Light Rail Systems in South Florida

[dman10257 2]

Like many places throughout the United States, local cities and states want to jump start their transportation with the help of President Obama. Other countries, in Europe and Asia, are a bit more advanced when it comes to transportation, but the governments want to change that.

 

In Fort Lauderdale, a new Light Rail project, called The Wave, is due to start with planning in 2 months. The Wave will be in Downtown Fort Lauderdale, and will be very advanced, modern, eco-friendly, and efficient. The project, however, needs a boost from the US Government. Besides the money given by the city, the project would still need help from the government, to reach 37.5 million. Already, the Broward County Transportation Department has upgraded their buses, and now this. The projects has many ups too. It would create many jobs, and many permanant positions, which would really help Fort Lauderdales local economy. Plus, it would attract residents and business to the area, along with connecting the surrounding area with downtown. The project is supposed to finish in  the summer of 2013.

In Miami, the city already has four major transportation systems. Bus, the Metromover (like a monorail) , the Metrorail (elevated rail), and Tri-Rail (train running through Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade county). Along with the new baseball stadium, Miami is pushing for a new Light Rail system. The system, like Ft. Lauderdales, would help out congestion in downtown, and surrounding areas including overtown, Miami's ghetto that officials are trying to sort out by building newer, and more wealthier buildings in the area. Also, like Ft. Lauderdales, Miami's will be advanced, eco-friendly, and modern, and should attract more residents and also jump start the local economy.

As for now, Florida has many projects, like many other states throughout the nation, and hopefully, with all these new projects,  we see a new America this year.

Here are some pictures of the plans:

Fort Lauderdale-

Miami-

Edited Thread Title and Summary - Let's keep them short, folks. - Barb

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

How will these systems be powered?

[dman10257 2]

They will probably be powered by overhead wires- I will add some pictures.

[hmm 17]

Are both of these systems going to share the right ot way with or remove vehicular traffic? I heard that Houston motorists often get into accidents with light rail cars on segments that share the right of way with automobiles. Also the light rail system in Buffalo practicaly killed retail on its Main Street by removing street traffic all together, creating a pedestrian mall that cuts through downtown and its theatre district.

[dman10257 2]

Well, as the plan shows, the system will most likly share the road, however I guess thats what the city governments will discuss in their 1 year of planning. And yes, I have also heard about Houstons bad Light Rail accidents, in fact, some people refer to it as the "Bam Wam Train". To your Buffalo comment, the Miami and Ft. Lauderdale downtowns are really based on tourism, so I doubt it will kill retail, also the trams are just supposed to connect key spots, like museums, and theatres in a 3 mile radius, so their is not many shops to cut through....

[piccboi824 1]

As a Miami resident and having to been downtown numerous times and in the area that the proposed streetcar would run, I can tell you that Downtown isn't a major touris destination and retail isn't all that big either. South Beach is the real retail and tourist destination.

[Larks2242 251]

Originally posted by: piccboi824

 I can tell you that Downtown isn't a major touris destination and retail isn't all that big either. South Beach is the real retail and tourist destination.quote>

Defiantly Collins Ave is the most attractive area for visitors.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

How will these systems be powered?

quote>

Alligator powered.

[Larks2242 251]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

How will these systems be powered?

quote>

Alligator powered.

quote>

Jeez, Florida has Electricity you know

[Jamonbread 222]

Construction of these lightrail projects really kill retail and cause massive traffic problems in the construction stage... St Clair in Toronto has been a mess for ages, unless the rail is really needed to free up congestion and isnt just something for the city to show off or as a poster to their green effort that in reality doesnt help, then I would be against it even though I think light rail is awesome. Florida is also just to sprawled to really have a useful mass transit system... I can see Miami sorta, but I dont think the Fort Lauderdale one would be that great. i know it has some high buildings but you have to remember people are coming from outside the core.

[hamsterTK 93]

There are ways of mitigating the impact of construction, by building segments of the line in phases.

Also I don't believe Ft. Lauderdale's sprawling nature really matters, the point of this system seems to be as a downtown circulator.

[mimoys1 2]

I live in miami and i think metrorail should go to the stadium

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: Larks2242

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

How will these systems be powered?

quote>

Alligator powered.

quote>

Jeez, Florida has Electricity you know quote>

And how will this additional electricity be generated?  Did anyone do an Environmental Impact Study?  It is not at all clear that this kind of blatant power consumption will be useful in the long run.

As for sharing the road, I lived in Toronto for many years and it has an effective downtown light rail system powered by overhead electric wires.  The streetcards have water-filled bumpers on the front.  However, since these conveyances operate in the center of the streets, there are problems boarding and discharging passengers on busy financial center streets.  Where the width of the existing street permits, passenger islands with pedestrian stop-lights have been retrofitted.  The affectionately named red rocket has been in use in Toronto for as long as I can remember.  I think at one point it was horse-drawn.  This kind of transit system has to grow up with the city.  Just sticking it in a place that is unaccustoomed to it will undoubtedly lead to serious "growing pains".  I really think subway or elevated rail is a better solution in spide of the added costs.

[Larks2242 251]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Originally posted by: Larks2242

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

How will these systems be powered?

quote>

Alligator powered.

quote>

Jeez, Florida has Electricity you know quote>

And how will this additional electricity be generated? 

quote>

What about Turkey Point or Florida Power & Light?

[dman10257 2]

Ok, I'll go up the list...

Yes Florida Power and Light (FP&L) will most likely power them... I don't know what will make them energy efficient, but I can't wait to see in 3 years...

Going to N_O_BODY, Light Rail is basically the last option in Miami and basically all of Florida since in Florida, there is so much water under the ground, which doesn't allow for the construction for subways...

Mimoys1- I don't know if they'll build it to the new stadium, but I know they're extending it to MIA, (Miami International Airport)

HamsterTK- Yes, that is exactly the point, in Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami.

Jamonbread- The Ft. Lauderdale is also a big... And yes, you are right that people go there from all over... In fact did you know Ft. Lauderdale is part of the Miami Metropolitan Area, or South Florida Metropolitan Area, that encorperates 1116 square miles, and contains about 5 million according to the 2000 census- so all of SF is built up, basically.. But people in Fort Lauderdale are there for business, rich people along the beach, and some tourists.

piccboi824- Lastly, I agree with you, and don't. In the proposed area, the tram will run through from Downtown, to the Design District, which is a big retail area...I agree with you,however, that it does run through some city areas, like overtown, no tourist in their right mind will go there. In Downtown, it's really just to ease the heavy congestion there, so it's sort of a half and half.

.

[Easy Bakes 253]

I never thought about the fact there are places you cant build subways.Even if they could pump the water out, the sinkholes will swallow everything up after you remove the water that supports them.

New Orleans comes to mind as well as Miami.

[dman10257 2]

Yes, I'm sure if they could, Miami would have a subway. If you've ever dug a hole at the beach, what happens in the hole would happen to the tunnels used to put the subway tubes... (The water would rush in, and as Easy Bakes said, the ground would keep crumbling and swallow everything up...)

[fukuda 351]

You can perfectly build subways near the beach. You don't have to pump the water out of the ground when boring the hole, you have to completely freeze the ground around the tunnel. When that tunnel section is up and running and completely waterproof you can stop freezing the ground around it. That's how they did it over here to build the tunnels and stations near the sea.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: fukuda

You can perfectly build subways near the beach. You don't have to pump the water out of the ground when boring the hole, you have to completely freeze the ground around the tunnel. When that tunnel section is up and running and completely waterproof you can stop freezing the ground around it. That's how they did it over here to build the tunnels and stations near the sea.quote>

Were is here?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: soccerderek

Going to N_O_BODY, Light Rail is basically the last option in Miami and basically all of Florida since in Florida, there is so much water under the ground, which doesn't allow for the construction for subways...

.quote>

Tell that to the sandhogs in New York.  It is perfectly feasible to build a subway right through the water table.  The Romans solved this problem over 2000 years ago.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Originally posted by: soccerderek

Going to N_O_BODY, Light Rail is basically the last option in Miami and basically all of Florida since in Florida, there is so much water under the ground, which doesn't allow for the construction for subways...

.quote>

Tell that to the sandhogs in New York.  It is perfectly feasible to build a subway right through the water table.  The Romans solved this problem over 2000 years ago.

quote>

The ground conditions New York and Miami are very different. Manhattan has a lot of shallow bedrock, and the soil in the area tends to be fairly heavy on fine-grained clays and silts. Miami does not have shallow bedrock, and the soil near the ocean in Florida tends to be fairly sandy.

Why does this make a difference? Well, it's called permeability. Pure sand is about ten million times as permeable as pure clay (yes, you read that right). So, when digging in a sandy soil, you have a much greater challenge on your hand in terms of dewatering than when digging in a clayey soil.

Ground freezing is one effective option for dealing with things (there are others), but it's expensive. Digging a tunnel below the water table through sand, while not impossible, would not be worth the cost.

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: fukuda

You can perfectly build subways near the beach. You don't have to pump the water out of the ground when boring the hole, you have to completely freeze the ground around the tunnel. When that tunnel section is up and running and completely waterproof you can stop freezing the ground around it. That's how they did it over here to build the tunnels and stations near the sea.quote>

Were is here?

quote>

Barcelona, Spain. The ground is so sandy that they had to freeze it in order to bore all the lines next to the sea. Though it's quite expensive as Duke stated.

Public transportation is very important for the city so it was a high-priority project, this is probably different in an american city though.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

@duke87:  Ever hear of underwater setting concrete?  If you use tufa in the mix, you get a concrete that will set anywhere.  Sand, clay, water, it doesn't matter.  Might have to truck the tufa in, but there is lots around Mt. St. Helens and Hawaii abounds with it.  Or, closer and deliverable by water, try southern Europe.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

@duke87:  Ever hear of underwater setting concrete?  If you use tufa in the mix, you get a concrete that will set anywhere.  Sand, clay, water, it doesn't matter.  Might have to truck the tufa in, but there is lots around Mt. St. Helens and Hawaii abounds with it.  Or, closer and deliverable by water, try southern Europe.

quote>

Setting concrete underwater doesn't solve the problem of having to work with everything else, including people, down there. It doesn't hold anything in place until it sets, which requires formwork. You also need to remove the soil to dig the tunnel.

Wetsetting concrete is great for things like bridge piers, where you can dredge a suitible base, plop a form in the water, and pour concrete in it (well, there can be more steps, but that's the basic idea). Tunneling? Not so much.

That said, there is a similar concept which could be used: grouting. You can pump chemicals into the soil that essentially turn it into a weak concrete, allowing you to dig through it and/or build on it without worrying about the ground being too weak, and without having water infiltration become a huge problem. Might actually be necessary anyway if the soil can't support the tunnel.

Still expensive, though. So, of course they're going to build rail on the surface rather than go into the huge hassle of digging tunnels. I agree with you that elevated would be better (also avoids all those tunneling problems!), I'm not a fan of streetcars at all, but that has NIMBY issues that light rail doesn't, unfortunately. People don't like shadowed streets.

[hamsterTK 93]

Fort Lauderdale already has the only real tunnel in Florida, the Kinney Tunnel which goes under a river/estuary used by lots of big fancy yachts. Also I think they approved(or at least proposed) a road tunnel to the Port of Miami beneath downtown.

It's irrelevant and nothing like a subway under soft saturated ground but just thought I'd point that out. Also I'm not sure why anyone is debating a subway for downtown Miami, which has not one but two elevated rail systems, the Metrorail and Metromover which pretty much goes all over the place.

Miami Beach on the other hand should have a transit line.

[BoxCarRacer 1]

I don't really think Miami needs a subway. Subways work better in walkable cities, just because its easier to access everything. For example, the New York subway is nice because you can spend a day in Manhattan and walk around midtown/central park, hop on the subway down to the financial district, walk around there, hop back on the subway, and hit times square.

You can't do that in Miami, the destinations are so spread out, it would make much more sense to just drive somewhere. The only way it would work is if you had a million stops everywhere, which would add to an already crazy cost for building a subway through swampland. Light rail is a good choice though because its much cheaper than trying to build a subway on land like miami's, and its much easier to install stations so you can put them everywhere. Should cut down on driving too, because if you live in the suburbs [like what, 99% of Miami? ] you can just drive to a hub and get on the light rail and take it everywhere.

It should also help with tourists and crowds for big events like super bowl, i'm sure Miami hosts a ton of huge events every year.

[dman10257 2]

Yea I think they are doing work all over the port of Miami

[dman10257 2]

Oh yes, the new info I was, or am going to add talks about the light rail possibly going to Miami Beach.  Plus, I just read an article about Miami not having a subway and this is what I found:

1. Too much money

2. Miami has to still make use, and extend its MetroRail and MetroMover...

3. Some say its not the water, but the thick Limestone under the ground, that would prevent the digging of tunnels.