The School Rights and Discrimination Thread

[Patricius Maximus 236]

This thread was created for the purpose of having a civil debate on school rights and discrimination. Are children treated unfairly in schools? Discriminated against? Are the schools totalitarian, dictatorial, or fair?

Discuss your opinions and information here. This thread's topic falls under the broader umbrella of youth rights, but keep the discussion here confined to school issues.

Please discuss the issue here civilly in accordance to the Current Events rules.

This thread came into existence out of a request in the thread about a recent hoax in which two police officers informed students that their best friends were dead because of drunk driving. It was later debunked.

In short, my opinion was this:

The entire school board, the teachers, the 2 police, and the office staff and principal of the school need to be thrown in jail for 50 years for this outrage.

The school system does NOT protect the children as much as they say they do. This incident proves that. If the children did something like this, they would be severely punushed. 2 police did this -- they were hardly dealt with at all.quote>

Also, please bring any news pertaining to this topic here, in a centralized topic for everyone's convenience.

My opinion on school rights is, in short, this:

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized.
2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc.
3. Attendance requirements for primary and secondary schools need to be equal, at 85% of the year.
4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.
5. All constitutional rights apply to school children as well as adults, including free speech and press.
6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.
7. Abolish in-school suspension and detention, as this is the equivalent of holding a man in jail without a conviction.

In a nutshell, have the school staff check on the power of the students, and the students check on the power of the adults, so the power of each is balanced and not excessive.

Lastly, I repeat, civilly discuss school rights and discrimination here, state your opinions, and civilly debate them if you wish.

- Patricius Maximus

[krbe 193]

I like you dictatorial take on the police officers. It's fair, balanced, and in no way excessive. I just don't get it why people don't recognise this.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

My opinion on school rights is, in short, this:

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized.quote>

Much as a lot of students would like this, it isn't a good idea.  We'd become the laughing stock of the world because the vast majority of students wouldn't go to school unless their parents forced them too.

2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc.quote>

I concur.  If it's acceptable for a teacher to miss class x number of days a year, it should be acceptable for the students to do the same.  Students have lives too.

3. Attendance requirements for primary and secondary schools need to be equal, at 85% of the year.quote>

Why 85%?  Why not 70% or 90% or something else?

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.quote>

As great as that sounds, it won't work.  There are certain things that you can't really give to the students to take a vote on, because if they vote on it, they'll most certainly shoot it down, and it's not something that they should be able to shoot down - like the academic honesty standards.

5. All constitutional rights apply to school children as well as adults, including free speech and press.quote>

Agreed.

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.quote>

I thought they already made it illegal for a teacher to hit a student.

[Mellophonius 9]

Wow I like your points. I've often felt like the school system was an entirely separate society from the national government. Students are citizens too!

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

My opinion on school rights is, in short, this:

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized.

2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc.

3. Attendance requirements for primary and secondary schools need to be equal, at 85% of the year.

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.

5. All constitutional rights apply to school children as well as adults, including free speech and press.

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.

7. Abolish in-school suspension and detention, as this is the equivalent of holding a man in jail without a conviction.

In a nutshell, have the school staff check on the power of the students, and the students check on the power of the adults, so the power of each is balanced and not excessive.

Lastly, I repeat, civilly discuss school rights and discrimination here, state your opinions, and civilly debate them if you wish.

- Patricius Maximus

quote>

Interesting.

My opinions on your opinions:

1. Ever thought that Noone or few people would attend?

2. I see. Usually when half term happens here, there will be teachers attending school to have meetings, mark stuff etc. Also Teachers in Britain sometimes stay more than 4 hours after school has finished (I assume it's the same everywhere else). Would you have it so that teachers would have to go home at the same time as pupils or pupils go home at 6 pm?

3. Maybe I'm missing something but you just said attendence should be decompulsorised? I don't know how different the Canadian system is to the UK but in Britain if you/ your child is ill then you usually phone up the school on the same day and at the very least provide a note for absense. If you want to go on holiday out of school holidays then you need to ask the school's permission and say how long for etc.

4. Does that count for all schools? Would 5 year olds have to vote on whether they are allowed free milk?

5. Okay to an extent but there would have to be limits.

6. That happened in the UK many years back (I don't know when).

7. Without conviction? If you haven't done your homework and you were warned 1 week before when that homework was set that you would get a 1 hour detention, then you get a 1 hour detention.

Teachers need to be more powerful than students. I don't see why they wouldn't need to be. After all they are paid professionals that are supposed to sculpt people's minds for well over a decade.

[beebs 129]

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized.quote>

For what reason, then, would students attend school?

2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc.quote>

So school attendance needs to be de-compulsorized, but teachers and students need to be equal under the law in issues like attendance requirements?

3. Attendance requirements for primary and secondary schools need to be equal, at 85% of the year.quote>

This I agree with.. here in Alberta, in order for you to get your high school diploma, you need 90% attendance or higher for the Gr. 12 year.

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.quote>

It would be great for the student.. unfortunately, school isn't always designed for the students comfort.

5. All constitutional rights apply to school children as well as adults, including free speech and press.quote>

Agreed.

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.quote>

It isn't already where you are?

7. Abolish in-school suspension and detention, as this is the equivalent of holding a man in jail without a conviction.quote>

Are you saying it would be alright for a student to... I dunno.. throw yogurt all over the floors of the school and have no punishment? Be excessively loud and rude to the teacher in class?

[coolotter88 2]

Corporal punishment is allowed if the parents give permission, at least, here in New Jersey it is.

50 years in jail is ridiculous, like, 500 times worse than the hoax they set up.

students don't get any rights because they're not ready for it. Although it may be cool to have a miniature government like a Congress, courts, etc. it isn't going to work.

There is nothing wrong with the system right now in dealing with students who break the rules. Suppose a student assaulted another student (it has happened a couple times in my school, and it isn't a bad school), detention if not a suspension is warranted, and how can you say they are not convicted when this happens in the cafeteria with 1/3 of the school watching?

or suppose this other time, when a student took down the school network and cost the school system thousands of dollars to pay the network administrator extra to repair the damage? the school administrators had an extensive investigation and ended up finding the culprits.

[hailman 1]

Wow. I understand that as a student, you have strong and valid feelings about your school environment. I applaud your outspoken approach to this topic. However, I think your opinions are best left as opinions--where they will likely be most effective anyway--rather than as new rules. I agree with most of the responses here, (Beebs hits it closest to home for me,) i.e. disagreement with #1, concurrence with #2, etc. I think #4 and #7 are very poor ideas, but I can understand why a respectful young person with good intentions might overlook the flaws in their proposal. You see, I presume that you are the "exception" and not the "rule" when it comes to model student characteristics. In ideal situations--where all students attended school faithfully, solely to LEARN in a safe, "democratic" environment, all of your rules would probably be positively effective. Unfortunately, based on my experience working with the public school system for the past 4 years, most students would much sooner push their own agenda as opposed to considering what is right and just for the school when it comes to making important decisions about their education. Certain rules are in effect because, in most countries, if you are of "school-age," you are not legally an adult--at least not entirely. While that may seem unfair, it's really for the youth's own protection. Sometimes certain rules seem unfair, but later, when you're an adult, you learn to appreciate what the rules taught you--or, perhaps if you still feel the rules were unjust, as a parent, you can actually do something about it to change things for your own children, since you've earned the rights and responsibilities of an adult.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: hailman Sometimes certain rules seem unfair, but later, when you're an adult, you learn to appreciate what the rules taught you--or, perhaps if you still feel the rules were unjust, as a parent, you can actually do something about it to change things for your own children, since you've earned the rights and responsibilities of an adult.quote>

Thank you for being able to see this.  My aunt was a school teacher, and she was among the masses that blindly looked at the rules and mindlessly uttered the "it's for your own good" reasoning even when it was becoming increasingly obvious some of the stuff they had for rules was completely pointless.

[fukuda 351]

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized.quote>

Basic and secondary education are compulsory, so is attendance; you can hardly pass your exams without attending class, usually, school students lack the work discipline and study techniques that older students can use at university or certain colleges where attendance is not compulsory, so I see no reasonable reason to enforce it.

2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc.quote>

"law"? Attendance issues are not treated by law, they are usually treated by internal regulations. Anyway, a lot of teachers that don't attend class for a long time have cases of depression due to their own students, my class managed to send home a teacher, the substitute of the latter one and the substitute of the substitute.....

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.quote>

We had student representatives elected by students that voted all policies, much like actual democracy.

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.quote>

If it's not abolihed, it must be abolished. Actually, the rates of teachers being agressed by students and/or their parents are skyrocketing here.

7. Abolish in-school suspension and detention, as this is the equivalent of holding a man in jail without a conviction.quote>

Ahem... Ever been in jail?

[Patricius Maximus 236]

Are you saying it would be alright for a student to... I dunno.. throw yogurt all over the floors of the school and have no punishment? Be excessively loud and rude to the teacher in class?quote>

 

No, it would not be alright, just as it wouldn't be for anybody else. I do not propose that students do whatever harmful act they want. I did not say that. I just said that certain punishments are unfair -- not all of them. I think that suspension is a more just punishment -- you are simply not permitted to enter the school because you committed a certain act. It is holding people someplace against their will at the arbitrary authority of an administration that is unfair.

students don't get any rights because they're not ready for itquote>

coolotter88, where do you draw the line where students get rights? 10, 12, 18, 21? If they don't have any rights, are they slaves? Serfs? Sub-Human?

There is nothing wrong with the system right now in dealing with students who break the rules. Suppose a student assaulted another student (it has happened a couple times in my school, and it isn't a bad school), detention if not a suspension is warranted, and how can you say they are not convicted when this happens in the cafeteria with 1/3 of the school watching?quote>

I did not state that they should go without any punishment, especially when hundreds of people saw the student assault the person. As I said above, I believe a conviction ought to be necessary if a student is to be held in a place against their will, not unlike a jail.

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.quote>

 

It would be great for the student.. unfortunately, school isn't always designed for the students comfort.quote>

Then what is it? If it is not a facility that educates the children to be free citizens of their nation then what is it? A prison camp? 

Also, when I said "any matter that affects the student" I did not include academic honesty standards in that group. It would be like stricter rules, more power to the teachers or administration; that sort of thing. 

I also stated it would be a balance to the power of the teachers/administration. 

In addition, I did not state that the students would act like a congress or court. Rather they would act more like the citizens when they have a referendum or something of a similar nature. The students would act like citizens in a court. They would comprise the juries, not the judges.

So school attendance needs to be de-compulsorized, but teachers and students need to be equal under the law in issues like attendance requirements?quote>

They would be equal under the law for those who enroll for a year -- not unlike when you enroll in a private school.

7. Without conviction? If you haven't done your homework and you were warned 1 week before when that homework was set that you would get a 1 hour detention, then you get a 1 hour detention.quote>

I think that detention would be unwarranted -- failing on the assignment would be punishment enough. But, that's just my opinion.

7. Without conviction? If you haven't done your homework and you were warned 1 week before when that homework was set that you would get a 1 hour detention, then you get a 1 hour detention.quote>

I just picked that number, since that appears to be a good one for the jurisdictions that use it.

Also, hailman put it best when he said:

However, I think your opinions are best left as opinions--where they will likely be most effective anyway--rather than as new rules.quote>

I agree. They are only opinions -- not legislative proposals. So don't go bashing them like you would in a congress or something similar.

[krbe 193]

You seem to think that school is a concentration camp for kids. It isn't. And it's not for their comfort either, it's for education. Getting students to vote on matters concering them; what do you expect the outcome will be? Is there referendas everytime there is a change in policy that concerns the average citizens? Should new students automatically start under the current regime, or should it all start over again? Rights are, as said, granted when you're ready for it, usually when you're between 16 and 18. If anyone tries to "democratise" school, you'll only see parents with resources flocking to private schools, while the rest are left with "powerbalanced" entities that don't achieve much.

[Duke87 1,070]

One key problem I find in a lot of things, academic and otherwise, is that anti-discrimination efforts often fail because they either try to skew things to make members of various races look equal when in that particular environment statistically they are not, or because they effectively turn into discrimination against whites.

Yes, that's what affirmative action is. Discrimination against whites. Because it leads to situations where the most qualified person for the job is white but he doesn't get the job because the employer opts to give it to someone of race x instead so as to try and maintain a proportion of race x in his company similar to that of the outside population. By what twisted definition of the word is that "fair"? It's not. Fair means you have to be colorblind. No favoring whites, but no favoring members of any other race either. And if that means you end up with a disproportionate number of members of one race in your workforce, so be it.

Now, I used employers and working here, but the same could be said of private schools and colleges.

Now, as for the skewing things part, a real world example, from my own town of Stamford, Connecticut. There are two public high schools in the town:

Given the geography and relative population density of the town, you might think the districts for them would be drawn something like this:

Yet, this is not the case. The actual districts look something like this:

And if you think that's bad, look at the map of the elementary school districts.

Now, the question of course is, why would you do this? Why have kids going to the school on the other side of town instead of the one that's much closer to them? Well, let's consider something else here. The northern part of town is rather affluent and almost exclusively white. The southern parts of town are less affluent and much more mixed, with the south end (the point to the west of Shippan in blue) and the west side (to the west of there, mostly orange) being the "bad parts of town", almost exclusively minorities. I bet you can see where I'm going with this.

If the district boundary was drawn in a way that made sense, Westhill High would be mostly white and Stamford High would be mostly minorities. And that wouldn't look too good, now would it? But there's more: statistically, the kids from the affluent white north part of town tend to do better academically than the kids from the more working class southern parts of town. Meaning that the "white" school would have kids doing really well, and the "minority" school would have kids doing not so well. And that would look really bad! It would, of course, lead to allegations that the town is trying to segregate its schools, and that the school with the white kids is a better quality facility than the school with the minority kids. Neither would be true, but because no one wants to believe that kids from different ethnicities are not performing equally due to differing aptitude, that would be the conclusion that was reached.

So, school buses and cars travel further than necessary and burn more gas than necessary, and some kids have to drive right past the other school to get to their school. And why? So that each school can have the same racial demographics.

I, for one, think that's just insanity. The priorities are more than a little out of order here. Who gives a damn if the schools aren't racially balanced? The town isn't racially balanced! So you'd expect that! How about drawing the line in a manner that minimizes student's travel distance and leaving it at that, eh?

No, that can't happen. Because priority number one is that we have the same number of black kids and white kids in each school*. Efficiency of operation can come second.

*headdesk*

*Note: when I give this rant in real life, I tend to say this part in a much more off color and profane manner.

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: krbe You seem to think that school is a concentration camp for kids. It isn't. And it's not for their comfort either, it's for education. Getting students to vote on matters concering them; what do you expect the outcome will be? Is there referendas everytime there is a change in policy that concerns the average citizens? Should new students automatically start under the current regime, or should it all start over again? Rights are, as said, granted when you're ready for it, usually when you're between 16 and 18. If anyone tries to "democratise" school, you'll only see parents with resources flocking to private schools, while the rest are left with "powerbalanced" entities that don't achieve much.quote>

I agree with this gentleman.

[fukuda 351]

If anyone tries to "democratise" school, you'll only see parents with resources flocking to private schools, while the rest are left with "powerbalanced" entities that don't achieve much.quote>

That's exactly what happened with our public school, but don't say it too loud, it's politically incorrect!

Yes, that's what affirmative action is. Discrimination against whites.quote>

Well, it's called "positive" discrimination here

Because it leads to situations where the most qualified person for the job is white but he doesn't get the job because the employer opts to give it to someone of race x instead so as to try and maintain a proportion of race x in his company similar to that of the outside population.quote>

It doesn't happen with races here, but it happens with "nationalities" and "languages" (both invented or not)

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.

- Patricius Maximus

quote>

 

So we base school policys on what 6-15 year olds think?

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.

- Patricius Maximus

quote>

 

So we base school policys on what 6-15 year olds think?

quote>

Well, in a sense, this should be done anyway.  Whatever happened to the idea of the courtesy of at least seeking the input of the people affected by it?  I'm not saying school officials would actually have to be bound by the decisions of the student body, but they could at least show that they care by asking the students what they think about it.  Most schools don't do this, and I'd wager most students don't consider this even remotely fair.  And, tbh, it isn't - it's another example of the Baby Boomer generation reverting back to the things they swore they'd never do that their parents did.  This would be the general idea that children should be seen and not heard, or otherwise known as "when we want your opinion, we'll give it to you" mentality.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Then again,they are childern and in a general sense they dont have any idea what thier best interests are. It might work for highschool age but not younger then that.

Oh Just thought of something

Do Universitys get input into school policys from the students?

They have rules that are supposed to be followed and when those rules are broken you can be expelled or suspened.

Think any university would allow the students to vote weather or not drinking is allowed in dorms?

[Patricius Maximus 236]

If anyone tries to "democratise" school, you'll only see parents with resources flocking to private schools, while the rest are left with "powerbalanced" entities that don't achieve much.quote>

What have the adult policymakers accomplished? Name one good thing that has come out of public schools recently.

So we base school policys on what 6-15 year olds think?quote>

Why not? They're the ones that are affected by the policy.

Also, this is a similar thing to what Sudbury schools practice, and 80% of their students go on to graduate college. Whereas in the United States, for example, they're struggling to graduate from high school.

Which produces more intelligent people? I think the Sudbury one does, based on the info I've seen.

The policymakers are trying to produce better educated students, but they don't consider alternatives to their system.

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

If anyone tries to "democratise" school, you'll only see parents with resources flocking to private schools, while the rest are left with "powerbalanced" entities that don't achieve much.quote>

What have the adult policymakers accomplished? Name one good thing that has come out of public schools recently. quote>

Hmm, wait, students?

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

If anyone tries to "democratise" school, you'll only see parents with resources flocking to private schools, while the rest are left with "powerbalanced" entities that don't achieve much.quote>

What have the adult policymakers accomplished? Name one god thing that has come out of public schools recently.

So we base school policys on what 6-15 year olds think?quote>

Why not? They're the ones that are affected by the policy.

quote>

 

Because as i said earlier children have no idea whats in thier best intrest.

A 6 year old will vote to finger paint all day.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

What have the adult policymakers accomplished? Name one god thing that has come out of public schools recently.quote>

Me.

[beebs 129]

So we base school policys on what 6-15 year olds think?quote>

Why not? They're the ones that are affected by the policy.

quote>

So let the inmates run the asylum, so to speak? I mean, my school had a "students union" which passed on students opinions to the principal and such.. but by no means did it have any power in school policy decisions. Nor should it.

[Voar Tok 4]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Oh Just thought of something

Do Universitys get input into school policys from the students?quote>

Depends on what the policy is.  If it's in regards to academic stuff, then no, they aren't going to be asking for student input on if the policy is a good idea or not - usually, anyway.

They have rules that are supposed to be followed and when those rules are broken you can be expelled or suspened.

Think any university would allow the students to vote weather or not drinking is allowed in dorms?quote>

Yes, actually, I do think universities would allow students to vote on stuff like that.  I know for a fact that there are universities out there that do, in fact, allow students to vote on issues like that and other ones as equally outrageous or even more so.  Now, I'll cite examples from my university - a state university - which could be said to be a little more lax in their standards.  But before I do that, I'll cite an example from an Ivy League school whose students did something considerably more outrageous than that.  Behold, the Princeton Nude Olympics.

Nude Olympics - annual (nude and partially nude) frolic in Holder Courtyard during the first snow of the winter. Started in the early 1970s, the Nude Olympics went co-ed in 1979 and gained much notoriety with the American press. For safety reasons, the administration banned the Olympics in 2000.quote>

It's not being done anymore, but the fact that it ran for close to twenty something years meant that the administration didn't really object to it.  And most people would be more shocked by that than a bunch of freshman getting wasted in a dorm room.

Now, at the university I attend.  There are academic policies on students, and there are the student life policies, and both of them should be looked at. 

In the realm of academic policies, they don't usually ask the students what they think about them.  I can guarantee you that no students are ever going to be on the boards that decide what determines academic dishonesty.  However, when a student is brought before an academic dishonesty trial, it is a violation of that student's rights if the five member "jury" doesn't have two students on it.  These are the people that will determine if the student is innocent or guilty, and if guilty, what the punishment will be - and it's against the rights of the student on trial if there are not two other students on there.

Now, about stuff like student life policies.  We have a student government association, and the good people at SGA are habitually working to improve student's rights.  Not terribly long ago, the university's board of regents tried to raise the tuition rates, and the people in SGA raised such holy hell about it that the regents backed off.

On the issue of drinking, my campus is a dry campus, meaning that you can't just walk around outside with an open beer in your hand.  But no one had to ask for the right to drink in the dorms - they just gave it to the students.  Despite the fact that the university is a dry campus, you can organize a student event, get university land to do it on, and serve alcohol if you want to, and campus police can't touch you over it.  There are some regulations on how you have to do it in order to keep campus police off, but it's really easy and straightforward.  (Tell them that you want to serve alcohol and provide a non-alcoholic drink other than water - you could serve beer and tea and you'd be fine).

In fact, the housing dept built an apartment complex for all the frats and sororities to have their houses at, and they specifically made it off-campus so that they wouldn't have to worry about dealing with the majority of university policies on alcohol.

We have a policy board on campus that deals solely with the food services on campus, and since Aramark is responsible for that, they basically communicate with Aramark on behalf of the university's students.  I know a few of the students on that committee, and there are two things that I'd like to point out about it.  First off, there are more students on that committee than university staff, and secondly, the students on that committee have managed to do what the staff couldn't - get Aramark by the ear and have them on beck and call.  (Aramark has a very lucrative deal with the university and they'll lose it if the people on this food services committee aren't happy - and lately, they haven't been happy).

And another example - I was recently selected to serve on the main committee involving the facilities primarily used for all student life functions.  There are more students on this committee than staff, the chairman of the board is a student, the people who do all of the grunt work of the committee are university staff and not students, and on top of all of that, the vote of the director of student life facilities doesn't count for anything more than mine, and I'm brand new to the committee while he's been on it for years now.

And this whole idea of putting more power into the hands of the students is just in its infancy.  Hell, a few months ago, we had a bunch of students who were protesting some policy of the university go and put a coffin in front of the door to the president's office, blockading it so that no one could enter or leave until it was removed.  When the university president was asked what she wanted to do about the students disrupting her office, she was reported to have turned to her aide, looked at them and said "do about this?  this is a university.  this stuff is supposed to happen."  Not terribly long ago, she held a town hall meeting just to get feed back from the students on what policies and programs they thought the university should start doing or go back and look at revising.

So, my point of all of this - universities - good universities  - actually care about what their students think.  High schools for sure, and probably middle schools, should at least ask what their students think about things before going and blindly marching into them.  It doesn't mean that they have to act on it, but at the very least, it's the considerate thing to do.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

My opinion on school rights is, in short, this:

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized. quote>

A very bad idea.  We need people to be more educated, not less educated.   An uneducated person in the world today isn't going to have a chance at a very good life and will miss a lot of opportunities.

2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc. quote>

Okay, I've missed something here.  Back when I was a kid, attendance by teachers wasn't an problem.  Has it become one?   What other issues are you talking about?

3. Attendance requirements for primary and secondary schools need to be equal, at 85% of the year. quote>

What problem are we trying to solve here?

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote. quote>

As EB says, a 6 year old will vote to fingerpaint and drink chocolate milk all day.  This is not productive.

5. All constitutional rights apply to school children as well as adults, including free speech and press. quote>

Don't forget that adults have limitations on their constitutional rights too.  Yes, I have free speech but I don't have the right to exercise it in the middle of a courtroom, movie theater, or hospital (to name a few places).  Students are similar limited in that they can't exercise their free speech in the middle of class.

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.quote>

Where do you live?  That has been the case here for decades.

7. Abolish in-school suspension and detention, as this is the equivalent of holding a man in jail without a conviction.  quote>

Sitting in a classroom is not like being in jail.  If you need to be shown the difference, I'm sure that can be arranged.

 - - - - - -

Contrary to what some may think, I actually remember being in high school.   There were a lot of contradictory messages being given to students, especially the last few months of the senior year.   I was 18 : old enough to vote, drive a car, and drink beer.  But I needed a hall pass to go to the bathroom.  On some level, it was asinine. 

But, after you've been out of high school for a few years, you will realize that the whole thing was asinine in many ways.

We had a lot of fuss about students' rights.  One issue whether or not the school administration had the right to search students' lockers.  The school's point of view was they paid for the locker; it's on school property and they can search any part of school property that they want.  Which seemed grossly unfair to the students.

That policy, however, can be upheld legally.  It also gets extended into the workplace.  Most companies feel that they supply the computers and the network so they are free to read any emails that result.

I think some of your ideas, if implemented, would result in impractical or undesirable results.  but I give you credit for wanting to change the system.  Nothing ever improves unless some people are pushing to change things.

[Goldfish4209 9]

Ooo, opinions to comment on! Goodie goodie!

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized.quote>

Not a good idea. I'd trust only very few parents to homeschool, and if we decompulsorized, we'd have an even less educated public.

2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc.quote>

Yes. However, this should only apply on a day by day basis, not hour by hour.

3. Attendance requirements for primary and secondary schools need to be equal, at 85% of the year.quote>

Why? I don't see any benefit to this. Sure, having high attendance requirements is good, but why the same all around?

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.quote>

As long as it's not a referendum to extend the school year, or anything that makes a rhetorical vote.

5. All constitutional rights apply to school children as well as adults, including free speech and press.quote>

Yay. Constitutional rights in schools. This should have happened a long time ago.

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.quote>

Hasn't this been already done before?

7. Abolish in-school suspension and detention, as this is the equivalent of holding a man in jail without a conviction.quote>

While I agree that this is a totally useless form of punishment, wasting the time of both the student and the teacher, both of which would rather be somewhere else, how is this like holding someone without conviction? Most people who get ISSes and detentions have all done something "wrong", at least in the view of the teachers.

Lunch detentions, in school suspensions, out of school suspensions, and detentions, in my view, are inefficient and ineffective punishments. Sitting in a room with a teacher is more of a waste of time for both parties than a punishment, unless the teacher in question is intimidating or something.

Even something as ridiculous as having the offending student wear a "I DID X" sign for an hour a day or something would be more effective. Any ideas?

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

I almost got a detention because I was not sitting in my seat 5 minutes before the bell rung, but I was able to weasel my way out of it. There should be some kind of guideline on what conditions a detention should be given because some teachers are a little detention happy

[hym 358]

Regarding the "I did X" idea, a judge somewhere in the country sentenced a couple of people to one minute of shame (don't know the exact particulars) posted on YouTube for all the world to see.

While I'm at it, I'll offer my thoughts on the 7 points given in the first post.

1. School attendance needs to be de-compulsorized.quote>

Not a good idea, imo.  The number of people that would opt-out would be a rather significant chunk, and like it or not, if they want to amount to anything in life, they need some of the skills they are going to get from attending school.  I've spent my summer working with high school dropouts and college rejects; no one that wants a decent life wants to be in those individuals' position.  Those who don't go to school don't go to college, and those that don't go to college often regret it.

2. Students and teachers must be equal under the law, in issues like attendance requirements, etc.quote>

This is theoretically a good idea.  However, when college time comes, you'll probably find the gap between students' rights and professors' rights is even wider than at some school institutions.

3. Attendance requirements for primary and secondary schools need to be equal, at 85% of the year.quote>

Don't really have an opinion on this one.

4. Any issue of policy in the school that affects the students must first be approved by the students by a vote.quote>

This can be useful in some circumstances, but only goes so far.  Long-term though, I see this doing more harm than good.

5. All constitutional rights apply to school children as well as adults, including free speech and press.quote>

I agree.  Granted, some aspects of this wouldn't work well in reality, but it would be nice for dictatorial teachers to wake up and realize that their students have rights under the law also.  (Some teachers don't seem to get this concept and treat them as though they are simply physical objects.)

6. Abolish corporal punishment, and if it happens prosecute it as assault.quote>

I thought this had been abolished already.

7. Abolish in-school suspension and detention, as this is the equivalent of holding a man in jail without a conviction.quote>

In theory, it may seem this way, but in reality, there is no comparison.

I'd like to point something else out also.  As much as it stinks, the treatment that some students complain about is nothing compared to the rights that some college professors have.  Granted, most professors aren't allowed to be abusive to their students, but at the same time, they often have the freedom to do things that school teachers often can't, like kick you out of class after you've paid $1,000 bucks for it, and you don't get a refund.  I've never seen this personally, but I have heard of professors confiscating student property, sometimes keeping the property till well after the class is over; confiscating and then using student property to embarrass the student; intentionally failing students, thus ruining their GPA and subsequently destroying their scholarship qualifications, delaying their graduation, and ultimately costing them more money; and other such things. 

The fact is, a rather large chunk of the population doesn't care what happens to other people.  Part of becoming an adult is learning how to live with those kinds of people.

[hailman 1]

To jump slightly off-topic and onto my soapbox for a minute...

I commented earlier, and I see that most of us are in agreement in our views about the majority of Practicus' points. Now, despite my avatar, I'm not intending to act like some old geezer, but the underlying fact here is that Practicus has some good ideas, although they seem to be a bit clouded by the naivety of youth and inexperience... which, in my opinion, is a beautiful thing! I harbor a fair share of objections to Practicus' opinions--but the input from those who are older, or have more experience is what helps a young mind refine those opinions and generate a positive creative force that will ultimately serve to promote change and positive influence in the world around them. I applaud Practicus Maximus for being bold enough to state these opinions, and also humble enough to politely debate their criticism. Also, everyone else involved in this thread should be commended for keeping their criticisms positive. I love reading the forums here on Simtropolis, although I keep "quiet" most of the time. I have read some awfully rude remarks both in favor of, and against opinions of another member, and I am glad we've kept that out of this discussion.

Now, what I would like to see, is maybe someone else's "list of opinions." Yes. I'm stirring the pot!

I'll start with one of my own:

I think there should be more effective rules and consequences for driving on school property. I have worked with the public school system for a few years now, and High School parking lots are soooo dangerous! Kids drive recklessly and cause accidents all the time, but rarely is there any relevant consequence--like not allowing that kid to drive their car on school property anymore after they have injured another student with their car!

Discuss...

[mike_g91 0]

I agree with the detention one somewhat. My school, if your late to class, even one second with some teachers, you'll get a detention. Also i dont see how its fair, that teachers use the excuse ' waste my time, ill waste yours', and youre late 30 seconds maybe, you get detention for 45 minutes.