever, and just about as poor.  When the British pulled out after WW II, the whole thing collapsed back into unsustainable tribalism, and one really can't expect anything any different.  The poor we will always have with us.  A culture of theft is part of being poor.  Jean Valjean's are very rare indeed.

Seems a high birthrate and poverty go hand in hand.  Especially when life is short, dark and ugly.  We can't feed all those mouths, nor can be educate the unwilling.

[krbe 193]

That I think we can agree on. Tribalism, differences over religion, and a general inability to reconcile and focus on sustainable, strong institutions will keep Sudan down for years to come.

Do the West have anything to contribute? No. For starters, as long as Western governments start with human rights demands no one cares to listen, as long as they can afford guns (then let's stop the flow of guns, you say? Arms control will forever only be an inconvenience, not a tool). Western companies are no longer an option either, as they will be barred from engaging in corrupt practices -- their size makes it possible for them to say no in Africa, and in Europe the public outcry would be terrible.

So, our sensitive stomachs and in particular the American fear of terrorism keeps the only instrument understood -- money -- out, replaced by Chinese and Malaysian investors which do not share the same qualms over corruption or terrorism (however not to forget the French, which seems to have an amazingly good relationship with post-colonial Africa. I'm looking at you, Total).

So there you have it. I thoroughly believe the West have something to contribute, but only if we can manage to get back to the days where governments, businesses and activists were able to contain complex and coherent thought processes. These days we're practically giving the world away to Chinese, Eastern/South East Asian and in some instances Latin American companies and institutions because of our fear of associating with those who are not like us.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ An indictment of western decadence and a clear statement of the success of terrorism in the U.S.  Recent events like the school-clock incident, show just how successful the terrorists are.

There is no helping the Fuzzy-Wuzzy because we can't help ourselves.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

The majority of the problems in Africa and West Asia were caused by European empires using divide and conquer colonization. The modern borders have not changed since WWII. Really, if the USA kept out of WWI, it would have been a local conflict that only affected Europeans and the winners might have been different as well. Anyway, I cannot feel any empathy or sympathy for suicidal thiefs. Nor will I ever see eye to eye with any 21st century Liberals of developed countries.

[Linoa06 1,374]

The majority of the problems in Africa and West Asia were caused by European empires using divide and conquer colonization. The modern borders have not changed since WWII. Really, if the USA kept out of WWI, it would have been a local conflict that only affected Europeans and the winners might have been different as well. Anyway, I cannot feel any empathy or sympathy for suicidal thiefs. Nor will I ever see eye to eye with any 21st century Liberals of developed countries.

Tell Indians and South Africans or anyone under British rule about that "local conflict that only affected Europeans".

[Sabretooth78 808]

The majority of the problems in Africa and West Asia were caused by European empires using divide and conquer colonization. The modern borders have not changed since WWII. Really, if the USA kept out of WWI, it would have been a local conflict that only affected Europeans and the winners might have been different as well. Anyway, I cannot feel any empathy or sympathy for suicidal thiefs. Nor will I ever see eye to eye with any 21st century Liberals of developed countries.

Tell Indians and South Africans or anyone under British rule about that "local conflict that only affected Europeans".

He did preface that statement with an 'if'.  Speculation for sure, and am sure the real truth lies somewhere in the middle as it usually does.  Just that to achieve the right middle, some people have to pull harder in the opposite direction.  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Marco, if you want to speculate, just think what would have happened to the United States if Wendell Wilkie had been elected instead of FDR.  The German-American Bund was well established by then.  I think you would be speaking German or breathing cyanide.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Perhaps you did not read what I typed correctly. If the United States did not side with the WWI Allied Powers, they would have suffered more losses, possibly to the point of stalemate or loss. The Nazis could not have taken power in a strong and stable Germany. Also, part of the Russian Revolution was fueled by the aftermath of WWI. The two superpowers of the 2nd half of the 20th Century would be vastly different if the USA and Russian Empire kept out of WWI.

 

Back to the topic at hand, the USA once again is making things worse by providing supplies that can be used to worsen things to regions that are already unstable. Much of the problems in Africa and West Asia would not have escalated as far if we had not funded anyone there.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Just a quick note.  The Russian revolution of 1917 would have happened no matter what was happening with Germany.  It was an idea whose time had come, and it occurred before the end of WW 1.

The main proximate cause of WW II (including the rise of the NAZIs) was caused by the clauses insisted on by the French in the Treaty of Versailles which impoverished Germany.  The question of the American presence in WW I is moot.  They were not really much of a tipping force as U.S. propaganda would make you think.

Back on topic:  Looting a fuel truck has its own risks and rewards.  Often decided by the Laws of Evolution.  The number of killed and injured indicates that what was really going on could be called a riot.

[Linoa06 1,374]

The majority of the problems in Africa and West Asia were caused by European empires using divide and conquer colonization. The modern borders have not changed since WWII. Really, if the USA kept out of WWI, it would have been a local conflict that only affected Europeans and the winners might have been different as well. Anyway, I cannot feel any empathy or sympathy for suicidal thiefs. Nor will I ever see eye to eye with any 21st century Liberals of developed countries.

Tell Indians and South Africans or anyone under British rule about that "local conflict that only affected Europeans".

He did preface that statement with an 'if'.  Speculation for sure, and am sure the real truth lies somewhere in the middle as it usually does.  Just that to achieve the right middle, some people have to pull harder in the opposite direction.  

Well, not really. The British Empire was the British Empire and every territory was expected to pull their weight when the UK were at war. They got dragged into a war that did not concern them not because of the US (which at the time was not a meddling superpower as it became post WW2) but because they were a territory of the UK.  Remember, the fall of the British Empire happened -after- WW2. During WW1 it was near its strongest. The US factor is absolutely irrelevant as far as British territories (and imperialism) were concerned.

Now whether the entry of the US into war tipped the balance, well, I think it did help break the tipping point in Europe by bringing in fresh troops and equipment against a struggling Germany who held her own until then, though I would also attribute that to other advances in warfare that occured at about the same time.

As the French have it, with enough "ifs" you could put Paris in a bottle.