Man beheaded on bus.

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: Voar Tok

A well-crafted and solid argument - even complete with some humor.  Only problem is that my comment had absolutely nothing to do with whether anyone on that bus should have been armed as you so incorrectly assumed.   You said:

The bystanders should have done their duty and played judge, jury and executioner right there and then, instead of locking him in the bus and waiting for the actually responsible authorities.quote>

The point I was making had absolutely nothing to do with whether anyone should have been armed and everything to do with the logic behind this statement.  If someone is attacking you or someone else, provision should be there for making efforts to subdue the attacker with lethal force being a possible last resort if needed.  Regardless of whether anyone really wants to admit it or not, take one quick look at how many people are murdered each year, and there you have how many people who were faced with someone trying to harm them, and the "actually responsible authorities" weren't there in time.  And even the concept of "they can't save everyone" doesn't work, because thousands to millions of people are murdered each year and the "responsible authorities" don't find out about it until after the person is quite dead.quote>

Ah, we're almost getting there.

What you're assuming is that I said the other passengers should stand around twiddiling their thumbs as if it's strictly somebody else's problem. But look at the article's description of how these people reacted to a particularly brutal and sudden amount of violence; They needed time to adjust to the situation, in which they first instinctively looked for their own safety. Rational decisions were not high on their list of priorities.

"He didn't do anything to provoke the guy. The guy just took a knife out and stabbed him, started stabbing him like crazy and cut his head off," said Garnet Caton, 36, a passenger on the Edmonton-to-Winnipeg bus.

"Some people were puking, some people were crying, other people were in shock . . . everybody was running, screaming off the bus."

Caton said the attacker was only on the bus for a brief period of time, after boarding in western Manitoba.

Witnesses described a nightmarish scene inside the bus.

"Everybody got off the bus. Me and a trucker that stopped and the Greyhound driver ran up to the door to maybe see if the guy was still alive or we could help or something like that," Caton told CNN.

"And when we all got up, we saw that the guy was cutting off the guy's head. . . . When he saw us, he came back to the front of the bus, told the driver to shut the door. He pressed the button and the door shut, but it didn't shut in time, and the guy was able to get his knife out and take a swipe at us.quote>

With the nutter "stabbing like crazy" the victim's chances were slim to none from the beginning, and the chance of helping him just as slim.  By the time the passengers had actually taken it all in the victim would have been, as you put it, quite dead.

Once the, still violent, stabber was locked in the bus and inclined to stay there, and it was quite clear the victim was far beyond help, the passengers were no longer in imminent danger and using handguns, or swiss army knives for that matter, would fall less under the category "self-defense" and more under the category "going Rambo". It would have been particularly pointless and dangerous for them to climb back on the bus to try and subdue him, which is where the authorities come into the picture.

[Voar Tok 4]

I agree that there was no chance of saving this guy. A knife that big, along with the "stabbing him like crazy" part would guarantee that he'd be sliced up beyond hope before anyone could have stopped it.

Seeing as how I said it sarcastically, I'd like to point out that I don't think you were advocating that the passengers do nothing and act like it wasn't happening. I'm not saying that they all suck or anything for not immediately leaping up and trying to save the guy rather than running off the bus. They did what they felt they needed to do at the time. That is understandable. The point of everything I was saying though is that the idea that you were espousing about them playing judge, jury, and executioner (sarcastically, as you said it) is wrong. People should have the right to defend themselves, and if necessary, those who can't for whatever reason from someone trying to do them harm. If the only means to save the victim is to cause the death of the assailant, then so be it. The people on the bus did the right thing by keeping him locked up until the police arrived. The victim couldn't be saved. There was no point in trying to go in there and subdue the assailant anymore. So they locked him on the bus and threatened him with makeshift weapons until the cops got there. But had there been a legitimate chance of saving the guy, the use of force, even deadly if necessary (notice that I'm not mentioning the use of a gun - there's a reason for that) should not be something that the law-abiding citizens are forbidden to use when the life of someone innocent can be saved through it.

[JanYpe 17]

Of course that shouldn't be forbidden, I don't see where I said otherwise. I responded to the guy who felt the need to mention that "the Canadian government has disarmed its citizens" by saying that:

1. A handgun inside the bus at the moment itself would have been fairly useless, and would probably have done more harm then good.

and

2. Using a handgun after the fact from outside the bus would have been playing judge, jury and especially executioner, considering there was nobody left in direct danger.

[Voar Tok 4]

OK, then, I believe we have arrived at a consensus.

[Josh6 873]

Wow. Thats crazy.

I heard of a guy on the news that took some poor dudes head off and ate it.

Mabey it was a twisted version of this.

Its a sick world :{}

[your_adress_here 11]

Here's another article on what happened. Some of you that have been following this thread might find it interesting.

Police don't know what prompted vicious bus attack

Updated Thu. Jul. 31 2008 6:51 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Police in Winnipeg said Thursday they do not know what triggered a vicious attack on a Greyhound bus the night before that led to the beheading of a passenger.

Witnesses say a man was stabbed to death and then decapitated in what appears to be a random act of violence on board the bus that was en route to Winnipeg late Wednesday.

At a news conference Thursday afternoon, RCMP Staff Sgt. Steve Colwell said a 40-year-old suspect is in custody and police were preparing to interview him. No charges have been laid.

Colwell would not confirm passenger reports that a man repeatedly stabbed his seat-mate before beheading him.

He said passengers had already left the bus when officers arrived at the scene near Portage la Prairie, Man. He added that police apprehended the suspect when he tried to escape the bus by jumping out a window.

Colwell said the actions of the passengers and driver may have prevented any other attacks from occurring.

"It's not something that happens regularly on a bus," said Colwell. "You're sitting there enjoying your trip and then all of a sudden somebody gets stabbed. I imagine it would be pretty traumatic ... the way they acted was extraordinary."

"They were very brave. They reacted swiftly, calmly in exiting the bus and as a result nobody else was injured."

Shocked witnesses said the victim, described as between the ages of 18 to 20, was sleeping with his head against the window when the attack occurred.

Garnet Caton, who was sitting in front of the victim, heard the commotion and turned around thinking he was going to witness a fight.

Caton told CTV News that once he realized what was going on he screamed: "Stop the bus, somebody's getting stabbed, everyone get the hell off."

The bus driver pulled over on a section of the east-bound Trans-Canada Highway -- about 15 kilometres west of Portage la Prairie -- and many of the 37 passengers began to flee the bus.

Passengers attempt rescue

Caton gathered a small group of people to go back and help the victim, said CTV correspondent Murray Oliver in Winnipeg.

"They returned to the back of the bus to find that the person who was stabbing the person in the neck had now sawed off the head of (the victim)."

The man, with the head in one hand and the knife in the other, then tried to attack the other passengers, said Oliver.

The group was able to exit the bus and slammed the door behind them.

The man then stabbed the door with his knife but was unable to break through and get off the bus. Eventually, he attempted to start up the bus to drive away but the operator had hit a switch, disabling the vehicle.

Oliver said a truck driver then arrived at the scene and handed out wrenches and crowbars to several men. The small group gathered around the door to the bus and prevented the man from exiting until police arrived.

Cody Olmstead, a Nova Scotia man who was on the bus, said that the killer taunted the men who were blocking the door from the outside.

"He cut (the victim's) head off and then walked up to the door holding it and just looked at them crazy-like and then dropped the head and walked back to the body and started cutting it some more," Olmstead told CTV News from outside a hotel in Brandon, Man., where he and other passengers were taken.

The man was left alone with the body and witnesses say that he performed further indignities to the victim.

"We have word from people on the scene . . . that when the killer was alone with the body . . . that there may have been some small acts of cannibalism on the body," Oliver said.

Oliver said that police have not confirmed that, but have not denied it either.

Criminal profiler Pat Brown told CTV Newsnet that the killing may have been planned in advance, even if the choice of victim was completely random.

"This may have been planned -- to have this moment of rage," she said.

A number of witnesses referred to the suspect's actions as "robot-like." Brown said that fits the profile of some high-profile psychopaths who go into a "trance" while performing ghastly acts, ignoring the world around them.

The suspect

RCMP eventually arrested the man after a standoff lasting several hours, said Oliver.

Witnesses said the suspect was tall, large and wearing sunglasses, even though it was dark.

David Eastwick, a passenger on the bus, told CTV News that he noticed that there seemed to be something "wrong" with the suspect even before the attack.

"He look kind of suspicious when I saw him," a clearly-tired Eastwick said Thursday. "Most people if you say 'Hi' to them they say 'Hi' back to you but this one just looked back and (stared.)"

"I knew something was wrong (with) his mind."

Greyhound provides counselling

Abby Wambaugh, media relations spokeswoman for Greyhound, said the company is now working with Transport Canada to review bus security.

She called the situation tragic but said travelling by bus is still "the safest mode of transportation in the country."

Wambaugh also said Greyhound is fully co-operating with the RCMP investigation.

Passengers will be escorted to Winnipeg once they are interviewed by RCMP, said Wambaugh.

Once there, Greyhound will provide counselling for any passengers who want the service, she said.

Greyhound released the following statement Thursday night:

• The incident near Portage la Prairie, Manitoba, was tragic. Our condolences go out to the victim's family, and Greyhound Canada will continue to cooperate fully with the RCMP on their investigation to determine why exactly this horrible event occurred. Intercity bus has been and remains the safest mode of transportation in the country.

Government responds

Meanwhile, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day said Thursday he was shocked when he heard about the incident.

"Like most Canadians I'm horrified to hear of the account," Day said. "It's more than most people can even contemplate."

He said it was "probably one-of-a-kind in Canadian history."

 

quote>

[Godzillaman 21]

Originally posted by: your_adress_here 

"He said it was "probably one-of-a-kind in Canadian history."

quote>

Well that's not too hard to guess...

I seriously hope they get an answer to why on earth would anyone do that, especially on a bus, with everyone being able to notice...

[screamingman12 30]

Like I said, this guy probably had attachment disorder or anti-social personality disorder, people who have that generally commit acts of violence (such as murder) as if is is completely normal behavior.

[Tia-may 0]

To behead a man is a very terrible thing to do. It's barbaric and gruesome.

[Meg 368]

This was probably a good advertising idea when they thought of it.  I have to agree that it is just not appropriate now.

Greyhound pulls 'bus rage' ads

Becky Rynor, Canwest News Service

Published: Tuesday, August 05, 2008

Greyhound Canada said Tuesday that it is in the process of pulling a series of ads in an extensive, cross-country campaign featuring the slogan, "There's a reason you've never heard of bus rage."

The company made the move in response to last week's gruesome beheading murder on an eastbound Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie, Man., which claimed the life of Tim McLean, 22.

"We just felt, in light of the recent incident, it could be a very offensive message and we didn't think it was appropriate for it to be run any longer," said Greyhound Canada spokeswoman, Abby Wambaugh.

The campaign included posters and ads in handbooks at universities and at the Alberta summer games. It used the slogan, "There's a reason you've never heard of bus rage," intending to encourage commuters to avoid the stresses of highway driving by taking the bus.

"(The ad) was saying you don't have to be behind the wheel, you don't have to be in the traffic, you can sit back and let someone else do the driving for you," Wambaugh said.

"It was aimed at potential and current Greyhound ridership. We don't think it's an appropriate slogan anymore, and that is why we've chosen to remove it."

Last week's horrific attack has resulted in a growing number of calls for beefed-up safety on intercity buses.

By late Tuesday, an online petition had gathered more than 600 signatures, demanding Greyhound improve its security.

"That was the bus I always take to go visit my parents in Manitoba and would like something to be done about this," wrote Melanie Schwarz on her posting to the petition. "This is not Greyhound's fault but now maybe its time to prevent it from anything like that happening again."

" . . . can't more security be legislated/mandated?" wrote D. McCoy. "It doesn't make any sense that there is more security getting into a night club than there is to ride a bus across the country!"

Janine King also signed the petition and wrote, "Greyhound needs to review its security measures to ensure that this never happens to another passenger. Please, for Tim's memory, something needs to be done."

Wambaugh said Greyhound Canada has been working with Transport Canada for the past 18 months to determine what security measures would be most effective for intercity bus companies.

But given the "rural nature of our network, airport-style security such as X-ray machines would not be practical," she said.

Wambaugh said Greyhound operates under an "open" system, while airports operate under a "closed" system.

"You get on a bus and it makes many stops along the way and everybody on the bus is free to come and go," she said.

"I believe we have around 600 locations in Canada and many of those are rural locations. A lot of them aren't even Greyhound terminals. They would be what we call agencies, which means we contract with a business and they operate as a Greyhound bus stop or ticket agent on our behalf. So that's very different, as well, from an airport."

She said that since 2003, the Department of Homeland Security has given Greyhound more than $16 million in grants to implement security improvements, such as random "wandings" with metal detectors.

"We're working with Transport Canada and we are hoping for funding from them, as well," Wambaugh said.

"As far as security goes, this was an incident that we were very shocked and saddened by. We do still believe that it was truly an isolated incident. Nothing could have prepared us for what occurred."

© Canwest News Service 2008  quote>

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/story.html?id=0ae00464-9d02-416a-9ae4-08ccc246c322

[Easy Bakes 253]

Nice add there.

Good to get rid of it though.

[CaseyBleu 0]

OMG. My sister was on that bus- No joke, She was on the way to a friends house and she saw the man do the whole thing! Im just glad shes not hurt! she just had her baby like 2 weeks ago, So thank you lord! for saving my sister.

She said it was the worst thing she has ever seen in her life! and she has seen some pretty horrible things!

[waterstreet 1]

I am having the feeling that this is going to expand on the fears some people have in the back of there heads, and will inevitably do more harm to Greyhound in terms of business sells going down. I commute on buses much of the time, and reading this story sets off some kind of fear in the back of my mind. I know the odds of being in a wreck or attacked by a dog are greater, but somehow this horrific and infamous attack leaves wisps that if unchecked could make me extra paranoid on a bus. Yes there are people that may have an "attachment disorder or anti-social personality disorder," as ScreamingMan12 said, and that only makes it tougher to believe in humanity when one doesn't believe in a contingent being.