Home Schooling leads to emigration..

[DocRorlach 25]

Part of a recent discussion about a possible removal of Thomas Jefferson from some of Texas' school books was a lively debate about home-schooling.

Now it appears that my dear "fatherland" is taking a somewhat ferocious attitude towards it. According to this article, Germany (along with Sweden and Spain) made it unlawful to keep your kids out of the public education system: London Times, March 24th!

A German couple with four children went as far as emigrating to the USA in order to continue with what they believe to be the right approach to their kid's education. And while I would not necessarily agree with them, the actions of the German authorities seem somewhat reminiscent of a police state of old, to say it mildly.

The article, while citing the couple's religious bias, does point out that their beliefs were not the primary reason for the decision to keep the children out of school.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

In the other thread I posted by opinion that home-schooling is OK if it is closely regulated with regard to academic achievment.

Now, we come to Germany and some other European countries, who are acting like police states.  I suppose it is easier to enforce a single education system rather than have to monitor all children being home-schooled.  However, there are general infringements on parenthood, freedom in general and freedom of religion. 

When the state knows best, what if some unscrupulous demagogue were to get his hands on the reins of government?  The Germans are hardly the ones to do this considering their history less than one century in the past.  They still seem to have solid tool steel from ear to ear when it comes to this sort of thing.

[sneakeypete 16]

The term 'police state' is thrown around with abandon thesedays. However we experience nothing like the conditions that you might in a real police state.

That being said, a news network here tried to run a "ohh they dont want us to homeschool, evil gubberment" kind of story here. Except there wasn't really any government oppositon to the people homeschooling their kids: the gov was just getting up those who hadn't registered their kids for homeschooling.

[DocRorlach 25]

While I cannot comment on what goes on in the educational system of Germany today, I do owe my own eductation to that system, albeit a long time ago. Even so, it is the federal state which decides just how the federal education policy is implemented - not to the free-wheeling extend of the US - but to a large degree. From what I could learn from the times article and a lacsiadasic look into the matter re the laws involved, the police where within their rights (according to the book) to pick up the children and place them into a local school. Additionally the couple were fined several times (and indeed expected that), again, by local authorities.

To reiterate, I am no friend of home-schooling and do not condone what the couple did. It might be a different mattter if the children were too ill to attend a public school. But to feel compelled to emigrate because police and local authorities threaten to take the children away - and that is what happened and that does smack of police state - makes me think that the parents did the right thing. I have lived in both countries, and for all its other failings, the US impressed me as the country with more personal freedom when compared to most western European nations. We, the older, post-war generation were brought up on the maxime that if it is not expressively permitted, it must be against the law. This, is of course, an exaggeration, but I always found it to be one close enough to the truth to be uncomfortable.

As for the media's responses, we all know they tend to go overboard on nearly any story, something I did not find in the article in the Times.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Since, imho, education of the young is really an obligation of any civilized state that intends to remain civilized, registration of home-schooled children (equivalent to a license to home-school) is needed.  This is the only mechanism by which the state can identify those that need occasional monitoring to  ensure the educational goals.

On the other hand, insisting that there is only one way to educate children smacks of some kind of totalitarianism.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

I was always registered when I was home schooled, also had a few standardized tests through the the groups I attended. Homeschooling doesn't necessarily mean anarchistic education by crazy parents.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: SimHoTToDDy

Homeschooling doesn't necessarily mean anarchistic education by crazy parents.quote>

Not necessarily.  But what is there to stop it from being that?

[SC4BOY 20]

Home schooling is a response to government using schools to become "propaganda machines" (whether intentional or inadvertent) I would venture a guess that when schools decide to stick to academic content more centered on the "3 R's" as they used to say long ago, the "home school" movement would go away on it's own. Sadly governments and societal pressures tend to make schools the place where societies "stamp out little replicas of the ideal citizen", Many have come to dissagree with what it is to be an "ideal citizen" these days and that is the crux of the issue. The US at least once held a fairly widely accepted standard of what "an American" is. That standard is much in contention in the US today. The "federalization" of schools in the US (which has only taken place in the last roughly 30-50 years) have taken away any community standards leaving the average father/mother wondering if they have any control over what their children are being pressured to become. Schools used to be strictly locally controlled while in the US at least this is virtually completely eliminated now.  This has been exacerbated by the single-parent family and the lack of an at-home parent. Many areas now have compulsory kindergarten now as well.. we are nearing a cradle-to-graduation school system now.

I cannot speak to schools in other nations as I have neither attended nor had children attend schools there. I do know what happens in the US as I attended myself and sent 3 children "through the pipeline" (and am quite familiar with my parents' experiences as well).

[Jasoncw 11,839]

As far as totalitariansim and that kind of stuff goes, perhaps it's true that the government could have too much ability to indoctrinate children, using the education system as a propaganda tool.  But on the other hand, a not-insignificant number of parents choose to homeschool their kinds because of their extreme religious, social, political, etc. views, so home schooling can function in the same way.  You're choosing between a top down and a bottom up threat to the well being of the country.

Someone who would rather uproot their family to half way around the world than have their kids in a public system must have views that are extremely incompatible with mainstream thinking, and I think Germany might be better off without them.

[morriswalters 16]

Perhaps DocRorlach will tell me if I'm wrong, but I have always pictured German society as a more homogeneous than ours,  and one that places a premium on conformity.  If that is true than it would not be surprising that they may feel home schooling is inappropriate.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: SimHoTToDDy

Homeschooling doesn't necessarily mean anarchistic education by crazy parents.quote>

Not necessarily.  But what is there to stop it from being that?

quote>

Registration, standards, and follow up.  Expensive, but freedom, as we all know, is not free.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: SimHoTToDDy

Homeschooling doesn't necessarily mean anarchistic education by crazy parents.quote>

Not necessarily.  But what is there to stop it from being that?

quote>

Registration, standards, and follow up.  Expensive, but freedom, as we all know, is not free.

quote>

The question is what form does the "follow up" take?   I can tell you right now that having the parents fill out forms is not sufficient.  They can, and do, lie big time.

Short of surprise home inspections, I don't have an answer.  I find the idea of surprise home inspections to be rather offensive but they are the only thing that would have caught some of the abuses I'm familiar with.

[madhatter106 3,903]

I had a conversation with a co-worker, who said she was shocked when she learned that the homeschooled seven year old daughter of a family friend had never heard of the directional terms "right" or "left."

Never heard of them - not that she didn't know the difference between them, but that she never had heard of them.

This, however, was probably due to the fact that they were super fundie Mormons, and I'm sure their homeschooling had a heavy dose of scripture with any other education in second place. In fact, come to think of it, the only people I knew who were homeschooled when I was growing up were Jehovah's Witnesses; this would seem to reiterate jasoncw's point that propaganda can go the other way (ie. extreme religious propaganda versus anything the state could dish out).

[DocRorlach 25]

Originally posted by: morriswalters

Perhaps DocRorlach will tell me if I'm wrong, but I have always pictured German society as a more homogeneous than ours,  and one that places a premium on conformity.  If that is true than it would not be surprising that they may feel home schooling is inappropriate.

quote>

Actually, I cannot, simply because I have not lived in my country of birth & upbringing for the past 25-odd years. Back in those days, primary schools (Volksschule) still had religious instructions - I used to "switch" denominations, depending on who asked" just to get out of classes. Since the bulk of the educational system depended on the federal state you were in, school standards varied, even in a country that was then smaller than a lot of US states: the south was predominantly Catholic, the north more protestant.

When I went to the equivalent to High School, the first children of foreign workers started to appear; Turks, Greeks, what were then Yugoslavians, with the Turks establishing their majority early on. Their percentage representation still being high, I am sure that their presence as Muslims also influenced curriculum decisions.

Schooling of any sort was basically free, all the way up to university level, but admission to higher education was tempered early on by a requirement called Numerus Clausus: your exit exams at high school were tallied to and had to be rather excellent for the most desired university places (medicine, law, physics, engineering - where the money was).

Until recently I was not even aware of the law against home schooling; what I have known in the past, however, was an introvert society, suspicious of outsiders. I doubt that has changed, regardless of generation. And parents wishing to educate their own kids to the exclusion of state influence would certainly be considered outsiders. My twenty-five years in what was then West Germany left me with an impression of norm & form over content. Aberrations may be tolerated in the more liberal north, but are certainly discouraged in the south.

As for the couple's retreat to the US, I do not think, gauging from the article, that their views were particularly extreme. Continental European societies - not just the German, but also the French, Austrian, Spanish & Italians - are all quite heavy-handed when it comes to the use of law-enforcement in what should be strictly civil matters. And it is commonly accepted that tolerance and law enforcement do not mix.

[saltandsauce 0]

the German public school system is there to enforce "integration", that is; the practice of making everybody tolerate each other by the skin of their teeth. Strangely this implies that schools are centres for education second to "integration"

if the government wants "ideal citizens" then they should not instill ANY values in children, no "citizenship" no "Religious, Moral and Philosophical studies (RE to most people)" no discussion of the hot topics of the day wether it's secularism, Christianity, women's lib or gay rights. ALL of it (Christianity as well) should be kept OUT of school and then they can get off their fat buttocks and think of information to put on the cirriculum. the Scottish and English systems are so thin of material until Highers or A- levels. a lot of school drop outs drop out because they are bored because it's easy. I you sit in class bored out your skull and your brain isn't even occupied then of COURSE your going to drop out/disrupt the class. school seems to get worse as more material is removed from the cirriculum.

Scottish Engineering classes had things like working out piston diameter,crankshaft length, fuel usage/type, cooling and horsepower for appropriate tasks (effectively designing an engine) now it's got some token pneumatics and a little bit of electronics with mechanics left out entirely - toys to play with. i managed to get a 1 in Standard grade Chemistry and i did NOTHING in class. that is not good preperation for highers which actually have content in them.

[SC4BOY 20]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

As far as totalitariansim ... too much ability to indoctrinate children, using the education system as a propaganda tool.  But on the other hand, a not-insignificant number of parents choose to homeschool their kinds because of their extreme religious, social, political, etc. views, so home schooling can function in the same way.  You're choosing between a top down and a bottom up threat to the well being of the country.

Someone who would rather uproot their family to half way around the world than have their kids in a public system must have views that are extremely incompatible with mainstream thinking, and I think Germany might be better off without them.

quote>

You do not need totalitarianism to drive to "indoctrination".. only centralization.. currently the US school system is driven almost 100% by the NEA.

And frankly I'm STUNNED that you consider "bottom up" as a threat to a country's "well being".. show me any "bottom up" or "grass roots" system that could "subvert" any system.. other than insisting that that kind of "stamping out little citizens" is not to be tolerated. Exactly what about this set of individuals (or "extemely incompatible") folk do you find threatening? They certainly are not of a single mind, other than wishing their own and their children's own freedom to think for themselves.

 I find it amusing that the US wants to drive "diversification" and then see you labeling those that want to take their children out of public schools and their "indoctrination" to let kids become individuals. It is true that individuals will subvert "the state" but I seriously doubt they will "subvert the well being of a country".

And schools are certainly NOW a "propaganda tool". History is being rewritten as rapidly as possible. I don't fear the truth.. I have no problem seeing people as human beings. I have no problem as finding that no group of people possess "the truth". The curriculum of the schools contains subject matter that extends far beyond the teaching of fundamentals of learning.. instead it is to seek to promote a position.

In later levels of education, I am certainly in favor of providing an array of views and let thinking folk arrive at logical conclusions (btw, this means that if you're going to walk in those areas, you must be willing to accept that there is no "answer" but an array of equally logical views). However this is being presented to kindergarten children.. they are completely incapable of reasoning of this nature..  The human being's capacity of judgement is known to mature extremely late... possibly even into the early 20's.. to present, basically at the hands of untrained people, this kind of material at these early ages is totally wrong.  However those who wish to inculcate "a view" know that that is exactly the time to teach it, because the kids will adopt the "authority figure" view. If I'm going to accept an "authority view" of a subject I'd just as soon it be that of the family.

This btw is also my primary objection to public television. A significant part of their children's programming is aimed at just this kind of thinking. (also btw formulated largely at the hands of the same body, the NEA.. not that I view that as some "subversive" group, but they certainly have no lock on the "wisdom of learning" that would fit that kind of position of power) PBS children's programing started out teaching kids to "read and write and do elementary math"... but as soon as that was established, it instead began to see it's function as teaching "the right way to think" and by presenting their own view of an array of social issues. 

I have had the pleasure of associating off and on with a wide array of "home schooled" (this takes many forms btw including private schools, cooperatives, true "home" schooling, etc) children across a range of ages and certainly don't find them as some kind of "extreme" freaks. I find them typically to be thinking individuals with a range of views, generally able to defend and examine those views logically and thoughtfully. I have no idea how you come to your conclusions about that segment.

I'd love to hear your examples of "their extreme religious, social, political, etc. views," of which you speak.

Originally posted by: Meg

The question is what form does the "follow up" take?   I can tell you right now that having the parents fill out forms is not sufficient.  They can, and do, lie big time.

Short of surprise home inspections, I don't have an answer.  I find the idea of surprise home inspections to be rather offensive but they are the only thing that would have caught some of the abuses I'm familiar with.quote>

I have no idea of which you speak. If you can't measure the result via standardized testing, then you have no objectives. (this btw is the same way we assess those that are publicly schooled) Of those followup studies of "home schooled" children as they continue to mature and integrate into society, there certainly is no indication of any "perversion" (however you wish to define that) of society's standards, nor of any lack of success as citizens.

And "surprise home inspections" certainly aren't required to assess an education. Are you possibly confusing this with some kind of perceived "social services" function?

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Exactly what about this set of individuals (or "extemely incompatible") folk do you find threatening? They certainly are not of a single mind, other than wishing their own and their children's own freedom to think for themselves.quote>

there are some who think that  thinking for your self IS a bad idea.

[SC4BOY 20]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa
What people seem to disregard is the first R: Reading. This is "propaganda" without a doubt. ..Who decides what is appropriate?quote>

Reading, in the sense of what you've stated  here is NOT where the propaganda is executed.. is it possible? Yes. But it is rare that it occurs here. Why? Because the "reading lists" are still largely locally set (or even set by individual teachers) The exposure to an array of views is NOT the issue.

Home schooling is different. It is not easily monitored.quote>

And why do you believe it SHOULD be? I mean I can see the concern over educational "adequacy" but this is hardly a "monitoring" in the detail you're suggesting here. Do you believe there is only one path to education? Home schooling theoretically offers opportunity, but it is hardly a unified movement, but rather locally or even individually executed. How would you fear the parents' selection, yet be perfectly happy with someone else's selection?
 

It leads to children being indoctrinated into a particular mindset....... sow discord (whether direct or inadvertent)...quote>

 
And what "mindset" is this? and what "discord"? I'm interested in your perceived subversion here.

Education is propagandaquote>

It CAN be, but only if manipulated. The manipulation rarely occurs in the "reading selection", but rather in the guidelines, contracting, writing, and proofing of the textbooks. This is what now occurs at the national level. All of this used to occur locally.. Perhaps there was still "indoctrination" but it was then a spectrum of views guaranteed by the very diversity of the source. Centralization is the key to indoctrination. That has occurred in the educational resources in the US at least over the last 30-50 years. And the worst part of it is insidious, rather than obvious. How many  parents read their children's assigned reading? And sadly few teachers care enough to point out the fact that the textbook is only another point of view, not TRUTH, supporting that concept with clear examples of the issue.

I don't fear the individual teacher, as there are many checks from all directions on this, if no other than simple variety as the kids move through various teachers. And further it's rare the individual teacher that actually cares enough or puts out the energy to involve themselves to that degree. They usually "follow the curriculum" (perhaps sadly)

 ...have access to everything, whether it is acceptable to you world belief or not. Eventually, hopefully, people keep an open mind and question everything.quote>

Centralization almost guarantees that it will not happen from either direction, neither access nor questioning.

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes
there are some who think that thinking for your self IS a bad idea.quote>

Sadly true!

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Originally posted by: Meg

The question is what form does the "follow up" take?   I can tell you right now that having the parents fill out forms is not sufficient.  They can, and do, lie big time.

Short of surprise home inspections, I don't have an answer.  I find the idea of surprise home inspections to be rather offensive but they are the only thing that would have caught some of the abuses I'm familiar with.quote>

I have no idea of which you speak. quote>

I am speaking of physical abuse.   I am talking about kids who go for weeks without exposure to daylight.   I'm talking about kids who developed rickets from lack of adequate nutrition.

When parents say "oh, I'm homeschooling them" and then literally lock the kids away are the rest of us supposed to sit back and say that is okay?    and what hope do those kids have of rescue?

---

A less drastic problem are the kids who simply never learned how to behave in a group.  Most of us learn how to do that in kindergarten or first grade.   But many homeschooled kids are used to being the center of attention and have no idea how to function when they are not.   

Kids like that show up here from time to time.   I can recognize the pattern.  No, not all home schooled kids are like that but there is a certain behavior pattern that has consistently turned out to be from a home schooled kid whose emotional age lags several years behind his calendar age.

---

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Exactly what about this set of individuals (or "extemely incompatible") folk do you find threatening? They certainly are not of a single mind, other than wishing their own and their children's own freedom to think for themselves.quote>

there are some who think that  thinking for your self IS a bad idea.quote>

Agreed.  You seem to be saying that all parents who home school want their kids to think for themselves.  I can assure you that is not the case.  

Many parents home school because they do not want their kids to exposed to the real world.   These parents do their best to maintain an artificial bubble around the kids.  Their goal is not to educate the kids or teach the kids how to think for themselves.  Their goal is to teach the kids what to think and to give them a skewed view of reality.   It's sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la, la, la" while teaching their kids to approach life the same way.

[SC4BOY 20]

Originally posted by: Meg

I am speaking of physical abuse. I am talking about kids who go for weeks without exposure to daylight. I'm talking about kids who developed rickets from lack of adequate nutrition.quote>

As I expected, you are confusing schools with social services.. They are not the same thing. We have plenty (some would say too many) laws addressing that part of the equation.. not to mention probably 100's of thousands of local, state and national employees whose job is to address that issue.  Perhaps you are one of them.

And schools certainly have solved all our problems haven't they? Childhood obesity, virtual elimination of any large muscle activity, introduction of masses of sugar-loaded drinks and snacks in place of milk and basic foods, brigades of children on prescribed "psychoactive" drugs...  You speak of "not seeing the light of day"; certainly if it weren't for the trip to and from the school, kids would get none of that from public schools. 

Academic performance has deteriorated continuously and across the spectrum, both in absolute terms and as compared to other children worldwide. Scientific and math scores are at record lows, we spend gigantic amounts on a per pupil basis (it now is 2nd highest cost in the US gov't economy as I recall behind only the "entitlement programs" .. edit: checked the figures.. over $500 billion annually and over 4.5% of GDP according to the OCLC for fiscal 2003)

And the financial transfer of virtually every extracurricular activity to the added cost of any parent/child who wants to participate, whereas a few decades ago it would have been heresy to suggest that those "extracurriculars" are not foundation stones to basic education, not "extra cost add-ons"

 

When parents say "oh, I'm homeschooling them" and then literally lock the kids away are the rest of us supposed to sit back and say that is okay?    and what hope do those kids have of rescue?quote>

The same hope of anyone in an abusive situation.. but confusing that with home schooling is misguided at best.

A less drastic problem are the kids who simply never learned how to behave in a group.  Most of us learn how to do that in kindergarten or first grade.   But many homeschooled kids are used to being the center of attention and have no idea how to function when they are not.   

Kids like that show up here from time to time.   I can recognize the pattern.  No, not all home schooled kids are like that but there is a certain behavior pattern that has consistently turned out to be from a home schooled kid whose emotional age lags several years behind his calendar age.quote>

I suppose you're suggesting that all of those attending public schools are "properly adjusted" and that we don't have socialization issues in the public schools? This is another case of confusing apples and oranges. On balance, and I have made some effort to do so, I find no correlation of home schooling to "social maladjustments"

Agreed. You seem to be saying that all parents who home school want their kids to think for themselves. I can assure you that is not the case.

Many parents home school because they do not want their kids to exposed to the real world.   These parents do their best to maintain an artificial bubble around the kids.  Their goal is not to educate the kids or teach the kids how to think for themselves.  Their goal is to teach the kids what to think and to give them a skewed view of reality.   It's sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la, la, la" while teaching their kids to approach life the same way.quote>

Well first I would say that I absolutely dissagree that this is even a significant, much less a dominate motivation for home schooling. As I stated before, I've interacted with literally 100's of non-traditionally schooled children and find no statistical difference between them by the time they reach roughly 12-15 years old (if at all). 

Further I find that todays' public school children have a lot of difficulty dealing with themselves. They must be immersed in some kind of social setting every minute, whether its on the cellphone. or texting hundreds of minutes a week, in class,  at home on computers in "social networking" situations, etc. Having time to be comfortable with themselves, and to know themselves is rare. To be alone for extended time terrifies them. 

And my observations of college kids (products of these same public schools) certainly are no better (and in some ways significantly less so) than 40 years ago.. examples are in the suicide rates of today's kids. Virtually unheard of 40 years ago. Rampant school bullying and violence and racial tensions, etc etc.

Second, I am saying nothing of the sort. You may be inferring that. What I am saying is that they are not correlated. If you can show me significant data to the contrary, you may sway me. I find social maladjustments across the spectrum of society.. not isolated (or even elevated) to home schooling. You seem to want to substitute the public schools for social services. They are seperate entities with different charges.

Perhaps we should simply put all babies into institutions soon after birth and return them to society upon graduation? In many respects we are nearing that now. Virtually every household has both spouses working (if indeed there even are 2!), and have kids in nurseries, day care and kindergarten practically from birth, pressures across the nation to go to "all year" schools. Do we believe this makes for a "better world"? Would that solve "social maladjustments"? Would we cease to have prisons? It certainly would simplify many of our "society problems" wouldn't it?

I'm sorry but "home schooling" as the perpetrator of (or even the cover for) evil in society just doesn't work for me. Can it be abused? I'm sure it can.  But I can certainly see why some people might migrate to the US or similar for that freedom. Don't know that I would, but I'm not in their shoes, so can't really judge.

I can say that for those who do opt for homeschooling, they usually feel very strongly about it.. as they must because it is a MAJOR commitment both financial and personal, not to mention having to fight the kind of social stigma such as you are trying to put on them.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Originally posted by: Meg

The question is what form does the "follow up" take?   I can tell you right now that having the parents fill out forms is not sufficient.  They can, and do, lie big time.

Short of surprise home inspections, I don't have an answer.  I find the idea of surprise home inspections to be rather offensive but they are the only thing that would have caught some of the abuses I'm familiar with.quote>

I have no idea of which you speak. quote>

I am speaking of physical abuse.   I am talking about kids who go for weeks without exposure to daylight.   I'm talking about kids who developed rickets from lack of adequate nutrition.

When parents say "oh, I'm homeschooling them" and then literally lock the kids away are the rest of us supposed to sit back and say that is okay?    and what hope do those kids have of rescue?

---

A less drastic problem are the kids who simply never learned how to behave in a group.  Most of us learn how to do that in kindergarten or first grade.   But many homeschooled kids are used to being the center of attention and have no idea how to function when they are not.   

Kids like that show up here from time to time.   I can recognize the pattern.  No, not all home schooled kids are like that but there is a certain behavior pattern that has consistently turned out to be from a home schooled kid whose emotional age lags several years behind his calendar age.

---

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

Exactly what about this set of individuals (or "extemely incompatible") folk do you find threatening? They certainly are not of a single mind, other than wishing their own and their children's own freedom to think for themselves.quote>

there are some who think that  thinking for your self IS a bad idea.quote>

Agreed.  You seem to be saying that all parents who home school want their kids to think for themselves.  I can assure you that is not the case.  

Many parents home school because they do not want their kids to exposed to the real world.   These parents do their best to maintain an artificial bubble around the kids.  Their goal is not to educate the kids or teach the kids how to think for themselves.  Their goal is to teach the kids what to think and to give them a skewed view of reality.   It's sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la, la, la" while teaching their kids to approach life the same way.  quote>

I suppose we have different ideas as to what "Home Schooling" means.

taking the literal discription one would assume its the parent directly educateing their own child.

im sure that is not the case in reality, in reality its the branch dividian type of place or that other group in texas all those kids were pulled from, were its more of a like minded group hireing/apointing a teacher  to teach all the kids in the group.but isnt that a sort of traditional school?

I would think the one on one educational style would be be more liberal or open in their educations. but mabey not.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

As I expected, you are confusing schools with social services.. They are not the same thing. We have plenty (some would say too many) laws addressing that part of the equation.. not to mention probably 100's of thousands of local, state and national employees whose job is to address that issue.   quote>

I am not confusing them at all.  We may have laws to address "that part of the equation" but they do no good when the kids are literally hidden from view.   While it may not be the cause, homeschooling does enable nutjob parents to be nutjobs.

And schools certainly have solved all our problems haven't they? quote>

oh, they have major problems, no doubt about that.  It is no secret that the American educational system is a mess.

You speak of "not seeing the light of day"; certainly if it weren't for the trip to and from the school, kids would get none of that from public schools. quote>

But at least they got to see daylight while making the trip.   Which is more than some home schooled kids can say.

When parents say "oh, I'm homeschooling them" and then literally lock the kids away are the rest of us supposed to sit back and say that is okay?    and what hope do those kids have of rescue?quote>

The same hope of anyone in an abusive situation.. but confusing that with home schooling is misguided at best.  quote>

Home schooling can be a convenient excuse to mask an abusive situation.

I suppose you're suggesting that all of those attending public schools are "properly adjusted" and that we don't have socialization issues in the public schools? quote>

No.  I don't recall saying anything about them one way or another.

On balance, and I have made some effort to do so, I find no correlation of home schooling to "social maladjustments" quote>

Then you and I have different experiences.

Agreed. You seem to be saying that all parents who home school want their kids to think for themselves. I can assure you that is not the case.

Many parents home school because they do not want their kids to exposed to the real world.   These parents do their best to maintain an artificial bubble around the kids.  Their goal is not to educate the kids or teach the kids how to think for themselves.  Their goal is to teach the kids what to think and to give them a skewed view of reality.   It's sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la, la, la" while teaching their kids to approach life the same way.quote>

Well first I would say that I absolutely dissagree that this is even a significant, much less a dominate motivation for home schooling. quote>

Again, you and I have different experiences.  From what I have seen, it's a major motivation.

Further I find that todays' public school children have a lot of difficulty dealing with themselves. They must be immersed in some kind of social setting every minute, whether its on the cellphone. or texting hundreds of minutes a week, in class,  at home on computers in "social networking" situations, etc. Having time to be comfortable with themselves, and to know themselves is rare. To be alone for extended time terrifies them. quote>

I do know kids like that but, in my experience, they are the exception.

And my observations of college kids (products of these same public schools) certainly are no better (and in some ways significantly less so) than 40 years ago.. examples are in the suicide rates of today's kids. Virtually unheard of 40 years ago. quote>

40 years ago, college kids were "tuning in, turning on, and dropping out".   Why commit suicide when you could get into "sex, drugs, and rock & roll" instead?

Rampant school bullying and violence and racial tensions, etc etc. quote>

Are you saying college was calmer 40 years ago?  

We are a few weeks short of the 40th anniversary of when

happened on a college campus.

What I am saying is that they are not correlated. quote>

As Duke is fond of saying, correlation does not mean causation.

You seem to want to substitute the public schools for social services. They are seperate entities with different charges. quote>

No, I do not.  I think it would be best if the school actually taught instead of babysitting.   I'm just looking for some way (and I'm not claiming to have the answer here) for there to be some form of checks and balances to hold the parents of home schooled children accountable.  Much of the time they aren't even required to know the subjects they are teaching, which can put the kids at a considerable disadvantage.   and they are free to abuse the kids at will.

I'm sorry but "home schooling" as the perpetrator of (or even the cover for) evil in society just doesn't work for me. quote>

Apparently you don't know the string of nutjobs that I've run into.

[Duke87 1,070]

Meh. I'd agree that an outright ban on homeschooling is ridiculous, but I don't live in Germany, so that policy is really none of my business.

That said, the family ought to be permitted to stay here. No harm appears to be getting done, and their rights are at stake. Sending them home would, I daresay, be unamerican.

As for homeschooling in general, I don't doubt that it's often mishandled and sometimes downright abusive... but, I'm going to have to agree with the sentiment that there's no need for any special body to regulate it or anything like that. If actual child abuse is taking place, DCS should be capable of handling it. And if they're not, we need a better DCS.

Otherwise... eh, let it be. Parents can teach their kids what and how they want.

As for monitoring things, I'd say a good neighbor would tip off the appropriate authorities if they noticed anything suspect. Puting a dedicated regulatory body to the task is just a waste of money.

Oh, and Meg? It's "correlation does not imply causation". Not "mean".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

People seem to be foregetting what the plaque on the Statue of Liberty has to say.

What about truth in advertising?

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

People seem to be foregetting what the plaque on the Statue of Liberty has to say.quote>

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

the wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these the homeless, tempest, tossed to me

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

What about truth in advertising?quote>

It's an interesting poem that tends to be interpreted in a falsely romantic fashion. That last bit (the famous part) is essentially satire on the fact that people who are well-to-do have no reason to leave their country, and thus it's a bunch of working class poor people coming here.

Note in particular how immigrants are referred to as "wretched refuse", and how it is called for them to be "tossed" here.

[SC4BOY 20]

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

And schools certainly have solved all our problems haven't they? quote>

...oh, they have major problems, no doubt about that.  It is no secret that the American educational system is a mess.

...No.  I don't recall saying anything about them one way or another.

...Then you and I have different experiences.

...Again, you and I have different experiences. 

...I do know kids like that but, in my experience, they are the exception.

...As Duke is fond of saying, correlation does not mean causation.

...Apparently you don't know the string of nutjobs that I've run into.quote>

What I see here is a long string of cases of perfect willingness to accept the disgusting state of public schools today, yet your complete unwillingness to see a spectrum in home schooling (really non-public.. it covers a wide range of "keeping my kids out of there" kinds of behaviors.. not just "at home") and to see why a family would be loath to send their own children into that situation.

...(and I'm not claiming to have the answer here) for there to be some form of checks and balances ...quote>

I don't think anyone has an issue with the principle here, though we may disagree on the degree of intrusion appropriate. And using the fact that someone is home schooling certainly doesn't wave their rights to search and seisure nor privacy nor presumption of innocence. If there are cases suggesting abuse, get a court order (just like the police would have to do in any other criminal behavior) and do what they need to do.

...Are you saying college was calmer 40 years ago?   [kent state reference]

...We are a few weeks short of the 40th anniversary of when

happened on a college campus.

quote>

I absolutely am claiming that. Its sad you drag out the Kent St affair (a situation quite isolated and essentially singular.. and, lest we forget the historical context, a case where there were issues on both sides even though some like to look back on this like this was a one-sided event) while I'm referring to widespread issues of problems being built into our current culture.

And though I can understand your stated experiences and concerns with your perceived abuses, we still haven't addressed the other part of my central thesis (and indeed a thesis stated in the first post) that history is being rewritten in a way many americans find unpatriotic and unacceptable. That movement started out perfectly harmlessly, though I believe not altruistically. Its pretense was to tell "the whole truth", but in fact it's being completely rewritten totally ignoring both sides of the story.  This is just as grievous as the "wrong" that they were trying to "right".

The foundation (or at least "legitimization" of this was Howard Zinn's popular "politically correct American history" as espoused in  "A People's History of the United States"... the "blessed by academia" beginnings of the "hate america" movement).  Perhaps you have no problem with that, or even agree with it, but there are other viewpoints.

And sorry I don't equate drugs (overwhelmingly "soft" drugs), sex and rock and roll to the current state which still has all those elements.. Really most of those behaviors that were "outrageous" in that day are routine parts of life today. And when I was stating 30-50 years ago my focus was pre-1965 basically (exposing my age here, but basically my school years and refering to my parents schooling which was almost 50 years prior to that.. hehe).. but have no problems with your examples. I won't bother listing a long set of examples of the other side, as your memory is likely better than mine.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: SC4BOY

What I see here is a long string of cases of perfect willingness to accept the disgusting state of public schools today, quote>

   Where did I say that?  I believe that an overhaul of the education system is long overdue.

yet your complete unwillingness to see a spectrum in home schooling  quote>

I have discussed the spectrum that I have seen.  I could imagine things about that which I have not seen but what would be the purpose in that?  

(The only positive home schooling situation I have seen was in the tv show "Promised Land".  But fictional characters are not relevant here.)

(really non-public.. it covers a wide range of "keeping my kids out of there" kinds of behaviors.. not just "at home") quote>

ah.   That is a different issue.   Private schools and home schooling are two different things.

I don't think anyone has an issue with the principle here, though we may disagree on the degree of intrusion appropriate. And using the fact that someone is home schooling certainly doesn't wave their rights to search and seisure nor privacy nor presumption of innocence. If there are cases suggesting abuse, get a court order (just like the police would have to do in any other criminal behavior) and do what they need to do. quote>

That is where we are.  and it is not sufficient to deal with known abuse cases.   As I said, I do not have the answer here. 

...Are you saying college was calmer 40 years ago? quote>

I absolutely am claiming that. quote>

Based on what?  

Its sad you drag out the Kent St affair (a situation quite isolated and essentially singular.. quote>

  It may have been the only place where students actually got shot by the National Guard but it was hardly the only place where there were violent protests and a National Guard presence.  Let's not pretend it was a singular, isolated case.  It was just the only case where the trigger was pulled.   All other elements were present in many other places during that time.

and, lest we forget the historical context, a case where there were issues on both sides even though some like to look back on this like this was a one-sided event) quote>

well, yeah.   Any clash that massive and violent is going to have issues on both sides.   If everyone agreed, stuff like that wouldn't have happened.

while I'm referring to widespread issues of problems being built into our current culture.quote>

There are indeed widespread issues.  No question about that.

And though I can understand your stated experiences and concerns with your perceived abuses, we still haven't addressed the other part of my central thesis (and indeed a thesis stated in the first post) that history is being rewritten in a way many americans find unpatriotic and unacceptable. quote>

I agree that history is being rewritten in a way many americans find unpatriotic and unacceptable, like how Texas wants to demote Thomas Jefferson.  Your first post in this thread does mention some things that I'm not following.  For instance:

Schools used to be strictly locally controlled while in the US at least this is virtually completely eliminated now. quote>

"virtually completely eliminated"?    Where?  Since when?  I don't know what's happening where you live but my local school board still has lots of control and has some pretty good ideas.

That movement started out perfectly harmlessly, though I believe not altruistically. Its pretense was to tell "the whole truth", but in fact it's being completely rewritten totally ignoring both sides of the story.  This is just as grievous as the "wrong" that they were trying to "right".quote>

um . . . which first post are we talking about?   I missed something somewhere.  Which "movement" is this?

The foundation (or at least "legitimization" of this was Howard Zinn's popular "politically correct American history" as espoused in  "A People's History of the United States"... the "blessed by academia" beginnings of the "hate america" movement).  Perhaps you have no problem with that, or even agree with it, but there are other viewpoints.quote>

The "hate america" movement?   Since I missed something here, could you back up and go over this again?

And when I was stating 30-50 years ago my focus was pre-1965 basically (exposing my age here, but basically my school years and refering to my parents schooling which was almost 50 years prior to that.. hehe).. but have no problems with your examples. I won't bother listing a long set of examples of the other side, as your memory is likely better than mine. quote>

ah.  pre-1965 is lot different than the late 60s and early 70s.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Of course, home schooling finishes at the end of the Secondary curriculum.  After that, any student should seek admission to the universities of his choice, wherever situated.  If home schooling results in a person who is unfit to take this step, then the state has failed in its duty of care with respect to ensuring the education was in accordance with generally accepted principles.

True shaping of the individual takes place in the post-Secondary scene.  There is always the School of Hard Knox (the workplace), but somethng more gentle is what we all hope for our children.  Universities, besides the usual student release from parental supervision, provide an entry into the great dialogue.  Some schools also provide entry into the great game (see Kim, by R. Kipling).

Some students are willing to accept the blinders of engineering, where everything is done by the rules, but many enter other fields that are not so restrictive.  Some opt for pure sciences where the sky is the limit of the mechanical, and others become thinkers where there is no limit.

All should be prepared to cross the threshhold.

[Jasoncw 11,839]

And frankly I'm STUNNED that you consider "bottom up" as a threat to a country's "well being".. show me any "bottom up" or "grass roots" system that could "subvert" any system.quote>

Most terrorist organizations are bottom up.  Grass roots is just a way things can develop, it doesn't mean what's developing is good or bad.  Top down can also be either good or bad.  The KKK was a grassroots group, Nazi Germany is a top down group, and the Neo Nazis are another grass roots group.  You're assuming that top down and bottom up have value judgements, which they don't.

But now that I think about it more, while the general movement towards homeschooling might be thought of as bottom up, the actual homeschooling environment itself is top down.  Literally the only things that the kids know about are what their parents teach them or allow them to be taught.

I find it amusing that the US wants to drive "diversification" and then see you labeling those that want to take their children out of public schools and their "indoctrination" to let kids become individuals. It is true that individuals will subvert "the state" but I seriously doubt they will "subvert the well being of a country".quote>

Individuality does not have a value attached to it as well.  There are a lot of people who are very ordinary and mainstream who are great people, and there are individualistic people like Hitler who aren't, and vice versa.

The benefit to a public school system is that the kids are in an environment where there are a lot of other kids with a lot of different viewpoints.  At the very least these kids are aware that these other viewpoints exist, and at most they have the opportunity to have their own viewpoints through their own experiences, different than their parents (and this is the fear that motivates many parents' decision to homeschool). 

And schools are certainly NOW a "propaganda tool". History is being rewritten as rapidly as possible. I don't fear the truth.. I have no problem seeing people as human beings. I have no problem as finding that no group of people possess "the truth". The curriculum of the schools contains subject matter that extends far beyond the teaching of fundamentals of learning.. instead it is to seek to promote a position.quote>

Everything has a position and this is unescapable.  You can't read books because all books are written in a time and place and literary movement with various philosophies and ideas attached.  You can't analyze them for the same reason.  History is even more problematic.  Most history is at least factually accurate, but all histories have their slant, and that's the nature of the beast.  Even science has a position, considering the popularity of creationism.

It's true that schools do have a social component, and in public school it tends to be liberal biased.  When I was in elementary school every time there was some kind of holiday or event (and there are a lot of them) we'd do some kind of activity, for MLK day, various multicultural conducive holidays, arbor day, etc.  Of course I think that it's pretty agreeable to teach kids that lynching blacks is bad and planting trees is good, but there's a significant number of people who think that non-whites are subhuman and that environmentalism is a liberal conspiracy to gain control, so I'm sure those parents were quite disgruntled with the public education system.

I have had the pleasure of associating off and on with a wide array of "home schooled" (this takes many forms btw including private schools, cooperatives, true "home" schooling, etc) children across a range of ages and certainly don't find them as some kind of "extreme" freaks. I find them typically to be thinking individuals with a range of views, generally able to defend and examine those views logically and thoughtfully. I have no idea how you come to your conclusions about that segment.quote>

So have I, and among the wide array of home schooled kids I've found a wide array results.

Home schooling is a response to government using schools to become "propaganda machines" (whether intentional or inadvertent) I would venture a guess that when schools decide to stick to academic content more centered on the "3 R's" as they used to say long ago, the "home school" movement would go away on it's own. Sadly governments and societal pressures tend to make schools the place where societies "stamp out little replicas of the ideal citizen", Many have come to disagree with what it is to be an "ideal citizen" these days and that is the crux of the issue. The US at least once held a fairly widely accepted standard of what "an American" is. That standard is much in contention in the US today.quote>

The three Rs from back then are equivalent to graduating elementary school today, and that's all that mattered because after you finished high school you were just going to go work at the factory anyway.  The schools made you functionally literate, and taught you good enough math to balance a checkbook.  Those things are very agreeable and there would be a lot less homeschooling, but nowadays our citizens need to be more educated.

The "ideal citizen" is a huge issue today.  Back then ("the good old days" right?) the ideal citizen was a white Christian.  Women were housewives and men earned paychecks.  Girls weren't allowed to wear pants at school.  Then came black people, and then came women's rights, and then came this and that.  We haven't even finished with black people and now there are mexicans and indians and gays, and non-christians.  Now there's the economy and healthcare and things, so the role of government becomes more of an issue.  I agree that the ideal citizen is the crux of the issue.  But being a liberal, my solution is a public, diverse, and inclusive mainstream social/intellectual life.  For many (not all) homeschoolers, it's a private, non-diverse, exclusive, non-mainstream social/intellectual life.  Even liberal homeschoolers are denying their kids the opportunity to interact with a lot of other people and views.

Edit:

I should add that I don't think that homeschooling is a threat to national stability (unless it was happening at a large scale, which it's not), or that homeschooling should be banned, but I'm also not outraged about Germany's decision.