Cloud Based Game?

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Is this a new trend where companies make you buy access to the game and they keep all the data? Is this what is happening to the long awated Sim City sequel? This is beyond over protecting a product to combat piracy. I hope I'm wrong but my gut tells me this online thing has nothing to do with multiplayer to the extent most of us been thinking. How do you justify selling a product that never gets completely saved locally on the consumer end? Why not call it rentware? Thoughts?

[Mootilda 76]

As far as I can tell, Nonny Moose is just speculating that single-player games will be saved online. I really doubt that this will happen.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

As far as I can tell, Nonny Moose is just speculating that single-player games will be saved online. I really doubt that this will happen.

Quite right. I just took it to its logical conclusion. If your solo game affects the "world" economy, it has to at least contribute its stats to the servers.

As to running with all data in possession of the vendor, why should we object? If all you get is a license to play and a userid how is that different from a subscription to a web site? It is not as if you are going to store personal data on this server.

If you object to this idea, then you'd better close your accounts with Twitter and Facebook. Those two can do much more harm than a game.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

As far as I can tell, Nonny Moose is just speculating that single-player games will be saved online. I really doubt that this will happen.

Quite right. I just took it to its logical conclusion. If your solo game affects the "world" economy, it has to at least contribute its stats to the servers.

As to running with all data in possession of the vendor, why should we object? If all you get is a license to play and a userid how is that different from a subscription to a web site? It is not as if you are going to store personal data on this server.

If you object to this idea, then you'd better close your accounts with Twitter and Facebook. Those two can do much more harm than a game.

I don't object to them keeping all the multiplayer data. It's the single player data that I'm concerned with. Obviously the solo mode if playing offline should have a different set of rules when it comes to regional play. I never saw purchasing a game to be the same as joining a website. Sometimes I dont play a city for months and I like to come back to it the same way I left it in a local folder. That's what I would expect from a full solo mode.

[Mootilda 76]

If you object to this idea, then you'd better close your accounts with Twitter and Facebook. Those two can do much more harm than a game.

That would be very hard, since I don't have accounts with Twitter or Facebook.

Again, I doubt that EA will force us to store our single-player games online. Although I understand that this is something that you want, I'll wait until EA tells us before I start worrying about it.

[jacksunny 741]

TBH, I wouldn't mind if they were stored online.

[Mootilda 76]

I might not mind online storage if they could assure me that I could save my game offline if the online connection wasn't available.

Then again, I'd like to be able to start my game, even if the online connection wasn't available.

[Shark7 118]

I might not mind online storage if they could assure me that I could save my game offline if the online connection wasn't available.

Then again, I'd like to be able to start my game, even if the online connection wasn't available.

Yep, that would be nice.

The first time I heard this whole 'cloud' idea I hated it. Still do. Every users data in stored in a server and accessible online? Security risk if you ask me.

[idcaf 65]

meh.. I have decided not to buy this game since the announcement that I have to have an internet connection even if I play offline for god's sake.

I'm not trying to boycott it or something, they just made a huge mistake with this decision and they will realise that when it's too late to fix it.

Otherwise I wish those who decide to sacrifice their internet connection for a game a pleasant experience.

[ziroi 14]

The cloud is here to stay, for better or worse. Typically, cloud-based software such as Dropbox, Google Docs, Office Online, and the like allow you to download a local copy of your content onto your personal computer. Cloud-based games complicate matters of downloading your content to some degree, but one can speculate that Maxis will integrate that sort of feature for solo and perhaps multiplayer cities.

That said, if Simcity is moving to the cloud, it's not a big mistake in my opinion. Since Maxis' developers seem keen on excellent optimization and scalability, especially with the Glassbox engine, this could eventually allow for someone to play a "cloud-based" SimCity on your tablet of choice, or perhaps even your smartphone. You could play SimCity on any computer or device with the game installed; all you need is a connection to the Internet. It's a smart business move, and revenues could increase if it actually played out like that in the future. The benefit for the end user (us) is, ultimately, increased convenience and access, if we choose to use it.

All this, of course, is pure speculation.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

The cloud is here to stay, for better or worse. Typically, cloud-based software such as Dropbox, Google Docs, Office Online, and the like allow you to download a local copy of your content onto your personal computer. Cloud-based games complicate matters of downloading your content to some degree, but one can speculate that Maxis will integrate that sort of feature for solo and perhaps multiplayer cities.

That said, if Simcity is moving to the cloud, it's not a big mistake in my opinion. Since Maxis' developers seem keen on excellent optimization and scalability, especially with the Glassbox engine, this could eventually allow for someone to play a "cloud-based" SimCity on your tablet of choice, or perhaps even your smartphone. You could play SimCity on any computer or device with the game installed; all you need is a connection to the Internet. It's a smart business move, and revenues could increase if it actually played out like that in the future. The benefit for the end user (us) is, ultimately, increased convenience and access, if we choose to use it.

All this, of course, is pure speculation.

How is not having control of when you can play the game convenient? Remember one of the biggest issues is having access to the internet. Though many have internet access, everyone does not share the same circumstances. Why should Sim City as we know it be a cloud based game? They said they are targeting the hardcore fans who been playing for years. Business and graphics related programs I can understand, but a game that is by nature a solo experience seems unnecessary. The only conclusion I can think of is a measure against piracy. There is no good reason a fully solo mode should be axed.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Look folks, if it is true that all saves are on the "cloud", you will have to read your license agreement very carefully. A product like this is not sold, only licensed for use, and you won't have much other than some kind of stub that can connect to the "cloud" and maybe enough code to drive your graphics. One of the things that must be in the licence is the duration. You won't have a license ad infinitum for something that uses someone else's gear.

On the other hand, there is a duty of care at the server end to not withhold access in an unreasonable manner. This pretty much forces them into a 24/7 system with an appropriate Unbreakable Power Supply (UPS). This runs into a lot of money, so it is incumbent on the purchaser to understand what the limitations of the central system are.

One strong earthquake (they are in California) and the whole works could be gone for good. Seems to me that the servers ought to be in a seismically stable area. With the Internet, it doesn't matter if they are in Hull, Quebec (which is very stable). If they fail to provide a contracted service you can sue them for damages or insist on specific performance. Selling a service is much more complicated than selling a take-away product. I doubt that they have really thought through all the internatnational legal implications. And just to make this more binding, this is (only??) a game.

The current EULA displayed by Origin is bloody nonsense, and I suspect it wouldn't hold a candle if anyone really challenged it. They can't contract like that in an international situation. If I have to sign that thing, then I won't be a customer.

  Edited April 5, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[croxis 150]

So far we know only a few things: The EA/Maxis servers deals with data asynchronously. If it was their server's running the city simulation it would have to be synchronous. They also said in a dev block that their servers are dealing with region and global simulation -- the relationship between cities. If they were doing the city simulation I think they would of said so.

[Mootilda 76]

Look folks, if it is true that all saves are on the "cloud", you will have to read your license agreement very carefully. A product like this is not sold, only licensed for use, and you won't have much other than some kind of stub that can connect to the "cloud" and maybe enough code to drive your graphics. One of the things that must be in the licence is the duration. You won't have a license ad infinitum for something that uses someone else's gear.

On the other hand, there is a duty of care at the server end to not withhold access in an unreasonable manner. This pretty much forces them into a 24/7 system with an appropriate Unbreakable Power Supply (UPS). This runs into a lot of money, so it is incumbent on the purchaser to understand what the limitations of the central system are.

I wonder how much "duty of care" is necessary. There is always the argument: "It's only a GAME".

  Edited April 6, 2012 by Mootilda  

[Odainsaker 2,133]

Why should Sim City as we know it be a cloud based game? They said they are targeting the hardcore fans who been playing for years. Business and graphics related programs I can understand, but a game that is by nature a solo experience seems unnecessary. The only conclusion I can think of is a measure against piracy. There is no good reason a fully solo mode should be axed.

Nah, it is not about piracy at all. It is about capturing and locking customers into Origin accounts and eventually subscriptions, advertisement troughs, and personal data mining. All this cloud-dreaming and massively multiplayer global simulation will not come free, and a few ingame ads dressed as city billboards aren't going to cover the very real technical and support overhead. The money will come from player accounts, either directly through subscriptions and DLC or indirectly through account information selling and marketing.

I do play and enjoy subscription-based online games in massively multiplayer settings, but I do not think this format makes sense for SimCity, where most players are essentially handcrafting their own virtual model kits, and trying to force fit all SimCity players into this format in order to boost Origin, in much the same model as the Planet Offer operated and even following lock-step in its birth and development throes, is deeply troubling. Having in exchange for all this a few variables of simulated global economy poking at the fringes does not seem worth it, expecially when the same effect can be loosely approximated without all the additional obstacles and needless requirements. We seem to be fully in the calculating clutches of the marketeers, who are looking to Farmville and Cityville and counting down to the ever closer holy grail of consumer business--perpetual payments.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

So far we know only a few things: The EA/Maxis servers deals with data asynchronously. If it was their server's running the city simulation it would have to be synchronous. They also said in a dev block that their servers are dealing with region and global simulation -- the relationship between cities. If they were doing the city simulation I think they would of said so.

Any transaction program can handle the arrival of asynchronous data without difficulty. This is old technology that I had in use in sites in the 1980s or earlier. I don't see any problem with having one or more copies of the game text in use with virtual memory handling all the paging (hardware paging if they get the right machine). There has to be a time when a synchronization or clean point must occur in the global simulation in order to post results but these can be at any interval that is convenient, or one could simply read out the data from some common memory pool controlled by semaphores during updates. The same applies to any given shared region. All in all, in any system I have used, all of this is fast and transparent to the end user. Only in the case of a deadly embrace rollback did the user even notice a hiccup.

Many systems use XML and fast XML interpreters to transmit data.

  Edited April 6, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[ziroi 14]

How is not having control of when you can play the game convenient? Remember one of the biggest issues is having access to the internet. Though many have internet access, everyone does not share the same circumstances. Why should Sim City as we know it be a cloud based game? They said they are targeting the hardcore fans who been playing for years. Business and graphics related programs I can understand, but a game that is by nature a solo experience seems unnecessary. The only conclusion I can think of is a measure against piracy. There is no good reason a fully solo mode should be axed.

I agree that having to connect to the Internet to play SimCity is not at all convenient. I was referring to the supposed convenience and potential of being able to play your cities on multiple devices. Many of us, (including me) have grown up with the game being "by nature a solo experience", but it's clear that Maxis' focus is for this game to be "a multiplayer experience" now. So, if the game is built around that idea, then perhaps it's logical for them to make a decision to go to the cloud. Maybe not completely or at all, as Nonny Moose pointed out, but structuring the game around this (revenue-generating) possibility from the beginning is easier than wishing they had after the fact.

Maybe EA stipulated that the game had to go this direction for them to publish it in the first place? Who knows.

[SIMpleton 2]

Origin Cloud functionality in other games saves both remotely and locally.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^ Interesting. If you do a save off-line, is it later synched with the server?

[SIMpleton 2]

After crashing in BF3, Origin asks whether you want to use the local or remote save and provides a time/date for the files.

[GrayAnderson 6]

Look folks, if it is true that all saves are on the "cloud", you will have to read your license agreement very carefully. A product like this is not sold, only licensed for use, and you won't have much other than some kind of stub that can connect to the "cloud" and maybe enough code to drive your graphics. One of the things that must be in the licence is the duration. You won't have a license ad infinitum for something that uses someone else's gear.

On the other hand, there is a duty of care at the server end to not withhold access in an unreasonable manner. This pretty much forces them into a 24/7 system with an appropriate Unbreakable Power Supply (UPS). This runs into a lot of money, so it is incumbent on the purchaser to understand what the limitations of the central system are.

I wonder how much "duty of care" is necessary. There is always the argument: "It's only a GAME".

No, it is a contract. At least, that's what gets argued when they complain about piracy. I pay X, and in exchange I get Y. The fact that the contract is for a recreational activity is beside the point; one is paying money for somethng.

Now, whether the contract would hold up under a challenge is always a good question (and one that rarely gets brought up). I'm not a lawyer and I haven't touched anything by Electronic Arse or Origin in a very long time, so I can't say, but it stands to reason that if EA were to require a connection to play and then fail to make sure that their end was functioning (absent an Act of God or somesuch...basically, take some standard of care to make sure that they could provide the connection on "their end"), then one could at least get one's money back and void the contract. If nothing else, you would have a claim of negligence on their part...for example, if they up and sold ten million copies, required the connection, and then didn't have the server capacity to handle a reasonable share of those connections at one time, a claim could be made that they simply shouldn't have sold that much software. What a court would say to that is a good question.

One of the biggest things that would weigh against EA's side in such a case is that the software contract is one of adhesion (i.e. it is a take-it-or-leave-it proposition), and (again, remember that I'm not an attorney and make no representation to the contrary) my understanding is that the courts have taken a somewhat dimmer view of the power of those contracts. After all, let's not forget that shrinkwrap contracts got effectively rejected wholesale back in the 90s (and hence you got the "clickwrap" contracts of today).

[Ocram's Razr 963]

The cloud should be used for multiplayer games and would be good for backups of solo games but I am a staunch supporter of locally saved offline single player games.

[LivingInThePast 364]

I wonder if this will be like Cities XL, where buying SimCity 2013 will get us the game and six free months of online play. Single player would still require an Internet connection most likely.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Everything is on the table, maybe even after E3.

[Linoa06 1,374]

And let me wonder a moment, all of this is fine for rich people who know they'll never loose internet access in very well developed countries.

But what about the moment you go offline? What do you do if you can't retrieve your data?

This cloud thing is just the latest hype for those wealthy people who work hard and don't have to struggle to pay the bills, very nice move from the devs. I'd love it all to be less elitist, though. I'm NOT going to buy that game (not saying I know it'll be a total dissapointment) to find myself dataless the moment I go offline.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

After all the discussion, I am pretty much convinced that the whole game will be in the box, and the Internet will be required only to active the game (once) and to update the global statistics.

[jacksunny 741]

And let me wonder a moment, all of this is fine for rich people who know they'll never loose internet access in very well developed countries.

But what about the moment you go offline? What do you do if you can't retrieve your data?

This cloud thing is just the latest hype for those wealthy people who work hard and don't have to struggle to pay the bills, very nice move from the devs. I'd love it all to be less elitist, though. I'm NOT going to buy that game (not saying I know it'll be a total dissapointment) to find myself dataless the moment I go offline.

Maxis has said that if you go offline while playing, you won't get booted off.

And for the record, you don't have to be rich to have internet. When you say well developed countries, are you saying that everybody in these countries is rich, because that certainly is not the case. If only rich people had internet, do you think EA would be doing this? Absolutely not.

You have 99% of people in one group and 1% in the other, who do you design your product for?

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Looks like 99% of the city builder players want offline mode. So yeah, who are they designing this for?

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Looks like 99% of the city builder players want offline mode. So yeah, who are they designing this for?

The Sims post-sales market, new suckers, and most emphatically not us, in particular.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Well, it's official. SimCity to the clouds......to fly away. Looks like SC4 has some more years of life left. Guess that's good news for those who worked hard and are working hard on the new mods and BATs. But I must say if anyone told me Maxis and EA would do this to SC I would not believe it. Just WOW! I been away for a couple months to come back and the more new info I read the worse this gets. I no longer see a train wreck coming, I see a train that will not get far out the yard. The platforms where passengers were crowding are emptying out. EA is going to press the play button and the railroad is going to stay that transparent grey line which indicates very low usage. They should call it something other than Sim City. Buyers beware.

What really baffles me is the fact that they bring new updates as though we are going to get all excited and go "oh....ok......I really wanted an online cloudbased Sim City where I have no control of my borders and no game saved to my hard drive.....hoorah!" I mean REALLY?

  Edited July 24, 2012 by Mr_Maison