Industry in Western Europe and North America

[saltandsauce 0]

as we all know, the western economies don't seem to make many things, most hairdryers and washing machiens etc.

are made in the developing countries (Pacific rim) only luxury goods or high technology goods seem to be made in the West.

However, since the collapse of the financial sector and corporate fear of buying debt, objections to sweatshops and such and now the imbalance of trade which is seriously hurting governments books now. All employment avenues seem to be exhausted except from manufacturing (although there are big hurdles there aren't many people engaged in it currently). does anyone think that the post post industrial economy is on it's way?

British government has released it's "new industry, new jobs" [L=myurl]http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file51023.pdf[/L]

which says it wants manufacturing back although it has sugarcoated it with phrases such as "green", "sustainable" and "low carbon"

I'm sure the USA and Canada are going to do something similar if they haven't already done so.

No matter what happens it's pretty obvious that westerners will have to accept lower pay and live more frugally. or to re-phrase it "lower standards of living" and austerity

[Kryptowhite 9]

Absolutely, "green" "sustainable" whatever you want to call it is booming here in america, if i'm right its the fastest growing industry in America. Im sure cities like pittsburg cleveland and detroit would love to see america return to some industry

[sneakeypete 16]

Sustaniable is such a horrible word, especially when its coupled with growth.

[belfastuniguy 18]

No matter what happens it's pretty obvious that westerners will have to accept lower pay and live more frugally. or to re-phrase it "lower standards of living" and austerityquote>

Unlikely, some people will accept a cut in pay or freeze for a short period to ensure they remain in the job, however, they won't accept that for long. It's not as easy as you seem to believe for people and society to switch to lower pay and lower standards. Life in the western developed nations is expensive and justly so, that's not going to change any time soon. Once the economy starts to recover then people will be expecting their pay to increase.

The financial sector is not forever dead, bad debts will and are being dealt with, banks are now starting to make profit and we still have incredibly solvent and powerful financial institutions. The markets have started to recover and economies are showing signs of improvement, the worst is now over.

There will be no sudden resurgence in manufacturing in the west, that's no longer our area of expertise. We will always be undercut be ever cheaper foreign nations, so it's incredibly pointless and indeed expensive to consider such a resurgence. The difference is we have the higher skilled workforce and increased development to take advantage of clean technology manufacture, as we already do and will continue to dominate (developed nations).

The stated viewpoint is not only flawed but back lacking in grounded logic. Austerity? I don't think so, our economy will come out of this recession in stronger form and somewhat more leaner and more competitive.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: sneakeypete

Sustaniable is such a horrible word, especially when its coupled with growth.quote>

How so?

[saltandsauce 0]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

No matter what happens it's pretty obvious that westerners will have to accept lower pay and live more frugally. or to re-phrase it "lower standards of living" and austerityquote>

Unlikely, some people will accept a cut in pay or freeze for a short period to ensure they remain in the job, however, they won't accept that for long. It's not as easy as you seem to believe for people and society to switch to lower pay and lower standards. Life in the western developed nations is expensive and justly so, that's not going to change any time soon. Once the economy starts to recover then people will be expecting their pay to increase.

The financial sector is not forever dead, bad debts will and are being dealt with, banks are now starting to make profit and we still have incredibly solvent and powerful financial institutions. The markets have started to recover and economies are showing signs of improvement, the worst is now over.

There will be no sudden resurgence in manufacturing in the west, that's no longer our area of expertise. We will always be undercut be ever cheaper foreign nations, so it's incredibly pointless and indeed expensive to consider such a resurgence. The difference is we have the higher skilled workforce and increased development to take advantage of clean technology manufacture, as we already do and will continue to dominate (developed nations).

The stated viewpoint is not only flawed but back lacking in grounded logic. Austerity? I don't think so, our economy will come out of this recession in stronger form and somewhat more leaner and more competitive.

quote>

ummm, do you think that developing countries have less able workers?, if you think your jobs are safe because you are in an office or scientific job then you should remember that developing countries have smart people too and they won't all want to move here. all ends of employment  are open to foreign competition.

"leaner" and "more competitive" ? you do realise that that means more job cuts? a more competitive company employs less than any other company of the same size or stature. in Britain you'll still have the 3 million unemployed. and if companies are leaner and more competitive you'll have all those people unemployed from that skinny (now emaciated)

"efficiency drive"

you don't think people won't accept lower pay? if you are offered the choice of lower pay and redundancy you are going to go for lower pay unless you're ready for retirement and actually have a pension. and don't think "oh, i'll just go and get another job" because that's highly unlikley. jobs in general are VERY hard to get even the cleaning jobs.  dole money is going to go down because of more people on it and that is going to make people more reluctant to go into unemployment if they can avoid it.

everyone's confidence in the financial sector has plummeted and something that big will take decades to recover fully, plus in the UK, the conservatives look the most likley to get in power and they will raise interest rates to something like 10% New Conservatives will want their pint of blood

[fukuda 351]

you don't think people won't accept lower pay? if you are offered the choice of lower pay and redundancy you are going to go for lower pay unless you're ready for retirement and actually have a pension.quote>

Or leave the country as many do in other places

and don't think "oh, i'll just go and get another job" because that's highly unlikley. jobs in general are VERY hard to get even the cleaning jobs.quote>

really? ._.

[belfastuniguy 18]

ummm, do you think that developing countries have less able workers?, if you think your jobs are safe because you are in an office or scientific job then you should remember that developing countries have smart people too and they won't all want to move here. all ends of employment are open to foreign competition.quote>

My current job is incredibly secure, I just got promoted with a fabulous pay rise. So I'm happy. My 'career' will just as secure I can assure you.

jobs in general are VERY hard to get even the cleaning jobs. dole money is going to go down because of more people on it and that is going to make people more reluctant to go into unemployment if they can avoid itquote>

Actually they're not. There are still a hell of a lot of job vacancies in the UK at the minute. People here just tend to be incredibly fussy and would rather sit on their arse sponging off taxes than do jobs they believe they are too good for.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Kryptowhite

Absolutely, "green" "sustainable" whatever you want to call it is booming here in america, if i'm right its the fastest growing industry in America. Im sure cities like pittsburg cleveland and detroit would love to see america return to some industry quote>

Originally posted by: sneakeypete

Sustaniable is such a horrible word, especially when its coupled with growth.quote>

The only thing 'sustainable' is unemployment and budget cuts. The politicians are telling people the 'green' jobs will be American jobs. BS!

China is already way ahead of us on small wind turbine tech, at least till the lead parts fly off and hit some little kid. The photovoltaic cell industry can't wait to jump on a boat for China because of labor costs. Much of the stimulus pork went to construction and public works projects, all fueled with diesel machinery and plugged into the grid. I still see a lot of truth to "Green is the new Red", and the lies our 'leaders' are telling the populace are camouflaging the 'Red' with 'Green'.

[sneakeypete 16]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: sneakeypete

Sustaniable is such a horrible word, especially when its coupled with growth.quote>

How so?

quote>

Because space, resources, all that, is finite. "sustainable" means something that can be sustained forever, yet if growth continues on forever, we'll run out of space eventually.

Sustainable growth is a lie.

[Gridlock 9]

Yup Sustainable growth is mathematically impossible .

Markets are going up as the US gov is throwing billions at it . If you can out sell the US gov the market would come back down again.

My sims in New Haven brainwashed by education , allow them to own a lil something they become totaly obedient ,Professionals are the most productive slaves by far .

Most of the guru s on mainstream have something to sell you ,i take very little notice of mainstream .

This is interesting link to get a picture of the economy

AAR Reports Rail Traffic Continues to Reflect the Down Economy

http://www.aar.org/NewsAndEvents/PressReleases/2009/08_WTR/081309_RailTrafficReport.aspx

Also imho the economy can never fully recover Economics wont let it .

[Ntq€310 1]

economies shift and change and grow and decline in multiple and diffrent areas. Personally, im for industrial strenth in the homeland. Since most strong economies have been based on industrial strength. However, in over free-tradish global economics, we can not compete, and in some cases, we are even hurting ourselves further through tax codes and unions and such. Through the death of our industrial sector, we may see new economic sectors and industry appear to take it's place, but whether or not that makes the economy stronger remains to be seen.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Will industry in the developing world make a comeback?

My answer to this question is simple: it will not come back in any long-term way unless the currency imbalance between developed and developing countries is corrected in some way. The reason that industry moved to developing countries is their weak currencies, which enables each dollar to be worth more to the workers in, for example, China than the US.

This currency imbalance can be corrected in three ways:

- A rapidly deprecating USD and/or CAD

- Strengthining currencies in the developing countries

- Institution of tariffs by the US to offset the weak currency incentive

The third option is the least dangerous and best in my view, but the enactment of this option is prevented by the rampant free trade ideology in North America. Nevertheless, it is the best option to provide these companies an incentive to get back to North America. If North American labour is made by tariffs cheaper than Chinese labor, they'll come back here like a shot.

Under this regime, North Americans will not, and in any case should not, give up and accept a lower standard of living. Many manufacturing jobs are in fact good jobs, and having a manufacturing base, as opposed to having 3/4 of GDP being consumption, makes for a more stable economy.

[saltandsauce 0]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

jobs in general are VERY hard to get even the cleaning jobs. dole money is going to go down because of more people on it and that is going to make people more reluctant to go into unemployment if they can avoid itquote>

Actually they're not. There are still a hell of a lot of job vacancies in the UK at the minute. People here just tend to be incredibly fussy and would rather sit on their arse sponging off taxes than do jobs they believe they are too good for.

quote>

considering i have failed catastrophically at my highers, i have applied for every job available (as i have no alternative and am ineligable for unemployment benefits), and have been turned down for all of them because i'm not "experienced" in using a mop. One must require a university degree for shelf stacking or toilet unblocking.

good for you getting a big fat pay rise, i'm curious as to what your job is? (i know i won't get it since i can't go to university)

[TekindusT 3,809]

In fact, all our countries have what I call "Experience Needed" Problem... You need any experience for absolutely all jobs you apply for. But if it is your first job, you don't have experience in anything (at least if you haven't worked illegaly before, of course) and this prevents you of getting the job so you will remain unemployed until you have a degree in something. It's the fish that tries to bite its tail.

[Jay Ess 15]

Originally posted by: Kryptowhite

Absolutely, "green" "sustainable" whatever you want to call it is booming here in america, if i'm right its the fastest growing industry in America. Im sure cities like pittsburg cleveland and detroit would love to see america return to some industry

quote>

Unfortunately, Detroit's industrial economy is what made it grow, but made it crash to the ground later on. Industrial communities in the metropolitian area such as Madison Heights, Ferndale and Highland Park are dying because the factories can not accomodate to the workers and must cut jobs. What Detroiters need is a higher influence of technological and law enforcement jobs. That way, wages will go up, and more people will be cassed into staying off the path of crime.

Originally posted by: Gridlock

Yup Sustainable growth is mathematically impossible . quote>

Don't be so doubtful. If you can't build out, build up

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

Under this regime, North Americans will not, and in any case should not, give up and accept a lower standard of living. Many manufacturing jobs are in fact good jobs, and having a manufacturing base, as opposed to having 3/4 of GDP being consumption, makes for a more stable economy.

quote>

Absolutely. Being a skilled tradesman in a manufacturing category has been good to me in a time when tech and white-collar jobs are disappearing rapidly. My particular trade is perenially short of qualified workers, and in the past 10 years I haven't had much trouble finding someone who needs my qualifications (with minor exceptions). Additionally, my current employer supplies a great deal of equipment to Europe and Asia, so their growth in petrochemical and nuclear applications has been a godsend. Strangely, our subsidiaries in those regions have been suffering while the parent company seems to have dodged an economic bullet to a large degree.

On a side note, I'm actually overqualified to ply my trade at an auto manufacturer; no $40/hour with extreme benefits for me.

[sneakeypete 16]

Originally posted by: colonel1

Originally posted by: Gridlock

Yup Sustainable growth is mathematically impossible . quote>

Don't be so doubtful. If you can't build out, build up

quote>

Mathematically impossible means its mathamatically impossibe. The sky is the limit... and we'd reach it eventually!

[chasespncr 4]

the way i see it the devoloping countries are going to get rich and they will in turn become consumers just like the U.S....that may eventually make the united states competetive but for now i am unsure about the U.S........but its still the best country in the world =p

[Gridlock 9]

Imho we in a constant cycle of boom and bust ,Economics is insane.

In fact the whole system is insane , it demands we take more from the earth every year , turn it into even more things. faster , take ,make and throw away .The more successful they system is the faster it destroys the planet , it assumes we will always discover new energy and new deposits of existing energies .

We treat animals as mere commodities ,to make as fat as possible,as quick as possible ,on as little food as possible ,every year we condemn millions of animals to a lifetime of pain and suffering in the name of economics.

Its insane that rising house prices are a sign of economic success,when thousands are homeless because they cant afford them .

To support a system that every year turns out more , suicide,homelessnes,drug taking ,alcoholism,stress,pain,fear and suffering.

W ed be in real trouble if this system worked .

[Easy Bakes 253]

Its not just industrial jobs that are not going to come back.

All these banks and insureance compaines that laid off droves of midlevel office works to cut costs are finding out they realy didnt need them. They are getting as much work done as before with 30% less staff.

I guess the remaing workers are not spending as much time on myfacetwitter.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

jobs in general are VERY hard to get even the cleaning jobs. dole money is going to go down because of more people on it and that is going to make people more reluctant to go into unemployment if they can avoid itquote>

Actually they're not. There are still a hell of a lot of job vacancies in the UK at the minute. People here just tend to be incredibly fussy and would rather sit on their arse sponging off taxes than do jobs they believe they are too good for.

quote>

considering i have failed catastrophically at my highers, i have applied for every job available (as i have no alternative and am ineligable for unemployment benefits), and have been turned down for all of them because i'm not "experienced" in using a mop. One must require a university degree for shelf stacking or toilet unblocking.

good for you getting a big fat pay rise, i'm curious as to what your job is? (i know i won't get it since i can't go to university)

quote>

I'm the manager of a Savile Row men's tailoring concession. Business has been very good and we're beating our targets, so I got a pay rise.

I'm only doing that while waiting to join the police. My degree places me on the fast track development and promotion scheme they have.

[saltandsauce 0]

Savile Row? the big posh tailoring street in London, ah yes, i know they are the fastest growing industry since 1867 and are desperate for lots of employees

[belfastuniguy 18]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

Savile Row? the big posh tailoring street in London, ah yes, i know they are the fastest growing industry since 1867 and are desperate for lots of employees

quote>

Yes the posh tailoring place and actually firm I work for has been around since 1771

Premium retail has held ground during the recession and has actually in some sectors experiences growth. I never stated the industry was looking for lots of new staff, with that business its more about quality of staff, not how many you have or need.

I was speaking generally, there are a lot of unfilled job vacancies in the market at the minute. Problem is, people have got fat on benefits and don't believe they will be better off working for a living, Shame really, if they don't want them jobs, we'll have to keep giving them to the immigrants.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

Savile Row? the big posh tailoring street in London, ah yes, i know they are the fastest growing industry since 1867 and are desperate for lots of employees

quote>

Yes the posh tailoring place and actually firm I work for has been around since 1771

Premium retail has held ground during the recession and has actually in some sectors experiences growth. I never stated the industry was looking for lots of new staff, with that business its more about quality of staff, not how many you have or need.

I was speaking generally, there are a lot of unfilled job vacancies in the market at the minute. Problem is, people have got fat on benefits and don't believe they will be better off working for a living, Shame really, if they don't want them jobs, we'll have to keep giving them to the immigrants.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

Savile Row? the big posh tailoring street in London, ah yes, i know they are the fastest growing industry since 1867 and are desperate for lots of employees

quote>

Yes the posh tailoring place and actually firm I work for has been around since 1771

Premium retail has held ground during the recession and has actually in some sectors experiences growth. I never stated the industry was looking for lots of new staff, with that business its more about quality of staff, not how many you have or need.

I was speaking generally, there are a lot of unfilled job vacancies in the market at the minute. Problem is, people have got fat on benefits and don't believe they will be better off working for a living, Shame really, if they don't want them jobs, we'll have to keep giving them to the immigrants.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[belfastuniguy 18]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

Savile Row? the big posh tailoring street in London, ah yes, i know they are the fastest growing industry since 1867 and are desperate for lots of employees

quote>

Yes the posh tailoring place and actually firm I work for has been around since 1771

So, belfastuniguy, where is the free offer to tailor Simtrop members' clothes?  I have some pants that need to be hemmed/cuffed and the waist let out a little bit...  https://community.simtropolis.com/assets/emoticons/4.gif" border="0' alt='4.gif" border="0'>

Barbarossa

quote>

I'd just be measuring, we have someone to do the actual tailoring work

Though I can give you a fabulous discount on a lovely Bespoke suit