Sim Medieval thread

[Timmystwin 201]

BUILDING LIST

EDIT

We have ye website on thee interweb : looke here http://simmedieval.activeboard.com/

Sim Medieval is an ongoing project, which, like sim mars, will take sim city into the realm of the 1200's ish.

Aesthetic ideas

Block all maxis content using a mod i found.

BAT your own buildings like resi and ind

Make schools and stuff to replace maxis buildings. (although they will still be in the menus- although maybe not, it might be possible.)

Use the SAM or mountain trail pedmall. to make roads look like there from the 1200s

My only problem is the in game automata, does anyone know how to remove them? The cars would ruin it.

EDIT

The automata has been sorted, Jeiman2008 said he would make me a mod. CHEERS 

[Timmystwin 201]

MARKET

This is the market building i have made. Dont worry about the roof texture, i am fixing it.

[Timmystwin 201]

BLACKSMITH

Here is the blacksmith, but, like the others, it is just a base picture.

[iowndiscti 141]

maybe you dont need to remove the automata, maybe you can just relot them to make them all look like horses?

[Timmystwin 201]

 Brickmakers

And iowndiscti,  that is a good solution, and i will work on trying to get that done.

[thingfishs 416]

It's good that it has it's own thread now. Keep at it but remember to be patient, for something like this to work properly it will take time (and help). Your textures still have ways to go but texturing is the hardest part (other than complicated night lights perhaps)

It's pretty weird (and cool) to see this idea of mine coming together (and in someone else's hands). I'll be sure to contribute when I have some other creations sorted. My main recommendation is to start making a list with links to already released medieval era lots (maybe edit your first post)

I think it will be psychologically useful to see how many things there are already (that this isn't starting from absolute square one) Also it will make it easier to see what needs to be done.

As for horse automata, it's an idea that's been "floated" before, and I remember someone spent some time trying to sort it out (but I'm not sure if they were successful). I'll let you know if I come across any further info on it.

[Timmystwin 201]

I know that the wall textures need work.... A lot of work. Im going to perfect these three now, although i have a lot of useless untextured base models to work on aswell.

[Slashback 136]

Wow, this looks cool. It allows you to put some history into your cities!

[Timmystwin 201]

not only that, it should, when finished, allow you to make whole working historical cities. Hopefully.

[madhatter106 3,905]

I think the modelling needs a little work, before you dive into the textures. Right now they resemble basic shapes - there are no overhangs to the roofs, everything looks a bit flat, and they need some more details in 3D.

There's great potential for this project. I'd look at models in games like Stronghold, or Battle for MiddleEarth, or Majesty for inspiration...

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

To be honest, my area of expertise when it comes to architecture is in the High Medieval Period. I'd be down to help.

However, when you say 'Medieval,' you have to be more specific than that.

Pre-Romanesque? Romanesque? Gothic?

Nordic? Brthyonic/Celtic? English? French? German? Arabic? etc...

There has to be some convention, or you will basically be recreating World of Warcraft without the ridiculous assortment of races.

As to the models, what style were you going for there? Is the roof supposed to be thatched? The walls wattle and daub or cob? And the windows... Why the 'inner frames'? Clear glass for windows wasn't regularly used until the 16th century when the Venetians invented Cristallo. Mosaic glass for stained glass windows were sometimes used in the period, but almost exclusively in churches. Many buildings of the time just covered the windows with shutters and tapestries/drapes/etc. or used translucent oilskins. You should really have shutters on them.

The pattern of the wood grain on the buildings makes them look like toys, as it is too pronounced (i.e. overscaled), and (as you may have guessed from literally every critique of every BAT on this site) needs to be desaturated. The furnace itself is of some unknown construction. Metal? If so, it wouldn't be. Not in this period. It would be of stone or brick. The roof also contains unneccesary dormers, unless the bulidings are intended to be workshop/homes. Right now, they look like they were ripped straight from 18th century English colonies, or the bastardization of Fable 2's architecture, with plaster and lath walls, wooden shingles, and glass windows... Hardly period appropriate.

You also need more 'junk.' The smithy should have barrels of water, tools, benches... They should have horseshoes, bands for the coopers, wood for the fire, a place to stable horses (The blacksmith shoed the horses. One of his most important functions.)... The presence of a sign is a matter of personal taste. In many communities, the ubiquitous need for a blacksmith wouldn't necessitate one, as the building itself would be evidence enough as to the business contained therein. An exercise in redundancy, unless this is intended to be part of a 'metropolitan' medieval blacksmithy, in which case such delineation as to the contained profession may be applicable.

Assuming you're going for the 'fantasy medieval' ideal, the tradition is latticed wattle and daub, thatched roofs (or maybe wooden shingles), cantilevered buildings (or 'jetties'), high roof peaks, and romanesque/gothic church architecture. However, if you were going the brythonic/celtic route, the building could be organically designed to 'grow' from the ground, and would contain turf as part of the structure, cob walls, thatched reed rooftops, little to no windows, and excessive use of straw. Iberian medieval architecture would also follow this route, but would incorporate more stone, and less of a need for high-peaked roofstops, as the snowfall is less, same for Balkan, but with a little Mediterranean. Mediterranean architecture would follow standard conventions for Roman styles, terra cotta tiles, some 'classical' ideals on some buidings (largely inherited from Roman-period structures), otherwise following Germanic/French traditions the further north you went. Southern Iberian/Moorish architecture would incorporate a vastly different style of building. Far more artistic as well...

The list goes on and on.

In any case, what are you actually aiming for?

Sorry if the critique seemed harsh, by the way. I'm just trying to help.

EDIT: What buildings do you plan on making, by the way? I can think of over two hundred off the top of my head that would need to be created for this to really be effective, at least for me. The vast majority of those are professional buildings too. (Maybe blacksmiths/tanners/artisans/etc. could form the 'Industry' of the mod?)

And, is it even possible to replace the automata with horses? That would be an interesting concept.

[Timmystwin 201]

Thats fine, and you obviously put a lot of thought into that. Not bieng as well educated as you are, i went for the Fable 2 look, with some towns with tiled roofs but the smaller buildings have thatch. This is why the blacksmith and the brickmaker have decent roofs, while the low wealth barn thingy just has thatch. Im going to work on the textures a bit.

 

If you can suggest ideas for the windows that would be great as im really at a loss with them. The only examples i could be bothered to find when i was making them (it was 11:30 for most windows) were on Fable, and they look quite modern.

In an answer to your style question, i think a British medieval feel is what im going for, but im tempted to make some gothic stuff to add variety.

Sorry for the lack of chronology in my reply, but he ho, life goes on. I hope you are willing to contribute in future.

EDIT

Forgot to mention walls, its the same as the thatch vs tile thing, inner town buildings will have stone whereas farmhouses will be wood/ wattle and daub/ whatever looks cheap.

And buildings wise, the sky is the limit. I will continually test it in game once i have enough, just to make sure i have enough to give a good variety, but the more the better. And thats where everyone else comes in, hopefully my mediocre BATs will be bolstered by some good BATs from other people. If not, I shall soldier on regardless.

This is only speaking for me, and i welcome any other BATter to do what they want and post pics, i wont pick and chose what you can and cant release or make, and if you do release anything, can you post a link so i can mention it in the first release.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

For the windows, if you are going for a 'British' 13th century look, and, I'm assuming, a 'metropolitan-centered' approach (I use metropolitan loosely here), as opposed to village buildings, then either thatched or wooden shingled roofs, cantilevered, wattle and daub and latticed walls, and for the windows, just square openings with external shutters. If you want, an oilskin could over the interior (make it opaque and only slightly translucent) as a 'window', or have a drape/tapestry of some sort.

For the chimney flue, it's very important that it is made to be higher than the roof and the roofs of surrounding buildings. You wouldn't want embers to catch the whole town on fire. It may even worth it to mention that in the information when and if you release it, so it gets placed properly.

Many of the houses (since not everyone is going to have those 'classic' medieval forms), will be stone or cob (maybe plastered, maybe not) with thatched roofs, and some lacking chimneys, but possessing a 'flap' on the roof to serve the same purpose, with a small section of open space and fencing to contain livestock within the house, since a lot of people didn't possess their own barn.

On a slightly related note, it may be useful to investigate if it's possible to include more than horses as automata. Pigs, cattle, chickens, wagons...

And, if you're doing medieval architecture, it might be a good idea to do buildings of earlier Dark Age structure, as some forms would have carried over. Especially churches.

And, you should make lots of varieties of manor houses. And fields. And walls. And businesses. And mills, fairgrounds, keeps/castles/baileys/mottes, bridges, ruins...

But absolutely no dragons. I can't stress this enough.

[Timmystwin 201]

AAAAAAAA loads of corrections AAAAAAAAA. O well. But i can assure you, there WILL be NO dragons. Unless there is a Dragon And Dog Pub for example.

Im off to BAT like a speared hog, you may not get too many updates for a while as i have an exam in two weeks.

[thingfishs 416]

Once I saw Jeiman's mod I had to give it a go.

I created a quick model which I gave a number of texture variations and lots - in R$ & CS$ configurations. I also downloaded as many period BATs as I could find (although with their current settings none have actually grown yet). Then I made my first proof of concept city:

(Disclaimer: just the first experiment)

This is a functioning city, it has houses, shops, farms, water (peg's spring pond thing), power (yeah I know... but the game needs it - via mrbisonm's energy gravel pile), hospital and a school - all in broadly medieval form. Only the fire and police are still in their current forms)

Pedestrians can walk a fair way and can use mountain trail pedmalls to get to work. Houses of course can only be placed on streets (in this case SAM), but businesses can be placed on streets or pedmalls. With some creativity one could arrange a visually attractive as well as functional town. I placed a few of my downloads in town (mostly kwakelaar's stuff) plus the civics. As mentioned none grew (they will need their stages/capacities/sizes etc adjusted), but I did find quite a few nice existing creations. Also many historic buildings in their modern form (with car parks etc) that with some relotting & modding could be great additions. Last but not least - this thing may work, or may not. I just think now that the cats out of the bag that it's time to try and actively seek interest. So if you are interested in this period/idea/mad venture and can contribute somehow, let us know.

So whaddyall think?

[Timmystwin 201]

BRILLIANT!!! I pop on to the computer to see whats on, and not only is there a automata mod made, you have created a working city!!!!!!! This is brilliant. Honestly, it makes me feel less overwhelmed by the amount of work to do. Am i right in saying the cement trucks appear? Any one want to reskin them to horses?.......

[Pieman6711 211]

This looks like this would be a very successful sim.

[Timmystwin 201]

Here is the automata plugin thing that removes traffic (other than garbage trucks and such. Re-skinning experts step forward please). I realised it was on my BAT thread and not here.

Sim Medievial AutomataTests1.zip

[thingfishs 416]

Glad you like it! Yes the cement trucks still appear, along with school buses etc there's still a lot of little details like that to be ironed out, but I feel it's a big step in the right direction. My next plan is to re-lot/mod a bunch of the buildings I downloaded so they can grow and look appropriate too.

[Jeiman2008 21]

I really Like thingfishs' concept city and  I have to agree on the appeal of Sim Medieval.  Sim Mars is really cool, but I  like the medieval concept more.

Also I have to say I'm grateful to have contributed and have feedback on my automata tuning because it helps me to understand it better and improve my tuning endeavours.   I will continue to work on it and see what I can do about civic vehicles.

[thingfishs 416]

OK, update time:

So phase two I found and relotted some period buildings and so the variety is growing

 

[Timmystwin 201]

, every time i quickly pop on it gets better!!!! My BATs are lacking something....quality i think so i will continue to work on them. Good to see it isnt just me trying to make it work. Still have my German speaking in two weeks though and ive got a lot to learn. Damn. Im so tempted to open up the BAT.

[Myself.or.? 5]

Just love the idea and how you actually got this thing moving. I had been thinking about something similar for ages, but...

P.S.: Should you require some hep with your exam, just let me know. German happens to be my first language.

BTW, check this out: https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=10531.msg318393#msg318393 (down at half page)

[Timmystwin 201]

I will check it out, and cheers for the offer of help, but its just learning the many answers and questions that i will be asked, i could answer them well enough normally but will get a higher mark if i can say the answer quicker.

EDIT

Do you mind me copying that and putting it here? That would really help the thread.

[Myself.or.? 5]

Fair enough. Good luck!!!

EDIT: Just feel free to copy. The idea was to help the thread, so I guess it might come in handy over here aswell.

EDIT2:  Just copied it myself.

"Just to give this project a small push I'm taking up your idea of a link list. It's far from complete and includes various styles and time periods (not necessarily all fitted for your Fable idea, which I share btw, but still...), aswell as models that would have to be adjusted to fit in. Whoever feels like it is more than welcome to add to the list.

Here we go:

RESIDENTIAL

Medieval house - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=11675

TSC - medieval houses pack - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=21490

French Medieval lot 2 GROW - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18910

French Medieval Lot 3 GROW - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18919

French Medieval House - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18903

BSC RP Elstow Timber Framed Set - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=12592

Village Pack - 9 new houses from Zeeland, the Netherlands  - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=22379

Zeeland, the Netherlands - 11 Cottages pack - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=22324

Havoc Tudor Town House - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2950

BSCBATProps_MattB325_Vol01 - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=281

Mattb325 King George House - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1483

COMMERCIAL and INDUSTRIAL

Pub The Red Stallion - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=11618

BLS The Foxhunters' Arms - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=519

TSC Team corn exchange - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=19664

Ratskellermedieval tavern - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2518

Underground Mine - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=17088

SFBT Fritz's Farm by voltaic - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2320

Modular Medieval Port - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=23513

Medieval Sailing Ship - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=23514

Wharfside revisited - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=14951

PEG PPond Finns Landing - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=22739

BSC RP Star Inn - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=13126

Mills Brothers - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=17878

Slakter Haaland - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18696

UK Horse And Jockey Pub BSC - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=364

The Fox and Hounds - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=12945

UK Royal Oak pub - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=971

BLS Miscellaneous lots for Diggis CAN-AM mod - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2251

CSX Mansion - Dalene - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=146

Kwakelaar Large Market Hall - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=52

CHURCHES

Abbaye de Pontigny - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1323

Vienna Votivkirche - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=753

JENX Great St Martin Cologne - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1546

CAL St Nicholas Church - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=12

UK Village Church St Bartholomews - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=358

JENX Antwerp Cathedral Revisited - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1399

Fountains Abbey - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=23450

TSC - ClunyIII Abbey - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=21489

BLaM FC St Felicitys Cemetary - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=17778

Basilica di Sant Ambrogio - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=16875

JENX Munsterkerk update - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2275

BLaM St Felicity - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=17774

Dutch Church Spaarnwoude - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=17456

Eglise SaintPierre Saive - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=14403

St Georges Church - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2635

CIVICS and UTILITIES

Nexis Sand-Gravelpile Energy - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=23564

TSC Team siege well - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=19666

Roulback TSC Frontenac Museum - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2334

Hospices of Beaune - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=21488

Biblioteca general - http://descargas.capitalsim.net/?sitio=csc&descargar=756

Private Clinic Medieval house - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2613

Medieval City Hall - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2542

TSC Team Popes Palace of Avignon - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=19663

Fine Arts College Medieval House - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2693

BLaM Anvil Museum - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18175

Middle Ages Castle Museum v1 - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2941

Dutch Stellingmolen - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=22284

Old University - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2910

PEG PPOND Water Mill - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=21697

BLaM St Katherines Priory - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=17990

CSX Rural - Springwater - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1326

FrogfaceAqueduct - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=11213

CSX Theatre - B Winterton - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=161

CAL Summerton Mill BSC - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=71

CSX Civic - Aldeburgh Library - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=195

CSX Civic - Mayor's Office - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=196

CASTLES, WALLS, GATES

Castle 1100 AD puzzel pieces - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=16490

PEG Puerta De Pego - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18610

Zierikzee: the medieval city gate series - Noordhavenpoort - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=22607

Zierikzee: the medieval city gate series - Nobelpoort - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=22543

Zierikzee: the medieval city gate series - Zuidhavenpoort - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=22536

JENX Burg Eltz V12 - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=18928

JBAT Castle Wall Set - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2497

TSC Team bridge tower - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=19665

City walls 1100 AD puzzel pieces - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=16487

Castle walls - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2797

French Castle - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=2281

Age of Empires II Castle - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=17638

RUINS

Underworlds Ruins - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=14155

Underworld Ruins II - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=14601

VARIOUS

Underworld bat textures - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=11844

BLS JENX Passenger Station - https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1563 (yes, I know. They didn't have trains back then, but the building could be useful.)

LNX Sea port LOTR Props - LNX Sea port LOTR Props

Nexis Cross on the Rocks - https://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=15958

Plus a lot of MBEAR's mediterranean series and most of the Manchou Village Packs by TSC. Furthermore I suspect some stuff on here, I just don't understand polish: http://www.simcitypolska.pl/news.php

That's it for now. Anybody knows how make these lists saving space?

HAPPY EASTER EVERYBODY!!!"

[thingfishs 416]

Thanks again for that HUGE list, it's an immediately valuable resource. Legend

[Timmystwin 201]

This will help people to no end im sure, ich finde das nutzlich!!!! ( i hope thats right, and i cant do umlauts.)

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

Okay, I think that there has to be some kind of consensus as to what the general 'goal' of this is. It's vaguely outlined, but I don't want a lack of authenticity to make this basically a simulator of Fable or something.

For instance, which building style is being aimed for? I know timmystwin has said he's personally going for a general 'British' feel, but that needs to take in some considerations.

For instance, I gave a few examples of building ideas above in another post. When I did that, I was also going more 'general' than anything else. In 1221, the use of thatched rooftops was outlawed by virtue of their flammability. Instead, shingles made of wood (usually oak), stone slabs, or clay tiles were used as roofing materials. The usage of stone, except in fringe settlements (highlands in Scottish terriotry, for instance) were relegated to the rich. Especially brick. Brick was for rich people. Shaping stone was expensive and time-consuming, so the poor (the vast majority of the population) would maybe use field stones on a foundation, around windows, or on corners of their homes, assuming they used them at all.

The ones that still used thatch, either prior to the ruling, or outside of cities, would have homes that basically looked like straw lean-to's. Supports leaned together with a central beam on top (held by pegs) with cross-bars (also hed by pegs), were laced with uprights weaved throughout with horizontal reeds and overlain with thatch. The top of the building possessed a hole, called a louvre, that served as the chimney. Chimneys in poor homes were all but unheard of, the same as windows.

In game terms, these types of homes should be close to one another, but NOT linear. That 'city block' style was just not the way of things. Villages flowed along roads. In fact, twin lines of homes facing a center street, with maybe a manor house or two, a keep, or a church in the center, would roll along the road, and have lines of fields extending away from the village and behind the homes. Nearby, maybe a water or windmill would exist. It would belong to the church or the local lord. As a matter of placement and construction, this building would NOT ever be nightlighted, nor would it ever be near a fire or a building like the blacksmithy. The particulate nature of mill-ground materials in the air made the air within combustible. It was against the law to carry even a candle most times in the vicinity. You could make the building blow up.

The lotting should be done to take this non-linear design in mind, at least for low-density, non-urban settlements.

Maybe the density levels could be accurately scaled in regards to BAT construction? The low-density buildings would be for the ubitquitous villages and settlements, the medium for semi-urban ones, and the high-density for the extremely rare metropolises?

Take this scale, for instance.

Low-density: Villages, hamlets, thorps, etc. Non-linear, usually formed along minor routes of transportation. Heavily agricultural. The lots would be large, to house one or more homes, not arranged in a 'block' pattern, but scattered about, and containing the necessary side-buildings that the house of the poor contained (storage sheds, small barns where appropriate, pens for animals in some cases, common wells, feeding troughs, etc.). There should be small churches, maybe, if absolutely necessary, a keep, or a motte and bailey, but more often than not this is not needed.

Low crime rate, low flammability, low population, lots and lots of animals, extremely contained and small, maybe several villages within a half-mile, like dots on a paper

Medium-Density: Small cities and villages centered around a junction of travel or trade routes. The centerpiece for this settlement would most-liekly be the keep/bailey/small castle. The buildings would likely retain their scattered nature, somewhat, but streets would be planned inside city walls, and for a small area outside the walls from points of egress/entrance into the keep. Here, the buildings would approach rectilinear design and layout. For a large area around the settlement, agricultural subsistence would feed the city. This would necessitate a market or gathering area for commerce, and numerous storage facilities for grain. This is also the first type of city where dockyards and semi-urban industry would be common. We're talking about tanners, coopers, bakers, blacksmiths, etc. However, these would be smallish operations. They would likely have a monopoly.

Low to medium population. Medium Flammability. Low to high crime rate. Good mix of animals and people. Presence (likely) of manorial houses, with one being the local lord's. Semi-common along important routes and strategic locations.

High-Density: The closest equivalent to 'metropolises,' these cities would likely not number above 15,000 (especially in timmystwin's idea of medieval Britain). I mean, the door is open to Constantinople/Rome/Cordoba style settlements of 1,000,000+ inhabitants, but giant centres of inhabitance weren't quite common in western early to high medieval europe. The Byzantines, Italian City States, and the Islamic Countries had a monopoly on that. (Well, the Rus did too...). The buildings will be cramped, rectilinear as possible, and several businesses will be established for each trade, with competition being the norm. There will likely be enough of them to consider making guild houses, to attempt a restablishment of the monopoly possesed in smaller settlements. The castle may or may not be large, but the momentum of population basically keeps the population safe.

High population in high population density. High crime. High flammability. More people than animals, as local agricultural settlements ship food in for products shipped out. Guilds, castles (one or more), walls, chruches, docks (if on water), public works buildings (tombs/mausoleams/temples/etc.). Not common in frequency.

I could literally go on and on all day about this topic. But, I suggest, for serious contributors, to get a forum membership at any medieval history forum you can for more information. Wikipedia is just not going to cut it, haha. Hopefully, this thing can get rolling and not stop or get turned into SimWarcraft or SimFable. Should that happen, I would have to retire my aid.

[Timmystwin 201]

.......wow. Youve put a lot of thought into this. I thank you a lot for that, youve probably put more time into typing those posts than i have into BATting.

My line of thought was the overall look of fable, Although the look that Thingfish has achieved in his is brilliant, and is really the closest thing to it you could get. I was going for a bit more lunacy, as all my cities have that, but I think Thingfish's images are close to what i'm aiming for.

The medium settlements will look more tudor like, with one or two stories and the black wood on "white" and other lighter colours, whereas i might leave the door open for larger settlements by making them taller and wider, as hardly anyone makes real cities in SC4 so at least the option is open for people.

The lighter settlements i will base on farm life, with a lot of agricultural buildings. Medium industrial will be saved for large towns/ cities. (Brickmaker etc)

Guilds will be high density, as you wouldnt have a clockmakers guild in every village.

I was going to go along the lines of that plan, and if anyone doesn't like that then feel free to relot my files when they eventually get released ( september hopefully) but it is what i was going to go for.

Windows, well theres a issue. I was just going to make holes in the walls with a slightly yellow tinge to the light to represent skin and such, and chimneys are holes in the roof on my current models.

".....windmill would exist. It would belong to the church or the local lord. As a matter of placement and construction, this building would NOT ever be nightlighted, nor would it ever be near a fire or a building like the blacksmithy. The particulate nature of mill-ground materials in the air made the air within combustible. It was against the law to carry even a candle most times in the vicinity. You could make the building blow up."

I cannot help that /\ as they will be zoned buildings, so my only suggestion for that would be to delete it when it grows.

Im sure i saw mythbusters do an episode on that, and i do see your point.

And to answer your first piece of writing, the density will affect the materials the building is made of. Mostly wood and mud. High density, possibly stone. Castles and manors definately.

EDIT

What about sticks jammed into the windows as a security measure? It would make them a bit more interesting and i just found out that happened. Its a solution i suppose.

And here is a building im messing around with atm, however im now gonna go and fix my highways after a certain april fools blew them up i second after saving....>

I will mention that the walls will be grottier and will have rakes, weeds and such up them to break up the clean look.

[Crackdtoothgrin 0]

Additionally, here are some more guidelines for BAT/prop construction that should be taken into consideration.

Flora: There should be lots of farms. Like, lots of them. Depending on whether or not the two- or three-field system was in place, this should change seasonally. We've done it with trees, we can do it with crops. The same crop wouldn't stay on the same field all year. The fields left to go fallow should be covered in various weeds, grasses, flowers, etc. And, they should have ploppable livestock and people. The fallow fields served as the grazing ground for the livestock, and were often owned by the local lord. The vast majority of the land should be wilderness, and forested, depending on where the locale is. The clearing of trees was a highly regulated process. Messin' around in the nobility-owned forests was sometimes an offense punishable by death. Also, any building of military worth should NOT have ivy growing on it. Gardeners were paid to remove it, as sturdy ivy could be climber in times of war. That image of ivy growing up the castle walls is a nice effect in modern times, but would be reprehensible on a contemporary basis.

Fauna: The vast majority of the land should be forested or left wilderness, as mentioned. This means lots of wildlife. (Maybe even replace 'airplanes' with flocks of birds?) In the cities, there should be lots of livestock. Horses, cattle, pigs, ducks, rabbits, pigeons, etc. Everywhere. People used horses and cattle like cars-slash-labor machines. They used them for everything. Even if the people didn't own their own horses (being owned largely by the local lord) they still took care of them. This means the construction of stables, rabbit hutches, falconer coops, etc. The domestication of animals is one of the primary reasons for human ascendency. (In fact, the stirrup is considered the most-important military invention of human history.)

Professions (Just some of them... A lot are left out):

Bakers- The baker was very important for the community. His home would likely serve as his shop. It may or may not have included a detached kitchen. Unless he was under the direct employ of the local lord (and he likely was), he would likely be somewhat 'free' and better-off than his neighbors, since he could earn a higher wage-based living by offering his services in exchange for the materials provided to make his bread. This was a highly regulated industry, and one prone to corruption, being so central.

Apothecarist- The 'doctor' of the community. His home would include gardens for growing herbs, when he didn't procure them by gathering or purchasing them from traveling merchants. In smaller communities, this was likely done by a member/employee of the church/local lord. He would likely also be somewhat well-off in comparison to his agriculturally-toiling neighbors.

Blacksmith- I already covered this one in an above post, but this position would be one of the essentials of any community. He made almost anything and everything the community needed out of metal. Sub-categories could include the Armourer (makes armour), the Bowyer (makes bows), the Fletcher (sometimes this is separate from the bowyer, as they made arrows using feathers from birds and arrowheads from the blacksmith), and many others, including architects and engineers that may or may not have been separate from the blacksmith, and dependent upon the necessity by the community and the wealth/power/prestige of the community or employer(s).

Brewers- Also important to the community, highly. Taking barrels made by the coopers, they brewed and stored liquor and (more commonly) beer/ale for the community. Potable water is difficult to obtain near a settlement without contamination risks. Beer could last longer and provide nutrients/calories to flesh out meals. Liquor inside the brewers creations could also help with decontamination of contaminated food, make patients drunk for 'surgery' or emergency medicine, and help peasants forget about how crappy their lives were. Like today, alcohol was an important stress-reliver. Being so important, this practice was often highly taxed and regulated, even down to taxes levied per consumption. Beer was so important that the Battle of Sempach in 1386 saw the halting of the battle for everyone to get some beer during the melee.

Masons/Bricklayers- Stone, except fieldstone (removed from fields during cultivation and reappropriated for structural use), and bricks were the domain of the wealthy. Stone took a long time to shape, required knowledge of mathematics, extensive logisitical support to mine, transport, and construct with. Bricks required access to clay and large arrays of kilns, as well as large, open spaces to dry once shaped. In areas of desert (especially Levantine and Mesopotamian alluvial areas) bricks were more common. However, in Europe, where the ubiquitous procurement of clay was often inhibited by topsoil and more fertile ground (as opposed to open areas of alluvial sediments in Judea and the Tigris-Euphrates valleys), it was more expensive. the making of bricks also took the brickmakers out of circulation in agriculture, making their services more valuable on a wage-basis. Only after the pseudo-emancipation of serfs after the wage increase of post-1350 medieval economy (due to labor being more valuable after the effect of the Black Death) should they become more popular, except where ecclesiatical/noble money could fund them, such as in large cities.

Glassblowers- Glass, until the Venetians made Cristallo, was just not used for homes. That didn't mean that glass was not in use elsewhere. From decorative church art to goblets the practice was quite valuable. First, it required the obtaining of sand. Depending on geographic location, this coudl be expensive. Next, it required years of practice. Glassblowers were not common until the later stages of the medieval age, and even then, weren't in abundance until well into the Renaissance. Where they do exist, they should be rich, have a guild association, and shouldn't be in smaller communities.

Dyers- Dyers were quite common. Contrary to popular belief, the Middle Ages were quite colorful. The ability to make dyes was common, and often used to great effect in trade. For instance, the pairing of English dominance over the wool trade, coupled with the common and popular dutch dying business, ensured the financial success of both during the high middle ages. This profession was done largely by women. The creation of the dyes was a dangerous process sometimes, as the poisonous nature of the berries could easily lead to accidents. However, even in small towns, it was often commonplace to see a facility or facilities devoted to this practice.

Millers- Using water or wind, this highly regulated and vital business (usually owned by a local lord, wealthy famliy, or church) was among the most vital to the survival of any agricultural community. The grain harvested throughout the year had to be milled into flour to make bread for the baker, and so that it could turn stored grain in the winter into food during the lean months. Millers could often make great wealth for themselves, join guilds, and, in concert with grain merchants, procure huge 'neighbor deals' from less-agricultural urban centers to turn a profit. One point I mentioned in another post: The grinding of flour makes the air combustible. The presence of even a single spark could ignite the whole building and bring doom to a whole community. As such, non-sparking stone pieces were often used. The use of metal as part of the mechanism was next-to impossible to find, since the grinding of metal could cause said sparks to create an explosion. Blacksmiths, forges, etc. were not located anywhere near a mill. Most mills wren't even located too terriblly close to otehr buildings. Grain storage silos also had the problem of combustibility, and were not located near mills. The explosion of one or the other could blow both up. Experience had evolved the placement of these buildings to be somewhat distant.

Tanners/Leather-workers/Furriers- Leather was a valuable commodity. The nobility often had exclusive rights to the forests (although this didn't deter the Robin Hoods of the world to make their own living in the black market). The animals, after being used as food, would be recycled into armour and clothing with their skins. The trappers would bring the animals to the tanners/furriers. There, the animals would be skinned, coated in oils, and stretched outside in the sun, left to dry. Afterwards, in giant vats, a mixture of water and animal dung (and other elements dependent upon the local resources) would be created, and the dried skins would be softened in them. In smaller communities, this was often known adn participated in by everyone. Tanning was a well-known profession, although sometimes a tanner could set up his own business, either separate from or part of the leather-workers. After the leather was softened, the laterh-workers used tools form the blacksmith to shape it into clothing, belts, armour, etc. Sometimes, they would be shaped and boiled in oil (cuir boulis) to harden them for added protection. Whle the tanning was common and cometimes a community practice, the skills of the leather worker often necessitated a separate profession, like the blacksmith.

That's just a few of the many professions, from barristers/solicitors, to falconers, coopers, cobblers, weavers, etc.

It's a good idea to pick up a book on medieval life to see what would be necessary in BATting.

Take this for instance:

There are four types of coopers (barrel-makers), and each has a different kind of barrel. The barrels made as props should change to reflect what they carry, dependent on the business.

Originally posted by: Timmystwin

.......wow. Youve put a lot of thought into this. I thank you a lot for that, youve probably put more time into typing those posts than i have into BATting.

quote>

Maybe, I don't know. I type really fast. When I wrote my novel, I could do about 35 pages a day. The research, however, has taken me about seven years. I'm against historical revisionism, and consider the degradation of history in popular culture to be one of the greatest tragedies of mankind.

Originally posted by: Timmystwin

EDIT

What about sticks jammed into the windows as a security measure? It would make them a bit more interesting and i just found out that happened. Its a solution i suppose.quote>

For some buildings, yes. You could also have small glass panes on richer buildings, especially if you are going for a 'tudor' style approach. An important note: Buildings in bigger cities, with the bottom floors serving as storefronts, would have horizontal shutter on street-facing windows. The bottom part would serve as a counter, and the top part an awning. Just remember that when making a tradehouse/home. The time period you're aiming for would have a bit more glass. But, most importantly, like I mentioned, there would be no thatching in the cities. It was outlawed in 1221, but smaller villages would likely still have them. The most common thing would be oaken shingles, followed by stone slabs and ceramic tiles, respectively.