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Pengwuino

Why shoot for HT industry?

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So in a few cities I've built (one 400k and one 200k with the usual smaller cities of industry nearby), I always instinctively tried to go towards the high tech industries. However, after building 2 cities with many thousands of high tech jobs, I start to wonder what the point is? They take up so much space yet bring in very little income. Personally I notice commercial brings in a ton of income vs. how much space they take. Plus they create a lot more jobs and it seems like they don't take disproportionate amount of power/water compared to industry.

Heck, my best little mini-city (a nice 130k residential area) maintains the highest profit per month with 0 industry and just commercial. Can someone explain this? What is the real need for industry in a big city? I'm sure I could get dirty industry and tax them to hell and make a decent income but they have all sorts of problems. Same deal with manufacturing.

What's the dealio? And I already know theres a couple buildings you can get with a lot of HT jobs but it still doesn't seem to add up.

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I like High Tech because of no/low pollution, and it show that your people are smart. Also, I think that it gives you a lot of reward buildings, like Hydrogen Power Plants and a Space Shuttle Launcher.

I've also noticed that it makes little money, so I just zone more, and rely on commercial taxes.

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  • Original Poster
  • Commercial buildings don't pollute either as far as I know, though. Also, sure, I can get the power plant and a space shuttle... but at the price of 1/3 of my cities acreage? The hydrogen plant seems like a waste since I could buy 3 nuclear plants for a little extra but save per MWh. I have yet to have a power plant go BOOM on me. There has to be a reason HT is so coveted... especially since every time I build a city, an area of HT probably supplies a paltry 300 jobs or so.

    Reaching 25,000 HT jobs sounds like a ridiculous feat. I almost feel like I'd have to make the entire city one HT wonderland in order to achieve that.

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  • Original Poster
  • Hmm, do R$$$ really have that big of a problem with Cs and Co? This might be good considering I'm getting tired of all these dang poor people in my cities 3.gif. They're so annoying! One time 4 of those big brown brick looking high rises popped up simultaneously in one of my areas and I immediately was blasted with messages about my power, water, hospital, and schools all crying.

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    i've changed methods of building and found for the best ht you must put it all in one city... try to have residents in one city, commerical in an adjacent, and industry in another.with adequate transportation to all areas of each city so your sims can travel from one area to another...

    your industry city should be the one supplying power and taking the garbage from adjacent cities. your commerical will be selling the water and your residental will get the civic buildings.

    once you have the ground work laid out you need to start 3 more cities in so that the new residental city abuts the old commerical and industrial city, your new commercical abuts the new and old residents and your industry does the same as commerical...(it can get pretty tricky)

    use el rails and subways to connect the industry and residents and monorail to connect the commercial... also make sure your only road neighbor connections are highways as traffic is going to get really out of had with any other road network.

    once you have your new industry created you can begin buying the garbage heap you have in the old industry and demolsihing all dirty power producers from your old industry... if all your business have workers they should start making money and im confident that the demand will be high.

    you must jump around quite a bit... load your resiental city, when demand drops to the negatives, load the city that still has demand, but not the one with the highest demand... when you load that city you will see their buildings built and demand will change... always load the city that is in second in demand... when everything tapers off and is pretty equal you will have a nice region

    place water treatment plants in your original industry city to entice clean manufacturing and ht jobs.

    after playing with seperate cities you will find the rest pretty self explanitory

    the best place to start everything is where 3 borders create a 'T"

    i can produce pictures or elaborate a bit... but ht isnt useless... unless you only like to look at the r$ highrises

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    it feeds back on it's self r$$$ attract ht and ht attracts r$$$. you supply the place for them to grow w/ low pollution, civic structures, power, and waste management

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    Actually industry isn't needed at all. If you have an educated workforce, CO$$$ and CO$$ will be the primary employers; and those actually driving R and subsequently CS demand.

    Industry is only needed for cick-starting your region, when your workforce is still uneducated, and you need some jobs, able to support certain population levels (which you will have to educate). Then the space it takes makes it rather disadvantageous, and should preferably be replaced with CO.

    Look out with IHT, there's a bug causing no R$$$ employment!!! The Maxis (original) settings for IHT are 10% $, 80% $$ and 10% $$$. Due to some bug, the game cannot handle equal percentages ($=$$$ here), and as a result there's no R$$$ employment in IHT, only R$ and R$$, 10% and 80% respecively (of the # of jobs reported in the query). There's a mod on the STEX that changes this to 10-75-15%, thus fixing this problem. It also includes a similar fix to the Solar Powerplant. You can also get the same effect (along with many others) by installing the BSC's CAM. But there's still another problem, the modified exemplars do not "replace" the originals, they somehow "add to" them. As a result, you need x2 the jobs to support the same population. The ultimate fix is to merge the modified exemplars into simcity_1.dat, replacing the originals. The reader can't do this, you need SC4DatPacker. And of course backup simcity_1.dat before merging. More detailed instructions on SC4D.

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    Personally I prefer Commercial to Industrial; I tend to zone over industrial to make way for high end commercial after a while not just for the profit but for the land value improvements. I don't necessarily think it brings in more income though, as when dirty industry demand hits rock bottom - as it tends to in well educated cities - slamming their taxes up to 20% brings in a fortune,

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  • Original Poster
  • On a related note, I wonder if there is a NEED to have a lot of Cs$. It's ALWAYS maxed in the RCI demand and I never have tried laying out large zones for them just to see what pops up. I have a few cities with pretty much flat Cs$$, Cs$$$, and Co's, I should try to just lay out a massive commercial zone.

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    Well, strictly speaking there's no "NEED" for any specific type of development, you can develop your cities the way you wish. However, if you want large populations you must provide employment for your sims. Now, let's see what this employment can be:

    - Civic buildings: they provide a fixed number of jobs, no matter how much you fund them. Building more than those you need is a waste, they cost a lot and the number of jobs they provide is small, esp for a large city.

    - Industry: as said above it pollutes, requires a lot of power, the number of jobs it provides is relatively small (for the space it takes), and your environmental score will sink. Even its best subtype (I-HT) creates only 10% (or 15% modded, otherwise it's actually 0) R$$$ jobs! So I think it's rather disadvantageous for anything but kick-starting your city or region (you can easily attract a consideable population early on, which you will then have to educate). Actually, with an uneducated workforce, I-D (along with farms) is actually the only way to make something bigger than a small village.

    - Commercial Offices: these are the best and biggest employers. However they need an educated workforce (which you can't have early on, not even later in the game, with a fast R influx, as newcommers have an EQ of only 20). If you have a good educational coverage, EQ will be rising year by year, but falling sharply every time your population grows fast, starting another cycle and so on. Another problem is that CO demand can be easily exhausted (satisfied). After a couple of mid/hi-rises develop, it can easily flat out, and not rise before you create more educated workers (but this takes time).

    - Commercial Services: these aren't as good employers as CO (even CS$$$ actually employs an awful bunch of R$), but pay high taxes, even the poorest CS$ type! And can employ a significant number of sims, which you otherwise could only employ in industry. With CS development you will get more taxes, need less power and water, and have less pollution. Not to mention that these may be upgraded to CO some time in the future. CS$ demand is not always maxed out as you said, most probably you haven't developed your commercial areas enough. CS demand in general differs, in that it follows population, not workforce growth, ie it regards sims more as "consumers" rather than "workers" (then CS development creates additional jobs, of course). R$ pop drives CS$ demand, R$$ pop CS$$ and R$$$ CS$$$. You can easily understand how CS works, if you view them as "shops" or "stores". And of course it's impossible to develop and support a city with CS jobs only, you also need CO and/or I.

    So my advice is that if your city or region (remember, demand is regional) needs more jobs, attempt to exhaust commerial demand (of any kind) first, before zoning more industrial.

    The problem with CS$ is that there are no buildings/lots with enough capacity, to satisfy all this demand. The "best" I have seen are some stores, growing on 1x3 or 1x2 high-density lots and providing some 150 jobs. These can grow along roads with medium traffic, but not very expensive. I was planning making a few 2x3 CS$ midrises with some 400 jobs at stage 5 or 6, but haven't started yet. You can also try my Logistics Centres (link in my sig). The CS$ lot provides more than 1000 jobs, but requires 10x10 space too. Maybe I should start a new thread about CS$, calling more BATters to contribute.


      Edited by cogeo  

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  • Original Poster
  • Thank you for the detailed reply cogeo! That is a lot of good information.

    Last night, I tried something out. I wondered if I could use one of the small cities to put a dent in the C$ demand. I built a decent highway system into 2 neighboring zones and just built a ton of medium density commercial. Well, the C$ immediately popped to 2500 jobs and immediately collapsed as Cs$$ took its place. To start out, everything non-Cs$ was pretty much flat in demand in line with regional demand. However, that apparently was a non-issue as one I laid out the zoning and gave it a couple years, Cs$$ dominated.

    The funny part was that the city had a 125% budget surplus which I thought was hilarious. It gave me great ideas on how to build up cities from now on since I'm always struggling budget-wise.

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    If you were to compare the best of the 3 job types: Commercial Services$$$, Commercial Office$$$ and Industry Hightech$$$.

    I'd rank them: 1 CO$$$,  2 IHT$$$ then 3 CS$$$.

    CO$$$ creates demand for the highest percentage of R$$$/ 100 jobs whereas IHT ranks second in R$$$ demand creation.

    IHT$$$ creates demand for the most  R$$ jobs and the least R$ jobs/100 jobs created.

    CS$$$ creates demand for the lowest percentage of R$$$ and R$$ demand and the by far highest percetage of R$ jobs.

    So IHT$$$ creates a demand profile for R$.$$ and$$$ that indirectly increases residential taxs.

    IHT$$$ is like CS$$$ in that the number of jobs created per tile even at high density is low whereas CO$$$ can create a lot of jobs per tile used.

    The basic breakdown of demand(not counting government service jobs) when education is over 150  is that 25% of your workforce is in Commercial Services, 50% is in Commercial Office and 25% is in Hightech. So of course your total commercial taxes will be about 3 times greater than your high tech taxes.

    If hightech was capable of the same type of jobs/tile as commercial office I'd rate it tied with commercial office.


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    Originally posted by: Pengwuino

    Thank you for the detailed reply cogeo! That is a lot of good information.

    Last night, I tried something out. I wondered if I could use one of the small cities to put a dent in the C$ demand. I built a decent highway system into 2 neighboring zones and just built a ton of medium density commercial. Well, the C$ immediately popped to 2500 jobs and immediately collapsed as Cs$$ took its place. To start out, everything non-Cs$ was pretty much flat in demand in line with regional demand. However, that apparently was a non-issue as one I laid out the zoning and gave it a couple years, Cs$$ dominated.

    The funny part was that the city had a 125% budget surplus which I thought was hilarious. It gave me great ideas on how to build up cities from now on since I'm always struggling budget-wise.

    quote>

    Budget wise the best thing to do is force the R$ to live crammed in 1x1 low density residential. 

    The worst thing to do is let them live in medium density, high density is better than medium density for R$.

    The second worst thing is to let R$ with low education drive your cities growth. I always set taxes on CS$ and I$ dirty to 20%.

    Another bad budget thing is to let R$$ and R$$$ demand on the RCI fall below zero.

    That means their aren't enough R$$ or R$$$ jobs for their respective workforces, which means their commute times will shoot up as they spend time trying to find non existent jobs. Soon after no job zots appear and R$ move into their abandoned buildings.

    At low density R$ pay 33.7 cents person : which is enough to pay their share the health & education budget and still have money left to pay for their share of the transportation, safety, utilities, city beautification and city ordinance budgets.

    At medium and high density R$ only pay 7 cents person which pays for their share of the health education budget and leaves virtually nothing left for the other departmental budgets 

    I think the SC4 developers knew most people would play for big population cities and got a kick out of creating positive feedback loops that create financial problems.

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    I've found that HT growth tends to generate more CO$$$ demand, so I build up massive HT industrial districts in my region in order to get demand high enough to grow a proper downtown.

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    Originally posted by: cogeo

    The problem with CS$ is that there are no buildings/lots with enough capacity, to satisfy all this demand. The "best" I have seen are some stores, growing on 1x3 or 1x2 medium-density lots and providing some 150 jobs.quote>

    I might add that many CS§ BATs suffer from too low occupant numbers - too low in SC4 terms, that is. Take small shops like SimGoober's RLS Small shops and similar BATs. If you compare them to all those generic Maxis sheobox stores, they should offer 35-75 jobs! Most of them, however, offer considerably less.

    Since I mod all my plugins by hand, I changed this, and I often get CS§ demand down to zero (or near zero). In any case, I don't remember seeing it anywhere near maximum for a long time.

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    Returning to our muttons, the reason you want I-HT when the conditions are right is that it puts jobs in the lap of the residential area if you zone it there.  Non-polluting is good.  Rememeber that if there is one or two R$$$ working there, there is a larger number of R$$ and R$ also employed.

    If you want more jobs in an I-HT plant, you have two choices:  Make your own plant with the BAT or use ilive's reader or maybe the SC4Tool.

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