Automata polygon limits?

[Ryno917 102]

I'm interested in creating some new Automata models (mostly cars, but thinking about busses, trains, GLR, etc as well). They obviously are very low poly models, but what is the reasonable polygon limit for these models? Is ~50 about right?

Thanks!

[EDIT] Just found an old Maglev thread where 500 poly was quoted... Is that correct? The models I've seen much be far lower than that...

  Edited October 1, 2012 by MAGGOT  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Don't know the limit, but the smaller the number the quicker the render. If you are dealing with animation, few is better than more.

[Ganaram Inukshuk 906]

When dealing with S3Ds (which is what automata models and transit networks models are), you don't wanna exceed 500 polygons, otherwise you'll start crashing the game whenever you try to render.

And yes, less is better.

[Ryno917 102]

Less always better for performance reasons, but what is the realistic upper limit for a car in SC4? Obvioiusly 500 is probably too high for something that will be as frequent as a car (much more than necessary, anyways. I remember modelling for the racing game SCGT and 750 was a lot, and the cars were the focus there!)

Would, say, 100 be acceptable for vehicle automata, or still too much as far as most people are concerned?

[NCGAIO 562]

The whole concept for low polygons is connected to any game where you use real 3D models for real-time rendering and free camera.

Otherwise the demands of hardware for compatibility with the games would be much higher.

For the current simcity she actually holds a level of hardware that has long been exceeded but the game has restrictions to manipulation of models in motion.

In the case of effects eg: is clearly noticeable,as they fail or cease to be shown when in very high numbers. This condition also implicit in the original document.

But watching the models currently distributed automata appears that many breeders are not taking any care in this regard. As one of them said to me "The current hardware can handle that very well!"

It is a mistake ...

[NCGAIO 562]

.......

Would, say, 100 be acceptable for vehicle automata, or still too much as far as most people are concerned?

The concept of how it disrupts the game is subjective and depends on the player.

Don't forget that exist the view configuration for the number of automata in the game.

Now if to show in a great city with medium zoom tile completely built and network traffic everywhere, and still define High automata, certainly would not be advisable to far exceed what are the originals

  Edited October 1, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[Ryno917 102]

Now if to show in a great city with medium zoom tile completely built and network traffic everywhere, and still define High automata, certainly would not be advisable to far exceed what are the originals

Do you know what the originals are? Somewhere in the 25-50 region perhaps?

[NCGAIO 562]

For those who are more in the game something like that and something in the range of 50 to 80 for those that are larger.

Most plans are just to support textures, working the details on maps

If you want to shape the game automata recommend reading the link below. There are other details that will be needed to export the model and textures beyond enlightenment; chassis; shadow etc ...

- Tutorials on AUTOMATA MODDING

note:Site registration needed to see it -Link

  Edited October 2, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[Ryno917 102]

Thanks for the link, I'll have a read-through that tonight

[EDIT]

Checked the tutorial.. Much of it is jibberish at first read, but once I go through the programs and the processes to get a car in the game I'm sure it'll make more sense. So; as you say keep it to around 50 polygons for a car. I think I'll be able to manage that for the car and get sufficient shape to it... Maybe I can start on the model this week, we'll see.

I'm also keen on doing a GLR tram, but something tells me that'll be trickier. Plus, the car is already pretty much designed (I've been slowly working on a new portfolio piece) so I'll just be going through the motions, so to speak, to model and texture it.

Oh yes; what constitutes an HD texture for Automata? Would that be a 512x512 texture?

  Edited October 1, 2012 by Ryno917  

[NCGAIO 562]

Exact ... but using textures larger than 256 forces the game to use hardware rendering only.

Even though most use it today, this is nonetheless a restrictive condition to use the plugin.

You can use the technique to map the model on two normal textures (2 FSH) to allow a higher resolution without the inconvenience of restricting software rendering.

It all depends on how much work you're willing to do to show their models, but do not forget that most of the time all are playing with zoom that does not allow differentiating the small details.

  Edited October 2, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[rivit 3,391]

As a producer of quite a few automata I have always taken the view that less vertices and polygons is better - particularly because the models may be used many times at once. If I can restrict a vehicle model to 50-100 verts and around 50 polys then I feel I've done a good job to balance detail and efficiency for rendering. This is not always possible.

In my experience textures larger than 256x256 for commuter vehicles are overkill. This size (256x256) is more than enough for "3d-ness" to seep into the model at the scales it will eventually be rendered. The better a texture models the shadows and reflections the fewer polys are needed. 128x128 if the source was photographic is also very good for small vehicles. My Yellow Tram and the Ute vehicles are good examples of this tradeoff.

In terms of "tricks of the trade", making use of the LR symmetry of the vehicle halves the texture requirements. Making the polys largely wrap the shape like a piece of tinfoil draped over the vehicle minimises the number of duplicate vertices. You do not need to follow every curve to give the impression of the shape - modern vehicles mostly vary their details (texture) ; their aerodynamic shapes (mesh) are quite similar. Using transparency to 'cut out" wheels and the underside of the vehicle also allows fewer vertices - in fact the idea is to project the essence of the vehicle in polys and the detail in textures.

Many of the original Maxis models are quite clever in their minimalist approach and are not at all made as boxes - unfortunately many of the textures were poor - or rather too small inside the space allocated. Just fixing the textures has a marked effect on enhancing the perceived resolution.

Starting of from a 5x5x3 box or another close model and nudging things around is the way I learnt to make automata. Also, even after a lot of grind I find it very hard to get a model down to these sizes using the powerful cad tools primarily because of the manner in which the textures are mapped - you really have to minimise joins where vertices will be duplicated. I have used a LOD shell over a more complex model with some success (also rendering the model to texture) but in the end you usually need to adjust in Reader to get the mesh right, and the mapping perfect.

Patience does seem to be a requisite for making these automata, but good results are very rewarding when everyone uses your models...

[Ryno917 102]

Thanks, guys

I think I'll be able to manage 50 polys for a car. I knew from the get-go that I would be conveying the real detailed shape through texture. Totally forgot that I could just mirror the other side in the texture, though! Definitely will be doing that.

As far as underside; I was thinking just not modelling the bottom and saving those polys; how often do you see the bottom of the automata anyways?

I'm hoping to get a model done up (and maybe UVmapped) by the end of the week if I can get the chance.

  Edited October 2, 2012 by Ryno917  

[Xyloxadoria 1,099]

As far as underside; I was thinking just not modelling the bottom and saving those polys; how often do you see the bottom of the automata anyways?

You dont ever see the bottom at all. Because of that you dont even need to make it at all. It will save some polygons that you can then reuse on the top/sides Look at any of the original tranist models (cars or bridges) none of them have a bottom.

[Ryno917 102]

As far as underside; I was thinking just not modelling the bottom and saving those polys; how often do you see the bottom of the automata anyways?

You dont ever see the bottom at all. Because of that you dont even need to make it at all. It will save some polygons that you can then reuse on the top/sides Look at any of the original tranist models (cars or bridges) none of them have a bottom.

I figured it would be a good way to go. In the thread that NCGAIO linked to there is a texture for the bottom, but I thought it wouldn't make sense to have it at all.

[NCGAIO 562]

I figured it would be a good way to go. In the thread that NCGAIO linked to there is a texture for the bottom, but I thought it wouldn't make sense to have it at all.

As the saying goes "The details are always where not we see them.".... The texture of the chassis used for all automatons serves so that you do not see the interior of the model, when an accident happens and him turns it upside down.

Worth what I said earlier..... Depending on the level of perfectionism you will have more or less work to include his work in the game. Always there will be cases where "Less is more," depends on the willingness of each ....

  Edited October 2, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[NCGAIO 562]

In my experience textures larger than 256x256 for commuter vehicles are overkill. This size (256x256) is more than enough for "3d-ness" to seep into the model at the scales it will eventually be rendered. The better a texture models the shadows and reflections the fewer polys are needed. 128x128 if the source was photographic is also very good for small vehicles. ...

Despite being consistent with the game is easy to note that many breeders do not care much for that ... just see lot of questions like "Why does my model appears Red-Green-Blue"

Of course we also enter here the fact of importing ready model available on the net for the game ... while recognizing that in some cases it is necessary to bring a more detailed model to reality.

This is a case where it is justified too, an excellent model Simfanatik that could not be done otherwise without steal realism!

  Edited October 2, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[Ryno917 102]

I had a couple hours last week so I began the model. I got to 46 polygons for less than half the car, so I'll have to do a little revision and simplify it further. I'm sure I can get it to 60 polys or so for the full vehicle in the end. I'll post images once the model is done and UV mapped.

[screamingman12 30]

When I first learned Automata, the rule was 150 polygons, and that was pretty much set in stone as far as we were concerned. As far as the red/blue/green splotches go, that happened when people started playing around with 512x512 textures, which need hardware rendering to support. I would imagine that 200-225 polygons would be the upper limit as far as models that will spawn frequently (cars, trains, buses, etc). I know a few years ago someone built a CTA L train with an interior for the game, but I don't know the polycount on that.