U.S. High Speed Rail

[Duke87 1,070]

Out of curiosity, what is the TSA screening airline passengers for?  (Considering, as has been said before, there is very little risk that a terrorist will attempt to hijack a plane and crash it into something.)

 

Ding ding ding ding ding! You just asked an excellent question! Yep, little risk of anyone doing anything, but dramatic spectacular effects on the slim chance someone does. All a bunch of expense and bother over a little paranoia.

 

(FYI, in the US at least, oil as a electricity generating source is effectively dead.  The EPA and environmental lobby effectively killed it.)

 

And if that hadn't done it escalating costs later would have. Coal has been cheaper for a while and within the past few years natural gas has become even cheaper than that.

[AcmeSigns 97]

All it takes for HSR to get the TSA treatment is for someone to blow something up and people complain that the government didn't do enough to stop this from happening.

 

Or what if someone were to hijack and train and drive it into a...uh...never mind.

Quite honestly, I doubt that it would take any sort of 'event' to bring the TSA into HSR. It would just be yet another case of the Government sticking it's nose in to make things 'better'.

[AkemiAzula 280]

In Wollongong there was a stop for Kembla Grange Racecourse and people had to tell the conductor if they were getting off there if it wasn't race day as there was not much else besides the race course there.

 

Well I for one would like to think that new technological improvements would improve comfort conditions in travel rather than impede them, and I think videoconferencing will become fairly standard. You can always sent robots to deal with on-site issues in the future.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The reason HSR will not likely become a sardine can is that the mechanism is expandable at much smaller cost.  You can add more cars to the train.  Can't stretch and airliner.

[AkemiAzula 280]

And trains aren't as expensive to make/maintain as aeroplanes I should think, although I've no solid data to support that. 

 

Back in Wollongong we had freight trains over a mile in length that went at, while obv not high speeds, a speed that would make me sweat on a pushbike, and the cars were full

[The Pennsylvania Turnpike 252]

I would like to see a HSR stop here in Allentown. I could be in Philly in 20 minutes!

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ OK.  How do you propose to pay for it?  How much of a tax hike are you willing to tolerate?

[TekindusT 3,809]

One of the things that has to happen if our civilization is to survive is to lose the sense of urgency.  All this rushing about is a major cause of circulatory disease and cardiac problems.  Notwithstanding the need to 'be there first' in sales situations, a lot of the face to face stuff can now be handled over the net.

 

Many corporations have found teleconferencing to be less than satisfactory.  Many won't trust major sales to phone/video calls, and some companies won't even trust important internal meetings to digital communications.  (I've personally seen a few individuals who were flown all of 250 miles just so the meeting could be conducted and the internal consultant could be back at the main office before the end of the work day.)

We're still away of the situation pointed by A Nonny Moose. As a former sales assistant, I know very well the significance of "this has to be ready for tomorrow" phrase, and I now how rushing things work because you cannot accomplish lead times. In plain words, industry works because the clients push the owner to have *whatever* ready as far as possible; the owner pushes the contractors, the contractors push the suppliers, the suppliers push their own suppliers and the transport, the other suppliers push their very own suppliers and the wheel goes on and on.

 

Very few things in industry are made with long-term plans, most of the things work in very short lead and delivery times, which makes the JIT and "rush, rush, rush" working scheme the current and mostly unchangeable paradigm.

 

And about handling sales on the net, well... The BIG business is made in face-to-face meetings and on restaurant tables, not on Skype. At least, this is how things work currently. Let Skype for the heads-up and order tracking.

In the end I think comfort will win over the sardine can.

 

At one time, air travel was regarded as the pinnacle of travel.  Fast, comfortable, you could smoke on the plane and they gave you drinks too.  Over time, we have gone from that to what we have today.  What objectively defensible reason is there to believe that train travel won't follow a similar progression?

Train and air travel have gone exactly contrary ways. During the 20th century, air travel was a pure luxury product, you could smoke cigars and drink Moët-Chandon champange on your way from London to NYC. But it kept being a product reserved for the ones who could afford it.

Nowadays, the sardine can approach is winning just because most of the travellers the only thing we want is to fly to a point A to a point B as cheap as possible, because we cannot afford the cost of travelling in Business Executive class. You can save the champange, I only want to get to my hometown the cheapest way. And the more sardines in the can, the cheaper it gets for each sardine.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Human comfort above all.  We are a wealthy civilization, so why do we descend to the packing plant when it comes to travel?  Urgency will kill us all.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Aye. It's about time we stopped all this profit-driven nonsense. It's madness. Not that I'm a communist although I used to believe in that stuff, but surely there is a better model than 'in, make huge profit quickly, out'...

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

A return to more genteel living would help take a lot of the lay about unemployed into service in households that could afford it.  You don't have to know a great deal to be a batman or a footman.  Usually employment of this nature is everything found and some pocket money (wages) besides to spend on your day off.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Well I would certainly approve a return to genteel living. However I am a believer in personal endeavour, in individual battling. I do not believe in inheritance through blood, but through employment. If I had a manor house and my sons and daughters were merry layabouts I'd give it to my sincere earnest butler and kick the sns and daughters out and send them to the colonies. 

 

The notion of class is a problem only because it was unfairly held and retained. If belonging to the gentry was a reward, not a privilege inherited from ancestors, and there was no ill feeling towards newcomers to a land hoping to make an honest living... The problem with our modern capitalist system is no matter how earnestly you strive you know you've very little chance of actually achieving your dreams, unless you dream of renting till you die and living off benefits in old age... 

 

I say return to class but allow it to be fairly fought for. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

In the US, several wealthy people have build enormous houses on a grand scale.  They must have staff or they would be unable to maintain this life style.  Because a household like this requires a hierarchy, what difference does it make if the title of the head of the staff is 'butler' or 'property manager'.

 

The laws of inheritance being what they are I don't think these establishments can survive the demise of the owners.  The inheritance taxes for the legatees are such that it will be 'root, hog, or die'.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I never approved of inheritance taxes. I think gifts should never be taxed. But then again that's my inner idealist coming out... Obviously that would open up huge loopholes for tax avoidance. 'It's a gift to my business partner, I swear on God!'...

 

However inheritance is another matter. Due to its nature I think it should be exempt from tax. But I think owners of wealth should give their wealth to those who deserve it, not to whoever is their eldest son... I think Ingrid Dracula should inherit the (now burnt down) castle. 

 

Anyway back on topic I reckon Syd-Mel via Canberra is fairly safe. If they made it a luxury affair (I mean meals provided of a nice quality, comfy seats etc...) it would attract a large clientele I feel and compete with the airways. Jetstar might give you 50 buck flights to Victoria, but do they provide beer and Australian made food and chairs with cushions and enough room to stretch your legs? I reckon sardining will lose its appeal to business soon. Consumers are getting smarter.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Yes, you can't drop back to the club car in an aircraft, nor go up to the observation lounger either.

 

"Oh, we've overbooked the train?  Well, then add a few more cars."

[timmie 988]

Generally, that's not possible with high speed trains. Most high speed trains have a fixed length (TGV, AVE, Thalys, Eurostar, ICE,...), although it exists for trains that go a bit slower (the Railjet is an example, v_max is 230 kmph).

[AkemiAzula 280]

Of course we mustn't forget that before the advent of planes 'high speed rail' referred to streamlined steam engines on regular tracks...

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Anybody remember the 20^th Century Limited train service?  Coast to coast in a couple of days as I recall.

[Haljackey 17,403]

Hey at least plans are being drawn here.

 

 

Here in Canada studies have been done since the 1960s. With all the money we've spent on studies we could have built the thing by now!

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Governments would rather stop something than stick their collective necks out and start something.  Studies are the standard delaying tactics.

 

[jk]

Why does a civil servant not look out the window in the morning?

So he'll have something to do in the afternoon.

[/jk]

[AkemiAzula 280]

Vancouver-Quebec. Now.

 

That's what I'd be saying to my ministers if I was their Prime Minister. Quit slacking and build the darn thing. The yanks built the Union Pacific, didn't they?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Vancouver - Halifax already exists with a stop in Quebec City. 

 

HSR through the Rockies means a monstrous tunnel project in a volcanic zone.  Fun huh?  What would make the party complete is if the Cascadia Fault let go.  It is overdue for a type 9 or 10 quake.

 

Blame it on whomever replaced Sir Sandford Fleming when he fell out of favour in Ottawa.

[AkemiAzula 280]

Well I suppose the present rail system would be 'high speed' if there weren't any cars. I certainly couldn't beat a train on my pushbike. (Well once in Sydney I did but they go slowly and a hill aided me)

[Odainsaker 2,137]

I'm going to resurrect this thread for this surprise that was announced yesterday to San Antonio residents:

Next-Generation Border Crossing: First-Ever High Speed Train To Connect U.S. And Mexico By 2018

 

 

Bullet trains from Monterrey, Mexico, to San Antonio, Texas, by way of Laredo/Nuevo Laredo.  No way!

 

Usually, high speed rail in Texas is discussed in terms of either lines connecting Dallas to Houston, or a trunk line following the I-35 NAFTA spinal corridor, or interconnecting all the major Texas cities with a Texas Triangle or a Texas T-bone.  There hasn't been a major passenger link from San Antonio south into Mexico since the 1950s, when the Aztec Eagle linked San Antonio all the way to Mexico City by way of Laredo and Monterrey thanks to the Missouri Pacific Railroad and Ferrocarril Nacional de México.  However, Monterrey, a Beta world city twice the size of San Antonio, is today among the most advanced economic and industrial centers of Mexico and one of the leading business hubs of Latin America, such that Wiki calls Monterrey the most "Americanized" of Mexican cities.  Monterrey's expanding middle class spends a great portion of its newfound wealth across the nearby northern border in Laredo and San Antonio, where Mexican tourists and shoppers enjoy more favorable exchange rates or prices and all the conveniences of U.S. markets.  The article is even more direct:  "80 percent of U.S. Mexican economic activity passes through Monterrey."  Visiting Mexican nationals reportedly spent $359 million in San Antonio in 2012, $2.7 billion in the South and Central Texas regions, and around $4.5 billion annually in Texas.  San Antonio wants to ensure a piece of that still growing pie through ever tighter direct bonds with Monterrey, and the Superhighway is already impossibly jammed.

 

Interestingly, already the lightning rod issues of border security, immigration, drug-running, and race-relations have risen to the top of news bulletin-board discussions, even before the killer questions of cost.  The populist political tirades practically write themselves, and this proposal crossing national borders would have to go through the Obama Administration for approval and likely the U.S. Congress for funding, and we can all easily guess how a bill for "Bullet Trains from Mexico" would fare in today's Washington.  It really is hard even to imagine customs in Texas operating on the European model for through trains!

It would seem the Mexican side intends to push ahead with the Monterrey-Laredo stretch of the route anyway, as Laredo is the major point of entry for Mexican goods into the I-35 NAFTA Superhighway serving the U.S. Midwest and central Canada.  Re-establishing passenger rail links from San Antonio south into Mexico had always been considered a long-term vision, and few here in South Texas expected it to come to the fore so soon.  Even fewer have a cost estimate, funding scenario, or political game plan for any U.S. stretch.  We are still waiting for Amtrak to resume Sunset Limited service from New Orleans to Orlando, which had originally been washed out by Hurricane Katrina, and which would restore the last remaining fully cross-country rail route in the U.S., which had San Antonio at the center as a primary junction.  We will go into the study mode.

 

Ah well, perhaps by the time this is ever online, Texas will finally have gotten its own statewide bullet train plan somewhere beyond the study phase, and we might actually someday have a rational rail system.  At least, San Antonio should have its streetcar system up and running, which already ties together the city's two historic heavy rail stations with downtown, and which also conveniently have open the right-of-ways for light rail into the suburbs.  It's all just pieces in a puzzle.  Perhaps, if Mexican President Peña Nieto manages to get his way, we may one day again even have rail service all the way to Mexico City.

[Duke87 1,070]

High speed rail crossing a border that doesn't have a schengen-style treaty in place seems like an odd idea indeed... Amtrak trains that cross into Canada have a solid two hours planned in their schedule to stop at customs, since the train cannot leave until every single passenger on board is cleared, and that takes time! Presumably a US/Mexico crossing would be at least as bad.

 

At this point, the delay for customs on the train rivals the combined delay for customs and security at airports, and so the train kind of stops being worth it from a time perspective. Might as well just fly.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The best laid plans of mice and drug cartels gang aft agley.

[Fatherted 129]

Why not power the trains with Solar on top with a high-capacity battery carriage? The US is sunny enough, especially the East Coast and Midwest. No need to use nuclear energy (a 7 carriage train would require the reactor to be in a 5m squared concrete or lead wall. Not super duper practical. The Solar would be a great advancement for the US to cultivate.

Oh whoops, the Government is run by the oil companies. Never mind.

One day I'm just gonna get a spaceship and leave. 100 stories for all my friends, family, some parks, swimming pool () etc.

[timmie 988]

High speed rail crossing a border that doesn't have a schengen-style treaty in place seems like an odd idea indeed... Amtrak trains that cross into Canada have a solid two hours planned in their schedule to stop at customs, since the train cannot leave until every single passenger on board is cleared, and that takes time! Presumably a US/Mexico crossing would be at least as bad.

 

At this point, the delay for customs on the train rivals the combined delay for customs and security at airports, and so the train kind of stops being worth it from a time perspective. Might as well just fly.

 

HSR crossing borders between countries without a Schengen-treaty already exist: the Eurostar that uses the Channel Tunnel. Great-Britain and Ireland are not members of the Schengen area, the countries on the Continent are. Eurostar services exist from Brussels and Paris, and the system works like an airline: you have to arrive before a certain hour (I think half an hour before your train departs), you go through the security checks and passport control (British customs in the station). The train platform is not accessible in other ways. I think this is the case in Paris, Lille and Brussels.

 

In 2016, though, a Eurostar London-Amsterdam will be introduced, probably with a stop in Antwerp too (I doubt if this is interesting, since taking the plane is way faster). However, there is no possibility to organize security checks in these stations (space limitations and other reasons). The solution? Everyone will have to leave the train in Brussels, train will be checked and people will need to pass security checks and customs. Rather ridiculous.

[Odainsaker 2,137]

That seems to be the model being suggested--customs and security zones at the Monterrey and San Antonio stations, with the trains running non-stop between the two cities.  There would not be a stop or customs checkpoint at the border crossing at Laredo.

Not that this is going far anytime soon...yesterday, I overheard a political ad for one of the Republican contenders for the powerful office of Lieutenant Governor in the upcoming 2014 Texas gubernatorial election, and the ad was solely about securing the border, deporting illegal immigrants, and defeating Obama's amnesty program.  While those are naturally expected Conservative talking points whenever the topics of "border" and "Mexico" are brought up, nowhere was there any parallel vision about enhancing or developing the trading economies of the border regions, which on both the U.S. and Mexico sides are still deeply impoverished.  While high-speed rail, superhighways, border trade zones, and guest-worker programs are certainly all up to argument as to what is the best course of action for the U.S.'s most heavily traversed border for goods shipping and, more broadly, the world's most heavily crossed international border when counting even just the legal crossings, that there should be zero public policy thought to the area beyond the fixation with Spanish-speaking illegals is insane.  The talking points have moved beyond base voter-reassurance to become a form of thought suppression of crimethink.  Meanwhile, Texas's primary and most public advocate at the Federal level for trans-national border projects in Washington would be...U.S. Senator Ted Cruz.  Perhaps Obama needs to say he opposes a bullet train to Monterrey, so that automatic opponents will fall over themselves in trying to embrace the project as another keystone pipeline to prosperity.

[Duke87 1,070]

HSR crossing borders between countries without a Schengen-treaty already exist: the Eurostar that uses the Channel Tunnel. Great-Britain and Ireland are not members of the Schengen area, the countries on the Continent are.

 

Nonetheless, I imagine that clearing customs going between the UK and France is significantly less of a hassle than clearing them between the US and Mexico. For one thing because the US is not one of the parties involved (yay jingoistic paranoia), for another because you do not have drug and gun smuggling problems between the UK and France.

 

 

Still, with no intermediate stops (although that certainly stiffs Laredo), pre-clearing is doable, assuming you can get everyone cleared fast enough to keep the timing competitive.