Sim Medieval thread

[Timmystwin 201]

I agree... again. Just skimming through, you mentioned the middle ages were colourfull? wait till you see my stalls.......( pic will be uploaded when i can be bothered) I also think that the degredation of history is horrible, i know someone who asked if King John was invented for robin hood and if America really was originally British. Ripping ensued.

Anyone want to start on the buildings he mentioned?........... (ive got 4 on the go already,Blacksmith, Brickmaker, Charcoal maker, Market/warehouse.)

[thingfishs 416]

dude, you are nuts!! (but I'm sure you're already aware of that) That is a huge chunk of info, thanks a lot. As I've said to you, I don't believe in setting a rule as to what people can and can't contribute and if some people want to create a more fantasy version of this period I say let them. But I personally want to "keep it real", and towards this end, your input is invaluable. So what about paths and fences etc. ? What type of materials would be used by HW/LW? In LOTTing the backyards etc. it's hard to know quite what to go for.

Who would have fences? Also what size were blocks, should I have more houses on 2x2 or 2x3 than the 1x2 & 1x1 that I've primarily been using?

[Myself.or.? 5]

@Crachdtoothgrin

As much as I like the 'medieval feel' of of games like Fable or Oblivion, I do agree that for this purpose we should aim for the most realistic approach as possible. That's exactly what this game has always been about after all. If you take a look at my list you'll notice that I included various styles and periods, from 'dark age' to tudor and northern timber frame to the Renaissance period of Venice and Florence. It's then up to whoever wants to BAT and lot to decide where to go. IMO it would be interesting to keep a variety of those, just as you outlined for the various densities. The cities, from Luebeck up north via Brugge down to Italy evolved. The villages stayed almost the same for a thousand years.

As for Wikipedia,...

For whoever wants to get a feel of what we could be talking about, here a few suggestions:

Germany 1500 - 1650 ca. (mainly timber frame) - http://europeforvisitors.com/germany/harz/wernigerode-photos.htm

a portal about medieval history with history, maps and photos - http://historymedren.about.com/lr/medieval_cities/440833/2/

a collection of 100's of photos (architecture and daily life) - http://www.webshots.com/search?query=medieval+europe+channel%3Atravel+media%3Aphoto&queryChannel=travel&start=0

history, photos, literature,... of everything British - http://www.britainexpress.com/History/medieval_britain_index.htm

another portal, taking you from 500 to 1500 - http://www.42explore2.com/medieval.htm

and a third portal - http://www.tms.riverview.wednet.edu/lrc/middle_ages.htm

medieval architecture - http://www.terragalleria.com/pictures-subjects/medieval-architecture/medieval-architecture.8.html

A few other towns just by name: Prague, Rothenburg ob der Tauber, Brugge, Brussels, York, Luebeck, Brasov, Edinburgh, Avignon, Krakov

EDIT

@thingfishs

I would avoid 1x1 and 1x2. Space mattered the wrong way around in those days. In the countryside people lived under 'one roof' with the beasts and accordingly the houses were bigger (or more than one made for a single lot). In towns buildings may have been 2x1, but often had courtyards which would make them 2x2 or 2x3. The only place where I can see smaller lots are in cities (like London). It's not by chance that the great fire burned down the whole place and not just a couple of blocks. But in the end it comes again down to which period and style your talking about as a thousand years of time and a thousand kiloeters of distance make quite a difference.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

I would be interesting to see a wide variety of types displayed... Maybe include all regions within a broad time per tileset? Like, early medieval for houston tileset, high medieval for new york, etc. And then, certain people could go for a certain rgion when they started BATting?

As much as I like timber-frame or lattice-work late medieval, I am in love with pre-romanesque architecture and the social structure prior to the black death shifting the agrarian economy into one with a labor defecit, and the beginnings of a crude wage system.

The whole thing could be open for massive interpretation, and although my help will be available for all, I will focus on historicity throughout. That's just the way I am.

thingfishs:

The materials for low wealth change a lot depending upon location and time. However, as a matter of generalities, the poorest will live in wooden-framed, wattle and daub lean-to cottages, with ground to peak rooftops, or have cob or fieldstone houses

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Medieval_Life/images/houses.jpg

http://outlookonengland.com/Images/pottery%202096.jpg

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Medieval_Life/images/stickstraw.jpg

some examples

As for the rich ones, you can find pictures online all over the place, since those were the ones that survived to this day.

[thingfishs 416]

a couple of shots:

I have changed the texture of a pedmall connector piece so that it blends in with the mountain trails. (without the need for mass transit)

(a small medical clinic, or Apothecarist. As with all of this I don't know what is historically accurate so I am depending on people like CTG to assist. From garden layout, to fences, to paths, props,  - you name it...

(now ignore the awful lotting on this, I am still just getting a feel for the overall concept. This one is a hospital, using one of kwakelaar's excellent monastery BATs.)

The tileset idea could work well... And as we are right at the beginning of this venture we have that freedom to assign everything to one or more tilesets. Have a think about the best 4 ways of classifying this period.

Thanks for the info & links  myself & CTG (if I can call you that )

 

 

[Myself.or.? 5]

Your idea about the tilesets is fantastic. That way different periods could be accomodated without creating too much chaos.

As much as I love timber-frame (grew up with it), my favorite periods are the days of William the Conquerer (there just ain't much left from before) up to the crusades alongside Gothic architecture. Basically I'm talking 800 - 1400.

EDIT

A first idea of classification:

1) early medieval; anglo-saxon  and roman (french) influenced

2) high medieval; anglo-saxon  and roman (french) influenced

3) iberian peninsular, eastern mediterranean; arab (moorish) influenced

4) renaissance

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

The timeframe we're talking about is pretty massive, too.

It might be worth it to make both growable and ploppable versions of each release. That way, people canhave a lot more customization options.

It's also worth it to note that not all houses would be perfectly square. A lot of them had non-parallel walls. A consequence of building without a solid knowledge of math or modern tools.

I'm getting ready to do a test building, just for s's and g's, and see where that takes me.

EDIT: I brought this up in pm to thingfishs, but the 'water' and 'power' civics could be switched to 'agriculture' and 'commodities' (given the lack of either resource in modern terms), to better simulate agrarian vs. urban settlements.

Farms, etc. could be given the water quality, and sent in neighbor deals to urban centres, which would, in turn, give the 'commodities' (artisan products, etc.) for food. It could be a rudimentary way of establishing rural vs. urban life.

[Myself.or.? 5]

Not sure about the last one. IMO this shouldn't be (and never has been) about recreating social structures, for that there are plenty of other games around. SC4 is a CityBuilder and I think we should keep it this way.

As for the utilities, water was definitely a needed resource in any type of human existence and using wells (in all shapes and sizes) should be kept as it is (plus local quirks, as in leftover roman acqueducts or underground reservoirs).

For the power question it might be worthwhile to ask 'another great mind'. He seems to have found a way around it.

[jacqulina 162]

fantastic work here

[Kwakelaar 92]

Quite an interesting discussion here. I thought I might show you some pictures from my MD Andau sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php. This is not so much about making a medieval simcity as it is about developing a city through history.

These images are taken from the time just after the Roman conquest of Gallia and shows my interpretation of this period translated into Simcity4.

Here is an overview of the town

Some images with a little more detail

[timcravey 168]

Fascinating project!

[glazert 89]

I am really interested in what is being shown here. Some posts have shown what a lot of relevant material is out there already. In terms of city design (by which I mean to include hamlets, villages, towns), I can't see a grid layout as being "medieval", except in a few places which may have inherited a Roman layout. I would think that FAR (fractionally angled) roads and street would help to make more realistic layouts.

[Timmystwin 201]

Wow, this project is moving along at a startling pace, i cant keep up. Good to see lots of interest.

[Myself.or.? 5]

Hi kwakelaar,

pleased to see that you heard my calling.  Guess who's the 'great mind' I was talking about earlier.

@glazert

As much as you may be right storically speaking, the problem might be that buildings just don't grow fractional. To keep things 'easy' (seeing the amount of work that needs to be done), IMO we should stick mainly to the grid.

[Timmystwin 201]

Here is a quick hut that i made, and with the odd texture swap and improvement i think you could get 4 or 5 buildings from it.

It is a bit square and chunky though, i will see what i can do.

[Myself.or.? 5]

There's either a conspiration going on that I missed or a bunch of people are just heading into the same direction by chance.

Did you already see this one?    https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=10000.0;topicseen

Take a look at the Bright House (in todays post), it's the closest to what we want to do that I've seen so far.

[Timmystwin 201]

I think i lit the blue touchpaper by putting this up....... I might start working on some smaller buildings like wells and such. Parks too.

[jacqulina 162]

sounds great

[Timmystwin 201]

Just looked at those models, they are brilliant!!! And i agree, its what we should aim for.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

I have numerous points of both BAT and historical criticism with the models...

It's definitely not the direction to go for accuracy...

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Neat project here.

[madhatter106 3,903]

Originally posted by: Crackdtoothgrin

I have numerous points of both BAT and historical criticism with the models...

It's definitely not the direction to go for accuracy...quote>

Well, to play devil's advocate, there may be lots of different building styles in any given city that a Simtropolis/SC4 player may create.  The stock exchange that's built 100 years ago may have a "googie" bowling alley growing next to it; the craftsman homes may have modern loft-style apartments next door.

What you're expressing is similar to the idea that when you do a period movie, EVERYTHING has to be narrowed down to the mode and style and architecture of that period; some don't take into account the fact that not everyone builds their house at the same time, nor do they toss our their clothes and purchase new when that year's new line comes out.  Nor do they only drive 2010 cars, or have 2010 haircuts.  There could conceivably be a broad spectrum represented.

I love your attention to detail and verisimilitude that you've shown in your posts on this project - it's something that I constantly juggle with at work, but there needs to be a balance struck between outright disregard for logic and research, and painstaking conformity to said research.  There's a fine line to toe from "authentic and accurate" to "slaveish and tunnel-visioned."  Not that I'm saying your posts come off as such, but they could certainly be interpreted as pedantic in a cynic's eyes.

Ultimately it's all just a game, and we're having fun, and you're right in that "medieval" covers a huge chunk of time and varieties between regions; I'd hate to see you deny your contributions to something like this over a lack of 100% accuracy. 

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

Originally posted by: madhatter106

Ultimately it's all just a game, and we're having fun, and you're right in that "medieval" covers a huge chunk of time and varieties between regions; I'd hate to see you deny your contributions to something like this over a lack of 100% accuracy.  quote>

I was referencing the 'Bright House' model (and its associates), which are ripped from an anime medieval-esque game. They are not medieval. If anything, they are post-renaissance or even early industrial age architecture. Too gamey for my tastes. That, and I just think that they are bad BAT's. That's a personal taste, though.

I wasn't saying that I wouldn't be helping at all. At least I wasn't intending that, despite what I wrote, haha. So, I'll backpedal and say that I will help more on the accuracy of the project as opposed to the opposite. It's not like this is an established BAT Team, or anything (yet, maybe...). But I'll only make and download architecture that is medieval, or pre-medieval (for already existing structures, etc.). The houses are the big thing. For the most part, they stayed largely the same until the Black Death forced the labor surplus into a labor defecit and established a functioning wage-based system, albeit poorly represented and still fuedal in practice well into the earliest parts of the industrial age (in some parts). The biggest variety in all models would be in stonework, from pre-romanesque to romanesque, gothic, dark ages (for prior-existing buildings), and also in trades.

I agree that this should be broad, but regardless of the exact age chosen, it should still be medieval, should still be representative of realistic architecture, and should be identifiable, in my opinion.

I'm not saying "Everybody should make mid-13th century Languedocian rural buildings!" or something like that. But if someone makes a 'medieval' building and it is actually two or three hundred years later than the period, I'll have something to say. In either case, I'll still contribute, albeit rather on the historical side more so than anything else.

Hope that keeps me from sounding like a pedantic ass, haha. The reason for such lengthy posts is my tendency to 'Go Kerouac' in conversation, and wanting to provide the information in one place so that people don't have to spend all the time that I did researching it. They could just find it in one simple place. That's the goal anyways.

[thingfishs 416]

I completely agree with you both.  As I've expressed a number of times, I think it's essential (not just important) that people be able to contribute their take on medieval, just as they are able to with the regular game. People can then download what they want to make their place, their way.  On the other hand I have already learnt a lot from CTG and have greatly appreciated his ana.... um, pedantic nature.  Someone like them is a great asset to such an enterprise; and having that sort of an informational resource around, if only to glean from, is invaluable. 

As for the tileset idea, I can't help thinking we've got enough on our plate just trying to get one whole(ish) version of the game together. Maybe we could just utilise two of the tilesets and everything could be grouped into (using whatever the appropriate terms would be), urban, rural or urban & rural.... thoughts?

I have now put together getting close to 100 lots, primarily from existing buildings (although I have 3 house designs of my own that I'm working on) These are primarily R$ & C$ 1x2 & 2x2 stage 1 & 2 buildings. However they still aren't growing as expected. Although there is water, power, health coverage and strong demand.... I will keep trying to work out what's going on. What I want to get is a basic, fully functional setup (with highly repetitive buildings) first. Then I can continue with the mass lotting etc that I've been doing and start the main task of fleshing out all the RC & I. Can someone help me formulate a plan for this? What (for eg) is fundamentally necessary for stage 2 development?

Oh & "go Kerouac" all you like 

[Timmystwin 201]

/\ same, i agree that some people want realism, but im gonna put in a bit of fantasy lunacy in my models.

[ionionion 69]

hello

First of all: my apologies for any mistakes of writing, I'm not a native English speaker so I'll be brief.

Now I build a region of medieval society and such as Kwakelaar my desire is to evolve in time to the Modern Era and even more in the future.

current situation:

Residential Pop 60433 ~ 87% $, 12% $$, 1% $$$ 

Commercial Pop 9523 ~ 81% CS ( 80% $, 20 $$ ) 18% CO $$ and 1% CO$$$ ( In most cases I ignore the request for CO )

Industrial Pop 34102 - depending by city request and travel distans ( in urban area i use only ID 80% and IM 20% )

The comercial and industrial entities are scattered among the houses to be easy for pedestrian access.

I use the NAM simulator Z and the graphic option for city detail is set to low ( for no trafic automata to the zoom 5 )

90% of lotts ar 1x1 tile, remastered to not include vehicles, vegetation and street furniture, are set for "Style Chicago" and growth stage 1-4

depends on residential zone types, capacity is set between 5 and 30

Industrial and comercial are mostly ploped with capacity of 50 - 100 for "C", 500 for "ID" and "IM" the reason is to control and reduse cargo trafic.

water only where needed

NO schools

NO hospital

The presence of "CO" and "CS"$$$ is due the status of some ploped building that act as park and landmark, can be ignored.

Tips:

an intersection contains a maximum of three entries

The strets ar winding, short and always discharge in a building

Start from a center and spread in a radial maner.

remove the base texture of a lot - is better and more real to be painted later with flora ( dirt, stone, grass )

Make clear distinction between homes in urban and rural areas. all you have presented so far are doing well in rural areas where density was something like 1-2 houses in 50-500 meters of the road. (farm house type)

In urban areas (small towns or fortified cities), density was so high that the sun does not reach the street.

P.S.

again, my apologies for any mistakes of writing.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

Originally posted by: Timmystwin

/\ same, i agree that some people want realism, but im gonna put in a bit of fantasy lunacy in my models.quote>

And that's fine. I'm not the God of Historical Gaming or some crap. But if your fantasy touch includes creating a building that isn't actually representative of medieval architecture in the slightest (not that you have, as this is a conjecture), then it might be worthwhile to change this idea to SimHistoric or something. Sure, that would cover a much larger time period, and it would allow the more fantastic models to be reasonably included.

Ultimately, it's the downloader's choice to get any one building or the other. However, anything I make for this will be period-accurate and I will specify as to which period and where. (That is, assuming I ever finish anything or even get the time to do so.)

On another note, I wish my BAT thread got this much attention. It's nice to see that this site is somewhat active, haha.

[Timmystwin 201]

Thats a good thing, as my models wont be. They will be sort of ish medieval.

and technically, this isnt my BAT thread, its a thread for all things Simedieval.

[HeXy 246]

Originally posted by: thingfishs

a couple of shots:

-greatness here-

 

 quote>

I'd just like to say well done, these look wonderful.. and remind me of one of my favourite games of yesteryear -  Actraiser (snes).. Seeing these shots made me want to play it   Very nice work!

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

For anyone who's interested, within the next couple of weeks (or months?) I should have the following completed:

11th-15th Century Cruck Houses, in both English/Norman, French, and Germanic Style.

10th-13th Century Celtic/Celtiberian/Scottish Cottages

13th-15th Century Half-Timbered Houses in a variety of styles

11th-12th Century Wooden and Stone Motte and Baileys in Norman styles

10th-15th Century Moorish/Spanish Houses (Rural and Urban)

10th-15th Century Russian Khatas and Izbas, in Kievan, Novgorodian, Karelian, and Zaporozhyian styles

There will likely be more, but those are the ones I can definitely get to work on.

In addition to the usual angles, I plan on rendering them diagonally, in a variety of angles, so that people can use the model files with the different transit sets and custom lots...

Unfortunately, I don't know what other angles besides the regular 45 degrees. Are one of the FAR's roads at 12.5 degrees? I think I saw that somewhere.

And, most single-family rural houses of the time, as a guideline for others BATting, were around 10m by 6m. I hope this helps.