The Simtropolis Closet

[Zelgadis 638]

Nothing that society decides is writ in stone. Take Canada and Spain for example.

This discussion is meaningless. Gay people will be able to adopt and will be able to marry in the future. We cannot be stopped. We will not stop until we have full, equal rights.

The only thing society will decide is how long it will take. When the time comes, it will be a non-issue, just like women's suffrage and civil rights.

And I'll hide my sexuality when all straight people hide theirs. No holding hands in public, no more weddings, no more walks in the park with your sweetheart. We can all just skulk around, hiding our love for each other, as if something that we do is gross instead of beautiful.

ISF

[Ded 30]

Date: 7/17/2005 10:49:38 PM Author: subedei

Date: 7/17/2005 10:46:26 PM Author: mentarman ^^^ Um, why? You don't just get to make the rules for the world. Tell us why you believe that and we can have a discussion. Otherwise why are you bothering to post here?

quote>

That is something society decided. As far as posting goes If you all can post pro-gay things and why you think being gay is right then I can counter with why I think its wrong

Subedei

quote>

 

That is like saying that I can post why African Americans deserve Civil rights, and why you think they don't...

[subedei 3]

<---Edited--->

 

Subedei

[mentarman 14]

Date: 7/17/2005 10:49:38 PM Author: subedei

Date: 7/17/2005 10:46:26 PM Author: mentarman ^^^ Um, why? You don't just get to make the rules for the world. Tell us why you believe that and we can have a discussion. Otherwise why are you bothering to post here?

That is something society decided. As far as posting goes If you all can post pro-gay things and why you think being gay is right then I can counter with why I think its wrong

Subedei

 

I don't think you read my post very well. I never suggested you can't counter with why you think it's wrong. In fact, that's what I asked for, because you didn't say *why* you think it's wrong, you just said the equivalent of that's the way it is, because I said so. (Or now, society says so.) People who disagree can have a conversation about something with respect and try to see where the other person is coming from. However, I can't do that when you don't discuss things, you just make proclamations. That suggests to me that you aren't interested in me understanding why you believe what you believe, and that you aren't interested in why I believe what I believe. It then seems pointless to me for you to post in here. It becomes like going to a chat room where people are discussing Harry Potter and saying These books suck, I hate Harry Potter, etc. If you did that (and I cared about Harry Potter, lol), I would ask you *why* you think they aren't good, and we could discuss the issue. If you kept posting such things and didn't want to discuss why you think that, I would assume you weren't there to have a conversation about the topic at hand but for some other purpose.

 

As for your answer, I guess I must have missed the societal vote on that. First of all, in fact, society hasn't decided that because there are a broad range of people and opinions on the subject. There are many people who agree with you, many people who agree with me, and many others that might be more in the middle or more extreme than you or I. So society hasn't decided this issue any more than it's decided the abortion issue, decided who killed JFK or decided whether to leave the toilet seat up or down when done using the toilet.

 

Maybe you mean that we have decided through laws? But in many, many places gay people can and do adopt and raise children. Laws change. Besides, whether something is legal or not is not a good measure of whether it is right or wrong, other than by the standards of the law.

[thatmonkeysim 8]

Date: 7/17/2005 10:47:21 PM
Author: zelgadis
Whoa!

I'll start a flame war if I get involved in this one.

*sounds air raid siren and puts on helmet*

Incoming!

ISF

quote>

i agree with that... that was too much... really explain to us why it is 'stricky hetro' and why just because other people are different that another group of people are better and should have more rights then the group of different people??

hmmm... Nazi Germany anyone??

[subedei 3]

Oh so now your comparing Thousand years of beliefs to Nazi Germany? I guess if we think being Gay is wrong that makes us Nazis?

 

 

Subedei

 

 

Subedei

Date: 7/17/2005 11:06:46 PM Author: thatmonkeysim

Date: 7/17/2005 10:47:21 PM Author: zelgadis Whoa!&nbsp; I'll start a flame war if I get involved in this one.&nbsp; *sounds air raid siren and puts on helmet* Incoming! ISF

quote> i agree with that... that was too much... really explain to us why it is 'stricky hetro' and why just because other people are different that another group of people are better and should have more rights then the group of different people?? hmmm... Nazi Germany anyone??

quote>

[MallowTheCloud 41]

This thread is building so fast it's hard to keep up. But it seems to me that subedei is just trying to start a flame war. He hasn't posted anything rational yet.... only his opinion on the matter.

Like Dereko says in the next post... or another example. Interracial marriage was immoral for thousands of years. Now it's okay. So, because it was immoral for thousands of years, it's okay to think it's wrong now?

[Dereko 0]

I believe anti-semitism is a thousand years beliefs too. That doesn't make it anymore right

[jmusshorn 7]

Okay, if you believe that a person's sexuality and lifestyle should be left in the bedroom, then why is such a big deal being made about this by people who are against it?

 

On the subject of parents, what about a child that has only one parent? How would that child feel about the fact that they have no mother or father, while all the other children did? If anything, it's best for children to have as many positive influences in their lives as possible, man/woman, black/white, gay/straight or anything otherwise.

 

And another thing; you and I apparently have extremely different opinions on what we percieve as gross, as you so eloquently put it. I personally have never truly understood the attraction between a man and a woman. I have yearned for it (because that's what my society told me was correct and moral), but alas I have never found it.

 

I understand my attraction to the same sex, while you do not. I accept your attraction to opposite sex, and embrace your differences from mine. You, on the other hand, choose to alienate and discriminate against people who simply want to love eachother, regardless of their gender. That, in and of itself to me, is gross.

 

~J

[thatmonkeysim 8]

im sorry but i never said that...

i just said that Nazi Germany discriminated again groups of people because they were different...

i respect your beliefs fully but like God says love your fellow man... and i think that includes everyone no matter who they are...

[subedei 3]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:13:01 PM Author: jmusshorn

Okay, if you believe that a person's sexuality and 'lifestyle' should be left in the bedroom, then why is such a big deal being made about this by people who are against it?

On the subject of parents, what about a child that has only one parent? How would that child feel about the fact that they have no mother or father, while all the other children did? If anything, it's best for children to have as many positive influences in their lives as possible, man/woman, black/white, gay/straight or anything otherwise.

And another thing; you and I apparently have extremely different opinions on what we percieve as 'gross', as you so eloquently put it. I personally have never truly understood the attraction between a man and a woman. I have yearned for it (because that's what my society told me was correct and 'moral'), but alas I have never found it.

I understand my attraction to the same sex, while you do not. I accept your attraction to opposite sex, and embrace your differences from mine. You, on the other hand, choose to alienate and discriminate against people who simply want to love eachother, regardless of their gender. That, in and of itself to me, is 'gross'.

~J

[MallowTheCloud 41]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:18:08 PM
Author: subedei
LOL...oh lordie every Gay person I have ran across wants to hit on every guy they can even though they say they are straight. Thats one of my big issues with them and one of the reason Gays get beat up or worse killed. Now i dislike any voilence wether physical or mental towards anyone but lets keep our private lives more private.

Subedei

quote>

Excuse me!?

I've never hit on another guy in my life! You seem to believe whatever negative thing you're told about gay people. I can assure you, if you met me on the street you would not know I was gay.

Every human being has a different way of expressing their sexuality... be they gay or straight. Gay people aren't all the same, just like straight people aren't all the same.

And like someone else said, if gays have to 'keep their private life private' straights should too!

[Zelgadis 638]

EVERY gay person? Keep your flagrant overgeneralizations to yourself, please. There are plenty of slutty heterosexuals too you know.

And your reason why gay people get beat up is exactly the same defense that rapists once used to justify their behavior.

ISF

[mentarman 14]

Why do you think being gay is gross? If it's the physical acts that gross you out, I'd say a couple of first things. First of all, all sex is kinda gross if you think about it. Secondly, being gay is only partly about the physical acts, just like being straight is only partly about the physical acts. It's really about who you love. But of course people don't want to think about it like that, they focus on physical acts they don't like.

I've already told you why I disagree with your argument about protecting the kids from having to be raised by gay people. I don't think it's our place to decide that people we don't agree with shouldn't raise kids, or people who might be oppressed shouldn't be able to have kids. Pretty soon you could be banning all kinds of people from having kids with that kind of argument. What if I decided people who are against gay people having kids shouldn't be able to have kids? Doesn't seem like I should have the right to stop you from having kids, does it? You could apply the oppression/what the kids will face argument to African-Americans, people with disabilities, obese people, etc. Maybe women shouldn't be able to have kids!  First society puts people down, then says they shouldn't have kids because the kids will be put down? lol.

 

I believe it is your right to expose your kids to whoever you want and prevent them from being exposed to who you want. But I see it the same way as if you said you didn't want them around African-Americans or Irish people or Jews.

 

I suspect that your argument comes down to religion or the Bible? If so, that's fine, why don't you just make that clear? Then we would at least be able to understand your beliefs, and I can respect people's beliefs when I disagree with them if I can understand why they believe that. But frankly some of your reasons so far (gay people are gross, etc.) just aren't too logical or compelling as arguments.

 

Date: 7/17/2005 11:18:08 PM Author: subedei

LOL...oh lordie every Gay person I have ran across wants to hit on every guy they can even though they say they are straight. Thats one of my big issues with them and one of the reason Gays get beat up or worse killed. Now i dislike any voilence wether physical or mental towards anyone but lets keep our private lives more private.

Subedei

 

Really? Wow, you must be very attractive.  lol. First of all I bet you know lots of gay people but don't know it, because your view of a gay person is probably that which you said above, running around hitting on all men. Meanwhile they're all around you and you don't know it!

Your knowledge of gay people seems to come solely from stereotypes.

 

So your problems seem to be with gay men. What about lesbians? Are they less gross? They won't hit on you. Should they be able to be scout leaders or parents?

 

What about my cousin who is gay and has a daughter? What do you believe is right in that situation?

[jmusshorn 7]

How do you completely know that there aren't many more gay people that you know that never told you they were gay? Maybe they didn't want to tell you or let on about who they're attracted to. I mean, personally I can't possibly imagine why. Guess some gay people are just weird like that, huh?

 

Personally, I know plenty of gay people. Many of then are extremely well adjusted individuals, who are positively and constructively contributing members of society. They're great people, and they never let on about their homosexuality. They're, as many people would like to say, normal people. Normal, functioning, mentally stable people.

 

On the other hand, some of them aren't. Although, in all my (albeit limited) time on this earth, I must say that the heterosexual group is definitely not a utopian society; all heterosexuals are not perfect either. The fact that you're more critical of homosexuals is perhaps all the more reason that many don't tell anyone; they just let their real love/attractions stew within them for many years, sometimes forever. Although once again, I simply can't understand why some people wouldn't want to tell the others about their homosexuality! It just baffles me.

 

I personally don't hit on other men, thank you. I have standards and manners (not to mention my own morals), and I am very tasteful in my ever-prevalent search for mon ch

[subedei 3]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:21:58 PM Author: zelgadis EVERY gay person?&nbsp; Keep your flagrant overgeneralizations to&nbsp; yourself, please.&nbsp; There are plenty of slutty heterosexuals too you know. And your reason why gay people get beat up is exactly the same defense that rapists once used to justify their behavior. ISF

quote>

 

 

 Not really an over generalization there Zeg but an actually observation  Judging from your response i guess I hit on some truth there.

 

 

 

Subedei

[MallowTheCloud 41]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:29:06 PM
Author: subedei
Not really an over generalization there Zeg but an actually observation Judging from your response i guess I hit on some truth there.

Subedei

quote>

So you just completely ignored my post?

EDIT: And jmusshorn's as well, I see.

You know, I believe it was ephorex that came in here and told us politely why he didn't agree with homosexuality. I respect him for his frendliness and his civility.

You on the other hand are making generalizations and giving opinions without backing up anything. I hope this can be resolved...

[jmusshorn 7]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:30:45 PM Author: MallowTheCloud

Date: 7/17/2005 11:29:06 PM Author: subedei Not really an over generalization there Zeg but an actually observation&nbsp; Judging from your response i guess I hit on some truth there. Subedei

So you just completely ignored my post?

 

Indeed. He ignored mine as well.

 

I believe that mallow is right in the sense that subedei simply seems to be starting a flame war.

 

There is no meat to the arguement that you are trying to pose, subedei.

 

When your main arguement is well when you think about it it's just plain gross, you don't really have valid grounds to start a debate (or a flame war, for that matter). I'm sorry.

 

~J

[masher 3]

If I find a thread that is offensive to me ,or my beliefs, I just ignore it....
This thread was so cool and so dramma-free until subedei showed up...close it now

[Zelgadis 638]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:29:06 PM
Author: subedei

Not really an over generalization there Zeg but an actually observation Judging from your response i guess I hit on some truth there.

Subedei

quote>

Yep, you got me, subedei. I'm a rampaging slut. And so is my fiance. We cheat on each other all the time.

Now stop patronizing us.

ISF

[subedei 3]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:30:45 PM Author: MallowTheCloud

Date: 7/17/2005 11:29:06 PM Author: subedei Not really an over generalization there Zeg but an actually observation&nbsp; Judging from your response i guess I hit on some truth there. Subedei

quote> So you just completely ignored my post? EDIT: And jmusshorn's as well, I see.

quote>

 

 No I did not ignore it and yes I would know you were gay if i walked by you in the street. Gays are easily reconized/

 

 

Subedei

[MallowTheCloud 41]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:35:31 PM
Author: subedei
No I did not ignore it and yes I would know you were gay if i walked by you in the street. Gays are easily reconized/

Subedei

quote>

No, you wouldn't. And I don't appreciate being generalized. It is rude. It is like me saying you must be stupid, because all people who's screen name begins with s are stupid. It has no basis in reality, is just an opinion, and is obviously not true.

As zelgadis said, you are patronizing me. You are patronizing the entire gay community. Please, stop trying to start a flame war.

EDIT: As masher said, this thread being closed would not be a bad idea right now. Not that it's fair that one single person putting down an entire group can lead to the thread being closed... but it would probably be best right now.

And as for the posts, I think a moderator should leave these posts here to show just how closed-minded some people can be.

[DuskTrooper 314]

*makes sure no one else is looking*
*sweeps dust into closet*
*tosses old skeleton into closet*
*closes door quietly*
*walks off warily while whistling*

[mentarman 14]

^^^Ack, cough cough. How'd this thread get all dusty?

 

Date: 7/17/2005 11:33:55 PM Author: masher If I find a thread that is offensive to me ,or my beliefs, I just ignore it.... This thread was so cool and so dramma-free until subedei showed up...close it now

I do believe that's what he wants. I've tried to discuss things with him rationally but it is clear he's not reading or choosing to have an actual discussion. Personally I think he's trying to start a flame war to prove that this shouldn't be here in the first place. I've been very calm and logical in my posts but now I think responding to him just furthers that purpose.

 

I for one hope this thread lives.

[Meg 368]

Guys?  Remember:  talk about the issues, not about each other.

[subedei 3]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:39:16 PM Author: mentarman

^^^Ack, cough cough. How'd this thread get all dusty?

Date: 7/17/2005 11:33:55 PM Author: masher If I find a thread that is offensive to me ,or my beliefs, I just ignore it.... This thread was so cool and so dramma-free until subedei showed up...close it now

I do believe that's what he wants. I've tried to discuss things with him rationally but it is clear he's not reading or choosing to have an actual discussion. Personally I think he's trying to start a flame war to prove that this shouldn't be here in the first place. I've been very calm and logical in my posts but now I think responding to him just furthers that purpose.

I for one hope this thread lives.

quote>

 

 No i am not trying to start a flame war but I can if you want one. I simply believe this does not belong here.  have someone create a private forum for this as a thread may offend people but I guess you gays dont care who you offend as long as you get your little opinions in.

 

 

Subedei

[MallowTheCloud 41]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:43:19 PM
Author: subedei
No i am not trying to start a flame war but I can if you want one. I simply believe this does not belong here. have someone create a private forum for this as a thread may offend people but I guess you gays dont care who you offend as long as you get your little opinions in.

Subedei

quote>

So the truth comes out. You just want this thread closed.

Well, in that case, I make a movement that everyone here ignore any further posts by subedei in this thread. If you agree, say aye.

[Zelgadis 638]

I agree with Mentarman and Mallowthecloud. Aye! I shouldn't have gotten involved with this, but I did. I'm stopping now so as not to give anymore satisfaction to those who would poop in our petunias.

Anyway, kudos to jmusshorn, mentarman, mallowthecloud, and thatmonkeysim for your eloquent responses. Let us all be proud of who we are, gay, straight, or otherwise!

ISF

[jmusshorn 7]

Date: 7/17/2005 11:35:31 PM Author: subedei

Gays are easily reconized/

Subedei

 

 Ah, I agree completely with mallow on this.

 

Please, don't generalize me. I maybe gay, and I maybe white, but I am SO much more than that.

 

I'm not saying that I'm a complicated deep teen or anything, but sheesh. Generalizations like the ones you are making simply come off as insulting.

 

Seriously, don't anyone else feed the flame. I mean, look at the avatar; it's flaming!

 

Wait... Are you flaming, subedei? It's a perfectly good assumption to make based on your methods of classifying people.

 

~J

[masher 3]

The only semi-logical excuse he could give for his possition ,which almost reach stupidity and ignorance levels, is that he has very strong morals......
Like hello...ephorex also has that type of morals but he did not start attacking our way our life as subedei did...

 

<---Edited--->