Big Brother Is Spying On You!

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ that question has been answered above in this thread.  The most innocent utterance can be spun to incriminate you.

 

And this morning...

[north country dude 207]

If phone calls were being monitored, what makes it a concern to the average citizen? You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide.

umm, because you do have things that need privacy and to be kept hidden from the general public?

 

Like, medical appointments, email addresses, credit card numbers, birth dates, social security numbers, bank account numbers, tax info, ATM PIN numbers, anything a government can get, a cyber criminal can also get. Yes, those things are also discussed in phone and text conversations.

[Thande 10]

 

If phone calls were being monitored, what makes it a concern to the average citizen? You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide.

umm, because you do have things that need privacy and to be kept hidden from the general public?

 

Like, medical appointments, email addresses, credit card numbers, birth dates, social security numbers, bank account numbers, tax info, ATM PIN numbers, anything a government can get, a cyber criminal can also get. Yes, those things are also discussed in phone and text conversations.

 

Would the government let the public access such information?

EDIT: Plus, if only non-domestic calls were being monitored with the exception of a few by mistake, how relevant is this to everyday people?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Really, one should consider the definition of freedom and how even a little lost freedom is the thin edge of the wedge to tyranny.  Lost privacy to any degree is a loss of freedom.

 

Freedom is not free, and once you have it, grasp it with both hands and hang on for dear life.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

 Half of the people here already assumes that the government is just days away from arresting every body on suspicion of terrorism. Or that the government is only there to screw them over. 

LOL it's called 'learning from, and understanding, history'. 

 

Seriously, bro. Do we need a litany of regimes over human history that would have murdered their own grandmothers for the kind of 'internal security' abilities the US and other gov'ts currently have? Do I need to reference a long line of literary greats who have written epics about tyrannies; that didn't have the merest shadow of an inkling about what is now possible? 

 

Let's not trot out failed ideas about the inherent goodness of mankind. Mankind is desperately evil, and needs only a minor hole in the armor of society to build ovens and plow killing fields. 

[AkemiAzula 280]

I meant that I was employing the term Luddite to indicate resentment/fear regarding new technology, knowing well that the actual Luddites may have been wealthy industrialists, and knowing well that most Catholics are Portestant and most Irish men eat English breakfast and that polar bears love sunbaking.

 

My point was that I was employing the term in its commonly accepted usage.

 

At any rate I stand by my argument that this is a 'Luddite' reaction... To inevitable technological advancements

[LexusInfernus 908]

LOL it's called 'learning from, and understanding, history'. 

 

 

 

Seriously, bro. Do we need a litany of regimes over human history that would have murdered their own grandmothers for the kind of 'internal security' abilities the US and other gov'ts currently have? Do I need to reference a long line of literary greats who have written epics about tyrannies; that didn't have the merest shadow of an inkling about what is now possible? 

 

Let's not trot out failed ideas about the inherent goodness of mankind. Mankind is desperately evil, and needs only a minor hole in the armor of society to build ovens and plow killing fields. 

Yes, but the US is not a tyranny, and the only way for it to become one is if US voters decide to all vote for a tyrant. In which case the tyranny is on yourself. 

 

A government is not inherently evil or corrupt, nor is its primary motive to seek more power. A government is simply a construct run by human beings, and therefor the nature of the government depends on the nature of the people that are in it and the nature of the society it governs. All the increased government surveillance is simply the result of society's paranoia. 

 

And personally I learned a quite different lesson from history. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

One seems to have forgotten the creeping coup d'etat.  Hitler did one of those, although in a short time frame and against a beleaguered and very weak central government.

 

However, if one looks at the state of congress at the moment having a squabble in the hen-house, it wouldn't take much for a really charismatic leader to upset the whole federal government apple cart.  Fortunately, the education system tends to either suppress or drive out such possible leaders.  From here, people like Ron Paul look like the supreme bishop of the Fosterites rather than Jeremiah Scudder.

[north country dude 207]

 

 

If phone calls were being monitored, what makes it a concern to the average citizen? You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide.

umm, because you do have things that need privacy and to be kept hidden from the general public?

 

Like, medical appointments, email addresses, credit card numbers, birth dates, social security numbers, bank account numbers, tax info, ATM PIN numbers, anything a government can get, a cyber criminal can also get. Yes, those things are also discussed in phone and text conversations.

 

Would the government let the public access such information?

EDIT: Plus, if only non-domestic calls were being monitored with the exception of a few by mistake, how relevant is this to everyday people?

 

mmm, yeah,...except it wasn't a "government employee" who blew the whistle on PRISM, it was a government contractor,...someone outside of the government. And currently, Congressional hearings are uncovering information that domestic calls caught in the web of PRISM are recorded and archived for later use, all without the intercession of the FISA court.

 

I meant that I was employing the term Luddite to indicate resentment/fear regarding new technology, knowing well that the actual Luddites may have been wealthy industrialists, and knowing well that most Catholics are Portestant and most Irish men eat English breakfast and that polar bears love sunbaking.

 

My point was that I was employing the term in its commonly accepted usage.

 

At any rate I stand by my argument that this is a 'Luddite' reaction... To inevitable technological advancements

Sure, okay, you're welcome to that viewpoint. I was completely aware of the "common usage".

 

Problem is, it has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. The people who are protesting this issue have nothing against technological advancement,...in fact many embrace it and use it to protect their 4th Amendment rights and maintain their privacy. I am completely for technology, and calling me a paranoid Luddite couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

Again, what in the world does the NSA sidestepping the FISA court, violating American 4th Amendment rights, and conducting illegal operations against American citizens(who are not subjects of criminal investigations) have to do with "fear of technology"? What I am against is abuse of power and privilege, not technology. With that given, how in the world can you get to Paranoid Luddite? Who is making these claims that technology is to blame for the NSA breaking the law? That argument is just absurd, pointless, and completely off topic.

 

Just check the links I posted that help you maintain your privacy and safety online(how is that "against technological advancement"?) Claiming that in today's society, technology precludes any privacy, is absurd. Claiming that if you have nothing to hide, you needn't worry about intrusion, is also absurd. You can have and need a certain amount of privacy. With current and emerging technology, and a little common sense, you can protect yourself from intrusions into your private life.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Mr. Snowden, according to this morning's press, has fled to Russia with an ultimate destination in South America.  That makes him a fugitive from American 'justice' I suppose.  If he signed the official secrets act, he is undoubtedly a traitor in the strict sense of the word.

[AkemiAzula 280]

...What I am against is abuse of power and privilege, not technology. ...

 

Well I think then that we are not in disagreement as I too believe in not abusing power. 

 

And Moose on Classic FM it said Iceland was his most likely final destination. Apparently Russia is one of the nations who have not signed an extradition treaty with the US, so he can freely fly through (one presumes) Moscow airport

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Looks more like Ecuador.

 

I don't think the US has a treaty to extradite him from there.  If they want him that badly they'll have to have a black op.

[AkemiAzula 280]

I read that article in full seeing as (a) it is mildly interesting, and (b) I woke up fairly early this morning and there were barely any jobs to apply for yet again... This is the centre of the horticultural industry in Britain and there were no horticultural jobs. 

 

At any rate I am indifferent to Snowden and Assange... I think that certainly there cases should be considered in a fair unbiased manner, and that the US may be a touch reactionary to order extradition... After all, if indeed he has all these nationally sensitive secrets at his disposal, surely any smart individual would hold onto a doozy or two just in case he needs to barter terms.

 

At any rate I think he deserves to have his case considered... After all espionage and counter-espionage isn't black and white and is after all a very complicated area... To be perfectly honest there is a part of me that sympathises with his kind and WikiLeaks. I believe the real threats to society are things like obesity and unemployment, violent video games and poor education systems. Not the small threat of a terrorist attack or a 'cyber' attack. As long as defenses exist the castle will get by, as it were. 

 

Having said that 'cybercrime' is a totally different ball game. I went for a walk along the River Arun yesterday to an old fort constructed circa 1830, and it had formerly been near the site of earlier fortifications, a battery of five guns overlooking the river mouth. Back in the Seven Years War in the eighteenth century with France a French spy had drawn a basic map of the area including the fortifications. There is an English Channels width between this sort of action (which either side could perform, and which required physically dislocating ones position and undertaking great risks) and 'cyber' crimes which are so anonymous and potentially viral and systemic.

 

The issue here is the technologically advanced nature of cybercrime, and its seriousness. Naturally any government has every right to be concerned about the release of sensitive information, and that is why I can not walk around with a picket sign with Eds face on it chanting Marxist slogans. But I do think that, from what I can tell so far, he seems to be a reasonable individual, and after all the one great thing about WikiLeaks is it's a free and equal organisation. The information gathered is available to anyone, and this is what makes me consider his actions more leniently than had he, say, transferred sensitive data to Vlad Putin or something.

 

The open, honest nature of WL is what makes me sympathise with his kind. It strikes a chord with my old ideals about truth and honesty that I adhere to wherever possible myself, and also seems almost practical and sensible to counter the darker side of secrecy.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

It's okay if the government is spying on us because if we trust them there is no problem. We trust that the media will always investigate and bring forth any government shortfall, scandal or unconstitutional behaviour. We trust the president to pursue his policy of a transparent administration. We trust that Congress, Senate and the Supreme Court will never pass through (or uphold) any act or bill which is unconstitutional. We trust that the various anti-terror laws are for our protection and are not here to conduct witch-hunts or investigations of undesirables. We trust that the government knows what it is doing irrespective of a long drawn-out war on terror, a trillion dollar plus deficit or unusual Federal Reserve policies. Finally we trust that our votes have more of a say on government policy than the corporate lobbying which takes place.

 

So if all those criterion are met there is no problem, and if we have nothing to hide and the government has nothing to hide, then again there is no problem. Right?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ This kind of Pollyanna attitude is what is eroding freedom.  Take the motto from the play Candide: "This is the best of all possible worlds".  The attitude holds up even after the heroine has been raped by an entire army.

 

People who hide their heads in the sand have the other end exposed to whatever comes by.

[hym 358]

I believe that he is being sarcastic.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Op Ed Piece that is maybe more relevant.

 

Who sold what information to whom?  We already know why.  And is someone tracking cell phone GPS chips?  How?

 

Note that all this violation of privacy is on the head of the holder of the cell phone and the use he makes of the social networks, eh?

[north country dude 207]

People who hide their heads in the sand have the other end exposed to whatever comes by.

LOL That image is too, too funny.

 

A British listening post near bucolic Harrogate, in northern England, that provides telecom data to British and Western spy agencies, including America's NSA. (Nigel Roddis / Reuters)

Noooo! British and European Intelligence services are just as guilty as the NSA? Say it isn't so!

[Cobraroll 138]

^Depends on how you look at it. As Lexus said, when governments spy on their own citizens, those same citizens can demand the government charged by the laws of the relevant country. When citizens are spied on by foreign government, they are powerless to stop the espionage. As much as "the world" wants to have a word or two with the NSA concerning the snoping in emails and phones, only Americans can challenge them on legal ground.

 

Then again, when the British intelligence sends stuff over to the Americans too, things become a little fishy. I don't know what I dislike the most: That American intelligence approached its British counterpart and asked "Hey, we'd like to have a look or two at the phone conversations of your citizens. Care to help?", or that the British intelligence replied "Yeah, sure".

 

Makes you wonder if Britain keeps track of some American citizens too, with the consent of the NSA, the CIA or whatever three-lettered organization that does such things. Would a revelation of such matters anger the Americans?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

NCD: The ostriches make good spots to park a bicycle.  The end showing is usually big enough to hold a motorcycles.

[LexusInfernus 908]

^Depends on how you look at it. As Lexus said, when governments spy on their own citizens, those same citizens can demand the government charged by the laws of the relevant country. When citizens are spied on by foreign government, they are powerless to stop the espionage. As much as "the world" wants to have a word or two with the NSA concerning the snoping in emails and phones, only Americans can challenge them on legal ground.

 

Then again, when the British intelligence sends stuff over to the Americans too, things become a little fishy. I don't know what I dislike the most: That American intelligence approached its British counterpart and asked "Hey, we'd like to have a look or two at the phone conversations of your citizens. Care to help?", or that the British intelligence replied "Yeah, sure".

 

Makes you wonder if Britain keeps track of some American citizens too, with the consent of the NSA, the CIA or whatever three-lettered organization that does such things. Would a revelation of such matters anger the Americans?

Britain together with Canada, Australia and New Zealand and the US signed the UKUSA security agreement. And in that capacity they run ECHELON so its hardly news that the British are doing some spying as well.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Five pages of 'oh, look, we already knew that but chose to ignore it.'

[AkemiAzula 280]

Obviously spy agencies collaborate between allied nations.

 

Which is another reason why I am not afraid of this new tech. No one nation will undermine the world's security/freedoms. It would take a UN sized movement to do that. The Hitlers and Stalins of this world tend to keep to nationalist circles. I can't imagine a worldwide agreement happening any time soon. Look at Kyoto.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

There are two things that people worry about: things they can do something about; and things about which they can do nothing.  In the former case, stop worrying and do something about it.  In the latter case, forget it and stop worrying.  Worrying is bad for you and extreme cases produces psychosis.

[Cobraroll 138]

I thought the US and the EU were supposed to cooperate?

 

(I know it's German. Google Translate it if you can't read it)

 

One thing is government-sanctioned exchange of data from suspects' email accounts. But direct espionage against the EU? The public European view on the American government is nearing Bush-era levels of mistrust...

 

You even seem to get a certain level of censorship over there. Automatically blocked by a computer, though. No human being in the administration specifically targeted The Guardian for blocking. Still, it sounds a little worrying. We're used to this sort of news from the East, not the West...

[LexusInfernus 908]

Well obviously the US doesn't trust its European allies either, given the fact that they are spying us, rather than trusting the EU to deliver reliable intelligence through official cooperation programs. 

 

Then again, should this come as a real surprise? We already knew that the US was spying on the EU and Europe in general. Again, refer back to ECHELON. Sure, that's just one program, but its rather naive to think that it was the only spy program. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

So far, in all this, nothing new has been revealed.  Sometimes people are naive beyond belief.  The question is what real news is being covered over by all this flap?

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

just a fun aside from social media, dovetailing with the Paula Deen silliness:

 

[FreewayofFlight 41]

Here is another bit of comic relief:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3cw4185gvM

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ A little more rehearsal with someone who knew how to sing would be a help.  Happy independence day, America.  Now what?