NAM General Discussion Thread

[+Guest]

Date: 5/16/2004 2:45:15 AM
Author:

Okay, I've read the whole thread, and I don't think I missed anything...

Why doesn't anyone seem interested in rail-over-road? For me, most of my rail is in a tight spot, but frequent road intersections and highway proximity make road-over-rail impossible, and sometimes lots would face the road-over-rail...but the rail line has all the room in the world for an overpass, since it crossing nothing but the roads it needs to go over. It has all the room it needs in its thin corridor.

So can I request rail-over-road, or is there a reason this has been abandoned?

quote>

The main reason people don't want this is because it's simply unrealistic. Toroca can explain it a lot better (he's the one who started the anti-rail-over-road thing, really), but in short, it's just not able to be done in a realistic way. And T7T's, glad to see you gettin right back to work!

[Arphaxad Locus 0]

Ah ha, I think I figured out how this whole thing's been working, the BAT. Now I see. Just a question, if I replace the ANT network, what will happen to all of the current ANT networks that I have in place? Will they dissapear?

[ardecila 124]

OK, 7. I scaled it down. But you can forget the high-capacity ramps. I could make them wider, but that'd be one ugly interchange. The highway feeders are almost 45 degrees to the highways already.

[joerg 280]

Add some legs and it will give it the idea of having height. Right now you could raise that thing a mile and it would still look abit flat becuase there is nothing showing us its height.

[Casper3141 60]

you know this has become new favorite thread

 

[the7trumpets 10]

That update looks great.  Just an idea to make the feeder ramps less angled, how about having the flyover ramps (going to the left from the driving direction) cut off separately before the flyunder ramps going to the right?  The result would look something like this (please excuse my ascii art):

 

+-----------------------------

|   |/

|  /|

| / |

V  /

|  /

| /

V

|

|

 

 

arghh...hopefully you get the idea.  I don't know how 'common' this is, but it might be more convincing than very short feeder ramps.  It's up to you guys, I'm just throwing out ideas .

[RodneyMullen03 5]

Aww man, if you needed pictures of the I-110/US-101 stack, why didn't y'all just ask me? I live in LA, and I have to say that True Crime is EXTREMELY innacurate with many of the streets and highways. The stacks are not usually like that. For instance, the 110 doesn't go that high when it's going over the 110 in real life. It never would, as the freeways were built years apart, so that wouldn't be possible. The only one that I can say is kinda accurate is the I-110 when it is going through Downtown LA. The whole jumble reminds me of the time we went on a field trip to Downtown LA in rush hour traffic:). Oh yeah, and also, I don't recall the I-110 and US-101 crossing. It turns into State Road 110 when it gets past the 10. It has something to do with Pasadena, but it makes really sharp turns and ends up in Pasadena. Also, the 10 and the 105 NEVER cross. Both are East/West freeways. And the 105 has the Metro Green Line going in it's median, and I don't know if that's possible to pull off. Oh yeah, and the 105/110 doesn't exactly have high speed interchange lanes. The 110 is WAY below ground level, and the 105 goes over it, at about ground level. It's basically a huge stack extending from below ground level. Oh yeah, and it has a Busway stop and Green Line stop on it. Oh yeah, and one more thing, the 105 is the only freeway that has carpool lanes that lead to other freeways, even though it's the shortest. I know that because I go the 110 every Sunday from church, and every time we go to Downtown LA:). And I'd just like to say that the 1-105/I-110 interchange is right smack in the middle of the ghetto(one of the on/offramps in the middle of it is Imperial Hwy. I'll let you use your imagination on that one.) Oh yeah, and good to see you back, T7T.

[Smurfer2 7]

Welcome back 7T7!

 

Good luck on SLR. I hope you are successful. 

 

Is it possible to increase the width of ANT? If you can, is it possible to make a highway with expressways in the middle? That would be a nice addition.

 

P.S. I apologize if some of my suggestions aren't possible, but it's late and I need to go to bed.

[Casper3141 60]

Date:5/17/2004 1:27:33 AM
Author:Smurfer2

Welcome back 7T7!

 

Good luck on SLR. I hope you are successful. 

 

Is it possible to increase the width of ANT? If you can, is it possible to make a highway with expressways in the middle? That would be a nice addition.

 

P.S. I apologize if some of my suggestions aren't possible, but it's late and I need to go to bed.

quote> 

why most sims wont use ANT network let alone an expressway in between it but it would be so sweet to see in the game i  sure as hell know i would use it

[+Guest]

Hi! I don't know anything about modding or creating a new transit network or anything... but I think it's fabulous that you guys are willing to take on a project like this. I love the idea of a ground-light rail type network. Also, another thing I have always REALLY wanted is diagonal streets. Would it ever be possible to turn this new network type into regular streets that would allow diagnoals, neighbor connections, and development?? I don't know if anyone else is with me on this but I think it would be truly awesome! Well, whatever you guys decide, keep up the good work!

[ardecila 124]

7: Great idea. I'd like to see what the readers think, since they're the ones who'll have to put up with it, but I think it shows promise. I'll try to incorporate it tomorrow.

Something I've seen on some stacks is that the flyovers start part-way down the corner ramps, moving the merge point away from the highway. Kurumi's diagram will show you what I mean.

I actually had supports on the larger version, but I decided to just redo them instead of scaling them. They weren't that great anyway.

Final plans: once I finish the shape/supports, I'm going to do cosmetic work, mainly to replicate the stack I'M most familiar with, I-295/I-90 stack at O'Hare airport. There really aren't any photos on the internet, but it's pretty typical. If anyone has any cosmetic suggestions, feel free to bring them up.

Not to be selfish. I'm really enjoying the progress on the ANT network. I'm particularly interested in the SLR idea. I could really use this as a ground component of the subway-elevated system. And if someone can come up with an highway overpass that goes over one direction, then SLR, then the other direction, that'd be pretty cool. We could have trains on highway medians.

[the7trumpets 10]

Perhaps this will just confuse more than it will help, but as much as I hate the unrealistic scale of the current cloverleaf, the flyover would look best if it looked roughly to scale with the current cloverleaf...eeek, I hate to admit that I'm suggesting we create something that is not completely to scale, but you know what I mean.  In game, they have to look like they 'belong' together.  But you knew that already

 

Hopefully I'll get some time in on this SLR testing thing soon.  Just gotta get this mix done .

 

 

To answer a coupple of questions, it is absolutely out of the question to make diagonal streets or increase the width of the unused network.  The drawing parameters are hardcoded into the exe.  So while it might be possible to create the tiles and rules for such a network, we could never draw it in.  Sorry

[Vlakhaas 13]

All I want to sya is ... good to see you here 7 ....

 

[Ryan B 35]

OMG - a stack!  Great job - looks good so far! 

[The Great Chozo 34]

I hope yall don't mind if I join in on the fun as well.

 

Red, about a month ago you sent me some Gmax scenes of a stack you were working on. I told you and Hayly that I would have one finished a month from then. Well I was a little off on the time, but I did finish it. I haven't posted it yet, so I figured I might as well do it now.

 

This was going to be for SimMars, but I guess it can be used for Rush Hour as well.

 

Well I added some touch up details today, but the majority of it was finished before I had to take time off for finals. All I did today was texture it.

 

Here are the shots:

 

 

 

 

(That shot was from a side angle looking toward the smaller ramps. If you saw this angle from above the highways would form an X.

 

Here is a preview render:

 

 

 

Well what do yall think?

I am still going to use this for SimMars, but if anyone wants to use it for a Rush Hour add on, let me know. I am well versed in how to slice, set up LOD's, and assign TGI's for our S3D Editor (which is otherwise known as Redlotus ).

 

Hope you enjoy.

 

TGC

[USA_Pride 49]

Here is a real life picture:

I-75 / I-696 Interchange (Metro-Detroit, Oakland County)

 

 

The only big difference is that the ramps go between the freeways instead of above of both in the rendering.

 

The only change I think you should make is to make one of the highway a ground-level highway instead of everything elevated.

[The Great Chozo 34]

USA

 

That was the Elevated - Elevated Intersection that I posted. I have a version where two Ground Highways intersect. I simply lowered it to the ground and removed any unnecessary columns, and then did a lot of vertex editing to adjust the height of the remaining columns. 

 

We can't intersect a ground highway with an elevated highway using a cloverleaf, (or at least I'm not aware of it if we can), so I wouldn't expect that type. BUT, I have some other version in the works, one of which is an elevated highway over a ground highway, with all the ramps in between the two like what you posted. I started this version just in case a miracle happens.

 

TGC

[Ryan B 35]

Whoa.  I like that, TGC.  Very nice!

[Trolca 15]

Date:5/18/2004 12:25:03 AM
Author:The Great Chozo

USA

 

That was the Elevated - Elevated Intersection that I posted. I have a version where two Ground Highways intersect. I simply lowered it to the ground and removed any unnecessary columns, and then did a lot of vertex editing to adjust the height of the remaining columns. 

 

We can't intersect a ground highway with an elevated highway using a cloverleaf, (or at least I'm not aware of it if we can), so I wouldn't expect that type. BUT, I have some other version in the works, one of which is an elevated highway over a ground highway, with all the ramps in between the two like what you posted. I started this version just in case a miracle happens.

 

TGC

quote>

 

Even if ground and elevated highways can't intersect using an interchange, one still could be at ground level while passing under the other as long as it's at the elevated level at the connection points. It'd basicly be the reverse of an interchange with two ground level highways which needs a small bridge even though all connection points are on the ground.

 

[ardecila 124]

Ardecila's interchange #2:



Anyone interested? I'm probably going to do it with an earth base.

[+Guest]

ardecila, I like it. Kind of weird with avenues, though.

[codyg1985 0]

The Great Chozo: That is a very nice stack you have there!

[HighRiser 6]

Now that is an outstanding stack. I like the elevated look. WWOOOOOOOWWW.

[ardecila 124]

Wow! Great job, Chozo! I like how you moved the flyover merge out onto the level ramps. That way, the flyovers don't have to curve so sharply. The ramps look a little narrow for SC4 scale, though. A freight truck navigating that thing wouldn't look that great. Are you going to put the Maxis-style supports on it? For SimMars, it looks great, but for most people's terrestrial highways, the supports look a little too Flash Gordon-y. But it still blows mine out of the water. I look forward to driving this thing.

iamrobk: I've always wanted to do this with avenues, only underground (but RedLotus proved we couldn't do such things underground). You can't make this kind of an intersection currently, so I figured I'd fill it in. I'd do it with highways, but I'd have to drop a lane to make it look good, reducing it to the capacity of an avenue interchange. I could do it with avenues, with a gray av texture. You could meld highways into it.

[mcarch 15]

The stack looks great. But something is a little strange about it... The columns are a little tall! Can they be shortened just a little... and there are so many of them! Maybe I am a little off because I have never seen one before... if so can someone show me a side picture of how tall and how many columns a real one has?

Otherwise it looks great!

[kassarc16 4]

(1st Post on New Comp)

Incredible!!!! I can't wait to see the finished project!!! What other types of intersections are people working on/thinking about?

[Briman 5]

Date: 5/16/2004 2:45:15 AM
Author:

Okay, I've read the whole thread, and I don't think I missed anything...

Why doesn't anyone seem interested in rail-over-road? For me, most of my rail is in a tight spot, but frequent road intersections and highway proximity make road-over-rail impossible, and sometimes lots would face the road-over-rail...but the rail line has all the room in the world for an overpass, since it crossing nothing but the roads it needs to go over. It has all the room it needs in its thin corridor.

So can I request rail-over-road, or is there a reason this has been abandoned?

quote>

But....wait a minute...........

For the sake of realism. Railroads are usually put under roads. In some instances you will find a rail over a road but in those intances the road is an underpass. Like the Marssat underpasses and overpasses.

In reality there is a reason for this in the real world. You see trains are big and heavy modes of transportation. Railroads dont like hills at all because it decreases efficiacy. Railroads are purposly built so that hills are conqured at the least acceptable grade. Two to 3 percent I think. A four to six percent grade would be unacceptable. Trains would never make it up them even if they are joined in the middle and at both ends with engines. Check out Microsoft Train Sim. In some areas of the country where a train has to go over a steep grade a roundabout (i think its called) is employed. This would be a section of track maintaining say a 3 % grade built in a circle to get up the hill. It can cross over itself and adds distance to the rail line....like miles. There is one in the desert of California and in central California. The first ever employed was in Penn. Where they had a huge mountain to get over. They employed many differnt methods until some engineer (building engineer came up with the Idea of a looping section of track which maintained grade and made it over the hill.It made it possible to cheaply transport goods from the midwest to the east coast.

In relation to SC4 rail over road is cool if the rails can maintain the flatest possible grade. This means the road has to go over or under the rails. If you will notice or have noticed, rail bridges are usually flat with basically no noticable grade change. Monorails or elevated trains the rules change some. For instance the train lengths arent as long. Carrying people is not as heavy as moving frieght. Never have I see a 100 car passenger train. Also monorails and elevated trains usually employ electric motors or magnets(Japan)...superconductivity... which as I said is cheaper for passenger transport (but still expensive).

So when thinking of building a rail bridge over a road it needs to be at the lowest grade possible. For the sake of realism and to add that the creations I have seen in this thread for rails over road,they are nice creations but not realistic as trains go.

This comment is in line with those who have said the stack interchange didnt look right due to elevations. It looked kinda flat.....you would never see a railroad going over a frewway interchange. But you would see an interchange go over a railroad. Im sure there are exceptions that could be brought to my attention. But still if you think about it the railroad is still the flattest part of the whole thing.

Ummm... thats why railroads have so many bridges ...to remain as flat as possible. The bridges are there for a specific purpose...to maintain grade....or lack of it.

[Casper3141 60]

Date:5/6/2004 7:29:57 AM
Author:Thalassicus

Would it be possible to make overpasses for this style?

 

 

 

If not, that's too bad...I still miss sunken highways

 

 

If that's not possible, can the length of the train overpass can be doubled? The change in grade is really steep. More like the slope on the el-monorail overpass would be great

quote> 

this is exactly what i would like to see...because you dont even want to look at the overpass and onramps i got when i tried to do a sunken highway....it was not cool

[The Great Chozo 34]

Date:5/18/2004 10:29:28 PM
Author:ardecila

Wow!  Great job, Chozo!  I like how you moved the flyover merge out onto the level ramps.  That way, the flyovers don't have to curve so sharply.  The ramps look a little narrow for SC4 scale, though.  A freight truck navigating that thing wouldn't look that great.  Are you going to put the Maxis-style supports on it?  For SimMars, it looks great, but for most people's terrestrial highways, the supports look a little too Flash Gordon-y.  But it still blows mine out of the water.  I look forward to driving this thing.

iamrobk: I've always wanted to do this with avenues, only underground (but RedLotus proved we couldn't do such things underground).  You can't make this kind of an intersection currently, so I figured I'd fill it in.  I'd do it with highways, but I'd have to drop a lane to make it look good, reducing it to the capacity of an avenue interchange.  I could do it with avenues, with a gray av texture.  You could meld highways into it.

quote>

Thanks Ardecilia.

I do like your avenue intersection, that is a really good idea.

I put the merge or diverge of the ramps on the ramps, because in real life that is most likely where they are. This is the case here, and many other places in Texas, and the US, so that was just a natural addition. (oh and BTW, the ramps aren't level where the merge is. Once the ramps diverge from the highway, they immediately start sloping up, and the spot of the ramp to ramp diverge is sloping upward as well. The part of the ramp immediately after the diverge area has different slopes as well, depending on how high that particular ramp needs to go. See the side view of the stack that I posted, you can tell this from that picture.)  Some stacks have ramps that are multi laned, but I would just have to lose a lane where in merges back to the highway for the game, so I figured I would just make them all single lane overpasses. It has to be kept as simple as possible, due to the process of getting in the game, but at the same time you have to still make it elegant, so I think I balanced the two very well. The poly count on this is actuall a lot lower than I thought it was going to be at the outset.

About the supports. I probably won't change them, but the textures will change. For the Mars version, I imagine that the concrete textures will remain the same, because that is the general color of the highways I have already made. However, I think what we are going to do is just change the textures of the lanes only on the SC4 highways, and then use those new ones for the Mars highways. Redlotus posted a picture of this somewhere in the SimMars forums. As for a Rush Hour version well, the textures will be the same. After this is sliced up and the LOD's remade, and everything else that has to be done to get it ready for editing, I will most likely send it to Red. On his end the textures will stripped off, and then he will reskin them. This is a pain in the butt, so he needs some serious credit for doing that. What will happen is that he will take the textures from the game and then apply them to each piece, so the textures you see in the render will not be there for a Rush Hour version. As far as the supports go, there are numerous intersections near me and elsewhere, where the supports for the flyover areas are slightly different than the support elsewhere on the highways length. This is done mainly for an architectural distinction. I think that if Red reskins this with the Rush Hour textures, then the columns will actually look quite good in the game. They are not incredibly complex, and will add a nice look if this thing gets to a working state.

Trolca,

I know what you mean in your post. I was simply referring to having a ground highway and an elevated highway intersect in the game, without any added network pieces. What I was referring to is that fact that there is no coded intersection for a ground highway and an elevated highway in the game, therefore there is no S3D model to replace for that type of intersection. I am well aware that I can create an intersection between the two in the manner that you describe (although the highways leading up to it need to both be the same, either elevated or ground), and in fact I am a step ahead of you. I have other versions of this in the works, becasue we are going to need them for SimMars. I need to finish the non-orthagonal intersection, that is the diagonals. For a orthagonal intersection that looks like and X rather than a + all I need to do is rotate the whole thing 45 degrees, and resize any pieces that extend beyond the 16 x 16 boundary that these things have to fit into. For the diagonal intersection, I need to rotate one road deck 45 degrees, and then refit the necessary ramps to contort to the new shape. That shouldn't be that big of a job though.

Ramp Size:

The width of the ramps are the width of one lane on the highway, and believe me, I have seen flyover ramps like this in real life, that are dangerously lacking in width. (several in Houston come to mind) They may look small, but you aren't used to seeing a highway lane in the game reduced to solely its own width.

As far as the questions that focus on a release date, well I have to say that I have no idea. It will probably take me two maybe three days to properly slice this up. It has to be exact, or the pieces won't look right. I have sliced up a bridge in one evening, but it wasn't a complex intersection that spanned 16 tiles square. So that is one hurdle, then I would need to refit the LOD's, and then render each piece. By looking at the picture of the overhead wireframe I am going to end up with a good 32 pieces and maybe more, so the whole LOD process and rendering proces will have to be as many times as their pieces. After that I will need to send them to someone who can reskin them and mod the S3D's. Don't forget having to mod the path files as well, that will take a considerable amount of time. After that, there will need to be some testing to see if it is correct. If everything works as it should (which it never does) then that would be the end of it. However, I am sure that a few problems will arise that may need to be fixed on my end, which could set it back another day or so, and who knows how many problems may show up. So I can honestly say that I have no idea. But I really want my Sims driving on this, so hopefully we can do it in a as short a time as possible.

And on a side note, a Railroad should never overpass a surface road, unless the surface road is sunk below grad, and the grad of the rail remains the same as it crosses the road. So I suggest to not waste any time on this, because just simple doesn't happen in the real world. I have never seen a rail overpass a road, and I have been to the dirtiest of industrial areas in Houston, Galveston, Texas City, and other spots around the Southeast Texas coast, and have NEVER seen this.

Whew, I think that is about it.

Thanks for your comment guys and gals, I appreciate it.

The Great Chozo

 

[Equinox 1,209]

Date:5/18/2004 9:50:59 PM
Author:ardecila

Ardecila's interchange #2:



Anyone interested?  I'm probably going to do it with an earth base.

quote>

I'm REALLY interested in that one!  The stack looks to me like a waste of space when you could be doing a lot more efficient things ... this however isn't so ... expanded.  I really like this and if you smooth it out, I will be using it a lot in my cities.