Abandoned buildings

[MrPacMan 1]

Hello

I would like to know why some of my buildings look like this:

 

 

thank you

[Bdub01 201]

Okay we need a whole lot more info before anyone can even make an educated guess. For starters how big is your city. More importantly what does the RCI demand meter look like. If you have a negative demand for a certain wealth class sims leave the area. Also what kind of city are you going for ie high wealth or the ghetto look? Till there is more I can't say. Maybe Mr.Moose can but not I

[theBrad 25]

From my experience, and what it looks like on your screeshot - you most likely have expanded too far & need to scale back.  I can't say you will be able to reclaim those buildings, because you may very well may have to level them.  This is because sometimes growth will outpace demand, and you might experience a boom - not too unlike our own housing bubble in the US 5-10 years ago - but demand for commercial / industrial has leveled.  So, you likely have high demand for low wealth residential & relatively low demand for high wealth.

 

So my opinion is to level it & get low wealth residential built.

[Camlon 50]

Hello

I would like to know why some of my buildings look like this:

32326523656.jpg

 

 

thank you

Certainly a jobless issue. First off get the NAM if you don't have it.

 

Secondly, there are two main reasons why you have this problem

1. You do not have enough hi-tech industrial jobs or commercial jobs.  I don't believe this is your issue because your residential demand is high. 

2. You do have enough jobs, but they are too far away.

 

Remember that without the NAM, workers will only get jobs very close to where they live. Even with the NAM they will only go half a map. So you need build the commercial and industry zones closer to residential areas. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The building degraded into a flea bag from high wealth.  Reasons:

 

1.  Not enough jobs for R$$$

2.  Jobs too far away

3.  Too many R$$$ - hold them to 15% of total.

4.  Something changed the environment

[Turjan 1,048]

Your building is overcrowded with people of two wealth levels below for what it was built. In this case, if you raze the building, you might get a tenement instead, which is meant to hold that many lower class people. But check all the possibilities the Moose has mentioned.

[Cyclone Boom 17,016]

This may be caused by low desirability, which can affect demand for a developer type. The queried building was originally high wealth (R$$$) and has since declined to low wealth (R$), resulting in the fall of the building's occupancy. For high wealth to develop, there must have been an initial demand for it. But if there aren't enough $$$ jobs, this won't be sustainable (hence the decline). Low desirability can also be caused by external factors, such as pollution, garbage, or poor health / education levels. Check your data views and graphs, to make sure your city has an adequate coverage of these services. You may find it's just an isolated issue, for this particular district of your city.

It's also important to limit negative RCI demand -- which is often a major contributor to abandonment. Negative demand occurs when a developer type is over supplied. Demand for all types can change and fluctuate a lot. For example, if there's a high demand for R$$$, you may react by zoning high density residential. But if this demand falls, you'll have an excess of supply, which can lead to abandonment.

To be aware of these changes, always keep an eye on the RCI Graph (click the RCI meter to view) which shows the full demand profiles for each developer type. As suggested above, make sure the area has access to commercial and high-tech businesses. It's also a good idea to install the HT Fix, available This solves a bug in the game, where high-tech buildings fail to actually employ workers.

In short, balancing demand and supply can help to reduce abandonment rates.

[MrPacMan 1]

 

Thanks alot guys! Your comments helped alot.

 

I`ve found the reason - my residential($) is VERY high, ($$$) low or negative. My commercial($) demand is OK, while ($$$) demand is negative. How can I make the demand for ($$$) high?

[z1 566]

Even with the NAM they will only go half a map.

 

Not true - I've had them commute from one corner of a large tile to the opposite one.  Additionally, there is no theoretical limit to the number of tiles they will cross for a commute; you just have to be careful how you lay out your cities.

 

So you need build the commercial and industry zones closer to residential areas.

 

Again, this is not true with the NAM.  Eliminating this requirement was one of the main reasons the NAM traffic simulator was built.  Zones can be spread as far apart as you like, even into the next city.  But if you want to do this successfully, you will need lots of subways and stops as well.

 

I have repeated these points many, many times.  If you can't get the NAM to do something for you, that doesn't mean the NAM can't do it; it very often just means you don't know how to fully utilize the NAM.  Please don't assume that the limitations you find in your own game play are built into the NAM, and not merely a result of how you play the game.

[SilverCyric 130]

How far apart is the maximum you would suggest for placing subway stops apart, is there a general rule, or is there a different approach when attempting to get your sims to travel across a whole tile for a commute?

[z1 566]

How far apart is the maximum you would suggest for placing subway stops apart, is there a general rule, or is there a different approach when attempting to get your sims to travel across a whole tile for a commute?

 

Excellent question.  If you want best results from the traffic simulator, put them about a block apart (6 - 8 tiles).  This becomes more important the bigger your city gets; big cities also need plenty of subway lines.

 

If you don't like all those subway stops eating into your real estate, you should check out RTMT (Road Top Mass Transit), both the main v3.50 version and the v3.60 add-on pack.  This plugin allows you to put bus and subway stops right on your roadways.

[Camlon 50]

Even with the NAM they will only go half a map.

 

Not true - I've had them commute from one corner of a large tile to the opposite one.  Additionally, there is no theoretical limit to the number of tiles they will cross for a commute; you just have to be careful how you lay out your cities.

Wrong, there is a theoretical limit. They did not remove commute limit. Also, I am not talking about the fast transports. I am talking about roads. With a subway network they can go farther. 

 

So you need build the commercial and industry zones closer to residential areas.

 

Again, this is not true with the NAM.  Eliminating this requirement was one of the main reasons the NAM traffic simulator was built.  Zones can be spread as far apart as you like, even into the next city.  But if you want to do this successfully, you will need lots of subways and stops as well.

 

I have repeated these points many, many times.  If you can't get the NAM to do something for you, that doesn't mean the NAM can't do it; it very often just means you don't know how to fully utilize the NAM.  Please don't assume that the limitations you find in your own game play are built into the NAM, and not merely a result of how you play the game.

 

Even in the next city is not impressive. I can do that without the NAM as well. Of course they have to be close to the border, but that's it, 

 

But no you can not spread your cities as far apart as you like with the NAM, The NAM was not created to achieve that. The NAM was created to fix the transport system to make it more realistic. People still have a limit of how far they will go to work. Subways will make them go farther, but it still have limits. 

 

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it. It is wrong every single time. NAM does have a commute limit. 

 

BTW: Not all cities have subway. It depends on how you want to play the game. There is not just one way of playing the game. 

[z1 566]

Wrong, there is a theoretical limit. They did not remove commute limit. Also, I am not talking about the fast transports. I am talking about roads. With a subway network they can go farther.

 

Um, "they" in this case happens to be me.  And yes, the commute limit was not removed.  But it is always reset to zero every time the Sims cross a city boundary.  It has to be - cities don't keep track of how long their entering Sims have been commuting.

 

If you do the math, you can see that in the NAM, Sims can cross from one corner of a large tile to the opposite one simply by walking.  As their commute time gets reset every time they cross a city boundary, there is no theoretically no limit to how far they can go.  The traffic simulator does make things difficult with its destination finder; I strongly recommend reading to see how things actually work.  This guide is based on countless hours of experiments and working with the raw data - not on speculation or second-hand knowledge.

 

 

So you need build the commercial and industry zones closer to residential areas.

 

Again, this is not true with the NAM.  Eliminating this requirement was one of the main reasons the NAM traffic simulator was built.  Zones can be spread as far apart as you like, even into the next city.  But if you want to do this successfully, you will need lots of subways and stops as well.

 

I have repeated these points many, many times.  If you can't get the NAM to do something for you, that doesn't mean the NAM can't do it; it very often just means you don't know how to fully utilize the NAM.  Please don't assume that the limitations you find in your own game play are built into the NAM, and not merely a result of how you play the game.

 

 

Even in the next city is not impressive. I can do that without the NAM as well. Of course they have to be close to the border, but that's it, 

 

But no you can not spread your cities as far apart as you like with the NAM, The NAM was not created to achieve that.

 

To the contrary, that's exactly why I built the NAM traffic simulator.  I wanted to replicate the city of Chicago to scale, all 30 miles of it with its spread-out zones and long-distance commutes.  So I created a traffic simulator that was capable of doing that, while still able to function properly in more traditional SC4 environments.

 

The NAM was created to fix the transport system to make it more realistic.

 

Yes.

 

People still have a limit of how far they will go to work.

 

No, they don't, as I repeat for the umpteenth time.  Because commute times are reset at city boundaries, once Sims are able to commute across a whole tile, there is no way of placing a limit on how far they will go.  You can't build a traffic simulator that will allow Sims to commute two tiles and no more; there's no way of doing that.  And by that, I don't mean "no known way"; I mean "no way".

 

Subways will make them go farther, but it still have limits.

 

Then why have I not seen them in my Chicago simulation?

 

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it. It is wrong every single time. NAM does have a commute limit.

 

Based on  what?  I've done the experiments, I've done the work.  I would also suggest you read the thread NAM Unified Traffic Simulator Development and Theory, all 28 pages of it, to see what went into making the NAM traffic simulator. You'll see some of the experiments that disprove what you're saying.

 

BTW, even before I arrived on the scene, no one who had any understanding of how the traffic simulator worked thought that there was a total commute limit.  It's not just me.

 

BTW: Not all cities have subway. It depends on how you want to play the game. There is not just one way of playing the game.

 

Of course.  But I'm just telling you what works for large cities; you're free to ignore it.  SC4 is not completely realistic, and if you want your cities to come out the way you'd like, you have to acknowledge that.  Can you build a city on a large tile of over a million Sims with no subways that suffers no dilapidation or abandonment?  The mechanics of the hard-coded traffic simulator do not permit it.

[Camlon 50]

Wrong, there is a theoretical limit. They did not remove commute limit. Also, I am not talking about the fast transports. I am talking about roads. With a subway network they can go farther.

 

Um, "they" in this case happens to be me.  And yes, the commute limit was not removed.  But it is always reset to zero every time the Sims cross a city boundary.  It has to be - cities don't keep track of how long their entering Sims have been commuting.

NAM was created by a team, not just you. That is just arrogant.  

 

Why would you reset it to zero when it cross the border? From what I thought and heard it adds a fixed amount to travel time if you cross the borders. If it resets to zero that would be kind of silly. Is there an alternative version that does not have your silly reset system. 

 

But I just did an experiment, and they did travel across the whole large map to get job. I guess the abandonment troubles you may get from putting the zones too far away from each other is due to some other people taking their jobs, and they can't find any available jobs. 

[Turjan 1,048]

NAM was created by a team, not just you. That is just arrogant. 

 

Psst... You are talking to the guy who wrote the traffic simulator. You can download that one alone, without the NAM, if you want. It's the backbone of the NAM, though.

 

And it's nice that you want a commuter to have a fixed traveling time in other cities, but how do you want to achieve that if the game doesn't transfer this information with a commuter? It just checks whether the commuter reaches the border. And as there is only one city live at a time, it only checks for this one. And if you switch to the next city, it checks for that one, but doesn't have any info about what happened in the former city. That's a game limitation. The game only transfers the number of commuters, nothing else.

[Turjan 1,048]

Can you build a city on a large tile of over a million Sims with no subways that suffers no dilapidation or abandonment?

 

I have a city of 1 million inhabitants without subway, only some bus lines and a few rail stations. It seems stuck at that point, though. Of course, there is some dilapidation, but that's not unusual even in small cities if there's a slight imbalance in some corner. It just doesn't grow anymore, despite open demand.

[Camlon 50]

NAM was created by a team, not just you. That is just arrogant. 

 

Psst... You are talking to the guy who wrote the traffic simulator. You can download that one alone, without the NAM, if you want. It's the backbone of the NAM, though.

He didn't write it alone. I just felt his post was kind of arrogant. 

 

And it's nice that you want a commuter to have a fixed traveling time in other cities, but how do you want to achieve that if the game doesn't transfer this information with a commuter? It just checks whether the commuter reaches the border. And as there is only one city live at a time, it only checks for this one. And if you switch to the next city, it checks for that one, but doesn't have any info about what happened in the former city. That's a game limitation. The game only transfers the number of commuters, nothing else.

You are right about that. 

[Turjan 1,048]

 

NAM was created by a team, not just you. That is just arrogant. 

 

Psst... You are talking to the guy who wrote the traffic simulator. You can download that one alone, without the NAM, if you want. It's the backbone of the NAM, though.

He didn't write it alone. I just felt his post was kind of arrogant. 

 

Are you sure?

 

[z1 566]

NAM was created by a team, not just you. That is just arrogant. 

 

It's time for a little tutorial on the NAM.  The NAM is a huge project, created by dozens of people over many years.  It encompasses all the NAM networks, the traffic simulator, the NAM data views, and numerous other options.  The current build of the NAM is currently just under 750 MB.  I've had almost nothing to do with most of the NAM; I don't even understand how much of it works.  And overall, there are many people on the NAM Team who have contributed much more work to the NAM than I have, very often many times as much.

 

But everything we're talking about is in the NAM traffic simulator.  Look inside your main NAM folder, and you'll see a little file that starts with the name "NetworkAddonMod_Traffic_Plugin_Z_".  That's the NAM traffic simulator.  Its size is 2K (0.0000027% of the NAM).  That's not much to claim authorship of when the total size of the NAM is 750 MB, now is it?

 

Why is it so small, yet the traffic simulator does so much?  Because that file is really just a long list of parameters used by the traffic simulator code written by Maxis, which we cannot access or change.  "Building a traffic simulator" means tuning those parameters.  But this is not an easy process; it took a lot of hard work to understand what those parameters did, and how best to tune them.

 

So yes, I built the traffic simulator by myself, before joining the NAM Team.  I later refined it after becoming a NAM Team member.  If you look at the references I gave you, especially the last one, you can see how this all happened, and that what I say is true.

 

You can also ask anyone on the NAM team, not merely about my authorship, but whether I know what I'm talking about.  Feel free to post at the NAM Place and ask all you want.

 

Why would you reset it to zero when it cross the border?

 

I don't set it to zero; the game does.  We have absolutely no control over that.

 

BTW, you may have heard of "eternal commuter loops", where the Sims just commute around and around in a loop over several cities, never coming to an end.  "Eternal" is no exaggeration here.  These loops could never happen if there were a limit on commute time, could they?  We'd love to fix this, but again, this is hardwired into the executable.

 

 From what I thought and heard it adds a fixed amount to travel time if you cross the borders. If it resets to zero that would be kind of silly. Is there an alternative version that does not have your silly reset system.

 

If that were true, there would be no eternal commuter loops.  But they pop up all the time if you're not careful.  As this is hardwired into the SC4 executable, there is no version of the game that does not behave this way, nor are we able to create one.

 

And it's not "my" silly reset system; this is what Maxis gave us, and what we have to work with.

 

And it's nice that you want a commuter to have a fixed traveling time in other cities, but how do you want to achieve that if the game doesn't transfer this information with a commuter? It just checks whether the commuter reaches the border. And as there is only one city live at a time, it only checks for this one. And if you switch to the next city, it checks for that one, but doesn't have any info about what happened in the former city. That's a game limitation. The game only transfers the number of commuters, nothing else.

 

This is almost correct, but not quite.  The commuters carry with them their education and wealth levels.  This is necessary so that their job requirements don't change when they cross city boundaries.  The whole system of regional demand would not work properly without this feature.

[Turjan 1,048]

This is almost correct, but not quite.  The commuters carry with them their education and wealth levels.  This is necessary so that their job requirements don't change when they cross city boundaries.  The whole system of regional demand would not work properly without this feature.

 

Sure, I took that as a given. Numbers per bin, so to say. What I meant is that the game doesn't transfer spatial and temporal history, just how many of a certain type. What I didn't know is that it distinguishes between wealth and education level, I thought it just uses categories like C$$ or I$, or is that what you mean?

[z1 566]

No, the wealth category is broken up into R$, R$$, and R$$$, while the education level (or EQ) is a number between 0 and 200.  Sims can work at either commercial or industrial, as long as the wealth and education levels match up.

[Turjan 1,048]

Wow, the game actually uses 600 levels of commuters? See, I assumed it would bin that to reduce overhead, but that's a much finer granularity than I thought possible.

[z1 566]

Actually, for the purposes of job-seeking, the education numbers are broken up into chunks of 50, so there are four possible educational levels for job seekers.  To see how the numbers come together here in all their glory, please check out the excellent tutorial Workforce and Occupation Demands (Drives) by RippleJet.  It's essential to understanding which Sims search for which jobs.

 

The raw EQ is used for its full granularity in other settings, however.  For example, the EQ of all your city's Sims is averaged together to produce the Education graph; the value of this average is used by many different features in the game.

[Turjan 1,048]

Ah, ok. 12 bins for commuters makes more sense. Thanks for the link, that's an interesting read.

[SilverCyric 130]

Oh I've got numerous stops, and both the RTMT, which rocks!!, and I also use DEDWD's road top stations occasionally as well, I mostly use the RTMT, but I have some bigger stations for transit hubs and switches

I've never try to build a city tile with over 50,000 population without trying to add a decent subway, it's like my rule... Hehe, thanks for giving me an answer, Sometimes I do build across a few tiles, and it's nice to know how to get them to commute all the way...

[Camlon 50]

I tried to make a city with no transport system at all, I didn't even bother to upgrade my roads at all, and I plugged the industry on the other side of the map. Currently I have 1M sims, playing it on standard NAM.

 

I have no joblessness at all, even though all of my roads are red. A city like this in real life would not work. Cars would be stuck, the only way to get to work would be walking, (which most of them do) but that would take more than an hour. Most people would move if that was the case. 

 

It seems like all joblessness through NAM is through bugs. Not sure whats causing the bug. Z1 reccomends to build a subway, but I don't see how it will make a difference if I can build a 1M sim city with no transport system and hardly any roads. Still smart to build it though, if you don't want your city to be polluted to death. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

"It was managed by a job."

"And a good job too!"

Sir W. S. Gilbert in Trial by Jury

 

As an old programmer of very long standing, let me chime in here.  It is not unlikely that z1 can claim authorship of the traffic simulator.  It is a tiny routine in the massive scheme of things.  It is, perhaps, the lynchpin of the NAM and in fact can stand alone.

 

One wonders just how much code the other posters have written? 

 

I have written thousands of lines in everything from machine code to C++ and several arcane languages, including debugging and fixing compilers on occasion (the last one was BCPL for DoD).  Most of the code for the NAM is written using an arcane assembly-like language and is done painstakingly by hand because what is being manufactured is table entries for the existing kernel engine of the game.

 

Frankly, I am just a little miffed that the TSCT is written in Java.  A nice C/C++ executable that depends on nothing other than itself would have been nicer, and you then would not even need the JRE.  However, horses for courses, and write in the language(s) you know. 

 

Since I can get it to run, that's all I need to know about it.  Of course, one of the best things about it is that it does not really depend on any Microsoft features (I hope).  I am only slightly perturbed that I have to run it under the control of the Windows Executive on Linux.

 

Programmers generally have very broad shoulders, but this incessant nit picking should come to a halt.  The NAM team is now in a bit of a corner digging itself out of the problems found in V31, and still people take shots at them?  For shame!