alj's Bat Thread

[alj 38]

Hello everybody,

Welcome to my Bat thread. I am going to show my models here and will finetune them with your help.

Let´s start with my first building; nothing extravagant, just a simple W2W 1 tile wide residential with a pretty generic Euro look.

Front                                                                        Back                                                      Left wall

Haven´t done nightlights yet.

Please let me know what you think.

EDIT:

Rendered the building and placed in on a test lot in order to check its proportions in-game.

Looks OK to me.

EDIT:

Fixed (decreased) saturation of roof and facade texture.

[Delecto 941]

Hey looks good,

the proportions seem right, but the entry could be a little higher. My advise is to...

-add some gradient to the roof and wall textures and some little dirty touch.

DEL!

[SimFox 801]

it is a good start. The scale looks good

As for the colors/textures... they are (particularly roof and base) are still way over-saturated and way to dark as such are not too reactive to light. For instance day view doesn't pick any "sun" it looks way too gloomy.

You shouldn't preview over the black background it doesn't give any accurate idea of brightness levels. And you should ALWAYS stay away from saturation levels of above 80%

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Scale looks good, I agree.

As for textures/colours/materials, SimFox' advice can generally be trusted, so no need for me to say anything more.

Two things I'd like to mention:

1) The rain gutters and downpipes (Dachrinnen + Fallrohr) look a tad too massive and heavy. I think it's sufficient to hint at these details with very fine lines - see odd's "Bunte Kuh" corner building for reference.

2) The front wall looks rather plain the way it is... I wonder if the house would look better if you modeled the staircase area out a bit more. An alternative would be to add details to a texture you apply to the entire wall. Likewise, the windows could be used to make the front look a bit more lively - I think odd_from_sweden's and StephenHH's BATs are a good reference in this respect. Are there any window frames in the front windows, by the way? If so, they are invisible... that could be another point to check.

All in all, that's a really good start here - I'm looking forward to seeing more!

[mightygoose 92]

agree with everything said by these two already, but you have a great start here.

[alj 38]

Thank you very much for your interest and advice.

Front door dangerous for tall people:
I will increase its height from 3m to 3.5m. Hope it works.

The roof glowing: 
I'll add some gradient and desaturate another bit. The latest shot has a saturation level of 85% (in Paint.Net, that is; or would I rather change saturation in gmax, if that's possible at all?). Part of the problem was caused by the settings of my laptop at home were I had put together this building. I was aware that textures were oversaturated, but I didn´t find out how off it was until I looked at the first pictures of this thread on my PC at work.

Preview background too dark:
How can I change from black background to another colour?

Rainpipes offensive:
They are exaggerated, indeed. I thought I'd follow the rule "make small objects larger if you want them to be seen in zoom 4" or so. I just now measured and and found out that the width of the rain gutter is 0.7 mtrs. Scary. It was one of the few objects of this model were I eyeballed size instead of figuring out in advance on paper what the parameters should be. The downpipe, however, has a width of 0.4 m which is not soo off, in my opinion (taking the small objects bonus into account, unless it's complete rubbish anyway). The rain gutter draws too much attention to itself as it is now, probably because it is, apart from its size, too bright.

Stair case area too plain:
I wanted the glass blocks to be flush (bündig) with the front wall like I have seen it on buildings in real life. I will try and move the glass some 0.20 m to the back and see if it adds some value to the front.

Window frames invisible: 
They are there, but obivously too small. Maybe a brighter texture could help here. Will try that.

Bottom line is: I find it encouraging that you took the time to look and offer advice. Thanks and stay tuned.

alj

 

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Ah, so these are supposed to be glass bricks? Yeah, now that's a detail that's hard to display at such a tiny scale. Setting them back slightly might indeed help to avoid the "painted cardboard box" look. By the way, I have also seen buildings where such glass blocks were surrounded by a slightly protruding frame, which was often painted in a different colour. That would be another option.

Exaggerating things is perfectly legitimate - it's the right amount of exaggeration that can be tricky to find out. As for the downpipe, it is probably several pixels wide, so you could choose a texture that's dark along the edges and bright in the middle. This would make the downpipe appear more subtle and emphasize its round shape .

Concerning the window frames, they probably only suffer from the low contrast between window glass and frame. As you say, a brighter (or at least more contrasting) texture might help, and/or scaling them up slightly.

[SimFox 801]

you can set the background color by typing following into MaxScript listener window - the pink area at the bottom left:

backgroundColor = (color 128 128 128)

and pressing enter. Those numbers are RGB (Red Green Blue) values and will give you neutral gray background. You could also go with a darker version - say 64 64 64.

As far as rest other things hat had been commented go... Modeling things with GMAX is a bit tricky. Particularly given the fact that your preview will NOT show you the rue picture you'll see in the game. The discrepancy is particularly bad with small elements. Problem is that Preview in GMAX BAT is anti-aliased, while your export (even on highest setting) will not be.

[alj 38]

Thanks for your help. Here's some progress.

I have addressed a couple of the issues that have been pointed out: door height, position of stairway windows (front centre), saturation, size of gutters and downpipes. I have faked some ray tracing on the roof and I have smeared dirt onto the front wall. So much dirt that I just have downgraded my little baby from R$$ to R$.

What do you think?

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

I love it

The only thing I see is that the saturation on the roof (specifically the darker end) needs to be turned down (used the sponge tool in gimp/photoshop). Also, the white frames and the glass on the top three windows would look better if it was consistent with the bottom windows. The top/ roof still looks R$$, but the bottom is a lovely R$, that contrast takes away from the appearance I think.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Try making all of the textures brighter and less saturated.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Wow, what an improvement!

As for suggestions, I second what Todd and Jason said. In addition to this, I'd like to direct your attention to another detail - if you look at the dormers, they somehow look unattached. I guess that's due to two reasons: (1) The shingles are suddenly brighter than those on the main roof, where the dormers end, and (2) gmax simply makes things appear this way; it is also very common with roof junk on flat rooftops. One way to avoid this is by darkening the outlines of any elements that are attached to a roof - in your case, it would mean darkening the main roof texture around the dormers slightly in order to make the different parts look more seamlessly attached to each other.

The bottom part, however, looks absolutely perfect. I dig the glass bricks, and I think you hit the typical look of such common buildings spot on!

[alj 38]

Thank you! Glad, you like it.

On the front roof I have played with dirt and desatured a bit. I have also desatured the front wall another bit. Am not sure about the result. It sucked too much color out of it for my taste. Those type of buildings not always look completely bloodless in real life. (I know real life is hardly relevant, what matters is that it fits into the SC4 scheme.)

The problem with the frames on the dormers is fixed now. There are actually two frames. One is the window frame and the second is part of the dormer's structure. The contrast was too low which led to the appearence of one giant frame to which SimHoTToDDy was referring.

I then darkened the roof of the dormers. Originally I had something in mind with the brighter roof tiles on them. They face the sun in a different angle then the surrounding roof. Therefore, I thought, they should stick out somewhat. But I couldn't get that done in a convincing way obiously. Partly because that bright/dark contrast made the area where the roof of the dormers met the main roof looked disconnected.

Next I repeated my dirty excercise with GIMP on the back front.

 

[T Wrecks 10,209]

I agree with you on the desaturation part... the last bit may have been too much. I know that muddy, dirty brown you are going for - after all, I see plenty of those buildings around here.  Maybe an in-game shot (it could be a photoshopped image) with both versions would help to decide which version is better.

As for the dormers, you did a great job on making them look attached to the building. However, I understand your wish to make them stand out a tad more. What you coudl do is try to apply a small gradient to them so they become slightly brighter towards the front edge. This way, the part that rises highest above the main roof will stand out most. Well, at least in theory.  Anyway, I think it's worth a shot if you feel like it.

The back wall looks convincing IMO. This is a place that would allow for some more individualization - a satellite dish here and there, or a flag of the local soccer club in the window... stuff like that, you know. But I suppose you're not at that stage yet.

One thing I'm not sure about is the door. It appears to be too black, and besides it looks like it stands in front of the wall, when in fact it should be slightly recessed. All that may be an illusion due to the harsh contrast there, but either way I think it needs to be addressed.

Btw, I love those "Rotznasen" under the window sills!

[gottago 24]

Hi alj, great to see the BATting you mentioned. I like the model a lot--you should do a bunch of color variations, as this sort of building is everywhere in German cities.

It still looks too dark, mostly due to the roof--the gradient looks too strong and I'd lighten the darker end and preserve the lighter as is. Also the base of the front facade and the window frames are reading black and should be lightened as well.

The grime on the back roof doesn't look convincing, but rather like random dark spots you applied with the paintbrush tool. Look at some RL examples in Google Earth or Virtual Earth and you'll see that grime will collect and streak in certain ways, and with tiles it will collect beneath rows and below and around objects such as the chimney and dormers (as you did on the back roof) and that often it is whitish as well as dark, and it's always good to apply grime using different brownish and grey tones to get more variation and realism.

[alj 38]

Thanks T Wrecks and gottago. And Kölle Alaaf.

I have added some back wall junk. No satellite dish, though. The landlord doesn't permit it. And if anyone ever guesses

for which sports club the banner is for ... well, there will be a reward.

I have also redone the dirt on the back roof.

Originally posted by: gottago

[T]hat grime will collect and streak in certain ways, and with tiles it will collect beneath rows [...].quote>

gottago, my friend, no need to become sadistic

The back door is brighter now, too. But it's still made of wood, coated and darkened over many years when it was exposed to the sun. Y'know?

The roofs of the dormers had some gradient applied to them. The base is brighter now.

Lastly, an in-game test. The version on the right has a front wall that I tried to make darker again (and increased contrast). I hadn't saved the front wall before I had made it brighter. Stupid me. I think I'll settle with the left version.

[gottago 24]

lol! When it comes to textures, it's true, I have no mercy!

The model blends in really well in-game but is still looking too dark overall in comparison to its neighbors. The roof especially. I guess your texture is meant to depict glazed terracotta tiles, which are pretty dark in color, but they'd also pick up a lot of light and reflections because of the high glaze. Either desaturating and lightening the texture you have or trying something closer to the texture on the roof of the Ananas Haus, but a step or two darker, would certainly be worth trying out.

[alj 38]

Desaturated and lightened the roof.

And what's more: There is a light that never goes out

Comments are appreciated.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Well, the night shot doesn't reveal too much about the roof, but the night lights sure look great - just as if you could peek into the rooms. You half expect to see someone stepping towards the desk, putting down a mug of coffee, and taking a seat.

 

[alj 38]

Here's a first shot of my second BAT. Same category as the first BAT, with a few variations.

Some dirt has been splashed against the front wall but this one won't be nearly as grimy as the first W2W building.

Yeah, I'm not convinced about the roof windows either. The dark blue frame is modeled although it looks painted to me. The outer grey frame is supposed to be the mounting of the roof window onto the roof itself. The *glamorous* reflection is produced in GIMP.

I have added an ad / direction sign onto the right wall. Adds a bit colour to that side as long as the neighbour lot is not developped.

Please let me know what you think.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

It's looking good so far. I think the skylights are a good idea, I'd just make the glass darker and they should look better.

You'll need to modify the ad in GIMP to make it fit in the game better. Try reducing the contrast in the ad, and desaturating it a little.

[alj 38]

Thanks, Jason. I have done the modifications you recommended regarding the skylights and the ad.

I have also worked on the back wall today.

Comments are welcome.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

idk, I think I'd do the same changes again except more so. I think the skylight would look best if it was about as dark as the rest of the windows. I think the sign is still feels out of place, but that might just be how those kinds of signs are (they might never blend naturally). The side wall could probably be less purple.

The facade is very simple and cheerful looking.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

One quick remark about the facade: I think you should somehow outline the bay (the protruding section), because the yellow-coloured parts on the left half of the building and on the bay bleed into each other. The uniform colour totally hides the geometry there. The problem doesn't exist on the right side because you see the shaded side wall of the bay there, and of course the shadow of the bay on the right front wall. All this is not the case on the left side. In fact, that's a very common problem to be found on many BATs - it's probably related to the limitations of gmax. 

[alj 38]

Thanks JasonCW, thanks T Wrecks.

I have worked on the ad, the side wall, the skylights. The fact that you had to point me to the same area twice, Jason, doesn't mean that I refused to get it right. I just seem to be cautious to not overdo a modification in order to not jump from one extreme to another.

What T Wrecks referred to, the appearence that the bay's left side merges visually with the front wall, I tried to fix by making the bay front texture a tad darker and adding subtle outlines. It isn't really a solution that has much to do with RL (why would the bay have a different tone than the rest of the facade?) but I think it helps in this situation.

Added some lighting, using the templates I had created for my previous building.

Looks as if I could finish and upload this one before the end of the weekend.

Edit: Whoa! 40th post! I shall make a post in the Milestones thread.