Georgia and Russia basically at war

[Ecvi 0]

pnorrell

I Translate all and it is fine without the translator, and here to write to have with its help to my regret you far be what normally to judge a situation. The western means of mass media, awfully deform the information, however and we say lies the same) a little But to make such statements. ?????? simple things, and thinking that more cleverly you are not present, silly. And here in a theme article In the USA George Bush the American exporters ask more cautiously concerning Russia 22:56 "Vesti.Ru" to be interested in development of trade with Russia and ask George Bush's administration to be more cautious concerning Russia. It was declared on Thursday by the president of National board on international trade Bill Rajnh.

[Yoman3 5]

Originally posted by: pnorrell

Originally posted by: Ecvi

Mark my words - there will be more fighting in Chechnya within our lifetimes. Kadyrov and Putin have just negotiated a break, which serves them both at the moment. A new generation of Chechen boys will grow up hating Russia just as much as their fathers and, when they're able to fire a gun, it wil all start again. Also, I am quite sure there are people in Washington and in London and in Riyad who are discussing ways to pour fuel on that fire in the coming years.

quote>

Riyadh maybe, even probably, but not London & Washington, Chechnya was a hotbed of radical Muslims during the wars, and well that topic isn't too popular in those cities atm

[pnorrell 4]

True, but don't forget the CIA sold arms to Iran in the '80s and then used the money, together with proceeds from cocaine trafficking, to finance the Contra rebels in Nicaragua. I wouldn't put anything past them, even with the current "war on terror" priority.

[belfastuniguy 18]

1 Russia did not attack Georgia as it is written in a press. And Georgia has attacked Southern Osetijuju

2 Rosijsky armies did not interfere on territory of Georgia, only clearing of a zone of peacemakers.

3 fact of destruction the Ossetin, was and is photographed by the Georgian military men. And the Russian Federation protected the citizens

4 Recognition of Kosovo, it is more illegal than the recognition of Ossetia and Abkhazia)

5 West will make nothing Rosii, only conversations.

6 United Nations, OSCE, big 8 - concourse of doll politicians which can make nothing)

7 in 2-3 months will pass all, do not worry.

8 and the Russian Federation frankly spits on the western countries)))

quote>

How rather hilarious.....yet at the same time ridiculous bull.

1. Georgia attacked South. Os. NOT RUSSIA. However Russia then decicded to invade Georgia, bomb towns in Georgia proper, bomb military and communication targets in GEORGIA, occupy and still occupy the port of Poti.

2. See above

4. Incorrect.

5. The west may not use miltary force, but don't be s secure in the fact we will just make talk of Russia in the coming months. Russia is in for a rather rough patch And about time. Lets hope it starts with removal from the G8 and blocking of WTO Membership

7. Don't be so sure about that.

8. Of course it does......YET Russia depends on the west to keep its economy oiled with cash though sales of gas to Europe. If we could get the gas elsewhere, we would and Russia's economy would not be so great.

[fukuda 351]

I never said it was. Try not to read more into my comments than what I say. If I say "in particular", then I am automatically setting a distinction. Someone who is not a Russophile is not automatically a Russophobe. Many people don't give a hoot either way.quote>

It was meant to be taken with a grain of salt, but well it failed.

I see indeed comments with a pro-russian bias and comments with an anti-russian bias but ,excepting some native members, both kinds of comments are biased more or less the same amount to a direction, and it doesn't make the anti-russian biased people russophobes, and it's obvious that russian members will be russophiles, lol.

What happened was a business deal between Kadyrov and his father and Putin - something like "you stay loyal to Russia and we'll allow you to do whatever you want in Chechnya." With so much of the population dead or in exile, it was not a difficult matter for Kadyrov to then put together a sham referendum to validate the deal - buying votes with cash or through intimidation of the few remaining, exhausted and desperately poor people there.quote>

Agreed.

Riyadh maybe, even probably, but not London & Washington, Chechnya was a hotbed of radical Muslims during the wars, and well that topic isn't too popular in those cities atmquote>

We support anyone that comes in handy, look at Riyadh itself, it's also a hotbed of radical muslims and we support them.

[Yoman3 5]

Riyadh is hardly a hotbed of radical Islam. I doubt they like the west sure, but they like our money. I mean yes there are those who carried out those attacks in the 2001-2003 period. But since then Saudi Arabia has very effiectivly cracked down on them, combining tough measures with reeducation (not gulag reeducation, actual reeducation).

[pnorrell 4]

Another day in Russia, another dead journalist... This one in a pretty sensitive area, however. Some gasoline for that fire, anyone?

---

Deputy says Russian police kill Web site owner

18 minutes ago

MOSCOW - The owner of an independent Web site critical of authorities was shot and killed Sunday by police in a volatile province in southern Russia, his colleague said.

Police arrested Ingushetiya.ru owner Magomed Yevloyev on Sunday, taking him off a plane that had just landed in Ingushetia province near Chechnya, said the site's deputy editor, Ruslan Khautiyev.

Police whisked Yevloyev away in a car and later dumped him on the road with a gunshot wound in the head, Khautiyev said. He said Yevloyev died in a hospital shortly afterward.

In Moscow, Investigative Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin said in a statement that Yevloyev was detained by police and died in an "incident" while being taken to police headquarters for an interrogation. Markin did not elaborate, saying that a check to clarify the circumstances of Yevloyev's death had begun. The committee is under the Prosecutor General's office.

Yevloyev has angered regional authorities with bold criticism of police treatment of civilians in the region. A court in June ordered him to shut his site on charges of spreading "extremist" statements, but it reappeared under a different name.

Khautiyev said that Yevloyev arrived in Ingushetia from Moscow on Sunday on the same plane with regional President Murat Zyazikov. Police blocked the jet on the runway after it landed in Ingushetia's provincial capital, Magas, entered the plane and took Yevloyev out.

Yevloyev's death is likely to further stir up passions in Ingushetia, which has been plagued by frequent raids and ambushes against federal forces and local authorities. Government critics attribute the attacks to anger fueled by abductions, beatings, unlawful arrests and killings of suspects by government forces and local allied paramilitaries.

Many in Ingushetia are intensely unhappy with Zyazikov, a former KGB officer and a close ally of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

Immediately after Yevloyev's detention, his Web site urged Ingushetia's residents to gather outside the headquarters of a leading opposition group.

[Odainsaker 2,137]

Time to distribute Georgian passports to unhappy residents of Ingushetia. While we're at it, how about repatriation of ethnically-cleansed Japanese civilians back to their homes on the disputed Kurile Islands? And just how long till Chechnya rekindles? Russia often talks about the West releasing the genie from the bottle in Kosovo...no doubt Russia likely perceives it that way because much of that smoldering genie waiting to burst out actually lurks within Russia and its sphere. Just ask mighty Yugoslavia about the happy blowback of setting ethnic enclaves against each other to serve imperial politics.

[Yeah_Right 2]

i do not know what to say

[belfastuniguy 18]

EU suspends talks on Russia pact

Mr Sarkozy said the EU had to re-examine its relationship with Russia

European Union leaders have agreed to suspend talks on a new partnership agreement with Moscow until Russian troops have withdrawn from Georgia.

EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said it was clear it could not "continue as if nothing had happened", after an emergency summit in Brussels.

The EU also condemned Russia's move to recognise the independence of Georgia's regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Russia said the talks suspension had damaged the credibility of the bloc.

"It is more of a self-punishment for the European Union because this does not improve the EU's credibility as a negotiating partner," Russia's envoy to the EU, Vladimir Chizhov, said.

With the crisis in Georgia, relations between the EU and Russia have reached a crossroads EU Council statement Conclusions of the Extraordinary European Council (88KB)

Earlier, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warned the EU and the US that further support for Georgia would be a "historic" mistake.

Mr Lavrov also called for an embargo on arms supplies to Tbilisi until a different government was in place there.

The EU's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, meanwhile said it was prepared to send hundreds of civilian monitors to Georgia to check if Russia was abiding by the EU-brokered ceasefire agreement.

Fighting between Russia and Georgia began on 7 August after the Georgian military tried to retake South Ossetia by force.

Russian forces launched a counter-attack and the conflict ended with the ejection of Georgian troops from South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

'Gravely concerned'

Speaking after EU leaders met in Brussels to discuss the crisis, Mr Barroso and French President Nicolas Sarkozy announced they had agreed to postpone talks on an EU-Russia partnership deal.

He said that after the Russian invasion of Georgia, Nato membership was no longer a cost-free option Europe Editor Mark Mardell On the cusp of history? EU's show of unity

The timing of the talks, originally scheduled for mid-September, would depend on Russian forces moving back to their pre-7 August positions, he added.

Mr Sarkozy, whose country is the current holder of the EU presidency, said the crisis meant the bloc had to re-examine its relationship with Russia.

"The EU would welcome a real partnership with Russia, which is in the interests of all, but you have to be two to have a partnership," he said.

The French president also announced that he would visit Moscow on Monday along with Mr Barroso and EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana for a "crucial" meeting with the Russian government.

A joint statement from the EU summit said the European Council was gravely concerned by the "disproportionate reaction of Russia" in Georgia, and called on other states not to follow Russia's lead by recognising the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

"We are convinced that it is in Russia's own interest not to isolate itself from Europe," it added.

Georgians are holding rallies in Tbilisi and in other European capitals

There was also a strong signal of support for Georgia, with EU-wide backing for a donors' conference for reconstruction, the promise of a free trade area and fewer travel restrictions on its citizens.

To coincide with the summit, Georgians held several rallies across their country and in other European capitals, at which they called for further Western support and assistance.

President Mikhail Saakashvili told a crowd of thousands in Tbilisi's Freedom Square that Georgia was "united as never before" and urged EU leaders not to give up in the face of Russian "aggression".

'Responsible state'

Earlier, Mr Lavrov warned the US and its allies that supporting President Saakashvili would be a historic mistake, and called for an arms embargo "while a different government turns Georgia into a normal state".

Dmitry Medvedev warned Moscow would retaliate against any sanctions

"To protect the region from the recurrence of violence, Russia will continue taking measures to punish the guilty, so that this regime is never able to do evil," he said.

Speaking in Moscow, Mr Lavrov said Russia had returned to the world stage as a responsible state which could defend its citizens.

Mr Lavrov's comments follow Mr Medvedev's redefining of Russia's foreign policy principles.

Russia, the Kremlin leader declared, would no longer accept a situation whereby a single country, like the US, sought global domination.

Mr Medvedev also pledged to defend the lives and dignity of Russian citizens, wherever they are located.

He made it clear that there were parts of the world where Russia sees itself as having privileged interests.quote>

[FreewayofFlight 41]

Isn't this whole issue eerily reminiscent of the catalysts of World War II, when Nazi Germany 'annexed' Rhineland, which was part of Czechoslovakia? I'm not saying that a major war is brewing, but the ingrediants are on the shelves. I think this whole situation should send up red flags at the U.N. and E.U.

[Yeah_Right 2]

no, USA is just adding fuel to the fire.

Just an excuse to attack Russia.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[belfastuniguy 18]

no, USA is just adding fuel to the fire.

Just an excuse to attack Russia.quote>

YEAH OBVIOUSLY!!

I think you should reduce your intake of Putin-and-Russia-are-the-almighty pills.

If you were more informed you would actually realise that the EU are the ones bringing about the harshest sanctions on Russia. At the minute they are dependent on Russia pulling troops back to the pre-conflict date. However, they are still tougher than any sanctions America may impose...for the minute anyway.

[MrWacko 0]

The EU is to dependent on Russian imports to do anything of serious significance. They can annoy Russia by blocking membership into key world organizations, and stall or shut down various talks, but in the end, the EU can't do anything. Should oil and gas prices go back down to, say, 1990's levels (unlikely at best), the EU could consider doing something more, but until the EU either reduces its oil and gas imports, or finds new sellers, it can't do anything.

As for all the endless talk about military action, that won't happen. The Russian leadership would have to be about ten times stupider than they already are to even consider attacking a NATO or EU country. It's possible there could be escalation in Georgia, but the Russians risk alienating what few friends they have left in the Caucus and Central Asia.

[Yoman3 5]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

no, USA is just adding fuel to the fire.

Just an excuse to attack Russia.quote>

YEAH OBVIOUSLY!!

I think you should reduce your intake of Putin-and-Russia-are-the-almighty pills.

If you were more informed you would actually realise that the EU are the ones bringing about the harshest sanctions on Russia. At the minute they are dependent on Russia pulling troops back to the pre-conflict date. However, they are still tougher than any sanctions America may impose...for the minute anyway.quote>

I really don't think the Russians give a rats ass about the EU "Sanctions" and the US is too busy elsewhere and needs Russia's cooperation on things like Iran.

[Micah 16]

Please talk about the topic and not each other. Thanks.

[belfastuniguy 18]

The EU is to dependent on Russian imports to do anything of serious significance.quote>

Correction. Some EU member states are heavily dependent on Russian energy...not all.

Also, Russia is very well aware of the fact they too NEED Europe. It is European investment from companies and funds as well as the money being chanelled into Russia for their oil and gas that means Russia will not jack **** to really annoy European nations.

[justintime 8]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

1 Russia did not attack Georgia as it is written in a press. And Georgia has attacked Southern Osetijuju

2 Rosijsky armies did not interfere on territory of Georgia, only clearing of a zone of peacemakers.

3 fact of destruction the Ossetin, was and is photographed by the Georgian military men. And the Russian Federation protected the citizens

4 Recognition of Kosovo, it is more illegal than the recognition of Ossetia and Abkhazia)

5 West will make nothing Rosii, only conversations.

6 United Nations, OSCE, big 8 - concourse of doll politicians which can make nothing)

7 in 2-3 months will pass all, do not worry.

8 and the Russian Federation frankly spits on the western countries)))

quote>

How rather hilarious.....yet at the same time ridiculous bull.

1. Georgia attacked South. Os. NOT RUSSIA. However Russia then decicded to invade Georgia, bomb towns in Georgia proper, bomb military and communication targets in GEORGIA, occupy and still occupy the port of Poti.

2. See above

4. Incorrect.

5. The west may not use miltary force, but don't be s secure in the fact we will just make talk of Russia in the coming months. Russia is in for a rather rough patch And about time. Lets hope it starts with removal from the G8 and blocking of WTO Membership

7. Don't be so sure about that.

8. Of course it does......YET Russia depends on the west to keep its economy oiled with cash though sales of gas to Europe. If we could get the gas elsewhere, we would and Russia's economy would not be so great.quote>

1. & 2. Georgia was under Agreement with Russia to not use military force to take over South Ossetia becase of the 1991–1992 South Ossetian war becuase Russia was a third Party then, and was not apart of that conflict, and acted as NATO did in Kosovo, so when Georgia attacked Ossetia, they broke the agreement, and Russia acted.

 

also, " invade Georgia, bomb towns in Georgia proper, bomb military and communication targets " what the hell are you on about, since when in the history of war do you not bomb Military targets just becuase they are outside of the conflict zone? that's like saying that simply becuase We have a Air Base in Kuwait, if we invade Iran, they shouldn't bomb it.

Also, During the 1999 NATO mouth long bombing of Serbia, they hit Both Civilian, and Military targets in Serbia Proper even though Serbia was attacking Kosovo.

3. This is proof that they broke the agreement, the Georgian Military was not allowed to mount any kind of offensive what so ever into South Ossetia under the 1992 Agreement

4. Kosobo was Apart of Yugoslavia -> Serbia (legally) before the NATO decided to step in to stop the Yugoslav -> Serbian offensive, South Ossetia was Apart of Georgia (legally) before Russia stepped in to stop the Georgian offensive

5. Why would we Remove them from the G8, and block them from WTO? What would that do other then Create a second Cold War? That's like saying we should Remove the United States from the G8 and WTO for invading Iraq.

6. Because they lack a Spine to do anything becuase they fear that they may offend someone, and the fact that

7. I'm pretty sure that it will pass since Georgia is in no place to do anything what so ever

8. They don't have to sell anything to anyone they don't like, hell, they could simply sell the Oil to China, and Kazakhstan if they wanted to.

Also, Russia does spit on the E.U., they sell 45% of their oil exports to Europe, they can Cut that off anytime now, and NATO or the E.U. can do anything about it.

[Yeah_Right 2]

USA has recently built missile turrets in poland, and has sent defence ship to georgia.

USA basically has a front row seat on the EU.

Mutuly Assured Destruction still exists. sorry for spelling

russian's economy is not so great lol.

people are unhappy because they read stories like the small ant against the big foot.

and how the ant is helpless, (story from my mum lol), but something happens like the ant asks for help or something and then eventually tip over the foot.

in this case the foot is russia and and is georgia.

and i do not mean we are going to crush georgia, just an example of what people are thinking.

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[hawkpride147 1]

yes we built a missile DEFENSE base in poland. there were maps provided in either this thread or the russia threatens to invade poland thread that show why the base was placed there. we are currently more concerned with the possibility of iran attacking western europe and the united states. thus we built a base in poland on the arc line that the missile would have to take to hit those targets. russia just happpens to be right next to that line. a COAST GUARD ship is not a defense ship and the ship was loaded with AID SUPPLIES.

[belfastuniguy 18]

in this case the foot is russia and and is georgia.

and i do not mean we are going to crush georgia, just an example of what people are thinking. quote>

Oh please...

Lets see how brave the 'foot' is when Georgia becomes a member of NATO.

[justintime 8]

It's nice to know that most of you want a Nuclear War between Russia, and N.A.T.O.

Originally posted by: hawkpride147 yes we built a missile DEFENSE base in poland. there were maps provided in either this thread or the russia threatens to invade poland thread that show why the base was placed there. we are currently more concerned with the possibility of Iran attacking western Europe and the united states. thus we built a base in poland on the arc line that the missile would have to take to hit those targets. Russia just happens to be right next to that line.quote>

Poland is in North-east Central Europe, wouldn't a Missile Base in, say Turkey, or Azerbaijan be a Better choice? And hell, they can barely hit The Ukraine or Bulgaria, let alone Poland or even Italy.

If the Iranians really wanted to hit Europe if they ever make a missile with the range, all they have to do is fire them from Ahvaz to bypass the sheild

Originally posted by: hawkpride147a COAST GUARD ship is not a defense ship and the ship was loaded with AID SUPPLIES.quote>

That Coast Guard ship (A Medium Endurance Cutter) has a 76 mm Turret, and a couple of mounted Guns

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

in this case the foot is russia and and is georgia.

and i do not mean we are going to crush georgia, just an example of what people are thinking. quote>

Oh please...

Lets see how brave the 'foot' is when Georgia becomes a member of NATO.quote>

You mean when it could have become apart of NATO, at this point in time, it's highly unlikely they are going to be allowed to join.

Also, the 'foot' still has Nuclear weapons, and has just finished Testing on Iranian Missile defense shield Proof TOPOL-M ICBM.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: justintime

If the Iranians really wanted to hit Europe if they ever make a missile with the range, all they have to do is fire them from Ahvaz to bypass the sheild quote>

What if they really wanted to hit the US, which is what this shield is supposed to protect? Fireing them from the Ahvaz region wouldn't help them, as it still has to go across Poland. Poland is just a great spot to protect the US from Iran--try to draw some lines for yourself.

[Yoman3 5]

Originally posted by: justintime

That Coast Guard ship (A Medium Endurance Cutter) has a 76 mm Turret, and a couple of mounted Guns

quote>

You really think that the Cutter was sent to challenge the Russian Black Sea Fleet? The longest range weapon on the Dallas is the 76mm gun, that can fire only a few miles. The SS-N-12 Sandbox missiles that are on the Moskva have a range of 550 km and are designed to kill carriers, now, who do you think would win?

[hawkpride147 1]

@ justintime...the USCG does not carry enough ammunition for battle. It only carries enough to be able to defend itself against much smaller vessels...if the US wanted to fight, we would send a battleship, or a carrier. not a cutter.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Georgia attack is 'Russia's 9/11'

Are Russian troops in Georgia getting ready to leave?

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has described Georgia's assault on South Ossetia as Russia's 9/11.

He said the world had learnt lessons from the attacks in the US on 11 September 2001 and hoped the same would happen after events in the Caucasus.

Reports say Russian troops are showing signs of preparing to pull back from inside Georgia.

This is in line with a ceasefire deal brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Monday.

However, a Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman cast doubt on the preparations, saying: "There has been no sign of a withdrawal."

'Changed world'

Mr Medvedev was speaking to a group of foreign policy experts when he likened events in South Ossetia last month to the attacks on New York and Washington in 2001.

"Russia has zones where it has its interests. It is senseless to deny this, because we will defend our interests and the interests of Russian citizens," he said.

"The world has changed and it occurred to me that 8 August 2008 has become for Russia as 11 September 2001 for the United States. This is an accurate comparison corresponding to Russian realities.

Mr Medvedev said he hoped lessons would be learned from August's events

"Humankind has drawn lessons from 11 September tragedy and other tragic events. I would like the world to draw lessons also from these events [in South Ossetia]."

Russia had not sought a war, Mr Medvedev said, blaming both Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili and US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who he accused of fuelling Georgian belligerence.

But the conflict had shown that the balance of power in the world was out of date, he said, and from now on Russia would defend its interests wherever they were.

Nato membership for Georgia was completely unacceptable, he went on. But even if Georgia had been embarked on such a path, Russia would still not have hesitated to attack.

In terms of the future, a lot depended on how Russia was treated by the West. But Mr Medvedev played down fears that the crisis had caused a deep rift between the two, saying: "We don't need this."

Talks collapse?

Tensions have been high since Russian troops entered Georgia on 7 August, after responding to Georgian attempts to reassert its control in the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

Russia however agreed to pull back its troops from Georgia after the meeting with Mr Sarkozy, although it intends to keep its forces in South Ossetia and the other breakaway region, Abkhazia.

Moscow said it would withdraw from Georgia itself once international monitors were in place.

However, one senior Western diplomat was quoted by the Associated Press as saying talks on placing observers with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in South Ossetia and Abkhazia had collapsed.

The official accused Russia of stalling for time in an effort to keep the observers out of both separatist regions.

"It's become clear that Russia doesn't want any agreement. I think they're afraid of what the observers will see," the diplomat said.

Meanwhile, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees said on Friday that 68,000 of an estimated 192,000 people displaced by the fighting in South Ossetia had now returned home.quote>

 

Putin defends Georgia offensive

By Bridget Kendall BBC diplomatic correspondent, Sochi

Putin defends Georgian actions

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has made an impassioned defence of Russia's military intervention in Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia.

Mr Putin accused the Western press of an "immoral and dishonest account of what happened".

He said Russia had had no choice but to intervene following what he alleged was Georgian aggression.

And he went on to dismiss out of hand European criticism of Russian force as "disproportionate".

"What did you want us to do? Wave our penknives in the air and wipe the bloody snot off our noses?" he asked, adding: "When an aggressor comes into your territory, you need to punch him in the face - an aggressor needs to punished."

He added that Russian tanks had, after all, only been 15km from Tbilisi and could easily have taken the Georgian capital and ousted President Mikhail Saakashvilli if they had wanted to.

Mr Putin also accused the US of behaving like the Roman Empire by believing it could pursue its own interests and extending its influence to the Caucasus without regard for Russia's point of view.

"God forbid that we should tread on US toes in its backyard," he said, expressing frustration that the United States seemed to think it was all right to arm Georgia on Russia's border - a move which he repeatedly argued had provoked Georgia to take up military action.

'Anti-Russian hysteria'

On wider relations with the West, he insisted that current tensions did not amount to the start of a new Cold War, and dismissed arguments that Russia might suffer diplomatic or economic isolation because of the crisis.

SOUTH OSSETIA & ABKHAZIA Q&A: Conflict in Georgia Who started the crisis?

But he also said Russia was prepared to work with Western partners and wanted a constructive relationship with the European Union but only if what he called "realities" were taken into account.

Russia, said the prime minister, should be treated as an equal partner and all sides agree on new common rules of behaviour based on international law.

"The problem is not with us," Mr Putin said, "it lies with political groups in the West who use old phobias to whip up anti-Russian hysteria."

However, he warned that tensions between Russia and the EU may well worsen if, as expected, US missiles are deployed in Poland as part of the controversial missile shield.

He said he expected that to be the moment that Russia would reposition its missiles to point at European targets.

"Why have you placed missiles under our nose?" he said, and warned it would ratchet up an extra notch the nuclear arms race in Europe.

UK relations

Mr Putin also indicated that relations with Britain were unlikely to improve while Russian emigres remained in the UK despite Russia's requests to extradite them to stand trial - an apparent reference to the Russian business tycoon Boris Berezovsky and the former Chechen spokesman, Ahmed Zakayev.

Many South Ossetians feel closer to Russia than Georgia

"Why do you allow UK territory to be used a launching pad to fight Russia?" he asked.

"Imagine if we gave sanctuary to armed members of the IRA - that's why its not possible to build normal relations with Britain," he said.

Mr Putin also threw new light on the crisis in South Ossetia.

On 8 August, when he was in Beijing for the start of the Olympic Games, he had spoken to US President George W Bush soon after hearing of the attack by Georgian troops on the South Ossetian capital - but the United States had failed to intervene.

In Beijing, he had already raised the question of Russia recognising Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent territories with the Chinese government, and told them Russia did not expect Chinese support.

This is an interesting comment that suggests Russia was already planning to recognise the two regions from very early on in the crisis.quote>

Russia to keep troops in Georgia

Russian troops will remain in the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali

Russia says it will keep 7,600 troops in Georgia's breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia after withdrawing from the rest of the country.

On Monday, Russia agreed to withdraw its troops from positions within Georgia, taken up during the recent conflict, by mid-October.

The first troops were seen abandoning a checkpoint near Abkhazia, at the Black Sea town of Ganmukhuri, witnesses said.

But Russia says it will set up military bases in both disputed regions.

It also says it has established formal diplomatic ties with their administrations.

The move followed a decision - condemned by the US and EU but defined as "irrevocable" by Moscow - to recognise South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states.

Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said troops were expected to remain in the two regions "for the foreseeable future".

"Russian troops will remain on the territory of South Ossetia and Abkhazia on request of their leaders in parliament," Mr Lavrov said from Moscow.

"They will be there a long time. This is absolutely necessary, so as not to allow a repeat of armed actions," he added.

Mr Lavrov said that both regions should also be able to participate in talks on Georgia scheduled for next month in Geneva with "fully fledged" places.

Russia is expected to sign formal agreements on troop deployment in South Ossetia and Abkhazia over the coming days.

International observers

Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said that some 3,800 men would be positioned in each breakaway region.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had already indicated that Moscow intended to maintain a military presence in the regions, but Mr Serdyukov's statement provides the first specific breakdown of troop numbers.

Russians are present at several checkpoints on Georgian territory

On Monday, Mr Medvedev pledged to withdraw troops from the rest of Georgia on condition that the EU would deploy at least 200 observers, along with 220 other international monitors to ensure the security of the two breakaway regions.

Under the deal, Russia will pull out within 10 days of the deployment of EU monitors.

Already on Tuesday, Russian troops and military vehicles rolled away from their positions at Ganmukhuri, a Black Sea town near the border with Abkhazia.

"It is the first sign of the Russian pull-out from the so-called buffer zones as a result of the 8 September agreement," a Georgian interior ministry spokesman said.

A defence ministry official in Moscow confirmed the move.

"In accordance with the agreements... the defence ministry has begun the dismantling of checkpoints in zones in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," he said, according to Russian state news agency RIA Novosti.

Russian troops are present in both Abkhazia and South Ossetia, as well as in so-called buffer zones around these regions and near the strategic port city of Poti.

Fighting between Russia and Georgia began on 7 August after the Georgian military tried to retake the breakaway region of South Ossetia by force.

Russian forces launched a counter-attack and the conflict ended with the ejection of Georgian troops from both South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Also on Tuesday, South Ossetia's Prosecutor General Taimuraz Khugayev said that investigations had confirmed that more than 500 people had been killed during Georgia's attack last month, according to Russian news agency, Interfax.

Russia initially suggested more than 1,500 people had died in the conflict. Independent observers say they have been unable to confirm such high figures.quote>

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Russians pull out of Georgia port

Russian troops beginning the withdrawal from Poti

Russian troops have withdrawn from the Georgian port of Poti on the country's Black Sea coast.

Trucks and armoured vehicles had left the town and other bases in western Georgia and were seen heading towards the separatist territory of Abkhazia.

Russia has agreed to an EU-backed truce requiring it to withdraw troops from bases inside the undisputed territory of Georgia.

The bases were set up after a five-day war with Georgia in August.

Russian troops are expected to remain in the disputed territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Separately on Saturday, Georgian officials said a policeman had been shot dead near the border with Abkhazia.

Moscow says it has established formal diplomatic ties with the administrations in the two regions, following its "irrevocable" decision to recognise them as independent last month.

See a map of the region

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said earlier this week that Moscow needed to maintain a presence in the regions to ensure security.

Dispute with EU

Early on Saturday, Russian troops stationed at two bases in Poti were seen packing their belongings into vehicles that then set off along the road towards Abkhazia.

Georgian interior ministry official Shota Utiashvili said Russia had "withdrawn completely from Poti", the Associated Press news agency reports.

NEW PEACE MEASURES Russia to close checkpoints between Poti and Senaki within a week Some 200 EU monitors in South Ossetia by 1 October Russian forces to withdraw from undisputed land within 10 days of monitors deploying International talks on the conflict to be held in Geneva on 15 October Q&A: Conflict in Georgia Russia: Potential flashpoints

Much of the Georgian port's naval infrastructure had been destroyed by the Russian military during the fighting.

The Russians were required to withdraw from Poti and from the nearby town of Senaki by Monday, under the terms of a ceasefire deal brokered earlier this week by the EU.

The deal also requires the Russians to complete a full withdrawal from all bases on Georgian territory - except for South Ossetia and Abkhazia - following the planned deployment of EU monitors to the area by 1 October.

Moscow later clashed with the EU over the terms of the deal, saying it had not given EU monitors the right to enter Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

The two regions have had de facto independence since a civil war in the early 1990s, and Moscow has strongly backed their breakaway governments.

Fighting between Russia and Georgia began on 7 August after the Georgian military tried to retake the breakaway region of South Ossetia by force.

Russian forces launched a counter-attack and the conflict ended with the ejection of Georgian troops from both South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Hundreds of people were killed in the fighting and some 200,000 were displaced - most of them Georgians.

Russian forces also set up several bases on Georgian territory outside the separatist regions, in so-called "buffer zones" - a move criticised by Georgia and the EU as a violation of an earlier ceasefire deal.

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