Speculation & Discussion

[Techleo 18]

Actually I use linux at work Moose*chuckles*

I actually think they could make Simcity work on it just fine.

I was just saying Linux isn't a gaming OS more out of the public view of linux.

Not its capacities. After all how many game boxes do you see from major developers with Runs on Linux.

I can think of.. almost none.

Anywho, yeah it would be great and fully possible.

[p5ycho_p3nguin 3]

I'm not so optimistic. When they're charging $20 extra for 3 "city sets" I don't think EA will want to eat into their DLC profits by allowing people to create their own versions of these pricey sets. Maybe they'll set up something similar to an app store where you can charge money for a mod you create and they take a cut, only allowing the mods that they approve. I don't envision them allowing anyone to create anything and distribute it anywhere for free. I trust that Maxis sees the importance of the modding community but I don't trust EA at all.

[tSlater 134]

Again, I point to Civ V which has a bunch of DLCs adding up to more than $20 which give you new civs to play with, and the fact that it is moddable with some mods giving you.. new civs to play with! Both seem to flourish successfully.

[Cockatoo 2,256]

I'm not so optimistic. When they're charging $20 extra for 3 "city sets" I don't think EA will want to eat into their DLC profits by allowing people to create their own versions of these pricey sets. Maybe they'll set up something similar to an app store where you can charge money for a mod you create and they take a cut, only allowing the mods that they approve. I don't envision them allowing anyone to create anything and distribute it anywhere for free. I trust that Maxis sees the importance of the modding community but I don't trust EA at all.

You do raise a good point. But this is Maxis we're talking about here... not just big bad ol' EA. And I think sometimes we do forget that EA owned Maxis at the time of SC4 and even SC3K.

The guys at Maxis are smart. They know how to make a game that'll sell continuously for a decade. Even if there is some short term financial benefit to be had in charging for CC, the long term benefits (continuing game sales) of allowing free custom content to evolve like they did with SC4 would far outweigh it I think. Also, they know they would face a major backlash from this very community if they tried to charge for it. People would revert to SC4 in an instant and their new game would be left for dead within a few years.

As a potential creator for this game... I do like the idea of having more money in my pocket... but I also hate the idea of charging people. And I hate the idea of buying it even more. I think a lot of the current SC4 BATers would feel like this too.

[gutterclub 2,729]

Looking at this game from a BATing point of view, I am looking at the art direction. To me, so far I may add, the buildings look a bit cartoony and being more interested in architecture than the city planning side of things I wonder if BATers will have to completely adapt their art (it is art) to make their own BATs look more cartoony.

I couldn't think of anything better than being able to fully navigate in 3D some of the photorealistic BAts from the likes of PvM, Simfox, Jason, Aaron, Nofunk, Simhottoddy, Cockatoo, PGV in full on 3D and checking out all the tiny details.

This said, it took nearly 10 years to get to this level in SC4 Batting and techniques had to be created to make content fit in with the game. We shall see how it all pans out, but I would like to make content for the game and only really have one BAting style/technique.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

First, it will be a long time before anyone gets good enough to want to publish new things for this version. There is probably a very steep learning curve with integrating a new lot into Glassbox and the rest of the program.

Next, it is an on-line system. This probably means a single repository (cloud?) of objects controlled by the managers of the server(s). It also means an annual license fee in all likelihood. Custom Content Contributors probably will need to be certified and accepted by Maxis, and paid as well. The whole thing is negotiable.

[croxis 150]

First, it will be a long time before anyone gets good enough to want to publish new things for this version. There is probably a very steep learning curve with integrating a new lot into Glassbox and the rest of the program.

Next, it is an on-line system. This probably means a single repository (cloud?) of objects controlled by the managers of the server(s). It also means an annual license fee in all likelihood. Custom Content Contributors probably will need to be certified and accepted by Maxis, and paid as well. The whole thing is negotiable.

I really don't think the engine works that way.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

First, it will be a long time before anyone gets good enough to want to publish new things for this version. There is probably a very steep learning curve with integrating a new lot into Glassbox and the rest of the program.

Next, it is an on-line system. This probably means a single repository (cloud?) of objects controlled by the managers of the server(s). It also means an annual license fee in all likelihood. Custom Content Contributors probably will need to be certified and accepted by Maxis, and paid as well. The whole thing is negotiable.

I really don't think the engine works that way.

Your link doesn't work, so if you have any other evidence ...

[TheRealDeadaim 38]

I don't know why you're presuming it will be pay to play considering there are a ton of online games that aren't.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I just thought of a scary scenario. We now know that GlassBox is simple to extend and one can easily add new types of buildings, agents, resources, rules, and paths. We also know that SimCity Societies was cartoony and childish. Even though one cannot extract 3D models from XAC (the last time I checked 3 years ago or so), some devoted fan of SimCity Societies could potentially create similar buildings and resources as SimCity Societies in the new Cities XL game. So that would mean roughly 200 building models, 2-3 building textures per model (there is slightly over 500 unique objects in the game including decorations/parks and recolors), and new resources for prosperity, devotion, knowledge, productivity, creativity, authority, and the societal values (what type of society it becomes: normal/default/American, capitalist, romantic/European, cyberpunk, small town/agrarian, spiritual/Asian, Orwellian/Authoritarian, spooky/haunted, fun/cartoon, and industrial/robber baron). Think of the horror!

Depending on the building variety that ships with the game and the variety of custom models that can be found, that devoted, crazy SCS fanboy would be able to turn SimCity 2013 into SimCity Societies with mere dozens of models and hundreds of lines of code (double digit building models, triple digit lines of code) with the full functionality of SimCity Societies. The "novel" combination might even revive interest in SimCity Socities *shudder*

  Edited March 9, 2012 by OcramSeattle  

[JanH 5]

I really don't think the engine works that way.

Your link doesn't work, so if you have any other evidence ...

It's blocking you based on the referrer, so either copy the address, paste it into a new tab, and open it there, or simply try this link.

[KeanoManu 42]

Thanks for that link.

I don't like this one though. Does that mean that all saves will be stored at their servers or only if we choose to play it online?

[croxis 150]

JanH link was the one I wanted

All we know at this point is the engine can host the saves online and they are probably planning it, but it is unknown if they HAVE to be online. Wait and see and make sure the devs know offline saving is a feature that you want.

[flowmotion 24]

Next, it is an on-line system. This probably means a single repository (cloud?) of objects controlled by the managers of the server(s). It also means an annual license fee in all likelihood. Custom Content Contributors probably will need to be certified and accepted by Maxis, and paid as well. The whole thing is negotiable.

There would be a lot of advantages to this type of system. It'd be much easier for average players to find custom content if the "store" was integrated directly into the game. (A HTML-based UI makes this possible.) Also EA could apply some basic QC to ensure the buildings didn't conflict or crash the game, and they didn't have 'game breaking' specs. Currently SC4 has a ton of custom content, but it can be hard to find & install for some people, so this seems to be an obvious area for improvement.

I don't really care much for micro-payments or subscriptions, but I suspect designers & modders wouldn't mind if they got their cut.

  Edited March 10, 2012 by flowmotion  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I can see a clear opportunity here for EA/Maxis to spin off a new business. This would make everybody happy as it purchased new gear and started hiring the people to run it. Jobs, jobs, jobs.

[Buggi 684]

Why don't they just use ZIP files? What could the horrible DBPF format give them that ZIP can't?

[croxis 150]

The only thing I can think of is that it has additional metadata that zip files do not, and/or uses a better compression-decompression algorithem that still allows for extracting, or streaming, the file.

[Vahr 341]

Indexing and addressing, mainly (There's not a really decent way to give TGIs to files in a ZIP). ZIP indexes are horrible to work with as well. ZIP also has the issue of being a general format, supporting multiple compression standards, whereas DBPF is well suited for storing assets (although, having a separate directory from the index to store compression data is a bit odd.. it'd be faster to just make it inline with the main index).

EDIT: Here's the format specs.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Why don't they just use ZIP files? What could the horrible DBPF format give them that ZIP can't?

You know, Nick, I thought I had read this whole thread. I don't remember if file formats were even discussed. To what do you have reference?

I should think the DBPF format currently in use should be dropped like a hot rock along with terms like exemplar. There is little advantage in having an internal language with a game that you expect to be user-enhanced. The learning curve for the Glassbox will be steep enough without more complications.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Well, DBPF is the file format used in all Maxis games since 2002.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, DBPF is the file format used in all Maxis games since 2002.

And ten years later, can you cite any overwhelming advantages?

[Vahr 341]

Its changed since 2002 (Spore uses DBPF 2.0, the structure is rather different). But mostly, the single big advantage is the binary index - you don't need a string parser to assign resource IDs and to identify the file.

The SC4 DBPF (1.0 I believe) index goes as such (all items are 32 bit unsigned integers (DWORD))

• Type ID
• Group ID
• Instance ID
• Offset
• Size

This is augmented by a directory file which stores compressed file information such as compression type, decompressed size, etc. (ideally Maxis should have this integrated in the master index, which would make read speeds even faster at the expense of a larger file (a few bytes per entry)). Files that are written many times (ie saved city files) usually have a CRC in their internal header.


ZIPs are structured by files, with an index at the end. Each file has a header consisting of

• Signature
• Version
• "General purpose bit flag"
• Compression method
• Modification time
• Modification date
• CRC
• Compressed Size
• Uncompressed Size
• Name length
• Extra field length
• Name (String)
• Extra field (String)

The index has all of the above entries as well as offset position, attributes, and extra comments.

So in essence, ZIPs are rather redundant in their structure which is good for archiving files from a normal filesystem on disk which are identified by location and name and can be of any type. DBPFs are specialized for a resource ID driven paradigm - they provide only the bare bones of whats needed.

[swamp_ig 1]

I would have thought it shouldn't be too hard to have both modding and no 'cheating'. Just have a few rules about how tradeoffs occour.

If you've used the CAM, you know there's a relation between the volume of a building and the building stage and capacity. Just use this kind of rule to work out what your modded object does.

So if you want to create a box factory, you build the model, import it into your addon maker saying it produces boxes. The maker then measures the volume of the factory then the maker presents you with a series of interlinked sliders:

Workers in, Polution out, Box production rate, worker education level.

The range of production rate is worked out according to the volume, and if you slide up the rate then the polution and workers in also slide up.

You can lock the production rate if you want, which then restricts the range of the other parameters. You tweak the sliders until you get what you want, and then the maker spits out an addon file. The addon can then be shared using whatever mechanism maxis comes up with.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Getting back to the database. I think the SQL format is what should be used. It would take the mystery out of a lot of the structures simply by the presence of the schema which could be accessed by interested users. The DBPF format has no such it, I believe. If they really want people to be able to do modding, it would be simpler to use a standard database model. This would have to be guarded by a set of access control lists (ACLs) as to who could do what. This kind of thing is built into most SQL implementations.

Modders could have general read rights on the databases, but could write only on the parts of it they have created. Modders should also be able to restrict access to incomplete structures until they have checked out their mod privately and are ready for exposure testing.

All this is part of the SQL standard, so why stick to a system that is not well known nor widely published?

The same needs to apply to the Glassbox encoding. The need for secrecy to protect program copyrights is understood, but I don't believe handsprings are necessary.

The most secure operating system, Multics, has its complete source code published.

[deanej 2]

I'd much rather they use the XML, python, and SDK (C++ DLL) model Civilization IV used. Not only is it more powerful for modding, it's easier to use to make simple mods (not just BATs).

The multiplayer issues are easily resolved if Maxis restricts mods in multiplayer to those that don't cheat while allowing SP to be modded freely (though they'd have to give up the idea of everyone being tied to the global marketplace).

[croxis 150]

SQL doesn't perform very well for binary blob content like models and textures so as a data storage format it isn't great. Civ V does a hybrid approach by using a database (I think it is sql) at runtime but it is populated by xml.

EA?Maxis isn't the only game that uses DBPF-style files. In fact it is an exception to find a non-indi game that doesn't use something similar, because it works much better than SQL, zips, or just having a bunch of files scattered around the harddrive.

I too would love to see something like Civ IV model. The way the engine is designed it almost lends itself to Civ IV's model.

[Buggi 684]

I just remember having to hack my way through their encryption and then compression before I was able to finally crack the exemplar format.

Yeah, Buggi the exemplar cracker to all you young'ins Once the encryption was reversed and the compression deflated I just hex edited my way through.

Of course we didn't have all the fancy tools you modders have these days... back in the day it was HEX workshop. And we LIKED IT!

Hahaha... now I feel old. -.-

[DavidB_ 83]

Well, there will be a different set of tools, so nobody get too excited as yet.

Now if they are bothering for MAC, why not pick up the same level of market share with Linux? Conditional compiles are easy. I'd like to have a native code version. Linux and MAC OS/X are not that different. And if this is released on DVD, there is no reason that all platforms can't be on the same disk. If it is on-line distribution, it is even easier.

Please, EA, no more Microshaft lock-ins. I hope Glassbox is OpenGL. This would mean that pretty much any decent graphics package can be used for modeling. Blender, for example.

Let the excitement die down. We are giving our server a heart attack, or at least hardening of the arteries. It has gone down twice on me today.

Yes, we need versions for Mac and Linux. Very important imo. May I suggest an "App Store" type mod database, run in collaboration with modders? This system would feature an exchange similar to the STEX, tight integration with the game (including the activation/deactivation of individual mods when required, automatic installation and update) and more! This would probably involve submissions requiring approval, sandboxing, and multi-player restrictions on money trees and such radical things.

I hope EA/Maxis are paying attention to these forums!

Update: Didn't see that several of you were already discussing an "App Store" idea, sorry!

  Edited March 16, 2012 by DAB_City  

[jacksunny 741]

I hope EA/Maxis are paying attention to these forums!

I'm sure they are very aware of everything that goes on around here.

[Hiramas 4]

As a mod user rather than a modder, I have just one big wish: NO MORE DEPENDENCIES, please!

Integrate everything needed into the model. That would be nice.