"The 5,000 Year Leap"

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Taken from Amazon:

The nation the Founders built is now in the throes of a political, economic, social, and spiritual crisis that has driven many to an almost frantic search for modern solutions. The truth is that the solutions have been available for a long time -- in the writings of our Founding Fathers -- carefully set forth in this timely book.

In The 5000 Year Leap: A Miracle That Changed the World, Discover the 28 Principles of Freedom our Founding Fathers said must be understood and perpetuated by every people who desire peace, prosperity, and freedom. Learn how adherence to these beliefs during the past 200 years has brought about more progress than was made in the previous 5000 years. These 28 Principles include The Genius of Natural Law, Virtuous and Moral Leaders, Equal Rights--Not Equal Things, and Avoiding the Burden of Debt. Published by the National Center for Constitutional Studies, a nonprofit educational foundation dedicated to restoring Constitutional principles in the tradition of America's Founding Fathers.

---

So our topic begins.  I want to have a very civil discussion about the book and general thinking of everyone concerning our current affairs as a nation (The United States of America).

If you bring up a point please back it up with factual and informative facts.  Do not flame or be rude to others.  One of our greatest freedoms is the right for each person to share what he or she thinks or believes.  We do not have to agree but we do have to respect one another and have civilized debate.

---

Shall we begin:

Principle 1 - The only reliable basis for sound government and just human relations is Natural Law.

"Natural law is God’s law. There are certain laws which govern the entire universe, and just as Thomas Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence, there are laws which govern in the affairs of men which are “the laws of nature and of nature’s God.”

* IMO God here (although I am a Christain) describes some higher power that created and set everything in motion.  This power can be God, Ali, or even the Big Bang theory, if you will.  The logic being that nature knows what to do and when to do.  That something would need to have effinent wisdom to set everything in order.

[sneakeypete 16]

May i point out that the rest of the world also had more progress (depending on your definition of it) in the last 200 years than the 5000 before that. Somehow i do not think freedoms alone are the reason for it then.

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Originally posted by: sneakeypete

May i point out that the rest of the world also had more progress (depending on your definition of it) in the last 200 years than the 5000 before that. Somehow i do not think freedoms alone are the reason for it then.quote>

So let's chat about that.  What is your definition of "progress"?  There could be several types as well.  Technology would be one type.  Economic maybe another.... right??  Tell me your thoughts.

[Leolas 0]

I'm italian, but i wanted to say something anyway: I don't think it's true that the human kind made more progress now than in the last 5000 years.

I don't know how much you study about ancient Romans, Greeks and Muslems in USA, but believe me, it's unbelievable how many stuff the greeks and the romans discovered and developed.

Culture, politics, medicine, working tools, aqueducts, transportation, music, food, economy......

There's an episode of the Simpsons where lisa and bart end up in a parallel dimension of the earth where there was no Church: they were 1million time more developed than us

I'm not so drastic, because religion wasn't the only reason why there was a "dark age" in our eastern world after 400ad (and actually, when we stopped developing stuff, muslems began doing it, and thanks to them we still know all the discoveries of greeks and romans, plus many other new stuff).

I haven't understood if that text is just about north america: in that case, I believe that the native americans didn't actually discovered many things (while in south america there were big metropolies in the 1*00ad).

All what we discovered in the last 200 years, could be discovered only thanks to the previous discoveries.. It's true, though, that thanks to the informatics we made a big jump ahead (and also the computer is actually an "old discovery": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer#History_of_computing )

[Follarch 327]

When I read "Nature's Law", I think "Letting Nature Take It's Course". And when regarding that to entire government and civilizations, no.

I mean, when it come's to letting Nature decide what happens and what doesn't, goes completely against what the Human mind wants to happen and not to happen. Nature, that we all know, certainly takes it's sweet loving time with things. ie. Evolution of the species over millions of years. But because of Humanity's mind, it's imagination, it's ability to accumulate knowledge and seek out more, and then to put that knowledge into physical objects, we've achieved things that didn't take Millions of years.

I'm not so drastic, because religion wasn't the only reason why there was a "dark age" in our eastern worldquote>

No, you're most likely right. But many profoundly believe if it weren't for the dark ages, that large gap in technological progress, Humanity would most likely have been building the first colony on the Moon, spearheading the first Nuclear Fusion prototype Reactor or constructing the first Space Elevator.

What I'm basically saying is that we can't let Nature control the future of Humanity, as a civilized species. We are creatures of curiosity, a short lived race bent on accomplishing as much as possible in our 70-80 years of life. On the smaller scale things though, such as the growth of an unborn child or a woman's menstrual cycle, by all means, let Natural Law take over.

[Duke87 1,070]

Um... I'm going to guess that this is a book that most people haven't read (I know I haven't). So I don't see how much of a book discussion could get going here.

Anyways, on the point you bring up... it is a valid one. This idea that the government can grant people rights is utterly unamerican. Simple human rights transcend any establishment. No government can grant them or take them away, it can only protect them or attack them.

[anytownUSA 32]

I believe our Faith in Jesus Christ brought us out of the Dark Ages.  Western Civilization consisted of nothing more than a whole continent of barbarians.  It wasn't until we became Christians that we began to really develop.  The introduction of Christianity into Europe cannot be overstated.  If we ceased to be a Christian culture we would go right back to being barbarians as proven by events such as the holocaust. 

In 1492 the Spanish pushed the last muslims out of Europe, making the continent entirely Christian.  That was the exact same year Christopher Columbus discovered North America.  Not a coincidence.  Maybe when we bring the whole world to Christ we will finally discover a new inhabitable planet somewhere in the universe. 

[fukuda 351]

"Natural law is God’s law. There are certain laws which govern the entire universe, and just as Thomas Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence, there are laws which govern in the affairs of men which are “the laws of nature and of nature’s God.”quote>

Nice, so uhm.. What are these so-called laws?

I believe our Faith in Jesus Christ brought us out of the Dark Ages.  Western Civilization consisted of nothing more than a whole continent of barbarians.  It wasn't until we became Christians that we began to really develop.  The introduction of Christianity into Europe cannot be overstated.  If we ceased to be a Christian culture we would go right back to being barbarians as proven by events such as the holocaust. quote>

Almost all the "barbarians" you cited already were christian via the romans. Christianity was introduced into Europe way before the so-called "Dark Ages".

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Um... I'm going to guess that this is a book that most people haven't read (I know I haven't). So I don't see how much of a book discussion could get going here.

Anyways, on the point you bring up... it is a valid one. This idea that the government can grant people rights is utterly unamerican. Simple human rights transcend any establishment. No government can grant them or take them away, it can only protect them or attack them.

quote>

Thanks for getting us BACK on topic!

The first principle is more about natural law.  It's not so much about that we should allow nature to dictate what happens but rather, that we as humans have all the right things to make ourselves better and survive - but there is a catch.  We must understand that everyone - all humans have the same natural rights as another.  We all have the right to our life, no one should take it from us.  We all have a right to our property, no one should take it away from us.  We all have a right to liberty and to pursue what we believe will make us better humans and contribute to society as a whole.  The issue there in lies when we as humans attempt to take those same rights we hold dear away from others.  Thus we stop helping one another and begin to turn on one another.

Christian teaching clearly states that the most important commandment is to love God with everything you have and the second is to love your neighbor as you love yourselves.  Irregardless of your beliefs (in God, Ali, or nothing at all) you cannot say that if everyone would love one another the world would be a completely different reality all together.

The purpose of this is to chat about these things and discuss them - a healthy way to learn and react!

[morriswalters 16]

Rather than give credit to the founding fathers for advancing civilzation you might want to thank Gutenberg for developing the printing press thereby creating a mechanism for storing information.  Most advances through today happen because there is continuity provide by the written and now electronic word.  Until that invention data could only be carried forth by folklore or by handwritten texts.  The age of discovery was a product of this, as the thinkers of those times were able to interact and share ideas with their peers all around the world. The founding fathers were only a few of many who pushed society forward.

The Church as represented by the Pope was an important resource for carrying man ahead, but the ability to create books without the hand copying that the Church had used, widened the availablity of information to the average man.  For the first time people could have access to writings by people other than the Church.  This led to a revolution in how the church was viewed.  The widespread use of books also meant that no data could be lost because of the loss of a man or men who held important information, as long as it had been committed to print.  It is this fact that that has increased the speed at which we advance, no more two steps forward and one step back.

The two men who make up the final pieces of the puzzle to bring us to today are Herman Hollerith and Charles Babbage, Hollerith for the ubiquitus punch card and Babbage for the idea of a programmable computer.

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Originally posted by: morriswalters

Rather than give credit to the founding fathers for advancing civilzation you might want to thank Gutenberg for developing the printing press thereby creating a mechanism for storing information.  Most advances through today happen because there is continuity provide by the written and now electronic word.  Until that invention data could only be carried forth by folklore or by handwritten texts.  The age of discovery was a product of this, as the thinkers of those times were able to interact and share ideas with their peers all around the world. The founding fathers were only a few of many who pushed society forward.

The Church as represented by the Pope was an important resource for carrying man ahead, but the ability to create books without the hand copying that the Church had used, widened the availablity of information to the average man.  For the first time people could have access to writings by people other than the Church.  This led to a revolution in how the church was viewed.  The widespread use of books also meant that no data could be lost because of the loss of a man or men who held important information, as long as it had been committed to print.  It is this fact that that has increased the speed at which we advance, no more two steps forward and one step back.

The two men who make up the final pieces of the puzzle to bring us to today are Herman Hollerith and Charles Babbage, Hollerith for the ubiquitus punch card and Babbage for the idea of a programmable computer.

quote>

Yes each of these are important.  No doubt.  In fact we could go on for days outlining who, why, when, where.  For example we may very well still be having a Priest read the Bible to us had it not been for Martin Luther and the Reformation.  

But this is not what the essence of the discussion is about.  It is more concerning mans ability to govern and the consequences of that.  Until the founding fathers the progress of self government was plainly not there.  Yes there where great examples of democracy in the ancient world and they used some of that within the framework of the Declaration and Constitution.  The point however remains that they help foster a new age of thinking where by the people controlled the government and the people elected representatives to voice their concerns.  The first part of this self governance is understanding that everyone must abide by our natural law and that every human is entitled to these things - that NO government can grant them because they already abide in each of us naturally.  That's the point of the first principle -- all governments created should focus on protecting these basic "natural laws" and all our relations with other humans should be focused on us following these natural laws together.

Let's think about this for a moment..... what if tomorrow a tree in your front yard decided instead of growing up .... it would start growing left or right?  That's natural law at work in the tree.  The tree knows it must grow upward as to get the proper Sun light and to produce.  Humans also have these same instincts within each of us of what is right and wrong.  We know it is morally wrong to kill someone or to steal from another.  That's what the founders where saying -- the government created by man can never give or change or do away with our natural rights as humans.

[Glenni 1,447]

Originally posted by: anytownusa

I believe our Faith in Jesus Christ brought us out of the Dark Ages.  Western Civilization consisted of nothing more than a whole continent of barbarians.  It wasn't until we became Christians that we began to really develop.  The introduction of Christianity into Europe cannot be overstated.  If we ceased to be a Christian culture we would go right back to being barbarians as proven by events such as the holocaust. 

In 1492 the Spanish pushed the last muslims out of Europe, making the continent entirely Christian.  That was the exact same year Christopher Columbus discovered North America.  Not a coincidence.  Maybe when we bring the whole world to Christ we will finally discover a new inhabitable planet somewhere in the universe. 

quote>

And then christianity brought us into an even darker age, with frequent witchburnings, terrorising the general population with threats about going to hell, executing anyone for having an opinion. Oh yes, how civilised!

Until people stopped being as religious and actually begun to THINK. That is when society started getting more civilised, and actually improve...

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Originally posted by: Glenni

Originally posted by: anytownusa

I believe our Faith in Jesus Christ brought us out of the Dark Ages.  Western Civilization consisted of nothing more than a whole continent of barbarians.  It wasn't until we became Christians that we began to really develop.  The introduction of Christianity into Europe cannot be overstated.  If we ceased to be a Christian culture we would go right back to being barbarians as proven by events such as the holocaust. 

In 1492 the Spanish pushed the last muslims out of Europe, making the continent entirely Christian.  That was the exact same year Christopher Columbus discovered North America.  Not a coincidence.  Maybe when we bring the whole world to Christ we will finally discover a new inhabitable planet somewhere in the universe. 

quote>

And then christianity brought us into an even darker age, with frequent witchburnings, terrorising the general population with threats about going to hell, executing anyone for having an opinion. Oh yes, how civilised!

Until people stopped being as religious and actually begun to THINK. That is when society started getting more civilised, and actually improve...

quote>

We will certainly come back to this later down the list........

First however we must establish that there are natural rights that everyone is entitled to.  Jefferson spelled some of them out in the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

Notice that I said some...... what are others you can think of:

 

1. A right to our life
2. A right to our liberty
3. A right to purse happiness in a manner we like

Give some examples of other natural rights:

[BoxCarRacer 1]

Originally posted by: anytownusa

I believe our Faith in Jesus Christ brought us out of the Dark Ages.  Western Civilization consisted of nothing more than a whole continent of barbarians.  It wasn't until we became Christians that we began to really develop.  The introduction of Christianity into Europe cannot be overstated.  If we ceased to be a Christian culture we would go right back to being barbarians as proven by events such as the holocaust. 

In 1492 the Spanish pushed the last muslims out of Europe, making the continent entirely Christian.  That was the exact same year Christopher Columbus discovered North America.  Not a coincidence.  Maybe when we bring the whole world to Christ we will finally discover a new inhabitable planet somewhere in the universe. 

quote>

heres how everything happens.

The year 0-this is actually 33 years. Odd, eh? This is when Jesus lived. I suppose you say Christianity formed now.

-Romans become christians, spreading christianity throughout europe.

-Christianity spreads to europe.

-Rome collapses, bringing in the dark ages.

-Orthodox Churches form over the debate of symbolism. Cause you know, who loves jesus more is a big issue.

-The Pope decides to invade the middle east because you know, they didn't do anything besides preserve centuries of knowledge and culture from the greeks and romans, as well as facilitate global trade of ideas and technology from europe to asia. So yea, lets go get us some holy land!

-Reformation. Basically, people fighting over who loves jesus more. Also Church of England forms because King Henry wants a loophole out of "going to hell". Interestingly enough, divisions of the church are present in nearly every major european conflict. Protestant-Catholic fighting/hatred doesn't stop till just recently. Is that progress? 

-Hitler starts WWII and Houlocaust. You'll be surprised to find out that Hitler was a christian, raised catholic, but then favored protestantism because it was german, who believed in a aryan jesus christ who fought jews. Wow! That's progress!

-1980's-90's. The United States decides to get involved in the middle east, thus causing a bunch of islamic radicals to resume that holy war on the west, because you know, they love god more. No wait, we do. No, they do. Ahhh lets just fight about it with missles! Don't you love progress?

In 1492 Columbus did sail the ocean blue. Proving the supposedly infallible church wrong, that the earth is round, not flat. If Columbus was a good christian boy, he would have never challenged the churches teachings, and 300,000 million americans would currently be living in europe. Population density is fun! O, and columbus killed a bunch of natives in the name of god. At least he wasn't a barbarian, right?

Luckily, the church fessed up to being fallible, considering they denied the worlds roundness and thought the sun revolved around the earth [did I mention they killed Galileo for that?]. So yea, eventually they said, "oops, we are wrong". In the 20th century. While we were inventing hollywood, the church was discovering the earth was round. How's that for progress?

Your right. If we all followed the churches teachings we would be living on another planet right now. Unfortuantly, according to the church, there are no other planets. Those are just heaven.

[comradevik 0]

First I'd like to point out that the author was a kook who is still only popular because Glen Beck's favorite writer.  The book's whole premise is 'The founding fathers created America because God said so. Praise Jesus'.

The United States was never a Christian nation, and this book would make Thomas Jefferson and and J.Adams roll in their graves. 

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/09/16/beck_skousen/print.html

Why 5000 years, why not 2000 or 8000? Why not 12000 years. The one invention that lead to everything we have today was probably the plow, but even thousands of years before humans knew how to use tools and started wearing clothes 25-30 thousand years back. As you can see it wasn't a 'leap' and it certainly didn't start 5000 years ago. 

The ideas in the Declaration and Constitution certainly didn't come from God either. They came from thinkers like Plato and Cicero who were certainly no Christians. 

The content of the book itself is often factually wrong and seems like a poor attempt to rewrite history by the conservative religious right. How did the author miss the part in the constitution about separation of church and state? 

When has christianity been about liberty anyway? During the Inquisition? When they took over the Americas? When they tortured and enslaved the indigenous people of every continent they came across? When they accepted homosexuals to be free to marry each other... oh wait.

Now if you want to move beyond the stupidity and intelectual dishonesty of this book we can talk about what freedom is and where the ideas come from. 

Freedom is not a universal value. There are 3 different concepts of freedom; national freedom (freedom from other nations), political freedom (freedom to have the right to vote, choose officials and run for office), and individual freedom (freedom to do whatever you please as long as you harm no one else). Historically, the only other nation that had all 3 types of freedom before the US, was Athenian Democracy. Aside from that, most countries willingly chose one type of the 3 over another. The Roman Empire had political and individual freedoms, but no national freedom. North Korea has national freedom, but they sacrifice individual and political freedoms.

Some civilizations(China, Egypt) didn't even have a concept of freedom and they did just fine( even if we don't necessarily agree) Freedom is not a universal value, it's mostly an idea of western philosophy, not that that's a bad thing. 

[His Divine Hand 244]

Originally posted by: CWLGAMER01

First however we must establish that there are natural rights that everyone is entitled to.  Jefferson spelled some of them out in the Declaration of Independence. . .

quote>

"'The results should have been predictable, since a human being has no natural rights of any nature.'

Mr. Dubois had paused.  Somebody took the bait. 'Sir? How about 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'?'

'Ah, yes, the 'unalienable rights.'  Each year someone quotes that magnificent poetry.  Life?  What 'right' to life has a man who is downing in the Pacific?  The ocean will not hearken to his cries.  What 'right' to life has a man who must die if he is to save his children?  If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'?  If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'?  And is it 'right'?  As to liberty, the heroes who signed the great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives.  [. . .] Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost.'"

Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers.

A person is entitled only to the rights that others magnanimously bestow on their fellow man, or those they will die for.

Also on the topic of what I like to call Founding Fatherism, I'm always amused that a group of people whom the majority owned slaves and placed voting restrictions based on race, gender, and property ownership (I believe that at the time the Constitution was crafted, only Pennsylvania and possibly Rhode Island had universal suffrage for all WHITE MALES. . .) and included men such as Alexander Hamilton who believed that America should elect an American King to run the nation, is seen as having a singular easy to follow plan for the nation 200 years latter.
 

[DeadCanDance 0]

As a law student, I had to read a lot about the matter. But I think that for most of the contents on US founding fathers principles or Declaration of Independence should be subject of an exegesis. Why? Simply because the original principles are redacted for white european-descent landowners. An example: before the sixties, not all men in US were equal in rights; the civil liberties movement sought to abolish barriers for african american people: but the barriers were constitutional according to the Supreme Court! So, the basis for an understanding on the matter is about historical context, etc., not an approach based on a simple reading.

Furthermore, the conception that I read on the posts targets a modern conception of rights (as human rights). Human rights are a twentieth century development, as the eighteenth century sought bourgeois rights.

A modern conception on the 'natural law' issue should take it as Kelsen's grundnorm or Hart's rule of recognition; the basis on natural law, and the interpretation of that clause traces over the authority of law, but nothing else. For instance, the only discussion on 'what is a natural right?' should be self-explaining: natural rights are supposed to be self-evident, but, is it self-evident that gun possession is a right? (avoiding the conflict on the matter itself).

[thingfishs 417]

 @DCD: I agree entirely that the whole concept of "natural rights", or inherent rights, can only be entertained within sectors of the world (comfortable and naive and/or ignorant sectors); therefore they are in NO WAY "natural" rights... But that's not to dispute the concept of "natural law", only the "law" part of the phrase. The "law" of the land exists... , yes. There ARE forces which govern the affairs of men; such as the need for warmth, food & shelter, the need to regenerate, to survive etc. But as for any of these translating to anything more than artificially enabled "rights" is primary school thinking as far as I'm concerned).

 

[raja_indy14 8]

 Natural laws are an assumption, nothing more.  Even such elementary thinkers as Locke do not go out of their way to justify the concept of natural laws, they simply assume that they exist.  They are a helpful assumption in combating tyranny, but that is all they are, an assumption.  They help us to construct liberal political structures, but there is nothing inherently correct or true about them, there is no such thing as a natural law.  There is nothing that gives people God granted rights, these are things that must be conceived of and then struggled for, they are not natural or inherent.  One might as well say that the natural state of humankind is for some to be the slaves and property of others.

[mightygoose 92]

natural law is just another construct of a human mind, we are animals, we have no right to anything, the idea we deserve certain things is an expression of our indulgences in self importance. I think  this can be expressed best by D H Lawrence....

I have never seen a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A little bird will fall dead, frozen from a bough, without ever having felt sorry for itself.

    D. H. Lawrence

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Originally posted by: comradevik

First I'd like to point out that the author was a kook who is still only popular because Glen Beck's favorite writer.  The book's whole premise is 'The founding fathers created America because God said so. Praise Jesus'.

The United States was never a Christian nation, and this book would make Thomas Jefferson and and J.Adams roll in their graves. 

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/09/16/beck_skousen/print.html

Why 5000 years, why not 2000 or 8000? Why not 12000 years. The one invention that lead to everything we have today was probably the plow, but even thousands of years before humans knew how to use tools and started wearing clothes 25-30 thousand years back. As you can see it wasn't a 'leap' and it certainly didn't start 5000 years ago. 

The ideas in the Declaration and Constitution certainly didn't come from God either. They came from thinkers like Plato and Cicero who were certainly no Christians. 

The content of the book itself is often factually wrong and seems like a poor attempt to rewrite history by the conservative religious right. How did the author miss the part in the constitution about separation of church and state? 

When has christianity been about liberty anyway? During the Inquisition? When they took over the Americas? When they tortured and enslaved the indigenous people of every continent they came across? When they accepted homosexuals to be free to marry each other... oh wait.

Now if you want to move beyond the stupidity and intelectual dishonesty of this book we can talk about what freedom is and where the ideas come from. 

Freedom is not a universal value. There are 3 different concepts of freedom; national freedom (freedom from other nations), political freedom (freedom to have the right to vote, choose officials and run for office), and individual freedom (freedom to do whatever you please as long as you harm no one else). Historically, the only other nation that had all 3 types of freedom before the US, was Athenian Democracy. Aside from that, most countries willingly chose one type of the 3 over another. The Roman Empire had political and individual freedoms, but no national freedom. North Korea has national freedom, but they sacrifice individual and political freedoms.

Some civilizations(China, Egypt) didn't even have a concept of freedom and they did just fine( even if we don't necessarily agree) Freedom is not a universal value, it's mostly an idea of western philosophy, not that that's a bad thing. 

quote>

Interesting.  The book ony mentions the founders and Jesus Christ once, and I quote:

They {the founders} were also careful students of the Bible, especially the Old Testament. and even though some did not belong to any Christain denomination, the teachings of Jesus were held in univerisal respect and admiration.

 

The book clearly does not say that the founders were Christains, that some of them were, which is a fact.

The Consitution also does not mention we have a "seperation of chruch and state" but does protect from the government establishing and dictating to us how and what we should believe.

You do not have to be a Christain to reconigize that the teachings of Jesus are great examples to live by.  That would certainly be the same as someone who says Plato's teachings are great - but it doesn't make them an Athenian.... does it?

But I digress..... Again the point is more so about discussion and not about the author and his issues.  Many books have issues that we can agree or disagree about.  The point of this post is lively and respectful discussions.

Again the question is:

Is NATURAL LAW the ONLY reliable basis for sound Governement and Just Human Relations???

[Leolas 0]

Originally posted by: anytownusa

I believe our Faith in Jesus Christ brought us out of the Dark Ages.  Western Civilization consisted of nothing more than a whole continent of barbarians.  It wasn't until we became Christians that we began to really develop.  The introduction of Christianity into Europe cannot be overstated.  If we ceased to be a Christian culture we would go right back to being barbarians as proven by events such as the holocaust. 

In 1492 the Spanish pushed the last muslims out of Europe, making the continent entirely Christian.  That was the exact same year Christopher Columbus discovered North America.  Not a coincidence.  Maybe when we bring the whole world to Christ we will finally discover a new inhabitable planet somewhere in the universe. 

quote>

You have some confusion in your head, actually.

The Faith in Jesus Christ brought us TO the Dark Ages, and only the illuminists and the scienstist and philosophers that were allowed to talk brought us away from the Middle Age.

It went like that: romans and greeks (and other ancients population) were all pagans, and believed in their gods.

At that time, they made an unbelievable developement, trust me.

Then, there was Jesus Christ, and Rome, after civil wars where the empire was a bit destroyed, became christian.

All the barbarians that lived in europe became christians too, and after conquering rome (that became weak for many reasons, but also because of the civil wars caused by the christians), they turned 100% christians: in the 800ad, the pope made Carlo Magno the Emperor of the Sacre Unite Empire.

Then, just christians and muislems: the christians were aristotelics/tolemaics and accepted only their ideas, in order to gain stability: every scientist who wanted to dicover new things about humankind could be killed by the christian inquisition (or just shut up, as they did with Galileo Galilei).

The muslems, that were before like barbarians, became the new center of culture of the weastern world.

They also saved us, europeans, from a cinese invasion

Only when the Church became weak, the people of the weastern world could began making new discovery about medicine, anatomy, space...

It's simply untrue that europeans were barbarians before the church: they were very developed (at least rome, spain and greece), and, sorry to tell ya, but the Church was actually conquered by barbarians

That's history.

Anyway, sorry I went OT, but I had to answer

Returning on the main question: all what you find on the Bible and so on comes from previous religions and philosophers, mainly aristoteles and tolomeus, but also from old pagan religions, socrates, plato, and many other.

So, there actually isn't a real christian culture, so well...

The entire system of govenement is ancient, democracy and government aren't new stuff.

So how can you tell if something comes from god, or from our minds?

Natural law is not enough for our weastern democracies: natural law would mean "the strongest wins", which is something that is not 100% true, even though it has some sense: Plato, for example, believed that only people who don't have occupation, that have studied a lot and have enough money can rule a country, and we see partly also now: we never see a poor man or a man who hasn't studied as a chief of a state.

Is this natural law? Partly, in our society those men are the men who have Power, but a real natural law can be better seen in a dictatorship

By the way, our governments are based on thoughts of ancient philosophers, and those aren't natural law..

[DeadCanDance 0]

Two things: the first, natural law is not a basis to a sound government. Mainly because you can't rely on a 'mystic' basis on the State structure, you have legitimacy or not, and legitimacy is a matter of fact.

Second, it's very unlikely that the catholic church is the institution that brought us to the Middle ages. It was a mixture of political and social change, the fall of a centralized power in Europe brought the drawing people from the cities to rural areas, the destruction of many cultural and scientific goods, etc. Today Middle ages are not known as a Dark age, there are many known advances and of course, the basis of the Renaissance. It was the catholic church who, trying to make a more accurate calendar, commisioned a scientific commision, who discovered the Earth's rotation, etc.

[fukuda 351]

Natural law is God’s law. There are certain laws which govern the entire universequote>

Is NATURAL LAW the ONLY reliable basis for sound Governement and Just Human Relations???quote>

But.. If natural laws are the ones that govern this universe.. There's no way a government or someone could go against them as beings in this universe... I can't go against the laws of thermodynamics!

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Originally posted by: Leolas

Originally posted by: anytownusa

I believe our Faith in Jesus Christ brought us out of the Dark Ages.  Western Civilization consisted of nothing more than a whole continent of barbarians.  It wasn't until we became Christians that we began to really develop.  The introduction of Christianity into Europe cannot be overstated.  If we ceased to be a Christian culture we would go right back to being barbarians as proven by events such as the holocaust. 

In 1492 the Spanish pushed the last muslims out of Europe, making the continent entirely Christian.  That was the exact same year Christopher Columbus discovered North America.  Not a coincidence.  Maybe when we bring the whole world to Christ we will finally discover a new inhabitable planet somewhere in the universe. 

quote>

You have some confusion in your head, actually.

The Faith in Jesus Christ brought us TO the Dark Ages, and only the illuminists and the scienstist and philosophers that were allowed to talk brought us away from the Middle Age.

It went like that: romans and greeks (and other ancients population) were all pagans, and believed in their gods.

At that time, they made an unbelievable developement, trust me.

Then, there was Jesus Christ, and Rome, after civil wars where the empire was a bit destroyed, became christian.

All the barbarians that lived in europe became christians too, and after conquering rome (that became weak for many reasons, but also because of the civil wars caused by the christians), they turned 100% christians: in the 800ad, the pope made Carlo Magno the Emperor of the Sacre Unite Empire.

Then, just christians and muislems: the christians were aristotelics/tolemaics and accepted only their ideas, in order to gain stability: every scientist who wanted to dicover new things about humankind could be killed by the christian inquisition (or just shut up, as they did with Galileo Galilei).

The muslems, that were before like barbarians, became the new center of culture of the weastern world.

They also saved us, europeans, from a cinese invasion

Only when the Church became weak, the people of the weastern world could began making new discovery about medicine, anatomy, space...

It's simply untrue that europeans were barbarians before the church: they were very developed (at least rome, spain and greece), and, sorry to tell ya, but the Church was actually conquered by barbarians

That's history.

Anyway, sorry I went OT, but I had to answer

quote>

I agree with what you are saying here... but one thing that bothers me is this -- the "faith" in Christ is NOT what brought about these things BUT man's own interpretation of these events that brought about these issues.  The founders were VERY clear that they believed ORGANIZED religion was indeed a bad thing.  That the "church" during most of it's history had destroyed the teachings of both Jesus and the earlier prophets.  Just over the past 100 years have we truly begin to realize what this has done to Christianinty around the globe.  Many "denominations" still do not grasp this concept and still preach hate, fire, and brimstone.  True believers hold that Christ (God) come to us to save the world and reconcile the world with God.  Christ did not come to condemn people,  Christians who believe that everyone who does not follow their way is going to hell are truly not believers and do not have the true Christ.  Let those who are without sin cast the first stone...... no human is without sin!  All we can do is share the peace and love of Christ with one another - this is a true Christian.... Love others as you love yourself!!  Love everyone - that's the model to truly live by!

Sorry to rant -- but it is truly frustrates me that so many people will use God's name in a way that others cringe at the thought of believing??!!  How is this Christ like??

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Originally posted by: Leolas

By the way, our governments are based on thoughts of ancient philosophers, and those aren't natural law..

quote>

Yes.  Excellent point!  Getting back to Cicero one of these "ancient philosophers".  He defined Natural Law as "true law"....

True law is right reason in agreement with nature; it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting;  it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions.

He goes onto say:

The animal which we call man, endowed with foresight and quick intelligence, complex, keen, possessing memory, full of reason and prudence, has been given a certain distinguished status by Supreme God who created him; for he is the only one among so many different kinds and varieties of living beings who has a share in reason and thought, while all the rest are deprived of it.

Cicero was very clear in his understanding of and defining Natures Law.  His understood the first of the greatest commandment which is to love, respect, and obey the all-wise Creator (whom ever that may be).  The second commandment was also very clear to him, without being either a Christian or a Jew.  It deals with our social bond as humans.  Cicero raises this point in connection with his discussion of Justice.  He clearly points out that Justice in impossible except under the principles of the creator's (Natural Law).?

For these virtues originate in our natural inclination to love our fellow-men, and this is the foundation of justice.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

A fascinating topic for sure.  Natural Law?  Well, how about Eat or be Eaten?  Let us not kid around, we are the top dogs in our particular food chain. (The top dogs in the whole food chain are probably the polar bears).  We just happen to be the bright animals with the opposable thumb and large brains.

Before these facts, everything we say about "Natural Law" comes from ourselves.  According to the archeologists, we haven't been around very long in the history of the world.  Here we are aggrandizing ourselves, again, trying to justify what we have done to the environment.

Well, I have never even heard of this book, and most of us haven't read it, so it is irrelevant other than producing a topic for discussion.

The founding fathers of the United States of America are not the world's greatest example.  Revolutionary emingrants, mostly from Great Britain, who found a solution to their tax problem by having a nice little war.  The total effect in the last 200 years has been the creation of a political organism that has now run out of space and like a cancer is trying to infect its neighbours.  Economic hegegmony seems to be the current instrument of this empire.  Fortunately for the rest of us, it is not tough-minded enough to follow through in the face of much resistance.  Take a look at the first Elizabethan age if you wnat to see real empire building.

[CWLGAMER01 39]

Today we will look at the next principle.

Principle 2 - A free people cannot survive under a republican constitution unless they remain virtuous and morally strong.

“Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.” – Benjamin Franklin

---

So keeping in mind that we must use Natural Law or Natures Laws to establish sound government and just human relations.  We must remain virtous and morally strong in all of our affairs.

A virtue is a character trait or quality valued as being always good in and of itself.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Oh!  How the mighty have fallen.  Anyone these days who believes that the people of the United States of America are virtuous hasn't paid much attention since the death of FDR.  Americans are worshipping at the altar of Mammon.  This is virtuous?  Give me a break!

America has fallen from grace, if it was ever in a state of grace, since these high-fallutin' words writ by the founders.  Not only has virtue been lost, it has been corrupted.  Unregulated capitalism has the bit in its teeth, and all the old boys have gone along with it so long, they are wondering what Obama is talking about.  Greed in America knows no bounds.