World Affairs

[fukuda 351]

Its every southern Euro country. Italy, Spain and Portugal are in trouble as well. They can collapse any moment as well, and we can bail them out as well. quote>

While the 3 countries you used as an example are definitely in a weak state, they all have different circumstances and are in different degrees of danger. They don't seem to be going to collapse in any foreseeable future. Not even Italy, the one in the weakest position of them all with a public debt of 115,2% of its GDP as of 2009.

Debt was not the only problem in Greece, they seem to have deeper political and societal problems. This isn't to be solved just by bailing them out, unluckily..

Also, it has nothing to do with their production capabilities. It has to do with their government spending and taking on lots of loans they now cant seem to pay back. They need to make huge cuts in the budget and get money from the EU in order to prevent them from going bankrupt. They shouldnt have been allowed in the Eurozone to begin with. quote>

So loans and debt? Shall we check the numbers?

Public Debt:

Japan: 192% wwwwwww

Italy: 115,20%

Greece: 108,10%

Belgium: 99%

France: 79,7%

Germany: 77,2%

Portugal: 75,2%

Norway: 60,2%

USA: 52,9%

Spain: 50%

External debt:

UK: 365,44%

France: 227,35%

Spain: 150,65%

While Italy and Greece certainly spent way more than they should have.. This is not the case for the other 2 countries... They're in fact in a better shape than most of the complaining eurozone countries. This is way more complex than a debt issue.

Overpaid high-level civil workers, unefficient politicians who are only looking to the next election, 350 congressmen/women + 208 senators only on the Spanish central parliament, everyone with its (obviously high) wage and money for expenditures. Too many goverment departments, overridden responsabilities, absurd expenditures like buying high-end German cars to use them as official cars, keeping an army only used on humanitary missions and a royal family whose expenditures aren't declared... and so on.quote>

Does not account for the huge spendings.. Unless our parliament members drive space shuttles to work.

The army... Come on, only 2 fighters are available at any time to defend the country, and when they stupidly decided to attack Perejil none of the helicopters was available so they had to wait another week. 

Everyone is happy when the army sends help to Haiti, but the following week they're complaining again. Neither the expenditures of the royal family are high enough to fill the gap by far.

The actual disaster in Spain was brought by the huge speculation and corruption at street level, not by the spendings of 3 politicians. The living style of spaniards isn't helping either and is one of the main sources of the huge unemployment rates. They're completely glued to their houses which they still have to pay for the rest of their lives and they therefore are completely unable to look for a job outside their small action range. If the company they were working for suddenly leaves the area they're screwed. And the disastrous education system isn't helping either.

Unemployment rates have always been ridiculously high in Spain, even when the country economy was growing exponentially. No one seemed to wonder why or worry about it until now..

After all, what was the point of restoring the monarchy if not to help rule? quote>

The point? The point was to avoid another civil war, mainly.

I really can't imaging how they have so many legislators for such a small country.  Canada's parliament is much smaller and we have the second largest land mass in the world.  If Spain is so crowded that they need all this government, maybe some population control legislation would be good.  And if that unemployment rate is correct, their economy is broken.quote>

Overpopulation is hardly the issue. Unlike Canada, Spain has a looong history and lots of internal feuds within small regions, which means that almost every small city wants its own government (and its bureaucrats, obviously!). It also means that they're always fighting over petty issues and trying to spend even more money for their own ehm projects.

[Duke87 1,070]

Greece's problem is that they have had too many entitlements which all of a sudden they find themselves no longer able to afford, because entitlements are unsustainable. Meanwhile, nobody is willing to give anything up peacefully, and so all of a sudden there is unrest.

As for bailing them out, that was a bad idea. When someone is addicted to drugs, you don't hand them a bunch of money so they can run out and keep buying more drugs. That doesn't solve anything, it just enables the problem to continue.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Greece's problem is that they have had too many entitlements which all of a sudden they find themselves no longer able to afford, because entitlements are unsustainable. Meanwhile, nobody is willing to give anything up peacefully, and so all of a sudden there is unrest.

As for bailing them out, that was a bad idea. When someone is addicted to drugs, you don't hand them a bunch of money so they can run out and keep buying more drugs. That doesn't solve anything, it just enables the problem to continue.

quote>

You do bail them out if by not doing so you endanger the stability of the ENTIRE EUROZONE which consists of most EU member countries. Letting them rot would in the long term be very negative for the rest of Europe.

And it wont continue if you make damn sure that they get the money but at the same time reform so this wont happen again. Which is now part of the agreement for sending them money. 

@fukuda

Its not the size of the debt compared to their GDP that causes such a problem. You can have a huge dept but as long as people believe that you will be paying them back it wont turn into a crisis. America has a huge debt as well. If it wasnt America it would have gone bankrupt a decade ago. But everyone believes in Americas ability to pay it all back. People lost their trust in Greece though, so thats when the ***** hits the fan. Of course this isnt the only problem in Greece, but thats not our problem. The fact that they threaten the stability of the Euro is though. 

And the papers are full with it, saying this new crisis might spread to Italy, Spain and Portugal as well. I believe Portugal already got problems with a bunch of financial authorities. They just arent in such a bad shape that they need bailouts yet. 

[fukuda 351]

And the papers are full with it, saying this new crisis might spread to Italy, Spain and Portugal as well. I believe Portugal already got problems with a bunch of financial authorities. They just arent in such a bad shape that they need bailouts yet. quote>

Unluckily, most newspapers write what is convenient to them. Yes, Portugal was downrated yesterday by the almighty rating companies (yes, the same ones that rated Lehman Brothers as one of the most safe companes in its sector).

One of the main problems with all this is that what happens or is decided in the financial world isn't based on reality, it's based on what people believe or what others say about it (with lobbies pushing on all sides, obviously).

This has nothing to do with the company's or country's capacity to produce, withstand a crisis or whatever. It is related to what others say about or what it may seem from a distance.

It's all a matter of perception, I'd say.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

My perceptions of Greece:

• Home of Periclean Democracy, which is not what people believe democracy is;
• Wonderful archaeolical site;
• Birthplace of western civilization, maybe;
• Great spot for a vacation;

I would love to sit on Kythera with a glass of ouzo, a few grapes and olives and just bask in the sun.  Maybe Aphrodite would find me a suitable companion.

[mitsos 12,851]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Let us talk about the Greeks.  They seem to be in a lot of hot water.

Any Greeks I've known have been rather devil-may-care.  Do you suppose this attitude is now coming home to roost?

quote>

Interesting ,we bail out countrys now?

Does Greece produce anything?

this may be the problem with the whole wolrd wide economy. Not enough consumers.

companies that produce goods have to reach market saturation of dodads at somepoint and the rest of the world canot afford the products anyway. how many TV's do you need?

quote>

Once again, thank you Capitalist America. You guys did a great job at covering that up while making lots of money of it. 

Now we can bail those *****s out and pay for their ridiculous pensions and stuff. I mean seriously, in The Netherlands and Germany people are allowed into pension after they turn 67, in Greece it used to be 60 and now they upped it to 63. So we can pay for their early pensions.

And if we dont, the stability of the Euro will collapse and then the entire Eurozone is screwed. Gee, great. Once more, the honest hard working people are the victims of a bunch of *****s. 

And its not just Greece. Its every southern Euro country. Italy, Spain and Portugal are in trouble as well. They can collapse any moment as well, and we can bail them out as well. 

Also, it has nothing to do with their production capabilities. It has to do with their government spending and taking on lots of loans they now cant seem to pay back. They need to make huge cuts in the budget and get money from the EU in order to prevent them from going bankrupt. They shouldnt have been allowed in the Eurozone to begin with. 

quote>

Hi everyone, I ‘m Greek and I feel that I have to give some answers to those who believe that Greece is responsile for this mess in euroarea. But there are some facts that seems that you ignore. First of all you should know that my country spends every year up to 5% of its GDP  to protect our borders from the turkish aggressiveness. Moreover we spend a lot of money to protect Europe’s borders from illigal immigration.i’m sure that you don’t know that all these years we didn’t get a f… euro from EU.it is a  unbearable cost for us. Thirdly nobody donate us money.this money is just a loan and nothing else. Only Germany will earn more than 3 billion euros from that loan so this issue is out of question. As for the word you have used to discrabe us is at least offensive. The …..s are the american banks such as goldman sachs (or you can call it ‘sucks’ ) . there are many political issues behind the speculation against us. Wait and see what is going to happen to USA and EU in the next period. This is sick system that doesn’t working anymore. What is happening in Greece is going to happen in many countries .

at last we are the most hardly working people within the EU. (EUROSTAT )

[-Lexus- 2]

Mitros, no offense, but I dont buy that.

Look at the facts, Greeks can go with pension when they are 60 now upped to 63. We go with pension when we are 67. We still work 4 years longer then you guys. And yet we are the ones paying for your pension.

And yeah, you spend a lot of money on a stupid conflict with Turkey, a conflict that could have long been solved if you guys werent so freaking stubborn. Same can be said about the Turkish, okay, but they are not the ones having financial troubles. But okay, if that costs so much money, it simply means youve gotta divert money from other places to the army. Youve got a limited amount of money so it means you have to make choices on where to spend it. You cant have both, yet youve been spending it on both.

Besides that, you guys have been masking your problems for the EU for several years now. At some point you even put unofficial money into the Greek GDP making it look like it was okay. And you guys used Goldman Sachs to cover a lot of it up as well. It simply pisses me (and a lot of other people in my area) off that you guys failed to take responsibility and now come begging us for help. 

@Fukada, yeah its mainly psychology. But if they downrate Portugal it gives a negative message to the financial markets, which in turn cause negative consequences for Portugal and the euro. 

[TekindusT 3,809]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

It simply pisses me (and a lot of other people in my area) off that you guys failed to take responsibility and now come begging us for help. quote>

I want to think this affair is not a matter of "please, give us money because we can't pay our own expenditures" but a matter that can decide the stability of the whole Eurozone and the stability of the Euro in front of other currencies.

Originally posted by: mitsos

This is sick system that doesn’t working anymore. What is happening in Greece is going to happen in many countries .

quote>

I wouldn't be so sure about this. I don't want to be offensive but, although the Eurostat says Greece is the most hardworking country, it suffers an endemic low productivity as the other Southern European countries... The ones with a more developed industry and less brick-over-brick pointless construction will be the ones that will survive the Crisis.

[fukuda 351]

@Fukada, yeah its mainly psychology. But if they downrate Portugal it gives a negative message to the financial markets, which in turn cause negative consequences for Portugal and the euro. quote>

Indeed, you're absolutely right (my name is fukuda btw)

Originally posted by: TekindusT

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

It simply pisses me (and a lot of other people in my area) off that you guys failed to take responsibility and now come begging us for help. quote>

I want to think this affair is not a matter of "please, give us money because we can't pay our own expenditures" but a matter that can decide the stability of the whole Eurozone and the stability of the Euro in front of other currencies.quote>

It is, unfortunately. The speculators are getting stronger day by day as long as Ms. Merkel refuses to solve the issue. Most will do as much as possible to threaten the euro and sink at least Portugal as fast as they can. Yes, there are hedge funds and lobbies that publicly stated this kind of objectives some months ago and are working towards it.

Now, the Portuguese government and opposition are working together to get the country out of the deep well they've almost fallen into and there is hope. Spain is still not that weak, but I don't see the government and opposition working together at all.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

New topic:  Shanghai World Exhibition 2010.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

New topic:  Shanghai World Exhibition 2010.

quote>

Did they get the venue built?

There was article about in  NG that it was behind scheduel.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

New topic:  Shanghai World Exhibition 2010.

quote>

Did they get the venue built?

There was article about in  NG that it was behind scheduel.

quote>

It opened this week.  Link.

[BoxCarRacer 1]

Unrelated but it fits into the subject a bit.

I saw a commercial for dog food with all kinds of terrific healthy foods in it. It had real white meat chicken, fresh vegetables, and fresh fruits.

Why on earth are we americans wasting perfectly good people food on our dogs and cats and gerbils while there are billions starving not just in the poorer areas of our world but right here in our on country. It's kind of disgusting..

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Obviously because we like rover better than the guy starving in the alley.  Besides, urban pets have no way of feeding themselves, most are carnivores, and we have a moral obligation to not allow them to starve.  If you eon't like the idea of feeding pets, don't have them.

[Meastro444 1]

I love our Royal Family. And yes, when our government decides to abolish our Monarchy, there will be riots.

Lexus, don't touch 'em!

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: Meastro444

I love our Royal Family. And yes, when our government decides to abolish our Monarchy, there will be riots.

Lexus, don't touch 'em!quote>

Touch who? The Monarchy? Im not against the Monarchy. Not really anyways. 

[sneakeypete 16]

I wouldn't exactly call what they put in dog food, perhaps even the 'luxury' dog food, "good" food.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

What's all this nonsense about abolishing the Dutch royal family?  As a citizen of the country that gave them refuge in WW II, I most vociferously object.

Stupid people want to abolish monarchies world wide because of some misplaced idea that they can elect a head of state.  All that would do would be to increase election expense and cause much dislocation in any country that tried that.  God bless her Canadian Majesty, Elzabeth, by the Grace of God, Queen.

[TekindusT 3,809]

It's not only abolishing the monarchy, it's getting rid of all that royal family it comes with. You know, there's the King, the Queen, three or four sons/daughters who have three or four sons/daughters each.

You can keep the King or the Queen as a symbol, I see no problem; but I don't want to be the one paying their yachts, their holidays, their expensive cars and the nannies who take care of their three-year-old grandsons.

And more or less the same goes for Presidents of Dontknowhere Republic...

[Meastro444 1]

Who is Elzabeth?

In a previous post Lexus said they should abolish the monarchys, I took it a little personal.

[astronelson 339]

Originally posted by: Meastro444

Who is Elizabeth?quote>

Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, head of state of Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, and the United Kingdom.

She is also head of the Commonwealth of Nations (of which the above are a subset), but not necessarily head of state of each member of commonwealth.

The Commonwealth of Nations, incidentally, has a combined population somewhere in the vicinity of 2 billion people. The individual member states vary widely in population, from India (over 1 billion) to Nauru (about 10,000). Were it a single nation, it would be the world's largest, around 700 million people larger than China.

On a completely unrelated note, no-one knows the actual population of Angola, as they haven't had a census since 1970. Estimates range from 12.8 million to around 18.3 million.

[-Lexus- 2]

Huh? I never said I wanted to abolish the monarchy.

I do want them to pay more taxes over their income. They get quite a bit of money from the state and they dont pay taxes over it. That seems a little unfair, especially now that everyone is going to pay more taxes because the government needs to cut 18-30 billion euros in 4 years.

Besides, she is mostly a symbol now these days. She has very limited influence on some things and I dont mind that.  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Huh? I never said I wanted to abolish the monarchy.

I do want them to pay more taxes over their income. They get quite a bit of money from the state and they dont pay taxes over it. That seems a little unfair, especially now that everyone is going to pay more taxes because the government needs to cut 18-30 billion euros in 4 years.

Besides, she is mostly a symbol now these days. She has very limited influence on some things and I dont mind that.  quote>

Be careful what you ask for, you might get it, and then where would you be?

The long serving and suffering British royal family are on display 24/7 and only their personal wealth gathered over a millenium of service allows them to do so.  The Civil List in the U.K. doesn't even keep up the public buildings such as Buckingham Palace, which would become the residence of any new head of state, so then the whole expense would fall on the state.  If you look at the annual calendar of the royals published regularly in the Times of London, you will find that most of them take part in multiple public and private sessions per day.

Poor Queen.  She has to meet regularly with whatever git the peepul have coughed up as Prime Minister.  I am surprised she doesn't throw up on their shoes.

As for us, over here in Canada, the only expenses we regularly support are the costs of maintaining the Governor General, the Queen's representative, who has been Canadian for quite a while now.  The GG is accountable to the Auditor General, and, as head of state and commander of the Canadian forces, is on duty 24/7 just like any royal.  Our current one, Mme. Jean happens to be of Haitian origin which has been very handy in the recent crisis there.  Her term is up in September and notwithstanding pressures to extend her term for a year or two for which there is precedent, there is a process going on now to select and appoint a successor.

As for taxing the royal income, I assume this excludes the payments from the Civil List, which is tax money anyway.  Considering the amount of work the royals do, I wouldn't be upset if they were completely tax exempt.  After all, tax is the price of government, and you do need a head of state as a part of that government.  I think they earn their keep, and people should be wise to quit taking shots at people who do only good for them.

[Meastro444 1]

Originally posted by: astronelson

Originally posted by: Meastro444

Who is Elizabeth?quote>

Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, head of state of Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, the Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, and the United Kingdom.

She is also head of the Commonwealth of Nations (of which the above are a subset), but not necessarily head of state of each member of commonwealth.

The Commonwealth of Nations, incidentally, has a combined population somewhere in the vicinity of 2 billion people. The individual member states vary widely in population, from India (over 1 billion) to Nauru (about 10,000). Were it a single nation, it would be the world's largest, around 700 million people larger than China.

On a completely unrelated note, no-one knows the actual population of Angola, as they haven't had a census since 1970. Estimates range from 12.8 million to around 18.3 million.

quote>

I am not that oblivious to other nation's royal families Mister Nelson. I was poking at N_O_Body's spelling mistake.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Huh? I never said I wanted to abolish the monarchy.

I do want them to pay more taxes over their income. They get quite a bit of money from the state and they dont pay taxes over it. That seems a little unfair, especially now that everyone is going to pay more taxes because the government needs to cut 18-30 billion euros in 4 years.

Besides, she is mostly a symbol now these days. She has very limited influence on some things and I dont mind that.  quote>

Be careful what you ask for, you might get it, and then where would you be?

The long serving and suffering British royal family are on display 24/7 and only their personal wealth gathered over a millenium of service allows them to do so.  The Civil List in the U.K. doesn't even keep up the public buildings such as Buckingham Palace, which would become the residence of any new head of state, so then the whole expense would fall on the state.  If you look at the annual calendar of the royals published regularly in the Times of London, you will find that most of them take part in multiple public and private sessions per day.

Poor Queen.  She has to meet regularly with whatever git the peepul have coughed up as Prime Minister.  I am surprised she doesn't throw up on their shoes.

As for us, over here in Canada, the only expenses we regularly support are the costs of maintaining the Governor General, the Queen's representative, who has been Canadian for quite a while now.  The GG is accountable to the Auditor General, and, as head of state and commander of the Canadian forces, is on duty 24/7 just like any royal.  Our current one, Mme. Jean happens to be of Haitian origin which has been very handy in the recent crisis there.  Her term is up in September and notwithstanding pressures to extend her term for a year or two for which there is precedent, there is a process going on now to select and appoint a successor.

As for taxing the royal income, I assume this excludes the payments from the Civil List, which is tax money anyway.  Considering the amount of work the royals do, I wouldn't be upset if they were completely tax exempt.  After all, tax is the price of government, and you do need a head of state as a part of that government.  I think they earn their keep, and people should be wise to quit taking shots at people who do only good for them.

quote>

If the Queen pays taxes over the 'pocket money' she gets from the state where would we be? Well it would just be a little more fair. I mean, they have jobs and they get paid for that and they taxes over that I believe, but they also get paid by the state but they dont have to pay taxes over that part. Would that be a bad thing? 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The way you put it is sounds like a tax on a tax.  It would be a salary cut.  Any volunteers?

[Duke87 1,070]

So... no talk about this, huh?

[Mikeaut1 261]

Originally posted by: Duke87

So... no talk about this, huh?

quote>

I was actually going to post about this in either a new topic or in here! 

Scary stuff, but the public and the NYPD did an outstanding job in Times Sq.

Now the guy is confessing to it and is cooperating with the FBI. He's also from Pakistan and has made long distance calls to contacts there while spending his time in Connecticut and NY.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

The way you put it is sounds like a tax on a tax.  It would be a salary cut.  Any volunteers?

quote>

No, it would be a tax cut. Someone who isnt paying any taxes is going to pay taxes over money that she received through taxes. So she gets less so we can pay less.