Planet offer: Manipulating the trading market.

[manuelandrei 0]

Please correct me if I have missunderstod any part of the game mechanics that might lead to incorrect statements in this post.

Due to the nature of asynchronous trading in Cities XL problems arrise. Especially if we are allowed to trade between our own cities.

Scenario 1.

City A is specialized in the manufacturing industry and as such is dependent on buying both heavy industries and offices from City F.

City A buys 5 tokens heavy industry and 5 tokens offices from City F.

City A sells 10 tokens manufacturing to Omnicorp (edited: Computer city that buys and sells everything). 

What happends to the manufacturing industry in City A once the contracts for heavy industry and offices from City F expires? As long as you don't enter City A (forcing a synchronization) nothing.

So far this is not really a problem because City A won't gain anything as long as we stay offline.

However the mayor for City A also has a City B. City B sells one token of something to City A for all the cash tokens

City A is producing. City B is just using City A as a "milking cow"

Scenario 2.

Mayor D is a new actor on the water market. The competitions is fears and its rather difficult to compete with prices.

Mayor D start buying up all the cheap water contracts and then:

a. puts them back on the market at a higher price

b. cancels the contract removing all the competition from the market.

Summary

Are there any mechanics in place to counter the above outlined scenarious?

For Scenario 1. they could do something like:

1. Disable trading between our own cities.

2. Only allow 1 city in planet offer instead of 5. Let people experiment with different cities offline.

What about scenario 2?

Should we be allowed to cancel trade contracts anyway we like? Should there be a canceling fee? Shoud there be a limitation to the number of contracts you can cancel every 24 hours?

What about blacklisting the competition? If I want to sell something on the "open market" but I don't want to do business with Mayor X because his just canceling the contracts how can I stop him from buying up my contracts?

We know very little about the trading mechanics. You can only come so far in the demo with testing especially with all the bugs.

Debate!

[Rutgar 0]

So far, I've found the trading aspects of this game really flaky. Of course, it could all be due to the demo. Also, I don't know who 'Omnicorp' is, but the difference between what Omnicorp buys credits for, vs. what they sell them for is obscene. And I think there should be some sort of controls in the game to limit this sort of monoply-styled market cornering.

[morriswalters 16]

Omnicorp is MC's trading company.  Their prices are absurd, but it does provide some pricing info, in the sense that you shouldn't buy anything at a cost greater than what Omnicorps will sell it for.  On the other end you shouldn't try to sell anything at a lower price than what Omnicorp will buy it for. They are the trading partner of last resort.  They are also the most reliable.

[Rutgar 0]

Wouldn't the trading work best if all of it was left entirely up to the actual players? Regulate; yes. Participate; no. Omnicorp is a microcosm of big government interference, and at least on the onset, appears to be skewing the fair market prices of the tokens in the game.

[morriswalters 16]

Think about this.  Until this whole shooting match gets up and going there may not be anybody else to trade with.  Trust me when I tell you, Omnicorp doesn't skew anything.  Think of it like their setting a price floor or a price ceiling. If they bother you ignore them.  Eventually when the kinks are worked out It appears that it should be self regulating.  But if you've operated a business you would be aware that pricing is the most difficult part.  Look at the conversations about MC's pricing.

[Teddah 1]

Scenario 1 is an exploit that would need to be addressed.

Scenario 2 is just economics at work. Remember that it would take a significant investment to buy up the competition, which is money that could be used to further develop your city. Also, if someone realises that their resources are being used in this way, there's nothing stopping them from cancelling the deal and re-listing it at the higher price.

[manuelandrei 0]

Scenario 1. is not an exploit by definition. Call it an undocumented feature. lol

Scenario 2a. is indeed economics at work and I can accept that.

Scenario 2b. is worse. If we are allowed to buy and then immediately cancel contracts then a person "cleaner" with a lot of time on their hands can be hired to just remove the competition from the market.

[Teddah 1]

I think I recall reading that once a contract is accepted, it stays in effect for 5 days before it can be cancelled. I could be making that up, though. If that's true, it should be sufficient to prevent buying up contracts and then cancelling them. You'll actually have to try to sell them at a higher price or lose all that money.

If I'm just making that up, well, hint hint, MC.

[JakeMD 107]

[kevinj319 0]

You can cancel contracts at any time, and there is no penalty.

It is this way by design. The CEO of MC stated in an interview that they are not interested in placing penalties on canceled contracts. He imagines that this will encourage players to interact outside the game and you would send "an angry email" to the person who canceled the contract. Yes, this is their actual game plan.

Jerome Gastaldi:

"We want a guy to fail to make the contracted resources, and then receiving an angry e-mail from someone else. We want that kind of thing we want to happen."

RPS: So what happens if they default on a deal? That will lead to problems for the person who doesn’t get their supplies.

Jerome Gastaldi: "We think we have enough tools in terms of the comments they can leave to effectively do that, rather than a flag. We don’t want to punish people because… some people will do it on person. Say I’m competing with you. You’re number 2 and I’m number 3 in the resources. I get someone else to not send you the guys you needed to keep a project going, just so I can go one up… it’s the game. If it points out every time, it’s just like a schoolmaster. I think it’ll be like natural selection."

So, what you see as a flaw, MC sees as a "feature."

Source: www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/02/the-talk-of-the-town-cities-xls-jerome-gastaldi/

[RegisterST2 0]

Originally posted by: kevinj319

Jerome Gastaldi:

"We want a guy to fail to make the contracted resources, and then receiving an angry e-mail from someone else. We want that kind of thing we want to happen."

quote>

Wonder how many newbies who simply run into unexpected problems with their first city and receive these angry emails are going to say "screw it" and quit playing online.  I know a few people who think online games are filled with jackasses. A lot of people don't feel like dealing with them.

Also find it amusing they want to encourage angry communication between their customers but can't stand angry posts on their forums so they shut them down.

Just two oddball thoughts from someone who is overtired and needs sleep badly.  *shrugs*

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

When SC4 came out the players did a lot of experimenting and in fact there was a very active forum here at ST just for 'Game Experiements'  I suspect that players will want to experiment with the game and poke around under the hood to see what makes it tick.

Folks might even find some things out that even MC were not aware of...   I am sure that happened to Maxis...   the way SC is being played today is a far cry from how the original developers envisioned it. 

[manuelandrei 0]

Originally posted by: kevinj319

So, what you see as a flaw, MC sees as a "feature."

quote>

Someone failing to commit to a contract because his power plant blow up is one thing. Having someone sabotaging the market by buying up and then canceling contracts is something else.

I don't believe Jerome Gastaldi is aware of the later. Comments is not good enough if thats the only tool they have.

[morriswalters 16]

Trading will sort itself out. People who want to trade will find a way to make it work.  The question should rather be are there enough of those players to support the planet offer. 

The trading systems biggest problem is that since there is no real property exchanged there is no incentive to stay in a contract once it is no longer in your best interest.  In game assets should never be left idle.  The game is set up so that what you don't trade has no value.  What you trade is flow.  Money in the game past the ability to buy certain items is worthless.  Cash flow is important.  So to statetgy.  Never leave an asset unsold.  Sell it to omnicorp.  Advertise  what you want to trade, the minute you can get a better deal cancel with omnicorp and sell that asset to your new partner.  And of course your new partner should fear that to.  How perfectly capitalistic. Not!

For myself I would rather see some trades that would be in items that you would own.  Buildings, utilities, or whatever.

[soldyne 111]

I had lots of contracts with three different cities I created (at different times of course) trading over 40 different contracts total (throughout the demo) and I was not able to cancel any contract I had ever. I kept clicking on that red X and nothing ever happened. I tried it in game city mode, in game planet mode and out of game on the website and I could not cancel a contract. I had to wait until the other city was deleted, they could not keep their end of the bargain or the 5 day limit expired. also, I read that in the live version there will be a way to trade directly with a person and you can negotiate a time limit. what is the point in having a time limit if you can cancel whenever you want without consequence?

if you want to trade then you better be willing to keep it for the duration and plan your city accordingly in order to keep it going.

also, I thought I read the PO as though you would have 5 cities on 5 different planets. this would make it so that you could not trade with yourself even if you wanted to since there is no interplanetary trading.

I don't mind omnicorp as they set a min and max value for tokens and are always available if you really need a trade. I know that when I needed to sell my office space but had not unlocked manufacturing yet I had to sell it to omnicorp just so I could build more office space and thus increase my population. but I would like to see those values change from time to time. it would be interesting if omnicorp values would fluctuate depending on various trading patterns. yeah, I know, that would require a bit of balance and programming on MCs part, but, it would be a nice feature for a future release.

EDIT - If MC is reading this ... I just want to say that there are people out there who get off and have fun bringing grief to other players.   they are known as Greifers and Player Killers.  their soul purpose in life is to gain personal pleasure from causing others misery.  with that said an "angry email" is only going to fuel their desire to continue to bring grief and will in no way curtail it.

my suggestion is to put some kind of penalty on breaking contracts early.  such as 10,000c per day that the contract has left on it.  thus if you have a new contract with 5 days remaining then you must lose 50,000c from your city as a one time fee which transfers to the other city as a one time payment.  this will limit the amount of grief that players can bring and will also allow the victim to gain some restitution.  also, trade contracts in the real world always have somekind of monetary early release clause.

this of course would not affect contracts that are "in trouble" due to lack of tokens because of a disaster in the city.

[USA_Pride 49]

LOL, reminds me of Enron. Watch the documentary "The Smartest Guys in the Room".

Trading I have faith can be fixed in time. The problem with any online gaming community is that players VERY QUICKLY find out how to exploit the system. I think Monte Cristo will be able to refine trading in the coming months once they see how some people will abuse it. I still don't think trading will ever be my idea of fun though.

I still would rather see more interaction via cooperative planning rather than commodity trading.

[YannickSHE 0]

Originally posted by: USA_Pride

LOL, reminds me of Enron. Watch the documentary "The Smartest Guys in the Room".

Trading I have faith can be fixed in time. The problem with any online gaming community is that players VERY QUICKLY find out how to exploit the system. I think Monte Cristo will be able to refine trading in the coming months once they see how some people will abuse it. I still don't think trading will ever be my idea of fun though.

I still would rather see more interaction via cooperative planning rather than commodity trading.quote>

I agree.

I would prefer cooperative planning between mayors rather than commodities. If I plan an highway out of city limits, I want the neighbor mayor to sync with me (and vice-versa). I want to create airport and seaport links with the nearby mayors. I want to make sure our city limits sync with each other. I want to talk with the neighbor mayor to make sure we share workers and tourists. Trading goods like oil, gold, minerals and other industrial goods is fine, but the token exchanges might get tiring after a while. We'll see.

[manuelandrei 0]

@morriswalters I agree with you that money in the game has no value and that cash flow is the important factor.

At least now we don't have to worry about gold farmers....just kidding.

@soldyne "where you can build up to 5 different cities on persistent planets"

You can already trade directly with someone else. Click on someones name in the chat and select the option "Start trading" You need to do this on someone that plays on the same planet as you. Two windows will open. On top the regular trading windows and behind it some sort of a search result with all the cities for the player that you clicked on. Click the "Start trading again and another window will open with the following image:

This image is a little bit different in the demo. At the bottom you can also adjust the duration of the contract:

I agree on some sort of a penalty for people that want to cancel a contract. Maybe a part of the cash flow I don't know.

[kevinj319 0]

Eliminating trade with your own cities would not solve the problem.

If I have a friend who is going on vacation and will not be playing the game for a week, we can make a trade where he gives me all of his cash tokens for something insignificant, like 1 agriculture token.

For every "tick" that I play the game, my city will get richer and richer as all of that money comes rolling in each "tick."

But won't that bankrupt my friend? No. If he never plays during that week, no money will be deducted from his city.

CXL boasts "persistent planets" but it does not have persistent cities, not really. You can make any sort of insane deals and it won't harm you at all while you are not playing.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

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