Trees dont eat pollution

[Sainty 0]

I've been reading on forums about the pollution in the game, and listening to the discussion on the chat ingame. Your knowledge about the environment is way below average which is weird since pollution and environment is like the first thing you learn in the kindergarden. 

 

I know that we all come from different parts of the world so Americans are excused, but you if come from Europe: shame on you!

 

Parks or trees do now lower the pollution in the city. Trees do not eat och suck up pollution that comes out from the car. What you are probably thinking of is CO2, and thats a gas that contributes to global warming... high above our cities. CO2 doesnt kill you if you are outdoor, CO2 isnt really dangerous to the animal kingdom.

 

Real pollution that effects our cities, kills both us and other living things... like trees. Yes, trees are living things, and yes, pollution kills trees.

 

When you are walking around a big city, its not CO2 that is eating away your brain, its probably nitrogen dioxide, most common chemical compound that comes out of the industry and cars.

 

There are different serious chemicals that are counted as polluters, but there are also heavy metals. This things do not go away. They fall in the grass and in the water, they got sucked up by animals and vegetables, we drink milk, eat meat and vegetables and drink the water. Since we are at the top of the food chain, we get cancer and other crap and we die. When we die the chemicals and heavy metals return to the nature and the process repeat it selves.

 

The only thing that stops adding more pollution in a city sis if you kill the source it self: the factory, the car, the power plant etc.

I think that Cites XL should be some what educational and maybe post information about how pollution and environment works rather than just hand out links to Ford. I hope they take their responsibility and dont go SC4 with the parks and adding the illution that trees suck up the local pollution that are produced in the cities.

[Edited Thread Title]
-Simtrop Mod

[Kryptowhite 9]

Yea, except the way this game is made, Trees DO eat up pollution, so it doesn't matter what happens in RL...besides, nobody said that the simcity pollution is...it could be CO2 NO2 or people who use the word retard in their thread titles!

[krbe 193]

Don't be such a retard, Mr Reagan. First of all; we do not lower the bar (of knowledge), just because a person should happen to be American.

Secondly, you are correct that trees major benefit is their ability to trap CO₂, even though some of them might release other chemical compounds into the air. However, you fail to realise that trees also bring numerous other benefits. Ashes, dust, pollen, and other particles are also caught by trees. They also contribute to lower temperatures, and thus helps lower energy consumption (for lower floors).

You have posted this in the CXL forum, where this lesson is worthless, given the constraints are the game, and not the real world.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Imagine how miserable it would be to live in a city with no vegetation? You are always better off with them then without, and that has to translate into game play some how... Besides, as krbe pointed out, they clean up other things then car emissions.

And thanks for pointing out that I am just an uneducated American.

[Sainty 0]

Im sorry, wasnt my meaning to "lower the bar (of knowledge), just because a person should happen to be American", its just that I'm not familiar with their educational system so I dont know at what age they are introduced to the schooling about the subject. Kids from Europe shuld know the life cycle of heavy metals before they even can read or write.

Im not saying that parks arent needed in a city, they are. But they have no effect on the emissions of a factory or a car. Greenery give envoronmental satisfaction to citizens in many ways, but they dont suck up the pollution created from the industry. Parks for citizens, yes. Parks for pollution, no.

[Cthuulhu 0]

2 of the 10 most polluted cities on Earth are in Europe...

Model your industrial cities off of what you see in South America, Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe and Siberia. There is a reason there isn't huge elite classes, for the most part, in these places, and that when they are in those regions there is usually some natural boundary like a mountain chain, a body of water or a good amount of distance between them and the pollutants.

I wish my country were going to Copenhagen this year with more than a slack jaw and a blank face though :-(

[morriswalters 16]

If you want parks, then be patient.  If you want to mitigate pollution be smart.  MC has set this up on purpose, they might modify it but they won't get rid of it.  The idea is to make choices.

1.   Pollution gets worse the bigger the sources get, it doubles at every level.  Stage 1 HI .02, Stage 2 .04, Stage 3 .08.  That number is for the stackable version which is city wide the local version acts the same way.  And it is true with some variations for all dirty industries.  Manufacturing is a 100 times cleaner than heavy industry.  Agriculture gets a free pass.  Elites are evil.

2.   Understand the true costs of those things you need.  Power plants use fuel.  This is a hidden cost.  You know they do it but you'll have to dig to find out how much.  They also employ people, which drives demand ever higher.  Ten windmills provide as much power as a small power plant, use no fuel, and employ no one.  Very cheap in comparison to the small power plant and competitive with stage 2.  Oddly only three things in the game use fuel.  Power, Heavy Industry, and the population.  You can do nothing about your people but you can control your fuel use.  Fuel is evil.

3.   People, gotta love em.  But not in this game.  They are grubby, needy, unappreciative little gits.  They don't erect statues to you.  All they do is whine more, more, more!  Did your mother ever tell you to leave the table a little hungry.  Treat your people that way,give them just enough, even if they don't think so.  People in this game grow like bacteria, and you can't avoid it.  But keep them just happy enough.  You'll have to figure out what that means, but here are some tips.  A little unemployment is a good thing a lot is not.  Love them blue prints?  Well your people people will show up at the unemployment office the whole time there in contract to it.  People hurt you two ways, they consume everything, fuel, holidays, what have you.  And they want Doctors, Police,  well you get it.  

4.   Freebies, well what can I say?  Every industries got them.  A wise player uses them for fun and profit.  But they are the purest thing in the game.  No pollution and no demand for any resources except money and people.

5.  Last but not least, pick your maps wisely.  The Three Valleys Map is a sweet map, good resources, well located.  Perfect for a midsize city.  The Wetlands Map is an easy map, with three star ag and plenty of water.  The only SP map I would consider taking above a million.

[mentarman 14]

By my understanding, CXL is doing this right. Parks don't eat pollution. They do (or will? Can't remember if this was a to-be-fixed thing) have a positive effect that might counteract negative effects of pollution, though. So it doesn't get rid of something in the negative column, but it adds something in the positive column that people will weigh when deciding where to live and how happy they are.

[Androv 6]

That's how it should be

(thinking of trees OM NOM NOMing on pollution now...)

[SimBurger 0]

The problem here isn't the debate on whether Trees eat pollution or not

Sainty is right that they don't.

MC is right when they establish that parks do nothing but improve morale despite pollution.

All of the above is correct.

The only incorrect thing I see here, is that the game implies that all life is being choked to death by the pollution.

Actually it doesn't imply it. It straight out says it.

In real life, even in heavily polluted cities, you don't walk around coughing and dying.

In real life, even in heavily polluted cities, "high tech" buildings don't suffer from lack of productivity because of "Air Pollution".

In this game they do.

As far as I know, the problem therefore is the accuracy of pollution's effect on the city.

Maybe I am wrong. But my High Tech buildings shouldn't be sitting at 50% productivity because of air pollution.

Pollution just isn't that prevalent in my opinion.

-SB-

[Ocram's Razr 963]

In the SimCity games, high-tech was negatively affected by pollution. Let us imagine that part of the overly-inflated pollution levels are carbon dioxide (which makes sense). Let us say that all sources of pollution have carbon monoxide converting catalysts. That would mean that at least a small amount of the pollution should be absorbed by trees and green areas. Furthermore, real-life plazas have a huge effect on land value and in-game plazas should counteract the negative environmental score caused by pollution for a relatively low price.

[pete1061 0]

True, trees don't eat pollution.

But... nice, green parks make citizens feel better about the environment.

Currently, there is only one item that appears to have a positive effect on the 'environment' overlay, the avatar park.

I've proposed that the wooded park have a similar effect.

Something else I brought up in another thread is that manufacturing shouldn't create much air pollution, that it actually crates more noise pollution than anything. And maybe to illustrate the negative impact on ground waters, heavy industry and manufacturing could cut away from water resource nearby.

Maybe there could be a new unlockable "environmental institute" that helps significantly reduce citywide pollution.

Or maybe when cities get really big, a (costly 100k or more to maintain) CO2 scrubber utility building under the waste treatment category.

I know such technology is being researched in many places.

Also, I haven't noticed, but sections of heavily trafficked road should add significantly to air pollution.

Having lived in Los Angeles, I would see obvious brown clouds of smog directly over the freeways there.

Though honestly, this is a game, I'm kinda tired of having all this 'green agenda' stuff shoved down my throat everywhere I turn.

I play this game to relax and take a break from the real world. The fact that there is currently so much pollution generated in the game, and so much is adversely effected by it feels as if MC unconsciously embedded the ever present "green agenda" into the game mechanics.

[morriswalters 16]

This discussion has been going on since the beta.  I have a challange.  Let's ask MC for a contest.  Take one map, say The Three Valleys map, set up as many of these maps  on any planet as is needed and have a one month, take it to the limit contest.  Winners in two categories.   Largest, and Best Overall.  Have the community vote for Best Overall.  The map has a good balance of resources and High difficulty.  Rules, well whatever the organizers decide.  But I would say minimal terraforming, no Mega structures, just trading and what's in the standard game.  What say you?

[Sainty 0]

Originally posted by: pete1061Something else I brought up in another thread is that manufacturing shouldn't create much air pollution, that it actually crates more noise pollution than anything.quote>

That is not really true. Manufactuing is production in which raw materials are transformed into finished goods on a large scale. Its everyting from chemical industry, biotechnology, food processing, industrial design, metalworking, metalcasting, plastics, textile manufactuing to tire manufacturing.

 

Most businesses in the manufacturing business are very heavy polluters.

[pete1061 0]

Originally posted by: Sainty

Originally posted by: pete1061Something else I brought up in another thread is that manufacturing shouldn't create much air pollution, that it actually crates more noise pollution than anything.quote>

That is not really true. Manufactuing is production in which raw materials are transformed into finished goods on a large scale. Its everyting from chemical industry, biotechnology, food processing, industrial design, metalworking, metalcasting, plastics, textile manufactuing to tire manufacturing.

 

Most businesses in the manufacturing business are very heavy polluters.

quote>

Couldn't those actually be considered heavy industry?

whats the distinction between the two? where do you draw the line?... it's a rather blurry one.

Even high tech creates various levels of environmental hazards that need to be considered.

They use some nasty chemicals to make chips & electronics.

Chemical refineries, metal casting, tire manufacturing would be heavy industry in my book.

Food processing, metal working don't really produce air pollution.

Biotech...(which would be in the high tech industry category) is a whole new breed of environmental hazard itself.

I'd consider the distinction to be the level of pollution.

To me big smokestacks are the giveaway for heavy industry.

Manufacturing facilities create hard material waste and seep toxins into the ground.

[Jack_Hawksmoor 0]

Originally posted by: morriswalters

This discussion has been going on since the beta.  I have a challange.  Let's ask MC for a contest.  Take one map, say The Three Valleys map, set up as many of these maps  on any planet as is needed and have a one month, take it to the limit contest.  Winners in two categories.   Largest, and Best Overall.  Have the community vote for Best Overall.  The map has a good balance of resources and High difficulty.  Rules, well whatever the organizers decide.  But I would say minimal terraforming, no Mega structures, just trading and what's in the standard game.  What say you?

quote>

Sounds good to me Morris. As long as they edit the in-game music to be a constant loop of

;P

[Sainty 0]

Originally posted by: pete1061

Originally posted by: Sainty

Originally posted by: pete1061Something else I brought up in another thread is that manufacturing shouldn't create much air pollution, that it actually crates more noise pollution than anything.quote>

That is not really true. Manufactuing is production in which raw materials are transformed into finished goods on a large scale. Its everyting from chemical industry, biotechnology, food processing, industrial design, metalworking, metalcasting, plastics, textile manufactuing to tire manufacturing.

 

Most businesses in the manufacturing business are very heavy polluters.

quote>

Couldn't those actually be considered heavy industry?

whats the distinction between the two? where do you draw the line?... it's a rather blurry one.quote>

No its not blurry line, the difference is pretty clear since every country has a law about heavy industry which lead to a definition of that industry.

Heavy industry is considered as industry that produces big things in one area which also gives heavy pollution localy (around the industry complex) and globaly. Its not really about what they do, but how much they pollute, thats whats classifies them as heavy industry. Such industry is often mines, car making factories, chemical plants, refineries, construction of enormous equipment etc.

[EAGCE 2]

Bottom line is pollution in this game goes too far.  A few blocks of industry pollutes the entire map.  That's ridiculous.  If 1/3rd or even 1/4th of my map was covered I'd understand.  But when about 1/10th or less of my map has it and its affecting my other industries, that's too far.

[bluetooth 0]

Originally posted by: pete1061

True, trees don't eat pollution.

But... nice, green parks make citizens feel better about the environment.

Currently, there is only one item that appears to have a positive effect on the 'environment' overlay, the avatar park.

I've proposed that the wooded park have a similar effect.

Something else I brought up in another thread is that manufacturing shouldn't create much air pollution, that it actually crates more noise pollution than anything. And maybe to illustrate the negative impact on ground waters, heavy industry and manufacturing could cut away from water resource nearby.

Maybe there could be a new unlockable "environmental institute" that helps significantly reduce citywide pollution.

Or maybe when cities get really big, a (costly 100k or more to maintain) CO2 scrubber utility building under the waste treatment category.

I know such technology is being researched in many places.

Also, I haven't noticed, but sections of heavily trafficked road should add significantly to air pollution.

Having lived in Los Angeles, I would see obvious brown clouds of smog directly over the freeways there.

Though honestly, this is a game, I'm kinda tired of having all this 'green agenda' stuff shoved down my throat everywhere I turn.

I play this game to relax and take a break from the real world. The fact that there is currently so much pollution generated in the game, and so much is adversely effected by it feels as if MC unconsciously embedded the ever present "green agenda" into the game mechanics.

quote>

Hear, hear.

[morriswalters 16]

You should be glad the this is only a game,  check out this link. 

www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php

That's how bad it can get.  Most heavy dirty industry is gone from the industrialized nations.  A lot of it's in China, witness the air quality problems at the Olympics.

[Sainty 0]

Originally posted by: morriswalters

You should be glad the this is only a game,  check out this link. 

www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php

That's how bad it can get.  Most heavy dirty industry is gone from the industrialized nations.  A lot of it's in China, witness the air quality problems at the Olympics.

quote>

I was in Katowice, Poland 10-15 years ago. That is (or was) the most polluted city in Europe. Their tap water was black. Not brown, not gray. Black.

[soltangris 42]

Look Sainty, I don't know the scientific details of wether or not trees reduce polution, and what part of real polution is CO2 and what part is other stuff.

I do live however in one of the biggest and most polluted cities in the world - Sao Paulo, Brasil. I can tell you how does it feel to live here:

On a sunny, relatively windless day the air humidity can drop bellow 20%. The cause is essentially polution, and essentially cars and trucks (there are millions of them here). They like to show the city viewed horizontally from, let's say, 100 meters of altitude, and you can really see the smog, it's a dark area that dims the sky.

On such days everyone starts complaining of headdaches, alergies and such stuff. You simply can't breath normally.

On a rainy day it's much better - the humidity is normal, and as a result everyone feels better.

Also, the minute you enter a big park, (no matter if it's sunny or raining), you literally can feel the difference - you immediately start breathing easier! Your general physical condition also improves, you feel more energy. You stop cauphing, or sneezing, or itching. And that's in the city, the polution is still around, all the heavy metals are still around.

You draw your conclusions.

Now, you're quite  right that general polution is not only CO2, there are many more elements that could kill life. All the 'green' discussion that's going on in the real life is kinda one-sided - it centers on CO2 and leaves everything else aside. The truth is that if we don't tackle at least the water poluting practices and waste recycling, and on a big scale at that, the planet is going to hell. The chain reaction is gonna destroy so much of life (not all, of course) that the planet won't be able to support humans anymore. 

And Pete1061, you are entitled to not like all the green stuff being shoved in your face, but it depends ultimately on every one of us to stop polution. The state can do only so much to prevent it. Only we, as customers, could really force the corporations to stop poluting.

 

[morriswalters 16]

soltangris

Ozone would create the reaction you describe and trees and rain alleviate it.  However as far as the game is concerned MC overstates pollution for a reason.  It's one of the tools they use to force you to trade.  It's their primary game focus at this point until they have more content.(that's my opinion). Oddly enough their resonse to another problem gives you some help, bonuses.  They are suppose to increase the park effect in a patch at some point in time. And it's going to change sound pollution.  Give up one thing take another.  Personally I think on the right maps with good planning maybe 5 million in population shouldn't produce bad pollution.  I am in the process of trying this idea out on a farm map.

[Sainty 0]

Originally posted by: soltangris

 You draw your conclusions.quote>

I have a degree in environmental science and I have been working with the subject for couple of years now. In this matter, I dont have to draw any conclusions, I know exectly what kind of effect parks have on pollution and citizens and I know what effects pollution have on parks, animal life, the city and people. And Im more than happy to share that knowledge if you want to know more about your situation.

Like I stated before, parks are needed in the city to give satisfaction and happiness. But as a weapon against pollution in a city the parks are useless, even in theory. And please remember that this thread is about pollution vs trees rather than pollution vs satisfaction.

Pollution makes you sick and takes couple of years of your life, no matter how satisfied you are.

[soltangris 42]

Sainty, I respect your degree but how do you explain the effect I describe? Why do I (and not only I) feel better when ʹm in a park area? I don

[mr cars 1]

Personally I think pollution should decrease the efficiency of Health services.

EG:I go to London,which is fairly polluted,do I trudge around unhappy because there's some pollution? No. But if I was there for the rest of my life would it affect my health? Probaly.

@Sainty: What are you talking about when you say every kid from europe should know the life cycle of heavy Metals before they can read? I don't think I knew that much before I could read? And saying:

Originally posted by: soltangris

I know that we all come from different parts of the world so Americans are excused, but you if come from Europe: shame on you!quote>

[josefmayor 8]

Originally posted by: soltangris

Sainty, I respect your degree but how do you explain the effect I describe? Why do I (and not only I) feel better when Í´m in a park area? quote>

Its the same reason that natural light makes people 20-30% more productive. Humans were meant to be in nature and interact with it, just as natural light makes us happier and feel better than artifical light.