SimCity: Multiplayer Discussion

[LivingInThePast 364]

I'm sad I missed the days of LAN parties. In the dorms on campus, shortly after being wired with the Internet, there was always a 24-hour DOOM marathon. Unfortunately, the most frequent players failed out of school.

I guess the "full online" experience is just another way games are turning us into sociopaths...

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The number of people in any reasonable geographic spot who are capable of producing the necessary simulation to replace the "global economy" and support a private server is very limited. Dream on, dream on.

Multi-player with on-line interaction requires a large transaction oriented server. Even if each player is confined to his own city, and only the "export" effects are carried into the "global economy", the updates must be central and pretty frequent. In particular, something has to be done very quickly to handle Sims looking for an external job.

  Edited April 13, 2012 by A Nonny Moose  

[Mark Waybill 242]

I wouldn't be surprised if one day we become Sims... And thus ironically we turn in the reverse direction from being sociopathic nerds obsessed with these wonderful new 'computing machines' into everyday Joes who laugh at the old 'Previrtual' society...

[NCGAIO 562]

Just to ask if anyone else would laugh about it?

"" shacknews : Besides polluting the region, what are some other things players can do to screw over other players?""

"" Kip Katsarelis's : [Laughs] There are lots of ways, as we're finding out. The more integrated cities become, the more you can screw with one another. Once you're sharing water, power, things like that, you can always cut those things off, cut off workers, or cut off jobs. Crime's another example of something that one city can create—that casino city created all this crime, and it will start spilling over into neighbors' cities. Pollution in many forms—-air pollution, water pollution, things like that--are a couple of obvious ones.""

( Kip Katsarelis's - SimCity Lead Producer Electronic Arts )

Source: http://www.shacknews.com/article/73061/one-on-one-with-simcitys-mayor - by Jason Wilson

Starting to think that this new model of thinking about simcity not quitewhat the community would want!

  Edited April 15, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[Mark Waybill 242]

Yeah it sounds pretty stupid, considering how the global economy will affect everything, and how this game is the complete antithesis of WOW or what have you.

But, of course, naturally like with many things there is always a humurous point of view regarding it.

I would definitely, however, like to see some amount of authority invested in the founding mayor or group of mayors, in order that public or 'open' regions that attract a troll could expel them and reverse any damage done by trolls, or inflict penalties in a realistic Un style way like financial or trade penalties.

[jacksunny 741]

I really don't understand this argument that a "troll" is going to ruin your cities. You get to choose the people you want for multiplayer, if you think somebody is just going to be a nuisance, don't let them in. It's simple. I highly doubt anybody that is your "friend" would purposely wreck your cities.

[Mark Waybill 242]

Well I was talking about open regions, where a founding Mayor lets new Mayors join who aren't necessarily his IRL friends, like with Cityville. Take me for instance. Nobody I know plays SC, although some used to. Only a small number have played Cityville, and when I was playing Cityville most of my CV neighbours were randoms who I added at Facebook at a CV page. I daresay it would thus be useful for some powers of authority in a founding Mayor if he/she wished to create a public region. And the authority itself is of course not just about punishing trolls but coordinating in general and basic guidelines. A founding Mayor who wishes to have a art deco region and finds his inferiors building postmodern structures will naturally find such a situation somewhat disagreeable.

[Odainsaker 2,134]

Resource trading is the common and easiest way of game design for multiplayer, and I can see why the developers went that tried-and-true direction, but I must admit I always had a slightly different idea for collaborating cities. In reality, few cities are single-mayor, god-dictated schemes, but are instead layered build-ups of many ideas, some of which may be complementary, some conflicting, some overwriting, but all of which make the planning process much more complex and interesting. This is city as a "palimpsest," a build-up of layers and fragments from development over time, a notion derived from ancient manuscripts where original text was often overwritten with new text when the media material was reused, but leaving the enough of the original text buried underneath to be uncovered by archaeology. Part of visiting and exploring a city is immersion in the wonders of this type of urban growth. One way to do this was through an openly shared city that successive mayors tinker with, but complexities of trading whole cities among players has limited this option. A segregated multiplayer region of cooperating cities is a great step and gets us partially there, but the layered pattern is typically lost in the discreet divisions of game area.

Somehow, we want to be working in the same city, designing competing plans on top of plans, but still give the single player the default control of their own game. On way to do this is to begin with something like a Planning Layers tool, where players can place a draft design overlays over a given city as a way of working out ideas and leaving guide plans without explicitly affecting their actual built city. Players can position roads and plop landmarks or zones to see how everything will fit and look before executing it in their actual city, and this plan can sit in unobtrusively in the background, perhaps waiting for the player to acquire enough funds to continue with the next piece. They can follow through with their own design if they wish, or ignore it and build to their whims. This is meant here as an insightful tool for convenience, not a requirement.

Of course, if a single mayor can draw out a design idea for his own city on a Master Plan overlay, why not allow others in multiplayer to have general viewing access of an online city and contribute their own additional overlays. The original player, looking through all the submitted overlays, can see the wealth of ideas and choose the designs or parts of design that are most appealing to them and actually implement it to his city at leisure. This allows others to loosely play with and contribute to the designs of their neighbors, while still giving the single original mayor the final say.

Perhaps a mayor says, "I have this broad valley of land, how might I develop it?" and then allows for submission of proposals in the form of viewable overlays. Other players access whatever is the current form of the online city and its Master Plan such that they can lay out roads or zones or landmarks on a new overlay, and then upload the overlay back for the original mayor to access and consider. It is not necessary that the overlays be in real time or perfectly match the original city, and they would never overwrite it, but they would be accessibly to the original mayor such that he could view it much like a transparency over their actual city. One proposal has a dense grid, another has a central park, while still another has a central avenue...the mayor can pick and choose the favored pieces of plans and integrate them in cut-paste-merge fasion into their own Master Plan or just outright implement the best as the money allows or even completely ignore them all. Our cities can become build-ups of design ideas from numerous contributing people, while multiplayer gameplay also refocuses away from the familiar and typical spreadsheet resource accumulation and competitive trading, to the simple creative joy of drawing out cities, which is what most of us are here for anyway. We would essentially be playing mini-simcity sandbox games on each other's cities, which is probably the closest we can get in online game form to a real world city design charrette or urban planning public workshop:

"Player X makes beautiful manicured parks and shows them off online...maybe I can invite Player X to design a central park for my city, which will be admired online as the envy of SimWorld." "Player X's design is sooo beautiful...yikes, my Master Plan has a future rail line going through the area, following an elaborate transportation plan worked out between Player Y, Player Z, and myself long before I thought of having a central park there. Arrrg, compromises and decisions...wait, Player Z suggests a sunken rail here...nah, a rail bypass through the low income neighborhood is less expensive. Hmmm, Player X's plan called for willow trees by the lagoon, but I'm going to use cherry blossoms instead."

Amusingly, I play a drawing game with friends where one starts a partial random drawing and passes it to the next person to add additional random elements, who then passes it on back or to the next person to add yet a bit more elements, until after several cycles a complete, but amusingly unexpected, final picture is collectively drawn.

  Edited April 15, 2012 by Odainsaker  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I am starting to get the impression that most current players are uninterested in multi-player. If this is truly the case, this is going to be a bust on the multi-player side and will be the usual failure.

I count myself as one of the non-multi-players.

[LivingInThePast 364]

I'm not opposed to multiplayer, but...Origin. That, and it really depends on who I'm playing with and what the "rules" are. If it was just sewage/water/power, that would be pretty great, or if we could bounce ideas off of each other, like odainsayer was saying. But if we all start "running out of oil" or some BS like that, then, well, I don't know.

[NCGAIO 562]

I am starting to get the impression that most current players are uninterested in multi-player. If this is truly the case, this is going to be a bust on the multi-player side and will be the usual failure.

I count myself as one of the non-multi-players.

You can be absolutely sure that you are not alone friend. For those whoare curious about the subject give the suggestion to do a Google searchon the theme " simcity always online " and see the result.

Unfortunately this will not bring any change in the market line that EA has held on its products. For those who have any doubts about makingthe reservation or not the game give here another small suggestion - Read the EULA page of Origin

http://tos.ea.com/le...a/US/us/ORIGIN/

If do not like reading long texts... read these items:

2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

3. Application and Communications Conduct / Privacy Settings

5. System Interaction.

6. Termination.

Amazing is that this is proposed in the largest democracy in the world!

For those who argue about moding such specially selected this stretch!

"" Except, and only to the Extent That may be Permitted underApplicable law, you may not decompile, disassemble, or reverseengineer the Application by any means whatsoever, or alter, modify,Enhance, or create a derivative work of the Application. ""

At least you will not be able to say they bought a pig in a poke!

  Edited April 15, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[Tarkus 6,932]

Well I was talking about open regions, where a founding Mayor lets new Mayors join who aren't necessarily his IRL friends, like with Cityville.

While I'm sure you could do that with the new game if you really wanted, the important thing to consider is the fact that such an approach is, contrary to popular misconception (embodied by the phrase "trolling my cities"), not forced upon the player, nor does it seem to be the type of scenario that the game's developers have in mind. You have control. You can do that if you want, but you don't have to, and I'd imagine 99% of the people won't (including those doing multiplayer).

-Tarkus

[Mark Waybill 242]

Odainsaker's suggestion is IMO a good one, and I have always thought that plans created with the Planning Tool (if it is created) should be accessible in a similar way to mods. I believe that if there was enough flexibility in Multiplayer, we could have various systems. My suggestion of a heirarchy or Regional Council may be a tad idealistic, but just having competition/cooperation between cities in a region creates a dynamic administrative dance.

Odainsaker's notion of a palimpsest I agree with. One of the things that 'curvy roads' will bring is the ability to make more unique cities. Any city limited by grid or diagonal 45 degree roads will have similarities to other cities, whereas unique curves and juxtapositions that arise out of curvy roads will allow for properly individual cityscapes.

Cooperation/competition as in real life Councils between each other creates an interesting dynamic dance of interaction and result. But the issue arises of resource trading. Most of this is inter-city, not inter-council. If a Region was large enough we could have Councils instead of cities, and cities would be boroughs within each Council zone, so for instance, with the local Illawarra region, we would have the Wollongong, Shellharbour and Kiama government regions, with the individual 'cities' or suburbs within.

I think that such a two layered regional heirarchy, whether with a Council or with equal land owners, would be necessary to create a realistic interaction and result of realistic processes that give rise to orderly but still organic landscapes that we see in real life cities and which give that pleasing aesthetic feel. And I concur with the sentiment above about drawing cities. Drawing cities is what got me into this game. When I discovered Simcity 2000 on a second hand pc in 2003 it was like discovering El Dorado.

However I am optimistic regarding multiplayer. I would prefer a single player mode, but if one wished to connect with the global marketplace after a while that could be unrealistic, having a city suddenly appear out of nowhere fully formed. For experimentations and mods they would need some sandbox mode I should think. Of course a future possibility would be having a new SimPlanet with controllable resource/economy levels for each new region we create, either stored locally or on the 'cloud' space.

[LivingInThePast 364]

Keep in mind that although SimCity '13 won't have day one mods, it's possible it may not have mods at all. Sure, <a href="http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/28/simcity-will-not-support-mods-at-launch/">Maxis would like them</a>, but have no idea how to really implement it, and the Great EA Overlords might ban it, despite whatever their slave-studio wants.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

SimCity 4 did not have modding support at release, neither did Cities XL. Both now have a burgeoning modding community. I expect the same for this upcoming game.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

The topic is... "Simcity Multiplayer Discussion"

Thanks

Craig-Abcvs

Moderator

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Thank you for the reminder, Craig. I would love to play multiplayer with my friends dunbrine, hamburgzero, austere, and jetstone or any other friends or Simtropolites that would like to play with me. Although, I hope it does not prevent graphical mods and extra building diversity from being implemented.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Thank you for the reminder, Craig. I would love to play multiplayer with my friends dunbrine, hamburgzero, austere, and jetstone or any other friends or Simtropolites that would like to play with me. Although, I hope it does not prevent graphical mods and extra building diversity from being implemented.

The whole thing would depend on a common repository for custom content, if any. Initially, there probably won't be any, so it is a bridge to be crossed after the release.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

Judging by the CXL experience, custom content (espeically mods) and multi-player don't seem to sit very well with each other... or at least throw up some vexing dilemmas.

How do you make gameplay 'fair' if player X is using a money mod?... yada yada... 10 years of SC4 has shown us, that every player likes to play differently and many people have different views on how the game should be played... 'what consitutes a cheat?... or is it simply playing the game the way you want to...?'

If I had to choose between great custom content and mods (as we have known it in SC4) and multi-player, multi-player would lose in a heart beat.

From where I currently sit, multi-player looks like everyone has to play the same vanilla game, by the same vanilla rules, wearing the same vanillia straight jacket.

Maybe I want sprinkles with my vanilla... problem is some people might want nuts, and I hate nuts on vanilla...

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Actually I prefer a banana split. I turn off some of the micromanagement by using some special lots I created way back when.

[Ocram's Razr 963]

Money cheats would not be allowed in multiplayer, obviously but I think that "texture packs" and building clones (I make a slim 64 story skyscraper on a 4x4 lot and tell the game to give it the same statistics as a wide 60 story skyscraper on 4x4 lot, only this is going to be in the UK pack and not the American pack because it is based off a real building in London) would be reasonable. It would be like the Building architect tool without iLive Reader, you make a building model and then give it the same info as a preexisting one.

[Mark Waybill 242]

I agree with OcramSeattle. Some mods, of a purely aesthetic nature, would be fine, it would only be 'cheat' or enhancement mods that make gameplay easier or different that shouldn't be allowed. Then again if you're playing with other people consentingly in the first place it's likely you'll have things in common with the way you play the game, and if a group of Mayors is planned before a region is started, then they would be in agreement with one another. The whole point of 'random adding' and public regions is new experiences and experimental city designing, not predictable blueprint looks like clone of end result weaknesspays building.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Initial budgets have to be either zero balances or something usable. The 100K Simoleons in SC4 hard mode pretty much confines the player to a rural beginning and very slow building until a reasonable income is assured.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

Money cheats would not be allowed in multiplayer,...

it would only be 'cheat' or enhancement mods that make gameplay easier or different that shouldn't be allowed.

See this is my point... who is to say what is a 'cheat' and what is not? Who gets to make the 'rules'? Who decides 'what is allowed'? What if I don't want to play by those rules?

For example in SC4 I use a Simolean Modd. Now some would label such a mod as a 'cheat'... however for me I might argue that the vanilla start up of 500K is not 'realistic'. Maybe I can't be bothered with all the micro managing of budgets and sliders and taxes et. al... now this is not to say that having budgets and limited cash is wrong, but maybe I just want to play the game without having to worry about all that.

The advantage of single player as it is in SC4 is that I can play exactly the way I want to and no one can tell me that this or that is 'not allowed'... however it all changes when we start talking about multi-player, because obviously there is a need for everyone to fall in line, march to the same beat, follow the same rules, salute on cue, cry on cue, clap on cue...

...and before we know it we will no longer have 'Mayors'... we will have a 'Dear Leader'...

[Mark Waybill 242]

This is why I suggested a Regional Authority in the founding mayor or a collaboration of founding mayors, so that each region's rules are decided before play begins. However the global economic aspect would make difficulties arise there.

Possibly certain things could be flexible. After all if we can terraform a region I assume the amount and type of resources available are to some extent user defined? If so allowing one region or city extra cash at start would hardly be unrealistic, but naturally there would have to be limits. The whole area looks like a diplomatic nightmare to me, and I pride myself on finding rational third party solutions to these types of problems...

If we only have one simEarth to begin with, this could be seen in an experimental light. CXL Planet Offer done a second time but properly? We could learn from that experience. In fact if data from previous versions/releases of the game could be in a Classic/2000 manner adapted to the new game there wouldn't be an issue with experimental stages because we could ride them out and then upload our cities into whatever new game version we wished to.

The global economic aspect would naturally for realistic purposes require a limitation on initial funds. So I can see how 'ideal city' creators would cringe at the thought of being influenced by that, even if they didn't contribute. All I can suggest is that the initial funds are somehow based like with a mining company initial investment, on prospecting data on resources. A regions potential worth defines it's initial budget?

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I certainly hope custom games (choose initial start cash), and either a sandbox mode or cheating allowed in single player mode but fair is fair and one needs to prevent abuse of the multiplayer system.

[cirugo 1,889]

http://www.gamezone.com/products/simcity/news/simcity-s-mandatory-internet-connection-totally-worth-having

"According to producer Jason Haber, the constant internet connection is "totally worth having." And come E3, fans will see why.

"From the ground up it's been a multiplayer game," Haber said. "I'm not surprised we're getting some reaction like this. But I think once people see it in action - and at E3 we're really looking forward to showing people multiplayer and how it works - hopefully that will show them why it's such a great feature and it's totally worth having.""

They're going the Monte Cristo route...shoving multiplayer down the throats of people for whom that aspect of the game is the least important. We shall see how this plays out.

[croxis 150]

They could of prevented this if they had examples in their GDC demonstration, chances are it wasn't even ready yet and they didn't want to show anything until they delivered.

Also just because CXL had multiplayer doean't mean it will be the same game as CXL. We just have to play the wait and see game until E3.

[Asheroo 53]

They really aren't giving up are they? They think we have no idea what multiplayer is like. From that quote above about how E3 may change our minds, I feel like Maxis think we are stupid or something for very much disliking multiplayer. They know there is a bunch of negative feedback but they have no idea why. Can't they see that a lot of us in the city building game crowd don't actually want such a challenge and love these games because we can build the city of our dreams with 'sandbox' modes or cheats? That's why I buy the games. No 'sandbox' mode or cheat for me is a no buy as I'm not up for that challenge, particularly online when the resources and prices will be affected by every player. It's a shame.

E3 will change nothing. Multiplayer still means restricted freedom to build the city of your dreams, no money cheats, no sandbox mode, no fixed resource prices = no city of your dreams.

It's an incredible shame, and yet apart from that Sim City is looking brilliant.

Anyways, I'm gonna write an email to Maxis for the heck of it. And everyone should. They might not read some emails, but they will be scared if all the sudden in their inbox they see an ocean of complaints against multiplayer asking for a true single player mode. Even RockPaperShotgun want people to act against it - http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/28/simcity-to-be-crippled-by-always-on-lets-change-this/

[cirugo 1,889]

Also just because CXL had multiplayer doean't mean it will be the same game as CXL. We just have to play the wait and see game until E3.

You might be right...and I might even enjoy it and want to play it...but that's not the point. The point is that I REALLY want to buy the latest version of SimCity but they are FORCING me into multiplayer if I do. And, no, having my own solo region while still being plugged into the global marketplace which is affected by everyone else online is NOT solo.