At a crossroads with SC and CS - need advice (which to stay with)

[Cryptec 0]

Hello Fellow Mayors,

 

It has been a long time since I really got into playing a SimCity (feel like a total $%&^!), but have played Sim2K on up to SC2013 (playing on a Mac now).  I really got into SC4 and was really excited for the release of SC2013, but the server issues stopped me from playing further.  Now that I have the time and wanting to emerge into city building again I am now at a crossroads of the following programs and seeing advice from those with way more knowledge in the genre.

 

SC4

SC2013

CS

 

I have been for the past several days been beating my head against the desk with all the forum discussions between all the three mentioned games.  I grew up playing Maxis SC games and a shame they no longer exist, at least their former selves.  What it boils down to is SC2013 or CS, I have a hard time letting go of the SC series and being a diehard fans pits against how long EA will keep the SC servers up and future of the game.  Where as CS seems to be more like SC4 (to a degree) and coming out on a solid foundation which to grow and expand.  Question is will the fans/gamers except and embrace the series for the long haul?  

 

     Of the better knowledge players should I play and stay with SC2013, go with CS and don’t look back or purchase the SC4 app?  Sorry if I am beating the dead horse as others have, but really at a crossroads and have a difficult time of which series to stay with, especially when I have enjoyed the SC series and hate to see it die off.

 

Regards,

 

Crypt

 

PS:  Sorry if I frustrated anyone on this topic again, but I have just started out again.  I am excited to get back into city building/managing and make new friends along the way.  Hope to see you in game!

[Indiana Joe 1,751]

CS looks to be the future, but it will be a changing landscape as bugs come and go, expansions come out and the modding community develops.  SC4 is ready to go with everything it needs, you just have to find it all and install it.  It has a huge amount of quality mods, the modding community is still active, and we've figured out the game front to back; but in the future Skylines will become the focus of city building and modding.

 

The newer SimCity never really took off, it does have some mods, but the online quality (one of the main unique advantages) has a limited lifespan (only as long as EA keeps the servers up).  Most in the community tend to agree that it's a dead-end game.  Some still play, but I think few would advise you to buy it at this point if you don't already have it.

[copper121212 23]

Skylines. SC4 is a good game but graphically it is over a decade old and it shows. SC4 is more evolved as far as mods go but they are a pain in the ass to wrap your head around (especially if you are starting out fresh) and many of them are tedious to work with (NAM). The mods in CSL are a breeze, one click, done! The game itself is reminiscent of the old Maxis games so I wouldn't worry about that.

SC2013 isn't deserving of this discussion.

[Rufus Honker IV 100]

Does Skylines play like SC2013?  (I don't mean "is it better?", I mean "are the gameplay and controls similar?") 

 

I've never played a Skylines game, but have played every Simcity.  

[rmjohnson144 42]

Hello Fellow Mayors,

 

It has been a long time since I really got into playing a SimCity (feel like a total $%&^!), but have played Sim2K on up to SC2013 (playing on a Mac now).  I really got into SC4 and was really excited for the release of SC2013, but the server issues stopped me from playing further.  Now that I have the time and wanting to emerge into city building again I am now at a crossroads of the following programs and seeing advice from those with way more knowledge in the genre.

 

SC4

SC2013

CS

 

I have been for the past several days been beating my head against the desk with all the forum discussions between all the three mentioned games.  I grew up playing Maxis SC games and a shame they no longer exist, at least their former selves.  What it boils down to is SC2013 or CS, I have a hard time letting go of the SC series and being a diehard fans pits against how long EA will keep the SC servers up and future of the game.  Where as CS seems to be more like SC4 (to a degree) and coming out on a solid foundation which to grow and expand.  Question is will the fans/gamers except and embrace the series for the long haul?  

 

     Of the better knowledge players should I play and stay with SC2013, go with CS and don’t look back or purchase the SC4 app?  Sorry if I am beating the dead horse as others have, but really at a crossroads and have a difficult time of which series to stay with, especially when I have enjoyed the SC series and hate to see it die off.

 

I see no reason why you can have them all. lol. Just watch for steam sales. They have them on sale every few months or so.  SC4 is a little dated, but has everything under the sun for it.  SC13 has an awesome agent system, but horrible bugs and lots of workarounds with small maps (2km x 2km).  It is a fast game, but isn't so bad as it plays more like an actual game.  Skylines is new.  It has it's share of bugs.  It has a higher system requirements to play.  Very similar to sc4.

 

Does Skylines play like SC2013?  (I don't mean "is it better?", I mean "are the gameplay and controls similar?") 

 

I've never played a Skylines game, but have played every Simcity.

Skylines is more like SC4 than anything. It has no where near the complex agent system that sc13 has. Maybe they'll add more agent systems once they debug the game 100%. Hopefully they can add them soon. Starting to get bored with skylines. It plays too much like a map maker than a game, like sc13 was. If you didn't manage sc13 properly, it would burn to the ground. Skyline just gives warnings and unpops cims that get stuck in traffic.

Skyline also doesn't have a 24hr day/night cycle. No morning/even rush hour traffic. They just work 24/7. You hardly even see cims in the game. Most of it is just industry tractor trucks or regular delivery trucks.

Skylines needs city specialization badly (casino, mining, oil drilling, culture, etc.) It is just constantly zoning and rezoning RCI.

Good news, is skylines had over 13k mods in the first week. So modders are constantly adding new things to the game. It also has a nice modding interface in game, plus steam workshop for easy installation/removal of mods. It definitely has huge future potential.

[iviaarten 534]

I'm just curious what is so amazingly complex about the agent system in SC2013? To me it seems like a really stupid agent system actually.

 

Sim wakes up, goes to the building closest to him that needs a worker, kisses his wife goodbye, and goes to work. When the work day is over, he goes to the closest available house (not the one he left the same morning), says hello to a brand new wife, apparently now has some new kids as well, and the next day the cycle repeats. A new house, job and family every day.

[Cryptec 0]

Thanks for the advice and I'll be getting Cities: Skylines for the Mac!  Looking forward to the great times ahead, modding and making friends.

 

Thanks again,

 

Crypt

[rmjohnson144 42]

I'm just curious what is so amazingly complex about the agent system in SC2013? To me it seems like a really stupid agent system actually.

 

Sim wakes up, goes to the building closest to him that needs a worker, kisses his wife goodbye, and goes to work. When the work day is over, he goes to the closest available house (not the one he left the same morning), says hello to a brand new wife, apparently now has some new kids as well, and the next day the cycle repeats. A new house, job and family every day.

 

Actually I think it is a very smart system,  Considering the whole game runs on a single agent system.  It was poorly coded in 32-bit and single threaded.  With those limitations it was a sensible decision.  

 

I mean look at skylines.  The sims have a certain house and a certain job, but they couldn't make the simulation run in a 24 cycle that SC13 does.  It simulates morning and even rush hours.  

 

Skylines seems to have workers on 24/7 shifts or random irrational hours.  It would be very difficult to have sims traveling very long distances unable to keep a real job because it would never realistically get to their job on time.  I'm sure CO quickly found out the huge difficulties of sims living in the same house and made several sacrifices to make the game work like it does.

 

SC13 has several more sims types being simulated which gives the game a more life like feel.  Skylines feels like sc4 with the fake traffic that looks more like its for show.  In fact, the game seems more like CiM than a simcity game and it even fails in that department with too heavy traffic causing vehicles to disappear, which makes it harder to see the real issues you are having.  SC13 would let your city burn to the ground.  although I did request several times to the developers in dev-test to make difficulty level in game and let traffic disappear to make it easier for beginners.  instead of having only expert mode.

 

To me, it's less about how the agents are represented than how the game plays.  SC13 plays like a game that has real consequences for poor mayoral skills.  Skylines seems to be just a mapmaker with a few annoying rules slowing you down.  

 

so I can live with the stupid agents then have stupid non 24 city cycles (rush hours are a very good early indicator of you have something wrong), traffic disappearing (Gives you a false sense of traffic/city design is fine), not to mention all the city service, utilities, specializations, etc

 

so long story short, SC13 feels like a game, skylines feels like a map maker program.

 

In the long run, I think skylines will become more than Simcity, mainly because EA has abandoned the franchise, well destroyed the franchise may be a better word..

 

but if you don't play SC13 because of stupid agents, you are missing out on a real great game (minus the small maps, insane bugs, and a ton of workarounds.  lol)

 

Thanks for the advice and I'll be getting Cities: Skylines for the Mac!  Looking forward to the great times ahead, modding and making friends.

 

Thanks again,

 

Crypt

 

Be prepared for tons of issues and maybe unplayable completely.  There are tons of issues with the Mac and Linux ports.

 

I wish you luck

-=Mark=-

[Indiana Joe 1,751]

Thanks for the advice and I'll be getting Cities: Skylines for the Mac!  Looking forward to the great times ahead, modding and making friends.

 

Thanks again,

 

Crypt

 

You do want to watch out if you're on a Mac.  There's a few commonly reported bugs, be sure to research those first.  Might want to wait for a patch.  Compared to SC2013 at launch however I'd say the game is nearly flawless technically.

 

It also has considerably higher system requirements than SC4 and SC.  You average work laptop won't make the cut.

[Agente Silva 28]

Try to find Skylines in cheap, because it really is a cheap game... you´ll see... it´s more like SimCity 4, with less challenge. It´s a stretch and zone game. Once you stop doing it the city stops growing. I got extremely borred with Skylines after 10 days playing. Graphics are horrendous, almost like a 10 year old game... Some audio files are extremely annoying (like the pedestrian traffic light sound and the ambulance/police car sounds), making it very hard to zoom in and enjoy the view

 

Don´t believe the hype...

[Cryptec 0]

Thanks again, for all the information!  After digging/searching a bit found out that since I bought and played SC5 (SC2013) on my PC when 1st released I can install it on my mac.  Second, CS will run fine on my mac as it is above the recommended requirements.  Third my wife a while ago and recently found an iTunes gift card....I could buy SC4 if needed.  LOL, best of all three!

 

Now searching to figure out what is a great mod software for generating building/structures for CS, was looking at Unity 5....still looking!  Thinking about designing Observatories (I'm big into Astronomy/Astrophotography), Lighthouses and haunted houses/cemeteries.

[Agente Silva 28]

Cities:Skylines is animated city builder, not a "simulation" city builder. Skylines feels like playing a refurbished Simcity4. If the modding community don´t develop some good mods to change some core aspects of the game, it will loose interest very quickly. You can see several people commenting in steam´s forums some aspects they miss from Simcity5 so I won´t be surprised if in one year or so no one is talking about Skylines.

 

To me Simcity 5 works like a charm and I still have much to experiment with it. I am now realizing that you can actually do a residential city only, providing workers for 2 more cities. There are 3 or 4 mods that simply extend game´s life in 2 years, in my opinion - I always play in turtle mode I can name those mods - BoC; RCI mod; Regional sidewalks

 

Actually, I´ve been having so much fun with Simcity5 that I´m going to buy some DLC´s soon (Airships and Amusement park). Maybe CoT as well...   I play Simcity 5 since march 2013, resisted the dark ages but didn´t quit on the game!

[Gregorfp 15]

sc2013 has alrealdy been ditched by its manufacturer... no support, no patches nor updates. This simulator (that simulates worst than the so called spreadsheet sc4) will no more be upgraded and no major dlc shall be available...

[Marla_Singer 46]

I mean look at skylines. The sims have a certain house and a certain job, but they couldn't make the simulation run in a 24 cycle that SC13 does. It simulates morning and even rush hours.

First thing, if you like SC2013 more than CSL, that's good for you. To each their own as we often say.

However, I'm simply correcting this specific point because it's just not true. Colossal knew perfectly how to manage an agent-based simulation based on a 24 hours cycle, they did so in CIM2. They've actually chosen to not do it in CSL, because it actually brings more harm than good. And having played the game, I actually fully agree with their choice.

The reason for that is that considering the very large size of maps, simulated traffic actually takes several minutes in order to cross the whole city. Hence you would need your 24 hours cycle to run very slowly to have people getting at the office before it's time to leave back home. In CIM2, that was 24 minutes, but it turned out to be too short. Meanwhile, your rush hours only happened during specific slots that you had to wait for in order to see how your traffic is handled, then you had long minutes of total emptyness during night time. That turned out to be just dull.

Overall, the continuous time from CIM1 worked a lot better and was much funnier, as you could directly experiment tweaks on your traffic and see the impact. I'm personally glad this has been taken back in CSL. And sorry to say, but you get much more convincing traffic flows with continuous time and fixed jobs and houses for your cims, then in having sims going to the first available house.

Now once again, if you have fun with your game and I do as well with mine, then everyone's happy and that's all which matters.

[rmjohnson144 42]

I mean look at skylines. The sims have a certain house and a certain job, but they couldn't make the simulation run in a 24 cycle that SC13 does. It simulates morning and even rush hours.

First thing, if you like SC2013 more than CSL, that's good for you. To each their own as we often say.

Well, first thing, please don't put words in my mouth. I never made such a statement. iviaarten asked my my opinion on sc2013's agent system and did so. as I already stated, I just feel SC2013 is more game like, and CS more map maker like. They are two completely different game at this point in time.

However, I'm simply correcting this specific point because it's just not true. Colossal knew perfectly how to manage an agent-based simulation based on a 24 hours cycle, they did so in CIM2. They've actually chosen to not do it in CSL, because it actually brings more harm than good. And having played the game, I actually fully agree with their choice.

My point doesn't need correcting. It was a choice that was made by CO. They could have made 24 day/light cycles if they chose with zero harm. It would have taken extra resources/time to make work and rebalancing, but nothing too great.

The reason for that is that considering the very large size of maps, simulated traffic actually takes several minutes in order to cross the whole city. Hence you would need your 24 hours cycle to run very slowly to have people getting at the office before it's time to leave back home. In CIM2, that was 24 minutes, but it turned out to be too short.

Time is irrelevant. Maxis chose a 24 hour day to represent a whole month. There is no reason to not slow the game down to give extra time to traverse the whole map. which is 10km at most in CS. It is just a minor balancing issue to make it work. Given more time, they could easily make it work out with ease. I assume they'll do it one day. I thought the 24 hour day was awesome in sc2013. It really made the game feel more realistic.

Meanwhile, your rush hours only happened during specific slots that you had to wait for in order to see how your traffic is handled, then you had long minutes of total emptyness during night time. That turned out to be just dull.

I've never had time in sc2013 to sit idle for long. But it is nice knowing you had a good warning system you could see while playing and then you could monitor traffic and have an easier time correcting it. In CS traffic just disappears and you have no clues that anything is wrong as traffic just keeps flowing along smoothly. But in reality people are not making their destinations and have negative effects on your city in general. I think the hard mode mod is suppose to fix that. I haven't tried it yet as I'm still on my first game.

Overall, the continuous time from CIM1 worked a lot better and was much funnier, as you could directly experiment tweaks on your traffic and see the impact. I'm personally glad this has been taken back in CSL. And sorry to say, but you get much more convincing traffic flows with continuous time and fixed jobs and houses for your cims, then in having cims going to the first available house.

I'm afraid I don't follow you. Not sure what you mean by continuous time? I don't understand how cims having a designated house and a designated job to more convincing traffic flows. In real life it makes more sense to live very close to your job, which sc2013 always does on a daily basis, where CS may have a cim travel the whole map causing severe traffic issues. It can be fixed by adding cims being able to move if they can't make it to work, but they don't and just go abandoned. The stupid sims of sc2013 may be unrealistic, but for CS cims having fixed homes/jobs is pointless as no one keeps any kind of real tracking on them anyways. You get the same end result either way, but stupid sims would be easier on the system.

You also have less convincing traffic without the 24 hour cycle. Instead we end up with cims working 24/7 non stop. I think the 24 hour day cycle is a much more realistic and noticeable feature compared to stupid sims without fixed homes.

Now once again, if you have fun with your game and I do as well with mine, then everyone's happy and that's all which matters.

I agree. I like all of the city builders. I think this game has huge potential and it will probably turn more into sc2013 as time passes. It has a lot of great features that I'm sure will work well with this game. I'm still waiting for tourism to kick in for this game. They seem to have the linux/apple community going pretty good so they can focus on the core mechanics of the game. Can't wait for tunnels!

Don't forget to clear up my misunderstandings. I think it is good to throw ideas around to get the best game ;possible. I may talk more about 2013 than most, but a lot of people just dismissed the game because it was online, small maps, buggy, etc. Once you spend the time mastering 2013 you can realize the potential. Too bad EA focused on shutting the game down instead of fixing the glassbox engine. They probably could have fixed the whole game by now if they had tried to fix it.

Well, I gotta go now. I hurt my back earlier and took some pain killers and I'm starting to get a little dizzy, if you know what I mean. lol

-=Mark=-

[MagicChicken19 43]

Eh, C:S could simulate traffic better in general. They also purposefully de-densified the buildings (yeah, i just made up a word). They didn't do lane-changing well (which they're fixing), and the whole day/night thing does kinda suck for those who love rush hour. The whole thing feels like they were trying to back away from traffic concerns, because they didn't want to expose their poor traffic AI ... which is find still. Not everyone enjoys traffic simulation, they just wanna build a city, and that's cool. It just sucks, because why have all these cool road tools if you don't really get to push the challenge with them?

[Agente Silva 28]

Once you spend the time mastering 2013 you can realize the potential. Too bad EA focused on shutting the game down instead of fixing the glassbox engine. They probably could have fixed the whole game by now if they had tried to fix it...

 

Exactly this... I´ve always said "Simcity 2013 could be the first stone of a new Simcity era, instead of the last nail in the coffin". Too bad sales say exactly the opposite. I guess few are those who can see beyond what´s laying in front of their eyes. I bought Cities of Tomorrow and Amusement park set last week (for 15€) and can´t regret a tiny bit - and if you consider the possiblities opened by mods for CoT (MagLev as Subway; El Train) my Simcity longevity is promised for at least one more year.

 

Last night I was playing and realized the difference of product quality from Simcity and Skylines. The nuances created by Cities of Tomorrow expansion to the base game are so well balanced in terms of gameplay, added features, building reskin, even the soundtrack is beatifully tweaked adding a few more melodys and introducing new "technological" instruments as you CHOOSE to futurize your city (opposing to what I thought it allows you to futurize small areas of your city, leaving you to decide if you want to keep a classic look, mix it with some futurized building, or go all "tomorrow" on your city).

 

Simcity 2013 is a gemstone that needed a bit more polishing.

 

I wish EA would still consider a Simcity "comeback". You don´t simply let fall a game landmark like this.

 

Cities:Skylines doesn´t contribute in anything to take the city-builder genre to a "next level".

[craigibhoy 3]

Its not about whats better or that its about which you enjoy most.

[LivingInThePast 364]

I haven't played CS (need a new computer first) or SC2013, but for all of the faults of CS, it has the most potential. SC4 is old, and while it has many mods to extend it, they're not the easiest to use. SimCity 2013 had some good ideas, but poorly executed and looks to be a dead end as far as dev goes.