The School Rights and Discrimination Thread

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Sitting in a classroom is not like being in jail.  If you need to be shown the difference, I'm sure that can be arranged.quote>

Do you mean to be threatening? How could you arrange that?

I think there should be more effective rules and consequences for driving on school property. I have worked with the public school system for a few years now, and High School parking lots are soooo dangerous! Kids drive recklessly and cause accidents all the time, but rarely is there any relevant consequence--like not allowing that kid to drive their car on school property anymore after they have injured another student with their car!quote>

Hmm.. A good principle to work on. What I'd do is set up another parking lot 1 km away for them to park their cars for a year or so, thereby causing inconvenience for the injury.

Also, you're not going off-topic talking about school policy, hailman. I thank you for "stirring the pot". I'd like to see some more opinions, not just reactions.

[saltandsauce 0]

teachers in my school give detentions whenever maintainance in the classrooom needs done (clean windows, clean boards, sharpen pencils etc.) or get given lines (useless) however in some cases teachers get students to hold out a medicine ball (they are REALLY heavy) with arms outstretched at your front for five-ten solid minutes which can be excrutiating (this is legal, no physical contact between the teacher and pupil) so detentions are useful from the schools view.

School has never been or intended to be pleasant in fact the opposite. it was supposed to be stern and austere, teachers who try to be friends with the pupils are like parents who want to be their kids best friends and their kids are badly screwed up! they would prefer a parent to be a parent not a friend that is what friends are for. he less choice the pupils are given the easier it is to learn and your years wasted in school will eventually count for something.

[Bumdark 3]

Dear GOD do I know what you mean by reckless kids in cars, Hailman. I don't know how it is around the world, but here in Qu

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

Sitting in a classroom is not like being in jail.  If you need to be shown the difference, I'm sure that can be arranged.quote>

Do you mean to be threatening? How could you arrange that?  quote>

No, I don't mean to be threatening.  I'm just pointing out that many jurisdictions have programs that bring teenagers into jails to talk with the inmates.

Originally posted by: saltandsauce

 in some cases teachers get students to hold out a medicine ball (they are REALLY heavy) with arms outstretched at your front for five-ten solid minutes which can be excrutiating (this is legal, no physical contact between the teacher and pupil)  quote>

That seems wrong to me.  But I understand why they do it.  With some (key word there) people, physical pain is the only thing that gets their attention.  But stuff like that should not be done lightly.

Originally posted by: Bumdark

Dear GOD do I know what you mean by reckless kids in cars, Hailman. I don't know how it is around the world, but here in Québec, you're allowed to drive as soon as you hit sixteen. Personally, this disgusts me. quote>

Are you saying there is not a graduated licensing system?  In Maryland, teens first get a learner's permit, then a provisional license, then a full license.  It is possible to get a full license a few months before your 18th birthday but it doesn't happen in most cases.

I mean, where I come from, 80% of teens (13-18 year olds) are basically brainless, gormless idiots that would rather drink, get wasted and brawl than do anything else. No, I'm not generalizing - come take a stroll in these 'hoods, you'll see how pathetic our youth is. It's not for nothing we've got (last I read) the largest dropout levels IN THE WORLD.quote>

I'm not familiar with the teens in your area but I know many teenagers who are nothing like that. 

And now, if I could push forwards a few more suggestions of my own...?

1 - Remove the STUPID and PAINFULLY POINTLESS restrictions on school networks and Internet services.

I mean, for God's sakes, when they start blocking YouTube and GameSpot.com because they "entice playing video games instead of education", they seriously need to get their heads out of their own arses. quote>

And when you get to the workplace, you will find the network there similarly blocked.  The reasoning is the people who pay the bills for the computers and network get to decided how it's used.

And besides, one of my leisure activities is cirvumventing their pathetic firewalls and security systems (they use Faronic's Deef Freeze) and modifying the Registry to manually remove all these restrictions, such as "no right-click on desktop", "no "Run / Execute" command prompts", etc. Don't fret, I don't cripple the PCs or anything, just try to get them more user-friendly. Glad to state, actually, that I haven't even been discovered yet...! Wow, some pros.  quote>

Try that at work and you'll wind up fired.

2 - Abolish INSTANTLY the schools' "we'll-check-your-locker-if-we-want-to-so-shut-up" policies, where they could snap off your lock without even warning you or without even any particular reason, just to check you aren't carrying drugs and stuff.

This is particularly searing in unfairness. How dare they!? Sure, they installed the stupid metal boxes, but if my stuff and valuables are in there, don't they dare touch them. I'd break every bone in their reptillian fingers... *incromprehensible mutterings* This is just unfair and tyrannical. Teachers and Administrators should be requires to have good reasons, or even proof, to believe your locker may be harboring something less-than-legal before being allowed to pry into your private affairs.quote>

Again, the schools own the lockers; they can do whatever they want with them.   But I take your point:  requiring something resembling "probable cause" would be nice.

3 - Remove the "no going to the restrooms or taking a drink of water during class hours" rules. quote>

Your school has a policy of no going at all during class?  That does seem a bit extreme.  Around here, students get X number of passes per semester.   The idea is they can't use it as a repeated excuse to leave class but can go when they need to.

4 - Make sure the school buildings don't fall into disrepair.

I know this isn't an actual policy... but for Pete's sake, our air ducts are held together by duct tape! (Could the name be more appropriate!?) Our walls our so cracked it's like seeing the Grand Canyon from above! The school's so indescriminately filthy (kids will do that, even with a horde of janitors working overtime...) you could practically swim on litter, ranging from broken beer bottles to cigarettes to GodKnowsWhatElse... Eeeek! quote>

Time for my rant:  schools should have funding to keep the buildings in good shape.  and to keep equipment and supplies in the classrooms.  Teachers should have higher salaries.   Education should have a higher priority.  The whole system needs to be overhauled.  Various jurisdictions have tried overhauling it bit by bit with mixed results.  Teachers are expected to do so much more now than when I was a kid, it's not surprising that some of them can't do it all.

[saltandsauce 0]

our school never seems to clean the toilets so nobody would WANT to get out of class to go to the toilet (there are 5 stalls 3 of them lock of those 3, 1 has been flushed in the last millenia) so you have to hold tho door shut with you hands (the door is 3 feet from the toilet) and if neds come in and start punching the doors fat chance it'll stay closed with your hand on it

[beebs 129]

1 - Remove the STUPID and PAINFULLY POINTLESS restrictions on school networks and Internet services.

I mean, for God's sakes, when they start blocking YouTube and GameSpot.com because they "entice playing video games instead of education", they seriously need to get their heads out of their own arses. I mean, they even blocked our immensely-popular "www.tetesaclaques.tv" (animations that hold satire and comedy, worth it for whomever speaks French and can understand our "slang"), which should be a criminal offence... (Alright, just kidding... but it does suck.)

And besides, one of my leisure activities is cirvumventing their pathetic firewalls and security systems (they use Faronic's Deef Freeze) and modifying the Registry to manually remove all these restrictions, such as "no right-click on desktop", "no "Run / Execute" command prompts", etc. Don't fret, I don't cripple the PCs or anything, just try to get them more user-friendly. Glad to state, actually, that I haven't even been discovered yet...! Wow, some pros. quote>

You aren't there to go on YouTube or Gamestop, you're there to learn. It might suck, but life doesn't cater to your ever need (or want).

2 - Abolish INSTANTLY the schools' "we'll-check-your-locker-if-we-want-to-so-shut-up" policies, where they could snap off your lock without even warning you or without even any particular reason, just to check you aren't carrying drugs and stuff.

This is particularly searing in unfairness. How dare they!? Sure, they installed the stupid metal boxes, but if my stuff and valuables are in there, don't they dare touch them. I'd break every bone in their reptillian fingers... *incromprehensible mutterings* This is just unfair and tyrannical. Teachers and Administrators should be requires to have good reasons, or even proof, to believe your locker may be harboring something less-than-legal before being allowed to pry into your private affairs.quote>

If you don't want them rooting through your valuables, don't keep anything valuable in your locker. It might be "your" locker because you claimed it and put your lock on it, but it is still the property of the school.

3 - Remove the "no going to the restrooms or taking a drink of water during class hours" rules.

This is simply barbaric, really. Since when do we need to be told when to use the facilities? What if I need to go NOW, am I just expected to make a "boom-boom" before they allow me to go release? This is ridiculous. And what if I'm thirsty at the moment, to the point where I can't even concentrate well? From what I know, preventing someone from their hereditary right to Water is a criminal offense according to our charts (if I remember it right). If I'm thirsty, I sure as hell am gonna go and drink, let them say anything about it.quote>

Agree with you on this one.

[coolotter88 2]

I think tenured teachers in my district can do whatever they want, short of killing a kid without much punishment from higher ups.

[confused04 14]

I haven't read ALL respsones so I will likely be repeating much of what has been said... but I WHOLE HEARTEDLY disagree with EVERY point mentioned. After going through the education system in 3 states with varying socio-economic backgrounds, the rules are in place for a reason. Children need structure and discipline and when given the freedom prior to maturity, they are not just likely, the vast majority WILL abuse it. I personally believe there is TOO much freedom in our schools and we need to hunker down and get serious about putting children in line.

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized.quote>

This has been harped on many times. I mean come on... school is necessary for a democracy and a society to function. Telling kids they don't have to go, they will naturally take on option over the other. Suck it up, go and get it over with. Its not difficult and keeps children out of trouble while learning valuable life skills. The point of education is to socialize our children to how the system works. Making it voluntary is just asking for societal collapse. We ALREADY have an attendance problem AS IS with compulsory attendance.

2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc.quote>

Students aren't adults... thats the first problem. They will not be equal under the laws because students can't understand nor take responsibility under the conditions the law provides. Adults are given both more freedom and responsibilities. School teachers are given VERY strict attendance policies and are even dictated in how to act, how and what to teach, what to wear and say. Its not an easy world for a teacher. Recently a teacher was forced to resign because she took a sick day to appear on the Howard Stearn show in a rather racy contest. Teachers are held to strict standards.

3. Attendance requirements for primary and secondary schools need to be equal, at 85% of the year.quote>

They've been the same from my elementary school days through highschool... but medically speaking, younger students are more prone to becoming ill an getting injured so deserve leeway in terms of attendance and are forced by parents to give justification. Additionally, as upcoming adults, high school students need to be accountable for their actions and since they are more likely to commit crimes, must have some incentive to stay in school (pass or fail....).

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.quote>

Students are even more short sighted than Education boards. They will trounce any policy change that is considered negative for them despite the fact that its in their best interest such as reducing crime and creating a positive learning environment. Students are not responsible for being capable of teaching themselves otherwise society would really suck.

5. All constitutional rights apply to school children as well as adults, including free speech and press.quote>

Numerous court cases have guaranteed some rights... but not all. Again... students are immature and irresponsible. They cannot handle the freedom that goes hand in hand with responsibility.

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.quote>

This is already illegal. If its not, then you need to discuss this with a lawyer. Teachers and administration cannot use force unless they are being physically threatened (and may only react defensively) or another student is being assaulted.

7. Abolish in-school suspension and detention, as this is the equivalent of holding a man in jail without a conviction.quote>

Thats just absurd... its not even close to being the equivalent. Its for at most 8 hours a day for in-school and 2 hours for detention. You aren't being bound, you aren't being held in a jail cell for years on end, you're crime is noted (justly or not). I just don't see the comparison at all. Its just not the same. Its not like you are being punished severely or risk seeing death row. And at most this stuff last for a few days unless your a chronic offender then perhaps real jail is not too bad of an option. In this case... you get to go home, play your video games, sleep in your own bed every night... not comparable.

In summary, all these complaints arise from the believe that students are equal to adults and they are not. Students, as mature as you may be, generally cannot handle the freedom nor the responsibility that coincides. Students are short sighted and often do not comprehend the consequences of their action. Many students are know-it-alls an think that they are above rules, regulations and laws. Additionally, students are troublesome accounting for a disproportionate amount of crime. It is society's job to mold students into productive citizens and leaving them up to their own devices is asking for it.

As it stands right now, students have TOO MUCH freedom. Students have so much course selection choice in grade school education. It is this freedom that many students choose to take the slacker classes cause its "fun" and "less work". We need to start forcing kids to do challenging work. Obviously I'm not gonna force every student to take Calculus II by their senior year... but Geometry should not be the minimum requirement. We need to challenge our children, not just a portion of it. Students inherently lack responsibility. I graduated from a poor school where more than 1/3 of the students didn't graduate. Many were pregnant, arrested, or just lacked motivation. And you want to give students more freedoms?! There were over 1,000 suspensions for a school with 1000 kids. And my school wasn't that bad compared to many others. Students need to learn that they are not the head haunchos of society. I LOATHE loud brats in public who think that because they are nearing adulthood or have reached it that they are entitled to act like bumbling idiots. Students need structure, discipline and containment. Giving students the ability to mold their destiny in the interest of freedom to slack off is silly.

I sound like I'm some 50+ person, but I'm not. I'm a tender youngin'. In terms of the hoax that was used on students, I find it particularly appalling. That should not be done in such a manner. But STUDENTS are NOT the check on faculty and administration, that is the parents who have the ability to defend the students. If Students were the check, they would put the school in anarchy. They should not be given more power. I think school uniforms should be in place to make everyone equal as well as eliminate gang distinguishing colors. I'm not the hardliner asking for all teachers to have rulers handy for smacking hands, but I don't trust young people to make the right decisions cause the generally DON'T. Yes... there are the 5% who are good and well mature before their time. Unfortunately 50% think they are part of that 5% and ruin it for them.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: confused04

In summary, all these complaints arise from the believe that students are equal to adults and they are not. Students, as mature as you may be, generally cannot handle the freedom nor the responsibility that coincides. Students are short sighted and often do not comprehend the consequences of their action. Many students are know-it-alls an think that they are above rules, regulations and laws. Additionally, students are troublesome accounting for a disproportionate amount of crime. It is society's job to mold students into productive citizens and leaving them up to their own devices is asking for it.

As it stands right now, students have TOO MUCH freedom. Students have so much course selection choice in grade school education. It is this freedom that many students choose to take the slacker classes cause its "fun" and "less work". We need to start forcing kids to do challenging work. Obviously I'm not gonna force every student to take Calculus II by their senior year... but Geometry should not be the minimum requirement. We need to challenge our children, not just a portion of it. Students inherently lack responsibility.quote>

 

Well put.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Really? That sounds pretty fascist and authoritarian too me.

And about the supposed 5% that are "mature":

1. How do you define "maturity"? It is a pretty subjective term,

2. Why don't you conduct a scientific survey of these teenagers and see what they do and what rules they have broken.

3. I am obviously NOT an anarchist. I am more of a liberal and I describe myself as a strong individualist. Perhaps that's why I don't approve of your post, because it sounds like a strong collectivist wrote it (no offense intended if you're not ).

4. Students do not account for a disproportionate amount of crime. How many children do you see in prisons/jails/detention camps compared to adults?

---

Also, I have opinions about the comments about the nonattendance due to a de-compulsorization of schools.

If the students won't go to the schools unless they are forced to do so, I think there must be something wrong with the schools. People learn more from a school they want to go to than a school they don't want to go to.

---

On a final note, I say:

Adults have freedoms and rights with reasonable limits. Why not children and teens? Except for experience and size, teens are no different than adults. What difference is there between a 17 and 18 year old in perceptions and instincts? Why should we hold our students in a totalitarian grip only to release them from it when they reach a certain age?

Is that not discrimination of the highest order?

Also, blacks did not get civil rights waiting for whites to hand it over to them on a silver platter. Why should students?

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

Adults have freedoms and rights with reasonable limits. Why not children and teens? Except for experience and size, teens are no different than adults. What difference is there between a 17 and 18 year old in perceptions and instincts? Why should we hold our students in a totalitarian grip only to release them from it when they reach a certain age?quote>

Teens are very different from adults; one of the most important being a brain that's not fully evolved. If we're going to play that game, you'll not only have loads of civil servants testing the little rascals for maturity, you'll also have to discriminate heavily, based on sex, race, pollution levels, indoor enviroment, etc.

Maturity is no simple matter, but you can't have people going around judging each and every person. That's why we say that you're reasonably mature to drink and drive when you're 18, and to understand when it's appropriate to do either; and if you want to be an idiot and do both within a short timespan, it's your bloody life—your bloody problem.

[cheese91 9]

I like this thread. It's a very interesting read. Several of the points you guys are making are quite intriguing.

Now, my own personal issues that I have with my school...

1) There are 3,000 kids at my high school, and a few hundred staff members. In between classes, we are given 5 minutes to get to our next destination. Five minutes in a huge school where there are, say, 3,500 people running around...is not a lot of time. The hallways are crowded, stairways are jammed, not to mention, the 5 minutes is our only time to run to our lockers or use the restrooms. If we are even 4 seconds late to our next class, we get a detention. This rule is absolutely ridiculous. I understand that they are trying to teach us how to be punctual and use our time wisely. But, if I am trying to get from one end of my school to the other, I'm going to need much more than 5 minutes. It is completely unfair to punish me for the hallways being jammed. It's not my fault. I'd like to see the time extended to even 6 or 7 minutes...regardless of if that means that we need to stay in school for an extra half-hour. I'd have to stay after school for the extra 1/2 hour anyway if I got a detention for being late. Guh, this angers me even just thinking about it!

2) Another one of my biggest problems that I have with some of the rules at my school is that students are not allowed to use cell phones or any other electronic device during school hours. Alright, fine, I can live with not using my iPod or cellphone during class...I wouldn't do that anyway. But, what really frustrates me is that we are not allowed to even take them out to look at what time it is during our studyhalls or while we are getting from class to class. What makes me even more mad about this rule is that teachers can use their electronic devices whenever, and I mean WHENEVER they want to. In the middle of teaching one day, my history teacher goes "OOPS! I forgot to call the babysitter, hang on class!" and goes on her cell phone to take care of business. I completely understand how the administration would like children to be off of their phones during class time. But, it's extremely hypocritical and, in my opinion, rude for teachers to be allowed to use their electronics whenever they want to. It's like dangling a piece of steak in front of a dog, and then taking it away. If the rule is that no cell phones or other electronics can be in sight during school hours, then I think that rule should apply to everyone, not just students. The punishment for a teacher even SEEING a cellphone during school hours is even more ridiculous than the rule itself: students get one day of ISS (in school suspension) for an electronic device even just being spotted by a teacher. That means that a suspension gets put on a students personal record for possession of a cellphone or iPod or anything of that sort. This is absurd! I have seen instances where a student would be looking through her/his backpack for a pen or pencil or other item, takes out his phone to be able to look more thoroughly for his writing utensil, places the phone on the desk, and gets a suspension for it. He wasn't even USING the phone, just taking it out of his backback to get a pencil, and gets punishment for it. Again, I understand why cell phones and electronics should not be used during class. However, the fact that teachers can use theirs, and the fact that the punishment is so absurd really bothers me.

I'm sure there are other silly rules that I could rant about, but those are the main two that make me angry.

[Bumdark 3]

Just to respond to some replies I've recieved. I admit, some points I should have explained more clearly... Ah well.

SkiGeek

Are you saying there is not a graduated licensing system?  In Maryland, teens first get a learner's permit, then a provisional license, then a full license.  It is possible to get a full license a few months before your 18th birthday but it doesn't happen in most cases.quote>

There is also a "provisional" license here, where your parents or legal guardians need to sign them, you need to pass some basic tests, etc... What I meant is any 16yo is then legally allowed to take these tests, get the license and then go wreak havoc on the streets. Hell, the newspapers around here are just full of deaths caused by 16 to 20 year olds. Some of them even occasionally get headline news when things get ugly enough. At my school, I've so far counted 4 TIMES that I've nearly been run over by some moronic arseholes – not kidding. Twice of those, were drunk teens (I SAW the beer bottles on their seats) and they purposefully swove in the lane (leading in and out of the school's parking) to "mock" hit me, yelling and laughing. Sorry if I seem a bit prejudiced about youths, but when no youth you see is respectable and decent, you realize something's off...

I'm not familiar with the teens in your area but I know many teenagers who are nothing like that.quote>

I imagine it would be a combination of factors that contribute to our incredibly high moronic levels in younger people. First of all, most parents these days are single parents (usually fathers, the mothers usually move out with their new boyfriends), parents who like the fridge to be stocked with booze rather than food, you know? Then there's the incredibly bad influences hanging around. From where I am, it's only a short drive to Montreal (the great urban city around), and gang problems there are continually expanding across the neighboring suburbs – some "colors" routinely pass in the neighborhood, scoping things out (I think that's what they do...). Lord knows kids tend to gravitate towards those who show power; in influencable minds, what's more powerful than evading the Law, selling drugs and getting rich, carrying tons of guns and getting wasted all the time? To most kids (those I know at least, which does comprise a fair few) that's their personal slice of heaven right there. ... Which is really sad. Finally, just the general crumminess of the gov't and fundings around here. Schools are crumbling (TWO roofs caved in this winter alone under the snow, which hadn't happened in many years), hospitals are so over-capacity it's like in SC4 when you plant one for a million Sims and reduce the budget by half; etc... Just general discontentment of the people. Parents pass this on to their kids, who harbor it.

Wow, that was long.

Now, don't get me wrong – this is by no means all kids I'm talking about... just roughly three quarters of them. There are some nicer, decent kids, who actually DON'T get their thrills by picking on others (like me)... But explain this: my school holds well over 3,200 students, the largest in the area. (Suburbs here.) Our library has more books than a country could read in a decade, ranging from culture to science, literature, joke books, Guiness World Records, etc. Yet, how come, even during the long breaks, there's hardly ever a soul, except me, in there? Kids would rather smoke and act dumb than be decent. I know first hand.

It's just too bad, really... Basically a lost generation in my area. But enough of that now.

Try that at work and you'll wind up fired.quote>

I'm well aware of that... Which is why I (among many other mroe important reasons) I have no intention of working in offices or stuff. I intend to use my creativity to get me through, I've already earned a pretty penny selling my stuff (drawings, music, etc.) and I intend to get nothing but better. I'd rather eat my nuts (metaphorically...) than have some tyrannical boss that's always on my back. I've got a damn father just for that. SIGH

Besides, it's not like I'm dumb enough to do it at work. I just do it in schools 'cause...

1 – To be perfectly honest, I'm always teaching our IT techs how to do stuff (is that normal!?), so one could question their skills;

2 – Our computors are so old and crappy (some still run on Windows 98... 'nuff said) so the better I boost their performances, the better (see note below);

3 – During my considerable free time, as I've already passed all the classes and their tests (special reasons), I simply have nothing better to do than to flex my skills.

(Note – I'm a Hacker and proud of it. Now, DO NOT MISTAKE THIS WITH CRACKER. Notice the "C". There is a substantial – say, polar opposite – difference between Hacking and Cracking. To Hack means to test systems, improve them, increase security. Crack (as in break, strain, split, etc.) is to destroy them, implement code, steal info, etc. Medias and stuff always use the term Hack when the term Crack should be used, which is greatly annoying. Just to clear that up.)

Again, the schools own the lockers; they can do whatever they want with them.   But I take your point:  requiring something resembling "probable cause" would be nice.quote>

I'm not complaining against the fact that it's "their" lockers, I fully agree with and respect that. They paid and built them, it's theirs. I just mean, they should show more consideration before opening them and ferreting through the contents, some of which could be incredibly personal (that's what lockable lockers are for in the first place!). Say a girl kept her diary in there – if some jackass official came and opened the locker on a whim, and read that stuff – how on Earth could that be justified as "fair"? I just mean they could show more respect with people's personal stuff. It's not 'cause we're not adults that we can't have private lives we'd like to keep sheltered and secret. (Hence, "Private" lives.)

Your school has a policy of no going at all during class?  That does seem a bit extreme.  Around here, students get X number of passes per semester.   The idea is they can't use it as a repeated excuse to leave class but can go when they need to.quote>

Nope, we can only leave in very special circumstances; such as when girls are in their "time of the month" and etc. When you say, while hopping and squirming like you're sitting on hot coals, that you need to go the the restroom NOW, and they keep asking "Do you really need to go? Can it wait?"... That's when I just lose my temper. "Look, jackass, I gotta go! Be right back!" ... Which usually lands me in detention. Circle of of life.

Time for my rant:  schools should have funding to keep the buildings in good shape.  and to keep equipment and supplies in the classrooms.  Teachers should have higher salaries.   Education should have a higher priority.  The whole system needs to be overhauled.  Various jurisdictions have tried overhauling it bit by bit with mixed results.  Teachers are expected to do so much more now than when I was a kid, it's not surprising that some of them can't do it all.quote>

Well, I wouldn't know about the situation in the US, but here in Canada, it's the gov't that controls everything: Health, Education, Law Enforcement, etc. All in all, what we do: Blame the gov't. Schools all around the Province are continually holding sales, marathons, etc,; just to increase money. At my school, we've got about 6 TV sets (all of them smaller than 30-inches, which, to show a class of over 30 which is standard, is pathetically small) and only about a dozen projectors (for correcting work and stuff). Our cafeterial food tastes like it comes straight from the dump, not because the cooks suck, just because they haven't got any good food to work with to begin with (that's why I don't even eat there, I choose to starve instead). Roughly a quarter of the school's lights are burnt out, with a few being replaced now and then. The sewage systems have backed up twice in this year alone (in November and in May) because some pipes burst due to being rusted clean through. And etc. Need I go longer?

And yet, our dear Prime Minister Charest "pas-de-couilles" (means gormless in slang) keeps stating he plans to increase our funding to Education, Healthcare, etc... Hell, people are dying in Hospitals because the waiting's too long, but that's taboo around here so I'll shut up about that. Charest has been promising that raise ever since his first election, several years ago. Never seen a penny of it, yet he and his people dine in 5-star restaurants and sleep in hotels that make Hiltons look like pigsties... Eh.

Anyway, let's not turn this into a political rant.

Now, changing users... beebs:

You aren't there to go on YouTube or Gamestop, you're there to learn. It might suck, but life doesn't cater to your ever need (or want).quote>

I'm talking during free time, which is about as big a misnomer as can be around here. Our "free time" means study up on tests we've already passed, read boring educational sites (is there any other kind, except Wikipedia...?) and chatting with MSN in secret ('cause that's not allowed either). I mean, there are plenty worse sites to block (XXX for example) than Gamespot, which is as innocent a site as any. So yes, it does suck. Major.

If you don't want them rooting through your valuables, don't keep anything valuable in your locker. It might be "your" locker because you claimed it and put your lock on it, but it is still the property of the school.quote>

 

It's not valuables I mean, just personal stuff. Your agenda (timetables and stuff), your school books, etc. – none of it is particularly personally valuable, that still doesn't mean they should have the right to look at it and take it for themselves whenever they fancy. I paid for the damn things, they're mine, no matter whose locker they're in. In the end, I mean, if they have good reason to suspect a locker of containing anything illicit or dangerous, then I'm all for breaking the lock and exposing the contents, but when it's just like a freakin' witch hunt (random girl: "Hey, that guy has Playboy in his locker" without any proof or evidence at all), it's unfair and frankly insulting. Take yourself for example. Say you bought some books to read. It's not like they're particularly precious or valuable to you; just casual entertainment. Yet, that doesn't mean you wouldn't get miffed when someone decided to take them off their shelves and rifle through them for nothing, right?

That's it for now. Got some SC4 to play!

[fukuda 351]

Really? That sounds pretty fascist and authoritarian too me.quote>

in a totalitarian gripquote>

Your comments seem to be a bit overdramatic, sometimes...

I never got a suspension or detention at my crappy school, and I wasn't the only one.. I guess it's not so hard to be a good student, and it's not like you're being brainwashed...

Adults have freedoms and rights with reasonable limits. Why not children and teens? Except for experience and size, teens are no different than adults. quote>

Because they usually lack the required level of, let's see: discipline, responsibility, coherence, education and so on... That's why they are being educated after all, no?

I mean, for God's sakes, when they start blocking YouTube and GameSpot.com because they "entice playing video games instead of education", they seriously need to get their heads out of their own arses.quote>

I don't pay my taxes to give students some fun with youtube, I pay to give them a correct education or at least try to.

4 - Make sure the school buildings don't fall into disrepair.

I know this isn't an actual policy... but for Pete's sake, our air ducts are held together by duct tape! (Could the name be more appropriate!?) Our walls our so cracked it's like seeing the Grand Canyon from above! The school's so indescriminately filthy (kids will do that, even with a horde of janitors working overtime...) you could practically swim on litter, ranging from broken beer bottles to cigarettes to GodKnowsWhatElse... Eeeek!

quote>

More taxes, oh wait, no one wants to pay more taxes.

I guess I'll second confused on his arguments.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

cheese91: The rule about usage is not a silly rule, but it is the implementation is INSANE. Cell phone 'usage' means using it; like calling someone, checking messages, texting, etc.

Taking it out is NOT using it. They need to get their use of the term "usage" straight (i.e. look it up in a dictionary). Also, if teachers can use their phones during class, then students should also. It is a government facility, and in the US, the 14th amendment states, "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Bumdark: The locker is their property. However, the contents within are your property. In my view, the school has the right to search the locker, since it is their property. But they do not have the right to search the student's property. Examples: Reading a person's journal, looking inside a purse, or reading a person's schoolwork. Illegal contents such as drugs and guns are identifiable enough without prying into a person's property.

Also, as a side note -- I consider a teacher "confiscating" a student's property a theft. A student can be punished for using a cell phone, etc. without stealing it. Sometimes property is held for the entire school year, and the teacher often uses them for their own personal needs (I've seen it). If anyone else stole a phone or something else, they would be proecuted by the police for stealing. Teachers and principals should not be immune from the law.

[BurroDiablo 222]

School's nothing... just wait untill you start searching for jobs

[Micah 16]

Originally posted by: El Burro School's nothing... just wait untill you start searching for jobsquote>

 

Exactly... those all around the world complaining about school don't even realize how hard it is in the real world, when you have to find and keep a job. However, if the employees want "rights", they usually don't just sit and talk like most high schoolers do... they actually take action and form unions.

[Bumdark 3]

To answer fukuda, we here in Quebec pay astonomically high tax rates (we have two taxes actually... One for the country, one for the province... Does this occur anywhere else? I'm curious), and current legislature is trying to increase them even more... Problem is, it's what the gov't uses the money for that prevents proper funding from ever reaching what needs to be reached in the first place. Americans think their gov't is crap? Come to our place for a while, see if that changes. At least the US gov't "tries" to help it's people - here, they don't even try to cover up their incompetence, with so many emerging scandals all the time it's a wonder there hasn't been a revolution somewhere down the line.

Lord I miss America... I miss the mass deep-frying, the head-sized hamburgers, the blistering heat (well, OK, not that much), the FUNDING in schools, etc... Melodramatic situation aside, I'm just sick of our government doing everything it can to keep us in the dirt and to keep getting richer. For every man and woman in power that's trying to make our lives better, there are many more man and women, higher in power, that try to silence them...

Yet now I'm seriously digressing yet again, so back on track. We pay our taxes just like anyone else (talking for the people here), yet none of it ever changes... If at least we weren't so bloody deep in debt, to the point where each newborn hereditarily owns about $30,000 to the gov't before they even take their first breath...

And to comment on the "finding jobs" part just discussed, well, my dad has a saying: "If you de well in school, you won't be looking for jobs... Jobs will be looking for you". Lord knows it's absolutely true.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Bumdark To answer fukuda, we here in Quebec pay astonomically high tax rates (we have two taxes actually... One for the country, one for the province... Does this occur anywhere else? I'm curious),quote>

Of course it does. It's quite normal actually, and is one of two ways of funding regions. Ask the Albertans if they would want another tax regime. And really; if the state takes 30% and the province take 30%, which difference does it make over the state taking 60% (assuming that the astronomical levels are decent of course).

[beebs 129]

Bumdark: Most provinces in Canada have PST and GST. Alberta is the exception, with no PST.

Edit: krbe: I'm fine without the PST over here, thanks.

[ILL Tonkso 1,238]

None of you school lot understand how easy you have it. It is also worth noting that all these rules that appear silly to you come clear as you grow up. I am 20 now, so been out of school 4 years, at university at the moment. Life is so much harder now, I have to study harder, work harder AND balance a part time job.

In school you cannot use a mobile phone, get used to it, if you work in something like Retail it is the same. School uniform, ever heard of a work uniform, they exist. A lot of kids complain because they are not allowed to talk in lesson, I genuinely cannot understand peoples gripe with the rule! You are there to STUDY not chat about last nights TV. Ever tried to buckle down and study while people next to you are chatting away? You can't, it is a little something called distraction.

Just to end this rant, I believe the caps are justified:

YOU GET AN EDUCATION AND A CHANCE TO GO FAR IN LIFE, PAYED FOR BY THE STATE AS A RIGHT. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO DO NOT HAVE THIS CHANCE SO THINK YOURSELF LUCKY YOU DO AND STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT

[hamsterTK 93]

You know I kind of agree with Fukuda. I don't about you guys but I didn't really get into trouble at school once I got past 8th grade. I always had my cell phone but they never caught me with it.

Bumdark: The locker is their property. However, the contents within are your property. In my view, the school has the right to search the locker, since it is their property. But they do not have the right to search the student's property. Examples: Reading a person's journal, looking inside a purse, or reading a person's schoolwork]/b]. Illegal contents such as drugs and guns are identifiable enough without prying into a person's property.

Also, as a side note -- I consider a teacher "confiscating" a student's property a theft. A student can be punished for using a cell phone, etc. without stealing it. Sometimes property is held for the entire school year, and the teacher often uses them for their own personal needs (I've seen it).. If anyone else stole a phone or something else, they would be proecuted by the police for stealing. Teachers and principals should not be immune from the law.quote>

Honestly, I think if you could prove that any teacher was actually doing that(which I am skeptical) you would be able to complain and they would get burned.

[Goldfish4209 9]

Originally posted by: ILL TonksoYOU GET AN EDUCATION AND A CHANCE TO GO FAR IN LIFE, PAYED FOR BY THE STATE AS A RIGHT. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO DO NOT HAVE THIS CHANCE SO THINK YOURSELF LUCKY YOU DO AND STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT ITquote>

Schools are funded by the state, which is funded by us. Essentially, we're paying for it ourselves. Yes, we are lucky we get to take a good education for granted, but what's wrong with a little [Marc- Language] about policies we don't like? Do you agree with us that some of the stated things are absurd and/or unfair?

[ephorex_77 0]

I've read through all the replies on this thread; the first one that's actually caught my attention in a while. 

I expected most posters here to be against most of your points, PM. Call it a stereotype, but I'd be inclined to say that the average ST'er isn't likely to be a high school drop-out or even an underachiever when it comes to school. Simcity doesn't quite lend itself to that kind of student. Not surprisingly, it seems I was right about my hunch.

My opinions on this topic are of course, influenced by my own experiences as a student, and also by the media (you can't get away from them). In Melbourne, overprotective parents and lousy schools get plenty of media attention, in between coverage of earthquakes and corruption scandals. And judging by letters to the editor, it seems that many people agree that schools have to be stricter and actually educate/discipline children. *shock*

I won't go through all the points that I have in mind, seeing as it's all been done before, but I'd like to introduce something new into this thread. Duke made a good point about racial quotas in the school system. From what I've gleaned over the years looking at wikipedia (admittedly, not the best of places to get info), racial quotas are something that threaten to destroy the integrity of the meritocratic school system (obviously you can tell I'm agreeing with duke). On a related note, have you noticed how different races and places have different views on education? 

For instance, I'm quite sure that in places like Africa and Asia, education would be considered a cherished privilege. For those that don't have access to one, education remains the ultimate goal for many parents who know that it is through education alone that the poverty cycle is broken and access to a better life is granted. Anecdotally, migrants (read: minorities new to a country) are generally more disposed to valuing education. I would also bet that minority students (fresh from another country) would be less likely to be sent to detention or be in trouble for failing to hand in homework, etc. etc.

If true, this may lend credence to that old saying, you never miss the water till the well runs dry. I just wonder, PM, if you've ever considered what it would be like without education. I'm not implying that you're a failure at school. It would just be good to accommodate the perspective of someone for whom education is the only means to a better life. If those racuous students in every school were to be deprived of an education and could subsequently be led to see their possible futures without an education, I wonder if any one of them would be so keen to propose points like you have. 

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.

I lived in Malaysia for five years and was educated in primary school over there. I speak from personal experience when I say that judicious applications of a rattan cane to the hand (and they weren't soft strokes either!) did me absolutely no harm. In fact, I credit canings for having instilled in me a greater work ethic. Again, this is something you hear here in Australia. Whenever reports of schoolkids out of hand are published, letters to the editor pour in, mentioning how the cane and the ruler should be brought back. Claims of "my son/my daughter/I myself was caned/rapped on the knuckles/given 10 of the best when I was young, and it did me a world of good" frequently appear. 

Again, perhaps the older generations were on to something with "spare the rod and spoil the child". Corporal punishment as a last resort that is done with disciplining a child in mind and is free from unbridled desperation and frustration (read: the teacher/parent can't go nuts and smash the child out of fury) is something that I see as a positive thing. Too often, we have people equating old-fashioned disciplining with child abuse. This should not be the case. Corrective punishment as a last resort that doesn't descend into mindless abuse isn't something that society should condemn.

In today's world, a smack to the bottom later, and there goes Mr Jones off to gaol, his wife divorces him, their three children sent to child-care services in case further child/sexual abuse can be perpetrated and the family broken up. 

Personally, I see this drop in child discipline as being inversely proportional to the rise in youth problems today. Society (at least here in Melbourne, though I suspect it's the same elsewhere) bemoans the fact that the youth of today are thugs and louts, yet principals, teachers and parents punished if they attempt to rein their child in. I wonder how many of those "problem youths" could have had a different life had their nascent behaviour problems been nipped in the bud early by parents or teachers who were concerned with their increasingly bad behaviour?

In my view, the school has the right to search the locker, since it is their property. But they do not have the right to search the student's property. Examples: Reading a person's journal, looking inside a purse, or reading a person's schoolwork. Illegal contents such as drugs and guns are identifiable enough without prying into a person's property. quote>

Interesting. If your view prevailed, I could be growing a massive haul of weed in my house underground (not easily identifiable) safe in the knowledge that no one could touch it seeing as it's on MY property and the plants were MY property and the water and electricity were MY property? The same thinking could be applied to slaves (human property), neglected animals (animal property) and you would ostensibly end up with the same situation. 

Forgive me for saying so, but again, I believe that your post and the points you raised right at the start are reminiscent of a focus on ME ME ME as opposed to society in general in today's day and age. Not allowing teachers to do their job, hauling parents off to gaol for laying a finger on their child, a failure to rein in anti-social behaviour for fear of infringing on their personal rights, entertaining prisoners like gods in case they sue for "mistreatment" etc. are all examples of this malodorous issue.

All these problems are symptomatic of a failure to see that I am also part of SOCIETY (pretty catchy =P), which gives rise to a whole pandora's box of other social ills. 

P.S. Sorry for wandering off topic. Yet, I guess the topics I raise are related to this thread. 

EDIT:

YOU GET AN EDUCATION AND A CHANCE TO GO FAR IN LIFE, PAYED FOR BY THE STATE AS A RIGHT. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO DO NOT HAVE THIS CHANCE SO THINK YOURSELF LUCKY YOU DO AND STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT quote>

Heh, going for the succint, albeit blunt approach eh?? This pretty much sums up what I had to say about gratitude.

[fukuda 351]

To answer fukuda, we here in Quebec pay astonomically high tax rates (we have two taxes actually... One for the country, one for the province... Does this occur anywhere else? I'm curious)quote>

Yes, here for instance, we fund the federal central goverment, the state autonomous region government aaand the... catholic church (compulsory), even worse, it's a disguised confederation, so not all states have the same rights or status, cool, isn't it?.

And to comment on the "finding jobs" part just discussed, well, my dad has a saying: "If you do well in school, you won't be looking for jobs... Jobs will be looking for you". Lord knows it's absolutely true.quote>

That's only true if you studied a superior technical career (like engineering), or any other one where only a few pass and there are tons of job offers, it isn'st so simple if you studied scientific or informatic subjects, for instance.

[cheese91 9]

Originally posted by: ILL Tonkso None of you school lot understand how easy you have it. It is also worth noting that all these rules that appear silly to you come clear as you grow up. I am 20 now, so been out of school 4 years, at university at the moment. Life is so much harder now, I have to study harder, work harder AND balance a part time job.

In school you cannot use a mobile phone, get used to it, if you work in something like Retail it is the same. School uniform, ever heard of a work uniform, they exist. A lot of kids complain because they are not allowed to talk in lesson, I genuinely cannot understand peoples gripe with the rule! You are there to STUDY not chat about last nights TV. Ever tried to buckle down and study while people next to you are chatting away? You can't, it is a little something called distraction.

Just to end this rant, I believe the caps are justified:

YOU GET AN EDUCATION AND A CHANCE TO GO FAR IN LIFE, PAYED FOR BY THE STATE AS A RIGHT. THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO DO NOT HAVE THIS CHANCE SO THINK YOURSELF LUCKY YOU DO AND STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT ITquote>

I hope that people are not getting the wrong impression by what I posted or by what...any of the other seemingly "complaining" students posted. I think I can speak for the most of us when I say that we understand how important an education is. The majority of us understand that we are very lucky to even be receiving said education.

I understand that rules are rules. I understand that in the workplace you won't be able to use your cellphone because I, too, have a part-time job in which I am unable to use my phone. I do have to deal with the struggles of having to balance studying, family life, school life, and work, as I'm sure many other high-school students have to. It isn't so much that I'm complaining, I'm merely stating something I disagree with about the way my school runs. I do not take my schooling for granted, and I think the same can be said about the other people who've posted here. I understand that not everything in life will be fair and that I'll have to deal with things I don't like on a regular basis. However, the thread is about discussing school policies and unfairness's...if I can use that word . By no means was I implying that I hate rules or I don't understand why we have them or anything to that extent. Therefore, I think it is a bit unfair to say that none of us understand how easy we have it, because yes, we understand that we have a wonderful education that will benefit us greatly in the long run. We, or at least I, was/were just stating my opinions regarding some silly rules at my school. And no, these rules will not matter to me 10 years from now. But seeing as how I'm still in high school and they still affect my daily life in a ridiculous way, I think the unfairness is worth mentioning...especially to get some feedback and to get some other opinions.

I guess my point is that, I get why we have rules. I agree with the majority of the rules my school has enforced. I disagree, though, with certain rules (such as the "no going to the bathroom during class, no matter what" rule and the "even if you drop your cellphone accidentally on the ground, you get a suspension") and the way they are handled. However, just because I disagree with these rules does not, by any means, indicate that I take my schooling for granted or that I'm ungrateful or that I am blind to the reasons why the school even has rules.

I am not targeting one specific person in this post, either, however, tonksie, your post lent itself nicely to this response.

Alright, I'm done.

[confused04 14]

And about the supposed 5% that are "mature":

1. How do you define "maturity"? It is a pretty subjective term,quote>

Its not very subjective. Younger people tend to think that it is a subjective term. If you can function, pay your own bills under your own accord without protest and without whining and getting stuff down on their own, that is maturity. Being able to know ones place and the appropriate time when to voice discontent in appropriate ways. Being capable of solving conflict without external mediation and knowing the social graces necessary to interact with people of different cultures and groups. Now not all adults fit this definition, but most teens certainly don't. Having worked in the service industry, I've seen teens who think that talking absurdly loud, yelling, making a mess, getting drunk is not a measure of maturity. Another sign of maturity is the inability of teens to know when talking on a cell phone is both rude, obnoxious and down right dangerous. The inability of teens to help others out when they need help (and this is a big one). Young people don't hold doors open these days and they don't see what the big deal is and THAT is my biggest pet peeve. Teens who think that their time is of the utmost important over others.

Really if you are mature, you don't really need to define it. Its not something you need to go out and prove or strive to. You just are. Most teens can't even run their own finances, locate Iraq on a map, understand the purpose of a credit score, what the appropriate amount of your budget should be spent on housing, what a co-pay is, etc etc etc.  Even college kids are immature and try to take the easy road out, never the less highschool students. You pay your dues to society, 18 years isn't a long time....

2. Why don't you conduct a scientific survey of these teenagers and see what they do and what rules they have broken.quote>

http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/reports/report.pdf

50% of teenagers have admitted (and this is admitting to) recreational drug use.

The median age of drug use according to the Department of Justice for any drug is 16 with the more serious drugs being used at a median age of 18 (i.e., HALF of the users fell below age 16 while the other half fell at any age ABOVE 16, or 18 for major drugs).

Youths also tend to be involved in drug crimes, assaults, and property crimes at greater rates than other age groups.

This isn't a matter of "is it true", its no hidden fact. Youth tend to cause more trouble, this is one stereotype that has PLENTY of facts to back it up. Now I'm not saying all crime is caused by students. But an amount larger than their segment of the population.

3. I am obviously NOT an anarchist. I am more of a liberal and I describe myself as a strong individualist. Perhaps that's why I don't approve of your post, because it sounds like a strong collectivist wrote it (no offense intended if you're not ).

I am a rugged invididualist... I just don't think young people are smart enough, mature enough, or capable of making their own decisions as an individual. They are too selfish and short sighted. The problem I have is that stupid young people interrupt MY life by being destructive, loud, obnoxious, irritating, etc.... The point is to live your life without disrupting others. Individualism makes sense when people are capable of acting as a responsible individual. Youths tend to not be responsible for their own actions.

4. Students do not account for a disproportionate amount of crime. How many children do you see in prisons/jails/detention camps compared to adults?

Well here's the one problem with this argument...  so many of the kids get away with crime because they are not tried as adults and cannot be held accountable for their own actions because they are too immature. As shown in the link above, youth account for much more of the crimes than the remainder of the population. Youth have been repeatedly shown to cause more violent crimes, use guns, abuse drugs, and cause property damage than any other age group per capita. Youth ARE NOT mature enough to lead their own lives... on that same token, the system is designed to allow kids a second chance for youthful mistakes due to their inexperience.

---

Also, I have opinions about the comments about the nonattendance due to a de-compulsorization of schools.

If the students won't go to the schools unless they are forced to do so, I think there must be something wrong with the schools. People learn more from a school they want to go to than a school they don't want to go to.quote>

Well here's another sign of maturity... you have to things you don't like... its part of growing up and being mature. Many of us would live to have 3 months off in the Bahamas in the dead of winter but come on, thats a dream 95% will never see prior to retirement. But we don't demand a change in the system because we feel oppressed... its how it is. Most adults will say they didn't like school, but most of those adults will also say that they are glad they got an education. Students don't see the road far ahead, but whats happening next weekend.

---

On a final note, I say:

Adults have freedoms and rights with reasonable limits. Why not children and teens? Except for experience and size, teens are no different than adults. What difference is there between a 17 and 18 year old in perceptions and instincts? Why should we hold our students in a totalitarian grip only to release them from it when they reach a certain age?

Is that not discrimination of the highest order?

Also, blacks did not get civil rights waiting for whites to hand it over to them on a silver platter. Why should students?quote>

There naturally has to be a cutoff point, and the point at which you are eligible to vote/serve in the military is a legit point in life to draw that cutoff point. But while you are in school at an age where most are not employed full time, where they tend to act very short sighted, rules must be enforced. This isnt discrimination... with your logic, we should allow babies to do as they please whats the difference between a 16 and a 17 year old, how about considering 13 year olds...  This isn't discrimination, its socialization, you have to learn how to operate in a society that doesn't infringe on everyone else's ability to live uninterrupted. Having "grown up", teens and adults are NOT the same, nor are children and adults. 

And when you say children and teens are the same as adults except for experience... thats the problem. Experience is PART of maturing. You don't just flip a switch and you're mature. You must experience things, thats part of life. Most teens haven't experienced much. Experience is part of becoming a strong individual capable of taking care of yourself.

Teens are not adults, period. I'm still very young, but I know my place and I provide for myself and others. I put other people before me. That has nothing to do with being a collectivist, but as an individual, I have matured to the point to realize that is what I want to do with my life; to help others and raise a family.

[hawkpride147 1]

@Patricius Maximus

you're coming across as a junior high student who got in trouble for playing hooky and goofing off in class and mouthing off to teachers...

now i'm not saying you are, but that's what your points make it sound like. i want to leave you with something my economics teacher in high school always said...freedom does not equal lawlessness...basically he meant that the laws and rules we have are intended to make us more free and better equipped for life....

you might want to wait a few years and rethink your position on what you said...

[coolotter88 2]

Saltandsauce, think of how jacked you'd become if you kept getting detentions every day.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

In school you cannot use a mobile phone, get used to it, if you work in something like Retail it is the same.quote>

First of all, you are not trying to sell something in school. That is not the purpose of it. Secondly, I have observed that most people do not use a cell phone in class. The vast majority think the usage rule is a good thing. However, it is stepping over the line for a student to be suspended for a cell phone falling to the floor when it is turned off.

 

School uniform, ever heard of a work uniform, they exist.quote>

Yes, they exist. The difference is that with work, you have a choice of where you work. You can change jobs. It is different with compulsory schooling.
Also, it makes no sense to me to waste tax money on school uniforms when they don't have any significant advantages over wearing their own clothes.

A lot of kids complain because they are not allowed to talk in lesson, I genuinely cannot understand peoples gripe with the rule!quote>

Most that I've seen complain of teachers who demand that they remain absolutely silent during work. I've heard far fewer complaints of teachers who allow you to whisper if you need to. Besides, isn't a little discussion healthy for any group of people?

I lived in Malaysia for five years and was educated in primary school over there. I speak from personal experience when I say that judicious applications of a rattan cane to the hand (and they weren't soft strokes either!) did me absolutely no harm. In fact, I credit canings for having instilled in me a greater work ethic.quote>

Assaulting children, in my view, is not discipline. Remember my point about being equal under the law? Well, if if those Malaysians struck an adult 10 times with a cane, it would be prosecuted as assault.

Interesting. If your view prevailed, I could be growing a massive haul of weed in my house underground (not easily identifiable) safe in the knowledge that no one could touch it seeing as it's on MY property and the plants were MY property and the water and electricity were MY property?quote>

Well, as far as I'm concerned, you can grow all the weed you want. It's when you snuff it or sell it that is illegal.

The same thinking could be applied to slaves (human property), neglected animals (animal property) and you would ostensibly end up with the same situation.quote>

I am against slavery, contrary to what you may think, because claiming that you "own" the person and you can do what you want with them is an infringement on their personal rights.

Forgive me for saying so, but again, I believe that your post and the points you raised right at the start are reminiscent of a focus on ME ME ME as opposed to society in general in today's day and age.quote>

Basically correct. I think that the "society" should protect individual rights over "collective" rights. I don't know about you, but I would not sacrifice my freedom to serve some kind of superior collective. After all, isn't individual rights the base foundation of democracy?

Not allowing teachers to do their jobquote>

Their job is to teach their subject matter. Nothing more, nothing less.

hauling parents off to gaol for laying a finger on their childquote>

They can touch their children (ie. lay a finger). But I think that they do not have the right to assault their children, any more than they can assault a neighbor.

A failure to rein in anti-social behaviour for fear of infringing on their personal rightsquote>

The behavior and/or attitudes is not the problem. The problem is when it translates into criminal behavior. In that case, they must treat it like any other crime.

entertaining prisoners like gods in case they sue for "mistreatment" etc.quote>

I do not propose to entertain prisoners. However, the prisoners must be kept healthy and given enough to eat, drink, etc. But that's another discussion.

All these problems are symptomatic of a failure to see that I am also part of SOCIETY (pretty catchy =P), which gives rise to a whole pandora's box of other social ills.quote>

Just because I am not a collectivist does not mean that I am a failure or something of that nature. You make a mistake of assuming that people who don't see themselves as a subordinate to society are abnormal. Indeed, the slaves would have never been liberated by a collective way of thinking. Their individual rights were thrown aside, but they served the "economy". If that thinking prevailed, they'd still be on the plantations harvesting tobacco as we speak.

Maturity is not very subjective. Younger people tend to think that it is a subjective term. If you can function, pay your own bills under your own accord without protest and without whining and getting stuff down on their own, that is maturity.quote>

That is competence. As for the protesting, it is fine to protest if the company is gouging prices unfairly or not giving service for your money, etc.

I think maturity is subjective because there are almost as many measures as people, and that is a 'subjective term', something that cannot be measured objectively and without bias.

Young people don't hold doors open these days and they don't see what the big deal is and THAT is my biggest pet peeve. Teens who think that their time is of the utmost important over others.quote>

Idon't mean to personally attack you, but, Well, what can you do about others' attitudes. If they won't hold the door open, perhaps you could ask them. Or is it too much work to ask another person to do something that they should do themselves just because of the subjective term of maturity?

Really if you are mature, you don't really need to define it. Its not something you need to go out and prove or strive to. You just are.quote>

Again, my definition of a subjective term.

Most teens can't even run their own finances, locate Iraq on a map, understand the purpose of a credit score, what the appropriate amount of your budget should be spent on housing, what a co-pay is, etc etc etc.quote>

That is competence, not maturity.

Individualism makes sense when people are capable of acting as a responsible individual. Youths tend to not be responsible for their own actions.quote>

Any Human is capable of being responsible. And, how do you think that imposing collectivism on youth will help them?

Well here's another sign of maturity... you have to things you don't like... its part of growing up and being mature.quote>

You can keep your own signs, but the point is you should not live in misery as a part of growing up. I think that sometimes you have to do things you don't like in the short term in order for a favorable outcome in the long term; a principle used in life and warfare, etc.

This isn't discrimination, its socialization, you have to learn how to operate in a society that doesn't infringe on everyone else's ability to live uninterrupted. Having "grown up", teens and adults are NOT the same, nor are children and adults.quote>

1) Call it what you will, but the ability to live uninterrupted is one of the components of individualism.
2) It's kind of like men and women -- the general opinion is that they are equal, but at the same time differences are recognized.

And when you say children and teens are the same as adults except for experience... thats the problem. Experience is PART of maturing. You don't just flip a switch and you're mature.quote>

Um, that's more or less what I said. Also, I do agree. You do not become a full-fledged biological adult at the flick of the switch. If people did, there would be no such thing as adolescense or puberty.

Teens are not adultsquote>

Well, anyone can say that teens are not adults because:
1) They look different.
2) They are biologically different.
3) They may have less experience.

The only reason they have less experience is because they have not lived as long as most adults have. And that is something they cannot control -- how long they've lived.

you're coming across as a junior high student who got in trouble for playing hooky and goofing off in class and mouthing off to teachers... quote>

I did not get into much trouble in Junior High School. I did not "play hooky" in Junior High School. If I get your meaning, I was not absent without reason.
Also, I did NOT goof off in class. I always try to keep to my own business if possible. In the schools, it was attempting to get an education.
Lastly, I do not know what you consider to be "mouthing off", since just about everyone you meet has a different definition. However, I did not talk to teachers and others in an excessively sarcastic and derogatory tone of voice.

Also, if you will consult the rules:

2. Be polite. Please post civilly. Speak to others as you would if they were standing in front of you.quote>

In other words, no personal attacks and please stay on topic here.

you might want to wait a few years and rethink your position on what you said... quote>

Unlike flip-flopping, apologetic politicians I stand by what I say and I do not apologize at the flick of a switch and retract what I say. I do not regret one word that I have said in my life. Therefore, your statement concerning me is irrelevant.

 i want to leave you with something my economics teacher in high school always said...freedom does not equal lawlessness...basically he meant that the laws and rules we have are intended to make us more free and better equipped for life....quote>

Correct. Also, Lawlessness does not equal freedom.

Lastly, when the "rules and regulations that are intended to make us more free and better equipped for life" do not serve their purpose of making us more free and better equipped for life, it is time to change them so they carry out their purpose, wouldn't you agree

I'll leave it at that.

- Patricius Maximus