Nightlighting Help? (thread obsolete)

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Try here to remedy the problem.quote>

I searched it yesteday, and I can't find a good texture with just glass (not lattice and facade). Are there any?

For the lattice/window frames you've added, I'd make them brighter so they contrast more and thus stand out better so we can see themquote>

I want to, but it's already almost white - it appears dark as the columns are embedded in the glass. I might completely redo that...tomorrow. It's 00:32 where I live, and I need to rest.

Also, about the "fin"...imo, it should be symmetrical, and the texture on it seems a bit "pixelated"...quote>

The pixelation is an artifact of having a poor texture - I definitely need to fix that.

I tried a symmetrical fin, and I was reminded too much - in my opinion - of an obelisk. Perhaps there might be a workaround...

[CSGdesign 27]

RadicalOne, I already said, Google Images dude.

Type in "glass texture" in the search field found here.

I normally only bother browsing LARGE images cuz you usually have enough to choose from, although they're way bigger than you need so if you're doing something more specific (like searching for "DANGER NO SMOKING" for example) and your results are limited, you can afford to knock it down to include smaller images.

You can get to google images by simply clicking on the "IMAGES" link, top left, on the google page - www.google.com

Seriously, you're wasting your time with any other resource, in my opinion - everything you ever need google can provide.

Even street layouts for an particular city you care to name.  Even street VIEW for heaven's sake.  I luff google.  They send me a check for $0.25 every time I mention them in a thread on Simtropolis.  This message alone has earnt me a cool $1.00.  I'm gonna save it and when I get enough I'm gonna buy a cheeseburger.

Ok I lied they don't really pay me, but I still luv em.

EDIT: For example, here's one that might suit your BAT according to the style you're currently using.

And here's another that might suit it if you're open to altering it a bit.

Glass need stuff reflected in it though, but make sure it's not sky because a vertical glass plane being viewed from above reflects what is lower than it, not higher.  In other words, it's surrounding cityscape.  This is the problem with many glass buildings in Simcity, because the BAT-Builder doesn't ever actually know what will end up around it but can only guess.  Generally a large glass sky-scraper will have other tall buildings near it, so try to find a nice "cityscape" view and zoom in on a few of the scrapers in it and use that as your reflect map.

That's mah two-cents.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: CSGdesign

RadicalOne, I already said, Google Images dude.quote>

That's what I tried - I'm no stranger to images.google.ca - but as I said, most of the images were either not tileable, or were inaccessible.

EDIT: For example, here's one that might suit your BAT according to the style you're currently using.

And here's another that might suit it if you're open to altering it a bit.quote>

I have a use for that second one - though not as a glass texture.

Glass need stuff reflected in it though, but make sure it's not sky because a vertical glass plane being viewed from above reflects what is lower than it, not higher.  In other words, it's surrounding cityscape.  This is the problem with many glass buildings in Simcity, because the BAT-Builder doesn't ever actually know what will end up around it but can only guess.  Generally a large glass sky-scraper will have other tall buildings near it, so try to find a nice "cityscape" view and zoom in on a few of the scrapers in it and use that as your reflect map.quote>

Yes, someone suggested I try that, and I will, as it sounds promising. Thank you.

[JakeMD 107]

I wouldn't look online for window textures. Spend some time to make your own, make it so it fits your BAT. Jason made a great tutorial in his BAT thread, you may want to take a look at it. I think its in his sig

[Jazzmaster 716]

If you have MSN, I have some base window textures I'd be willing to share. PM me if you're interested.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: Yoshiisland

If you have MSN, I have some base window textures I'd be willing to share. PM me if you're interested.quote>

I don't have MSN - adware - but if you have a rapidshare account or something...

[Evillions 552]

Originally posted by: RadicalOne

Please tell me this is an improvement...

quote>

Much.Much better! But agian, it looks werid with that fin which Simfox said earier. You need more roof junk, side junk such as neon signs if you have 3dsmax. You can also make it a sprial, but only with Simfox's apporval. You can look at the New World Trade Center that's at New York City. Like try to look at real-lfe before you actcally start making things.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: Evillions

You need more roof junk, side junk such as neon signs if you have 3dsmax.quote>

I have added more since - an image is coming within the next couple of hours, hopefully - but I am using gmax. I have no copy of 3ds max.

You can also make it a sprial, but only with Simfox's apporval.quote>

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean.

EDIT:

I can't have too many objects, and thus I can't have much in the way of fine detail - balcony "junk", side "junk", etc, or I get the dreaded "Out of Memory" error.

Anyways, these are the changes made so far:

1. Balcony "junk" was added, including bikes and chairs. People were too difficult to texture.

2. Some textures were repaired, but I'm having trouble with the reflection texture - the building won't map it properly, and I need to set the UVW to something small, like 12x12x12, or I end up with pixelation, no matter the texture size.

3. The vertical support columns were enlarged and thus visibly lightened, as they are no longer completely embedded in the glass.

4. The fin material was made transparent, as yet only applicable in preview renders - I won't go for the patching program until after the model is complete.

5. The roof was rearranged, with 2 large HVAC units added.

6. The mirrored floor tiles in the lobby were given a better texture.

[Odainsaker 2,135]

Wow, reading this thread is like timewarping back to early deisgn school and studio presentation critiques.  Actually, this thread and project was a good exercise just for that raw experience.

While I'm timewarping, here is a blast from the bygone days of SC2000 scurk, one of my earliest creations:

Okay, it's silly whimsy!  Don't laugh.  WHIMSY!  Anyone want to guess its original inspiration or its final SimCity 4 successor now on the STEX?  Okay, laugh, it's truly misbegottenly fugly.  But it was also its own learning experience/

Which brings us to The Fin.  Recreations tend to be about skill in modelling a real world building, where the real building design decisions have already been made.  Fantasy buildings have that added level where you not only have to model the building convincingly, but actually design it as well.  While modelling may be about our technical skills, for which we all start at various levels and then learn along the way, there is also always something much more personal when it comes to a design.  It is our own design, our own ideas, our own enamourments.

I think we have a fixed idea of a type and shape of fin, and are then flailing to make the building work with it.  This happens alot when force-fitting designs, and while the approach can work, it can also create many headaches.  Afterall, how is the fin supported?  But this can also be a back-and-forth feedback by taking from the building to inform the fin.  What we might do is bring up what might be the major columns of the building such that it creates a framework into which a fin could be made.  As an example, which by no way need necessarily be the right way, here is a doodle I roughly made after pulling up some columns through the roof:

Okay, now it is a head nodule, which is kinda creepy, so let's call it a "lantern."  Maybe illuminated glass is installed, and we can imagine an intricate supporting framework, a hidden mechanical penthouse, and even room for exterior equipment and service cranes.  Okay, my lantern is still fugly--hey, some buildings do indeed have head nodules!--but, hopefully some of the thought process came through.  You earlier variations had a longer building, which might have had a longer run of framework columns, which could be a long translucent segmented or even folded screen.  The wider building actually had somewhat better proportions, as this one seems too tall.  I from natural habit put the crowning focus on the center, but maybe the emphasis is instead a screen along the periphery and far edges rather than the center.  Maybe to get the previous fin shape, if that shape is fixed requirement, then perhaps the building has to to change to provide a convincing framework with supports in the right place.  This is all the design process, and it can be liberating to let the process happen, and allow the unanticipated solutions to bubble forth.

I just realized that's shubbery on the edges of each floor.  That's probably overdoing it...the plantings would never survive, and the runoff would damage such a building.  But you might be able to do it on the lower floors.  Indeed, you might terrace the lower floors into something forming a base with entry atriums.  Opps, I'm doing another critique pitfall...making my own project out of yours, lol!

I hope this helps, or was at least interesting to read.  Remember, these BAT help and design threads, and even the harsh critiques in them, are all free input...design students pay small fortunes for the exact same process, so take advantage of all of us.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

I'm afraid I am unable to make heads or tails of that image. Forgive me, but all I see is a few scribbles. But to answer your question, the fin is held up by its "veins" of steel that are 2.5x as thick as the glass. In theory, the veins and frame would continue into the roof for several meters and merge into a few of the support columns. I didn't model that as it would not look any different (all changes would be internal to the tower), and it just increases model complexity.

As for the shrubbery, noone said it was real - convincing artifical flora is fairly inexpensive, and is commonly used in such situations.

Here it is for now:

Please note that the fin transparency is currently unfinished, and ignore those tiny specks to the right of the fin - image transmission error.

[SimFox 802]

First of all it would be great to see this render at 100% size. Now we look at 50% version which is silly (I assume you render it at zoom5, right?)

Back to Fin...

Well, I believe (after looking at the drawings posted by some people from this thread and others) that the problem stems from the way how these structures had been envisioned. Namely that they were envisioned first of all in strictly 2d, and secondly in a very small and sketchy fashion.

First had resulted in this striking alienation between the building itself, once it gained 3rd dimension, and Fin that didn't get it and remained essentially 2d. This is responsible for a big part (although not entirely) for it looking so alien and unattached (stylistically not structurally at this point) to the building. Apart from that the asymmetric nature of thin is in stark contrast to the very rigid symmetry of the building itself. You've said you made it so because otherwise it turned into obelisk.. Well... if you designed what is essentially obelisk what else do you expect to see? By changing Fin into this odd shape you simply made it into and odd (in a rather bad way) obelisk, but it remains obelisk...

Second had resulted in a model with too many blanks to be believable. This holds true to the building as well as Fin, but in Fin this is a virtually screaming issue. It is just so totally unrealistic and un-convincing. I asked right from the start what is it made of. You clearly trying to give impression of glass... Apart for the point (expressive of such a decision - which btw is very dubious) the structural issues make it totally unrealistic. Where have you seen glass that could be made into those enormous sheets that could withstand it's own weight, let alone the wind pressure? This is why I right from the start said "don't tell me that this i 2250" . Later you've added some structure, but it remains absolutely inadequate to make it believable.

About f Odain's suggestions... well, I can quite clearly see that he suggests in his "drawing" (not sure how to classify his bitmap). I also believe that your inability to see it comes from first point I've made. you keep seeing things in 2D. It will take some time and practice to get away with this habit, don't despair!

I don't want to give any direct instructions what you have to do, because as Odain had pointed out it should be your project. Our's should remain critique. Meaning to point things that don't work and explain why, rather than tell you what to do. Many see later as a "constructive criticism". But that's not true. It actually takes away your creativity and doesn't tech explain anything. What we try to do is to explain principles that you would be able freely to use to realize yourself.

You have to understand that everyone starts with bad decision and lack of experience. Of course some people have some head start as they have been interested in say architecture in a serious way for years before stared BATing etc... But it is always a learning process, there is absolutely no shame in that. Look at this building it is a significant improvement over the original. You've made it because you've made conscious decision not to reject some unpleasant words and take action, learn! This is great and courageous decision and yuou have to be commended for it! This is the only way to advance.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

Originally posted by: SimFox

You've said you made it so because otherwise it turned into obelisk.. Well... if you designed what is essentially obelisk what else do you expect to see? By changing Fin into this odd shape you simply made it into and odd (in a rather bad way) obelisk, but it remains obelisk...quote>

I designed it with nothing at all (in terms of other buildings) in mind. Yet with a symmetrical fin, the image of an obelisk was the first thing that came to mind. Ergo, the difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical is large.

Second had resulted in a model with too many blanks to be believable.quote>

Blanks? I don't follow...

Where have you seen glass that could be made into those enormous sheets that could withstand it's own weight, let alone the wind pressure? This is why I right from the start said "don't tell me that this i 2250" . Later you've added some structure, but it remains absolutely inadequate to make it believable.quote>

First off, please stop acting as I'm responding "it's from 2250" to everything - I mentioned that - and it was not about this BAT, but rather a music composition - to convey how alien my style - not in terms of realization quality, but in foundational ideas - is. The way you use it, it becomes a strawman, as I said eariler.

Moving on, the new variation of the fin is inspired by a hybridization of aquatic fins and an insect's wings. Following the style of the latter, I can run it through with smaller veins. Will that improve it?

you keep seeing things in 2D.quote>

I can assure you I don't, but rather that the - aformentioned - inspiration for that fin is itself two-dimensional.

[Jasoncw 11,841]

Sweet Jesus!!  You're getting some of the best critiquing that anyone has gotten in a BAT thread in some time, by some of the best BATers of all time, and all you can manage to do is argue about it!  But regardless of how you respond to other people's criticism, I think this thread will be valuable for other people, so:

I'm afraid I am unable to make heads or tails of that image.  Forgive me, but all I see is a few scribbles.quote>

The specifics may be hard to make out, because it's a sketch, but a close look at the sketch and his words make what he is suggesting clear.  The important part is that he brought aspects of the building into the fin, to help make them more cohesive.  He extends some columns upwards, and continues the ring form from the building on top.  Some kind of structural latticework is added to the inside, and a fin shape is added to the sides.  The "nodule" as he called it, continues the design language of the rest of the tower. 

The fin is held up by its "veins" of steel that are 2.5x as thick as the glass. In theory, the veins and frame would continue into the roof for several meters and merge into a few of the support columns. I didn't model that as it would not look any different (all changes would be internal to the tower), and it just increases model complexity.quote>

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.  Do you mean that on the inside of the building, the 5 parts in the inside of the fin, divide and spread outward to form the columns for the rest of the building, almost like putting hair into a poney tail?  I think an approach like that could work, but I think you would need to be visible on the outside of the building.  Right now there's nothing to suggest that, or any other connection (design or structural) to the building.

As for the shrubbery, noone said it was real - convincing artifical flora is fairly inexpensive, and is commonly used in such situations.quote>

When someone tells you, "plants can't actually live there" the solution is not to say "well, they're fake then."  That may be possible, but it's bad design.  Imagine how silly it would be to have to explain that to the occupants or the client.  And what happens during the different seasons?  All together there are a lot of implications and it ends up being silly.  But I can already imagine interesting ways in which you could transition between the plants on the lower floors and the plantless higher floors.  Remember that design solutions are meant to solve problems, and aren't done in spite of problems, and certainly aren't meant to create problems.  Normally I don't think the planters would need so much criticism, since it's for a computer game, but I think it does here because your design is far out, and needs that extra amount of scrutiny in order to get that extra amount of believability, or else it becomes "futuristic themed" which is something you're avoiding.  I also think it's important because you're thinking of yourself as a designer, and not just a custom content creator.  But I do really like planters like that, I even used them on an architecture school project last year.

I designed it with nothing at all (in terms of other buildings) in mind. Yet with a symmetrical fin, the image of an obelisk was the first thing that came to mind. Ergo, the difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical is large.quote>

I have to second SimFox.  I don't know how much of an obelisk it is (or how much more of an obelisk it is than any other building like that), but if it's an obelisk, making the fin funny doesn't make it not an obelisk, it just makes it an obelisk with a funny fin on top.  Also, I think to any observer, it will look like you simply modeled it sloppily, and also, like I was saying before, you need as much believability as you can get for this kind of unusual design.

Blanks? I don't follow...quote>

Blanks of logic, design, thought, etc.  It's hard to explain, but if you zoom into any particular spot, it's hard to find the specificity of design or thought that makes that spot make sense.  I think part of this comes from the huge size of the building, and from working on the building in zoom 4.  You should work on your BAT in zoom 5, while occasionally doing zoom 4 renders to check how it looks from there.  If the building is unmanageable at zoom 5, you should make the building smaller until it becomes managable.  You'll think to yourself that that is how you want it and that the design would be different at a smaller scale, but sometimes you have to abandon something good for something better.  It's just part of the design process.

First off, please stop acting as I'm responding "it's from 2250" to everything - I mentioned that - and it was not about this BAT, but rather a music composition - to convey how alien my style - not in terms of realization quality, but in foundational ideas - is. The way you use it, it becomes a strawman, as I said eariler.quote>

You may not specifically be using "it's from 2250" for everything, but you're using other excuses for why the critique doesn't apply.  One of the biggest ones is "the plants could be fake, so your criticism doesn't apply".

Moving on, the new variation of the fin is inspired by a hybridization of aquatic fins and an insect's wings. Following the style of the latter, I can run it through with smaller veins. Will that improve it?quote>

Why aquatic fins, and insect wings, and a combination?  What do those things have to do with your building, or the activities that go on inside of your building, etc.?  Why is that combination not arbitrary?  Why not jellyfish and sea urchins?  Or why not bird feathers?  Why not clouds?  These other things have just as little (as far as I know) to do with your building, and they all inspire very different forms.  Or did you think of the form first, and then thought of something to justify that form?  Or if your building is about insect wings, where else are they in the design?  These types of questions matter less (they still do matter though) for BATs for a computer game, but since you consider yourself to be a designer, you can be treated like a designer.

As a whole the BAT is improving and the design is becoming more cohesive, but there's still a lot to be done and all of the criticism still applies.

[ReikaKalseki 52]

That comment was extremely condescending and rude, essentially being the textual equivalent of repeating the other person's remarks in a mocking voice.  You are treating me like a child, and a mentally incompetent one at that. I am not going to sit here and be treated like that. Cliché as it is, I was not born yesterday.

More, I have found another location - which will remain unnamed - in which criticism is given without undertones of insult and ridicule.

Ergo, I'm leaving this thread.

It would do you well to keep in mind that while you are more experienced, and hold higher ground here, the same does not necessarily apply in real life. This is just a forum that is part of an online community devoted to one game - in the larger picture, everyone on this site - from the newest members to the founder himself - is a human being, we are all on roughly equal ground, with everyone skilled in different areas, and we all deserve each others' respect. Just because you are a big name here does not mean you can act like you are above everyone else.

Goodbye.

In a footnote, I can predict the responses to this post will be none too favorable.

[Jasoncw 11,841]

You are treating me like a child, and a mentally incompetent one at that.quote>

You're being treated like a competent adult who wants to design.  You're being given hard criticism because people think that you'll use it.  The problems with your BAT are being addressed bluntly because we're confident that they're beginner's problems that you'll move past and which don't mean much.  And because the criticisms have been so hard, people have made a point of showing you their early BATs, and plainly stating that these are beginner issues that you'll move past, and which you shouldn't take personally.

The people who are treating you like a child are the ones who are giving you skin deep criticisms.  They don't expect you to get much better than you already are, so they don't bother getting into the deeper issues.  They don't think you're capable of comprehending bigger concepts, so they don't bother.  They pad their comments about your beginner attempts because they think that's how good you actually are, and they don't want to hurt your feelings.  Or they make a skin deep criticism and say something nice just to be supportive, because they think you don't have the self confidence and self motiviation to stay active without it.

The only thing I'm guilty of is responding poorly to your tone of voice (and I know mine is blunt), which is pretentious (you're a newbie on a website about a computer game, and you're using this formal, "intellectual" tone of voice), and because you've been dismissing or entirely ignoring all of the great criticism (which is exceptionally constructive, btw, but only if you take it) while getting your panties in a bunch over statements that you're missing the point of or that don't matter anyway.

[Neddiggis 1]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

Sweet Jesus!!  You're getting some of the best critiquing that anyone has gotten in a BAT thread in some time, by some of the best BATers of all time, and all you can manage to do is argue about it!  But regardless of how you respond to other people's criticism, I think this thread will be valuable for other people, so:

quote>

Really?  Lets recap some of what you and SimFox have said.  (Yes I have taken the worst quotes, but they are quotes I feel totally unnecessary in critiques, especially the last one from you)

Originally posted by: SimFox

Unfortunately, plenty.

First thing you have to do is to seit and take a long look at your creation.

Then try to built in your head explanations for the things you are doing.

There are way to many illogical spots stating from the lattice... Also there doesn't seem to be any respect to sizes and proportions... It all looks unjustified, arbitrary.

As a result the final creations is odd, no more then that.quote>

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

It's hard to feel like it would be worthwhile to critique someone who's being defensive.quote>

 

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

Your BATs suck.  You're new, so that's ok (I've made much worse BATs myself), but that's what it comes down to plain and simple.  Untill you fully accept that (you haven't yet, or else you wouldn't be trying to explain away the critiques (and yes, that's what you're doing, whether or not you're trying to)), you're not going to get any better.  And you need to get better because your BATs suck.  It doesn't mean anything, and it's not a reflection on you, that's just how it is.

quote>

Who the hell tells someone new they BATs suck?!  Sure, his BAT's need some work, but saying they suck isn't going to help inspire him in anyway.   What a way to treat new members!

 

[JakeMD 107]

It was a different way of getting to him. If you read, you might find that most of the help he was getting, was going right over his head and and it seemed like he would just have an excuse and was getting defensive. Common, yes, but it is hard to help someone who won't let us help them, neddiggis.

Well Radicalone, Sorry you couldn't take the heat. I know that if you would have taken our criticism lightly the first time around, this would have turned out different. Good luck on your other projects.

[tag_one 133]

Originally posted by: swat-medic

It was a different way of getting to him. If you read, you might find that most of the help he was getting, was going right over his head and and it seemed like he would just have an excuse and was getting defensive. Common, yes, but it is hard to help someone who won't let us help them, neddiggis.

Well Radicalone, Sorry you couldn't take the heat. I know that if you would have taken our criticism lightly the first time around, this would have turned out different. Good luck on your other projects.quote>

If someone starts saying "your BATs suck" to me I would become defenive as well, and so would you...

Maybe that's just a way of how people react to someone that sounds rude. I know you guys ment well, but please keep in mind that it's quite offending to hear things like "your BATs suck" to some people.

Also keep in mind that BATting is a hobby and not a profession. This is a free site and you don't have to pay hunderd of dollars a month for downloads if you don't want too. This is just a fun site where people are sharing the same hobby and not your office where you can shout to that lazy secretary. We BATters all decide how deep we want to dive in this matter and not everyone wants or has the time do become a true master. As this hobby is free no one should be forced to become a master or being bullied away with rude comments if he doesn't want to become one...

I hope you understand my point of view. And I do really hope that some of you respected users will start thinking about their behavoir to new members. 

Best Regards,

Tag_one

[madhatter106 3,903]

Originally posted by: tag_one

If someone starts saying "your BATs suck" to me I would become defenive as well, and so would you...

Maybe that's just a way of how people react to someone that sounds rude. I know you guys ment well, but please keep in mind that it's quite offending to hear things like "your BATs suck" to some people.quote>

 

Well, they didn't just say "your BATs suck."  They went on to elaborate different ways to make them better and to see/think through the process in a logical and rational way, rather than just design what the OP thought to be "aesthetically pleasing" and "his style." 

There's a large international forum that I've been on and off for a couple of years, which deals with illustration and artwork; the majority of the posters there are really quite good, and can critique and deconstruct and examine the in's and out's of any given image.  Sometimes the newer posters that  join the site expect accolades and high-fives for their work, when in reality they aren't at the level of some others.  There's a lot of "tough love" on that site sometimes, but if you can hack it and listen to what these people say (and who have been there before and learned from their mistakes and gotten better and better), you can grow leaps and bounds.  They aren't outwardly mean, unless provoked, but they can be a tad blunt - but like in any creative endeavour, sometimes that's what makes you a whole lot better.

It's kind of like Project Runway American Idol or any other creative-based reality show?  If you want the asspats and adoration, you either better be extremely good straight out of the gate, or you listen to the judges that want to help you improve and get the best out of you.  It's sad that some in this thread acted a touch more like Simon Cowell than Paula Abdul, but in the long of it, it's Simon Cowell who really has something constructive to say...

[Neddiggis 1]

Really? You think just because you follow an insult up with ways to improve it makes it OK? That's just nuts. There are better ways of saying it and coming from a Moderator on this site I would find it very offensive if it was aimed at me. I'm all in favour of constructive criticism, but that wasn't it. I've done a 4 year professional design degree and another 6 years practice and never once received constructive criticism like this.

And for the record, I find shows like Project Runway, American Idol etc utter tripe.

[CSGdesign 27]

When a poster who I've never seen before and who is unlikely to have read anything of mine before says something like "it's probably your habit of" then that just demonstrates they're a bit loose in the skull and loose with what they say. ie: Its a reflection on them. Making a personal judgement at all is weak and unecessary, but making a stupidly uninformed and baseless one is just tragic. Unfortunately people with that mentality have gotten there by being unable to see it like that, so don't even try to explain it, just smile and move on.

When someone is baring their work and asking for a critique, anyone worth half their weight in salt goes about giving that critique with respect and if the artist doesn't accept your critique or gets defensive or flips out and does the mamba, well that's their problem, not the person giving the critique. If on the other hand the person giving the critique does it in a vindictive, antagonist, or personal way, then the artist asking for the critique should recognise the lack of value in it and move on.

RadicalOne's difficulty is that he's probably fairly new to building anything and is just learning and so doesn't like getting his bubble burst and is inexperienced with the fact that many people who've had training in 3d building (or any skills for that matter) get a sad form of pleasure out of putting others they perceive as less skilled than themselves down. Hopefully with time RadicalOne will come to understand it's the insulter who is putting themselves down, not the other way around, and be less defensive.

The key with learning any new skill, especially an art like 3d, is to NOT get attached to it emotionally. It's just a production. People in the industries of design where clients make the call and almost always choose the dumbest option know this and quickly learn that they can't afford to "fall in love" with their creations. Its an important skill to have and I hope RadicalOne can learn it because it will lead to being able to accept all forms of criticism, even Simfox style provocative self-praising criticism, and the ability to sift through the crap and take advantage of the few rare nuggets that are actually good input. This will lead to improvement and eventually he'll be in a position to put other new guys down if he feels so inclined. With luck he'll be socially aware enough to not have to.

[Jazzmaster 716]

I do apologize if anything I said appears harsh, as it's unintentional.  I won't speak for Jason, SimFox, or anybody else here on what their motives were, but it goes without saying that looking in this thread and the BATs shown, I saw a bit of my old BATs (a bit of my old BATs, not necessarily myself personally).  Which was why I wanted to jump up and help this guy, because like anybody here, he has a helluva a lot of potential. 

But when I type the longest three paragraphs I've ever typed in a long time, it's not for myself, it's not to inflate my ego or look good in anybody else's eyes, and it's certainly not to belittle a newcomer.  I do it for the sake of helping someone, and when all I get in response is a bunch of excuses (I don't design for the sake of design, beauty and design can't mix, I envision things a different way then you all, etc.), then yeah, I get a little irritated, because even I can only continue to try to help someone for so long, before I give up realizing it's not really being absorbed, it's being either rejected or ignored.

But hey?  You don't want it, that's fine, I won't force my ideas and such on you, I mean I'm not exactly the world's most proeffecient 3D designer.

[MrCinatit 30]

I am going to go ahead and close this thread.